2018 Chevrolet Corvette To Sport A 6.2L DOHC V8

6 hours ago, ccap41 said:

What's funny is his beloved Mercedes barely even competes in the performance spectrum against GM's V Series or Z06.

ATS-V beats the C63 S and M3 in the 1/4 mile and to 150mph

ATS-V: 19.8sec to 150mph

C63 S: 23.7sec to 150mph 

M3: 23.3sec to 150mph

Comparo

Need another comparo?

'Nother Comparo

Still quickest, brakes the best, and "dusted" the M3 and C63 in their skidpad as well.

Good thing Mercedes is building a car that does 0-150 mph in under 10 seconds.  It may even do 0-150-0 in 10 seconds.  They may crack the 6 minute barrier on the Nurburgring, only one production car ever got under 7 minutes.  Then we can end the comparisons because it is game over.  

The AMG GT R does the Nurburgring in 7:10, that is faster than an Corvette, it is faster than the LF-A Nurburgring edition, so they have performance.  I didn't see any E63 S 0-60 times vs the M5 or CTS-V up there, perhaps because the E63 beats those cars.

7 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

And yet, they'll likely have to watch Chevrolet tail lights... so how does that help them?

I dunno, the Aventator is pretty fast, the LaFerrari does 0-150 mph in 9.8 seconds, it takes a 2016 Corvette Z06 17.9 seconds to get there.  

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Good thing Mercedes is building a car that does 0-150 mph in under 10 seconds.  It may even do 0-150-0 in 10 seconds.  They may crack the 6 minute barrier on the Nurburgring, only one production car ever got under 7 minutes.  Then we can end the comparisons because it is game over.  

The AMG GT R does the Nurburgring in 7:10, that is faster than an Corvette, it is faster than the LF-A Nurburgring edition, so they have performance.  I didn't see any E63 S 0-60 times vs the M5 or CTS-V up there, perhaps because the E63 beats those cars.

I dunno, the Aventator is pretty fast, 0-150 in 14.0 seconds, the LaFerrari does 0-150 mph in 9.8 seconds, it takes a 2016 Corvette Z06 17.9 seconds to get there.  

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Because 12 cylinders is better than 8.  The Lambos and Ferraris have them.

 Come on and stop trolling unless really are this ignorent? I will leave that choice up to you.

Majority of Ferraris sold are V8 and even the 12 cylinders are at or just over 5 liters and have pistons the size of a Briggs and Stratton engine. 

The trade mark of a Chevy and Corvette is the bore spacing. Even with the massive changes to the so called small block the one thing they did carry over is the spacing. The 6.2 dynamically works well at 90 degrees and with harmonics of this engine. It also leaves enough cylinder wall for super charging and or a turbo so if they choose. 

The Corvettes hallmark has been V8 power and the V8 sound and they will carry it as long as they are able even if they have to add a turbo, DOHC or a hybrid system at some point to keep it in the car. This is the same reason the super car makers are doing the same now. They are not doing it to attract tree huggers.

Usually when you see engines over 6 liters they are V12, with the exception of the GM pushrod V8, and some low volume Hellcat engines.  Most V8s today are 4.0 - 5.0 liters.  A 6.2 liter V6 is like making a 3.1 liter 4 cylinder, you just don't see it, four cylinders today are 1.5-2.4 liters for the most part.  

I think the V8 is perfect for the Corvette, I'd put a V6 base model in there too, as I have often said.  As I have also often said, is GM, mainly Cadillac, should have a sports car above the Corvette.  I would be totally fine with no Chevy having over 550 hp, and Cadillac having a 700 hp V12.  Cadillac should always have the performance benchmark of GM, Chevrolet is everyman's sports cars.  Nothing wrong with that either, Chevy doesn't try to make the Impala an S-class fighter, why does the Corvette have to be a Ferrari fighter?

I have a suspicion that this mid-engine car will be a Corvette branded car, but it will have an additional name while the existing car goes on as Stingray. 

47 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Because 12 cylinders is better than 8.  The Lambos and Ferraris have them.

Really? That's, one, a matter of opinion and both them are slowly moving away from those motors in the future and, two, see ccap41's post about Mercedes own issue by going V12 on cars that can't handle the motor. Third, who gives two $h!s if those two are using them? GM is clearly not going for that market nor do they need to.

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Usually when you see engines over 6 liters they are V12, with the exception of the GM pushrod V8, and some low volume Hellcat engines.  Most V8s today are 4.0 - 5.0 liters.  A 6.2 liter V6 is like making a 3.1 liter 4 cylinder, you just don't see it, four cylinders today are 1.5-2.4 liters for the most part.  

 

I think the V8 is perfect for the Corvette, I'd put a V6 base model in there too, as I have often said.  As I have also often said, is GM, mainly Cadillac, should have a sports car above the Corvette.  I would be totally fine with no Chevy having over 550 hp, and Cadillac having a 700 hp V12.  Cadillac should always have the performance benchmark of GM, Chevrolet is everyman's sports cars.  Nothing wrong with that either, Chevy doesn't try to make the Impala an S-class fighter, why does the Corvette have to be a Ferrari fighter?

A V6 in a Vette? Sorry but I just can't take that seriously in any way, shape or form SMK. That is beyond ignorant to say when you are also say that they need a V12 Cadillac (which they don't never mind the fact that where in the world would they get one since they have never even developed one).

And these cars you mention @smk4565 better be faster than a Vette, being that they cost three to ten times the money. DUH!

$1.4 million LaFerrari. You have to be kidding me even bringing that up.

53 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I have a suspicion that this mid-engine car will be a Corvette branded car, but it will have an additional name while the existing car goes on as Stingray. 

As long as there is a Chevrolet division in North America it will remain a Chevy branded car here. 

Now globally they could market it as a Corvette. It is much like the NSX was a Acura here but a Honda most other places.

The plan at one point was to keep the Stingray for about 3 years as they transition to less expensive mid evgine models later at around $70k. 

Now the other plan was to make the new platform flexible so it could support both front and mid. But I fully believe this was ruled out about 8 years ago.

A V6 was ruled as a possibility at some point in the future. Heck Mclaren is there now.

Cadillac will get a version but not till 2025 at the earliest. They have too many core products to get out before they worry about a very non core product. 

To be honest a open front engine roadster to replace the Stingray that would compete with BMW would better suit them. Also do it around $50k to make it more tempting to give it a try. The XLR was just too expensive to just give it a try and loose you shirt on resale. Just make a good open GT with a trunk for weekends up the coast.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Because 12 cylinders is better than 8.  The Lambos and Ferraris have them.

Corvette and Caddy have 8..  And in many cases..  Will F$#@ both of them up 

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Because 12 cylinders is better than 8.  The Lambos and Ferraris have them.

Give us some scientific evidence that makes them "better" because that's a realative term. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Good thing Mercedes is building a car that does 0-150 mph in under 10 seconds.  It may even do 0-150-0 in 10 seconds.  They may crack the 6 minute barrier on the Nurburgring, only one production car ever got under 7 minutes.  Then we can end the comparisons because it is game over.  

The AMG GT R does the Nurburgring in 7:10, that is faster than an Corvette, it is faster than the LF-A Nurburgring edition, so they have performance.  I didn't see any E63 S 0-60 times vs the M5 or CTS-V up there, perhaps because the E63 beats those cars.

Blah blah blah. All I read was "they don't have $h! yet to compete in the performance game with GM's V Series". 

I couldn't find a comparison when they were all driven on the same day. But you know damn well the CTS-V will destroy the E63 in everything but 0-60 because AWD. 

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

And these cars you mention @smk4565 better be faster than a Vette, being that they cost three to ten times the money. DUH!

 

$1.4 million LaFerrari. You have to be kidding me even bringing that up.

Yes. Its a ridiculous argument. 

C/D TEST RESULTS: Laferarri
Zero to 60 mph: 2.5 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 4.8 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 7.5 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 9.8 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 3.0 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 1.5 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 1.6 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 9.8 sec @ 150 mph
Top speed (mfr's est): 218 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 136 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia

C/D TEST RESULTS: Z06
Zero to 60 mph: 3.0 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 6.8 sec
Zero to 160 mph: 22.9 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 3.2 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 1.7 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 2.2 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.1 sec @ 127 mph
Top speed (C/D est): 185 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 128 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.19 g

The very idea that I'm making this comparison is absolutely ridiculous... Yes.. I just compared  a $1.4 million drive once, maybe twice a year car... to a vehicle that starts at $79K and can be driven every damn day and twice on Sunday... and the comparison.. wasn't that far fetched as one may think

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

And these cars you mention @smk4565 better be faster than a Vette, being that they cost three to ten times the money. DUH!

 

$1.4 million LaFerrari. You have to be kidding me even bringing that up.

Yes, which is why Cadillac should have a super car in the $200-300,000 range.    Corvette is not the car to go after the big boys.  At some point Cadillac's performance division can't be Chevy parts bin, just like Cadillac's crossovers shouldn't be Buick or GMC's parts bin.  Gotta elevate the brand at some point, otherwise no reason to have Cadillac if they are the same price point as Buick and GMC and Corvette.

The LaFerrari is going down in 2018.  Mercedes hyper car will be more powerful and weigh over 1,000 lbs less than the LaFerrai.   It will handle better, brake better, get better gas mileage, be more durable.  Ferrari at that point should just close up shop and retire the brand.

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The LaFerrari is going down in 2018.  Mercedes hyper car will be more powerful and weigh over 1,000 lbs less than the LaFerrai.   It will handle better, brake better, get better gas mileage, be more durable.  Ferrari at that point should just close up shop and retire the brand.

This might singularly be the least rational post in the history of C and G.

Best. Argument. Ever. 

"Wait till XXX comes out. It'll be the bestest."

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Best. Argument. Ever. 

"Wait till XXX comes out. It'll be the bestest."

But it will be, no road car has ever had a Formula 1 race cars powertrain in it.  How does anyone compete with the powertrain from a 3 consecutive world championship F1 car?

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Yes, which is why Cadillac should have a super car in the $200-300,000 range.    Corvette is not the car to go after the big boys.  At some point Cadillac's performance division can't be Chevy parts bin, just like Cadillac's crossovers shouldn't be Buick or GMC's parts bin.  Gotta elevate the brand at some point, otherwise no reason to have Cadillac if they are the same price point as Buick and GMC and Corvette.

$80k or $300k, it doesn't matter. It's still pure trolling and pointless to bring up a car that cost $1.4 million. Cadillac will move up just fine without having to rely on the sales of a few dozen $300k cars. 

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But it will be, no road car has ever had a Formula 1 race cars powertrain in it.  How does anyone compete with the powertrain from a 3 consecutive world championship F1 car?

And much like the overpriced Ferrari, 99.99999% of the people in the world willl simply now care because only sheiks will be driving them. Congrats. 

Can't wait to see a seven figure Mercedes hyper car sitting in the same lots as their $25K vans.

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Yes, which is why Cadillac should have a super car in the $200-300,000 range.    Corvette is not the car to go after the big boys.  At some point Cadillac's performance division can't be Chevy parts bin, just like Cadillac's crossovers shouldn't be Buick or GMC's parts bin.  Gotta elevate the brand at some point, otherwise no reason to have Cadillac if they are the same price point as Buick and GMC and Corvette.

Since it would seem these days that your Holier than Thou Benz is moving down market.. fighting for clientele in the "Nissan Sentra" (literally) segment.. are U planning on buying from the soon-to-be more prestigious brand (once again) of Cadillac ??? Brand new cars tho.. not the used hand me downs U currently get from Benz? 

7 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Can't wait to see a seven figure Mercedes hyper car sitting in the same lots as their $25K vans.

Oh damn.. U made my point before I read the last post

Mercedes doesn't sell a car for the price of a Nissan Sentra.

Audi has the R8, Porsche has 911, Pretty much every Aston, McLaren, Lamborghini and Ferrari are in that $150,000 or more sports car or super car territory.  Bentley and Rolls have luxury sedans, coupes convertibles, now even SUVs.  America isn't even trying. We think Corvette and Escalade are the end all be all, but they aren't even close to those other cars.  Although at least GM sort of tries, Ford, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai are hopeless when it comes to performance and luxury.

58 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes doesn't sell a car for the price of a Nissan Sentra.

Audi has the R8, Porsche has 911, Pretty much every Aston, McLaren, Lamborghini and Ferrari are in that $150,000 or more sports car or super car territory.  Bentley and Rolls have luxury sedans, coupes convertibles, now even SUVs.  America isn't even trying. We think Corvette and Escalade are the end all be all, but they aren't even close to those other cars.  Although at least GM sort of tries, Ford, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai are hopeless when it comes to performance and luxury.

Again, I say, wrong and big whoop. "GM sort of tries". Yeah GM "sort of" hands the ass of cars costing three and four times the money with their "sort of tries" Z06.

And Ford has the GT that has been killing the competition on the racing circuit so you're not even correct on that one either. 

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But it will be, no road car has ever had a Formula 1 race cars powertrain in it.  How does anyone compete with the powertrain from a 3 consecutive world championship F1 car?

Except the KERS system in the LaFerrari. And rules and regulations constantly changed in F1 that it is not the same engine. And if so, it'll be a 6cyl hyper car? Sounds badass.. I can't wait to pilot a car that needs 15,000rpm to move. Just kidding, I'd still prefer a GM 6.2 that has this thing called TORQUE. 

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes doesn't sell a car for the price of a Nissan Sentra.

Audi has the R8, Porsche has 911, Pretty much every Aston, McLaren, Lamborghini and Ferrari are in that $150,000 or more sports car or super car territory.  Bentley and Rolls have luxury sedans, coupes convertibles, now even SUVs.  America isn't even trying. We think Corvette and Escalade are the end all be all, but they aren't even close to those other cars.  Although at least GM sort of tries, Ford, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai are hopeless when it comes to performance and luxury.

Are any of those companies other than Porsche, Audi, and Mercedes making any money? They can't sustain what they're doing if they don't change because of CAFE. 

Ford GT? Not trying? It'll run circles around anything on any Mercedes lot. 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Except the KERS system in the LaFerrari. And rules and regulations constantly changed in F1 that it is not the same engine. And if so, it'll be a 6cyl hyper car? Sounds badass.. I can't wait to pilot a car that needs 15,000rpm to move. Just kidding, I'd still prefer a GM 6.2 that has this thing called TORQUE. 

The LaFerrari has their standard V12 cranked up to rev higher with KERS added on.  It has virtually nothing from F1 on their car other than the KERS system.  An F1 car would destroy a LaFerrari, they have as much power and less than half the weight and more downforce and traction.

 Mercedes is taking the 1.6 liter bi-turbo V6, MGU-K and MGU-H energy recovery systems, batteries and electric motors, the whole deal off the F1 car putting it in a road car that is 1,000 lbs lighter than a LaFerrari.  It will be bad ass for sure.  

And how much torque does this GM 6.2 liter V8 make if it is naturally aspirated?  GM's other DOHC NA engines don't make a lot of torque and most make peak torque around 5,000 rpm or more.   Given that GM has a 2 liter 4 and 3 liter V6 with turbos, I'd rather see them do a 4 liter turbo V8 and 6 liter turbo v12.  They already have the blocks and parts basically there, they can share all those parts for economies of scale.

41 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Are any of those companies other than Porsche, Audi, and Mercedes making any money? They can't sustain what they're doing if they don't change because of CAFE. 

Ford GT? Not trying? It'll run circles around anything on any Mercedes lot. 

Bentley is the #1 most profitable car company in the world, Porsche is #2, Audi isn't far behind them.  BMW-Rolls has a healthy margin, Lamborghini and Ferrari, also hugely profitable.  They actually all make a lot of money, and they all survive in Europe that has tougher emissions and fuel economy requirements than we do.  They will all push electrics and hybrids too, and at their price point can do it easily.  I think it is going to be harder for mainstream cars to hit CAFE than exotics.  You have Tesla selling electric cars with ease because it is toy for rich people.  You don't see an electric car taking on the Camry for $29,000 because it can't be done without losing massive amounts of money.

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Bentley is the #1 most profitable car company in the world, Porsche is #2, Audi isn't far behind them.  BMW-Rolls has a healthy margin, Lamborghini and Ferrari, also hugely profitable.  They actually all make a lot of money, and they all survive in Europe that has tougher emissions and fuel economy requirements than we do.  They will all push electrics and hybrids too, and at their price point can do it easily.  I think it is going to be harder for mainstream cars to hit CAFE than exotics.  You have Tesla selling electric cars with ease because it is toy for rich people.  You don't see an electric car taking on the Camry for $29,000 because it can't be done without losing massive amounts of money.

Actually the most profitable has been Porsche for quite a few years and all of your hyperbole and everything it entails still means squat because you were caught in a lie about both GM (what the Vette has done to much higher priced cars) and Ford (the fact that you forgot about the GT is just icing on the cake). 

You aslo have have no clue what kind of torque a DOHC 6.2L V8 is going to have. Given that the pushrod has plenty to spare, I think it's safe to say that the new one is going to surprise a lot of naysayers like yourself. 

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Bentley is the #1 most profitable car company in the world, Porsche is #2, Audi isn't far behind them.  BMW-Rolls has a healthy margin, Lamborghini and Ferrari, also hugely profitable.  They actually all make a lot of money, and they all survive in Europe that has tougher emissions and fuel economy requirements than we do.  They will all push electrics and hybrids too, and at their price point can do it easily.  I think it is going to be harder for mainstream cars to hit CAFE than exotics.  You have Tesla selling electric cars with ease because it is toy for rich people.  You don't see an electric car taking on the Camry for $29,000 because it can't be done without losing massive amounts of money.

The higher the price the easier low volume cars and engines become profitable. Also the Low volume is almost mandatory as you need to keep the exclusivity. Also these names have so much equity built in that they could build even a crappy version and make money as the Rolls BWM now is just a British trimmed BMW 7 series. 

As for the electrics yes it is easy for Tesla to do as they are doing. It is for anyone who can sell a car for much more than they have in it. 

But on the other hand the rest of the industry is forced to find a way to mainstream Electrics till they can support a industry base able to develop battery systems and other needed systems to make this all work. It is not so much the chicken and the egg as much as the farmer seeding the field so he can reap a harvest in the future. The farmer is not going to garner any income for the first 7 months but in the end he will reap the harvest and the rewards. 

In other words automakers are investing and it is because they have to. Even with Trump in now and a good change the regulations will see some change he may only be there for 4-8 years and it could change again and they need to be ready. 
 

You have idiots out there now ready to kill the ICE now all the while we do not have a legitimate replacement for them yet. I do not have a problem with people being green but do not bankrupt and unemploye the world or expect us all to ride bikes when we work 25 miles from work and there is not even a public trans port that could get me there in 2 hours. 

4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Actually the most profitable has been Porsche for quite a few years and all of your hyperbole and everything it entails still means squat because you were caught in a lie about both GM (what the Vette has done to much higher priced cars) and Ford (the fact that you forgot about the GT is just icing on the cake). 

 

You aslo have have no clue what kind of torque a DOHC 6.2L V8 is going to have. Given that the pushrod has plenty to spare, I think it's safe to say that the new one is going to surprise a lot of naysayers like yourself. 

Anything over $60K is very profitable as while development cost are high it cost so little more to develop a $75K car as a $20K car. Content makes up so little of the cost of the car it is the development cost that add to it. 

38 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Actually the most profitable has been Porsche for quite a few years and all of your hyperbole and everything it entails still means squat because you were caught in a lie about both GM (what the Vette has done to much higher priced cars) and Ford (the fact that you forgot about the GT is just icing on the cake). 

 

You aslo have have no clue what kind of torque a DOHC 6.2L V8 is going to have. Given that the pushrod has plenty to spare, I think it's safe to say that the new one is going to surprise a lot of naysayers like yourself. 

The Corvette is a great performance car and offers tremendous performance per dollar, it always has, and it always should.  But the Corvette should be a $50-95,000 car, sort of like Porsche Boxster/Cayman price, and I still think a lighter weight Corvette with a base V6 could be done at like $49k.  People praise the CT6 with a 2 liter 4, why couldn't the Corvette have a downsized engine and less front end weight too?  And it would keep it affordable, the hallmark of a Corvette.

I 100% support GM making a mid-engine super car or a $200k sports car but it shouldn't be a Corvette, it should be a Cadillac.  The Corvette is not a Ferrari, McLaren or Lamborghini fighter.  Ford GT in the 2004-2006 version was comparable to the Italian exotics in price and performance, but that was 10 years ago, and the new GT is really just so they can race it, they are going to sell a road version.  I give Ford credit for doing the GT, it is a good exotic car with a storied past.  But Ford isn't consistent, they have 3 years of GT production since 1970 and after that the Mustang is their only sports car, and Lincoln never had a performance car or CTS-V like product.

GM's 3.6 V6 isn't torque heavy, I don't see how an NA V8 will be any different.  No way will they get over 600 lb-ft of torque at under 2,500 rpm from an NA V8.    Can't be done without turbos.

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette is a great performance car and offers tremendous performance per dollar, it always has, and it always should.  But the Corvette should be a $50-95,000 car, sort of like Porsche Boxster/Cayman price, and I still think a lighter weight Corvette with a base V6 could be done at like $49k.  People praise the CT6 with a 2 liter 4, why couldn't the Corvette have a downsized engine and less front end weight too?  And it would keep it affordable, the hallmark of a Corvette.

 

I 100% support GM making a mid-engine super car or a $200k sports car but it shouldn't be a Corvette, it should be a Cadillac.  The Corvette is not a Ferrari, McLaren or Lamborghini fighter.  Ford GT in the 2004-2006 version was comparable to the Italian exotics in price and performance, but that was 10 years ago, and the new GT is really just so they can race it, they are going to sell a road version.  I give Ford credit for doing the GT, it is a good exotic car with a storied past.  But Ford isn't consistent, they have 3 years of GT production since 1970 and after that the Mustang is their only sports car, and Lincoln never had a performance car or CTS-V like product.

 

GM's 3.6 V6 isn't torque heavy, I don't see how an NA V8 will be any different.  No way will they get over 600 lb-ft of torque at under 2,500 rpm from an NA V8.    Can't be done without turbos.

Almost all of that is the exact opposite of what they will do and with goood reason, the biggest one being that there is no need for a V6 Vette when the Camaro is already sniffing at its heels with it's V8 models. Also, why you would bring up the 3.6L, I haven't the foggiest. It literally has nothing to do with the 6.2L DOHC because it is a totally different type of engine other than being DOHC. There are no other connections to be made there other than for trolling purposes. 

The only thing that I partially agree with you on is the Cadillac statement. They should have something in the six figure collumn but that does not mean that the Vette cannot occupy that territory as well, if done right of course. There will be a lot of companies, Benz included, that should be very worried if they do pull a $150+K Vette off.

I think we should look at whether or not the Corvette really beats cars costing way more, That has long been said, but isn't really true. 

Here are some 0-60 times, we'll skip the hyper cars like the Porsche 918:

Lamborghini Hurcan:    2.5 seconds

Audi R8 V10 Plus:        2.6 seconds

Lamborghini Aventator: 2.6 seconds

Tesla Model S:            2.6 seconds

Porsche 911 turbo     2.7 seconds

McLaren 650S/675LT: 2.7 seconds

Nissan GT-R:             2.7 seconds

Acura NSX:              2.7 seconds

Ferrari F12:              2.7 seconds

Ferrari 488:              2.9 seconds

Corvettte  Z07:        3.0 seconds

Mercedes-AMG GT S  3.0 seconds

And the same cars in 1/4 mile times:

McLaren 650S/675LT: 10.4 seconds

Lamborghini Aventator: 10.4 seconds

Porsche 911 turbo     10.5 seconds

Lamborghini Hurcan:    10.6 seconds

Audi R8 V10 Plus:        10.6 seconds

Ferrari 488:              10.6 seconds

Tesla Model S:            10.8 seconds

Nissan GT-R:             10.8 seconds

Acura NSX:              10.8 seconds

Ferrari F12:              10.8 seconds

Corvettte  Z07:        10.9 seconds

Mercedes-AMG GT S: 11.2 seconds

Nurburgring lap times I skipped the track cars like Gumpert and Radical:

Lamborghini Aventador:   6:59.7

Nissan GT-R Nismo:    7:08.7

Mercedes-AMG GT R  7:10.9

Dodge Viper ACR:   7:12.1

Lexus LFA:     7:14.6

Porsche 911 GT2 RS:  7:18

Corvette ZR1:   7:19.6 (with track tires)

Corvette ZR1: 7:26.4 (with stock tires)

Ferrari 488:  7:21

Lamborghini Hurcan 7:28

BMW M4 GTS 7:28

Audi R8 V10 Plus  7:32

The Corvette is definitely punching well above its price class, but it isn't beating the elites.  And you can't push the Corvette into the elite performance territory without really jacking up the price, which would just make the Corvette a $175,000 car that is as fast as other $200,000 cars. 

26 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

 

The only thing that I partially agree with you on is the Cadillac statement. They should have something in the six figure collumn but that does not mean that the Vette cannot occupy that territory as well, if done right of course. There will be a lot of companies, Benz included, that should be very worried if they do pull a $150+K Vette off.

Should Chevy make a $150,000 Caprice sedan to compete with Bentley too?   I don't get why Chevy is the brand to go into the exotic car price range, it just makes no sense.  They can make a $150k Corvette all they want, it won't have a Mercedes interior, Mercedes has nothing to fear from Chevy.  Mercedes even makes better commercial vans than Chevy.  

I still wonder how Cadillac is supposed to be "standard of the world" and compete with or beat the best in the world, but they can't even beat a Camaro  or Corvette in performance, and their flagship is a fancy Tahoe.  

Maybe Cadillac can use this 6.2 V8 in an Omega platform SUV above Escalade.

26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I think we should look at whether or not the Corvette really beats cars costing way more, That has long been said, but isn't really true. 

Here are some 0-60 times, we'll skip the hyper cars like the Porsche 918:

Lamborghini Hurcan:    2.5 seconds

Audi R8 V10 Plus:        2.6 seconds

Lamborghini Aventator: 2.6 seconds

Tesla Model S:            2.6 seconds

Porsche 911 turbo     2.7 seconds

McLaren 650S/675LT: 2.7 seconds

Nissan GT-R:             2.7 seconds

Acura NSX:              2.7 seconds

Ferrari F12:              2.7 seconds

Ferrari 488:              2.9 seconds

Corvettte  Z07:        3.0 seconds

Mercedes-AMG GT S  3.0 seconds

 

And the same cars in 1/4 mile times:

McLaren 650S/675LT: 10.4 seconds

Lamborghini Aventator: 10.4 seconds

Porsche 911 turbo     10.5 seconds

Lamborghini Hurcan:    10.6 seconds

Audi R8 V10 Plus:        10.6 seconds

Ferrari 488:              10.6 seconds

Tesla Model S:            10.8 seconds

Nissan GT-R:             10.8 seconds

Acura NSX:              10.8 seconds

Ferrari F12:              10.8 seconds

Corvettte  Z07:        10.9 seconds

Mercedes-AMG GT S: 11.2 seconds

 

Nurburgring lap times I skipped the track cars like Gumpert and Radical:

Lamborghini Aventador:   6:59.7

Nissan GT-R Nismo:    7:08.7

Mercedes-AMG GT R  7:10.9

Dodge Viper ACR:   7:12.1

Lexus LFA:     7:14.6

Porsche 911 GT2 RS:  7:18

Corvette ZR1:   7:19.6 (with track tires)

Corvette ZR1: 7:26.4 (with stock tires)

Ferrari 488:  7:21

Lamborghini Hurcan 7:28

BMW M4 GTS 7:28

Audi R8 V10 Plus  7:32

 

The Corvette is definitely punching well above its price class, but it isn't beating the elites.  And you can't push the Corvette into the elite performance territory without really jacking up the price, which would just make the Corvette a $175,000 car that is as fast as other $200,000 cars. 

 

You are putting words into people's mouths again regarding performance and price. No one said the Vette beats all but it does beat a sizeable portion (your cherry picking aside, like citing a four year old C6 ZR1 Vette which I'm sure the current Z06 can beat) and that has been the one and only point on that. As far as price, again I say, so what? The Vette is ready for the jump and there will be plenty of folks waiting to put their big money down on a mid-engine American monster that truly plays with the "big boys" (i.e. The overpriced crowd).

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Should Chevy make a $150,000 Caprice sedan to compete with Bentley too?   I don't get why Chevy is the brand to go into the exotic car price range, it just makes no sense.  They can make a $150k Corvette all they want, it won't have a Mercedes interior, Mercedes has nothing to fear from Chevy.  Mercedes even makes better commercial vans than Chevy.  

 

I still wonder how Cadillac is supposed to be "standard of the world" and compete with or beat the best in the world, but they can't even beat a Camaro  or Corvette in performance, and their flagship is a fancy Tahoe.  

Maybe Cadillac can use this 6.2 V8 in an Omega platform SUV above Escalade.

All points dismissed due to excessive bar moving. 15 yard penalty and a loss of down. Second penalty of 15 yards for yet another trolling "fancy Tahoe" remark, given that the "Fancy Tahoe" has been handing Benz it's ass in sales and comparos lately. If it is nothing more than a "fancy Tahoe", what does that say about the Benz that it beats (from the same company you claim that has nothing to fear)? 

And if we are going to use a four year old Vette time as a case study, can we also talk about the 4 year SLS AMG GT getting beat by a Camaro on the same course? If bar moving were a paying job, you could retire early SMK.

I couldn't find a confirmed lap time of a 2016 Z06, the fastest Corvette lap posted is the ZR1 time.  

I don't know about this big jump in price.  People thought the Cadillac CTS could move up in price, they rose the price $7,000 and sales tanked.  The rose the price of the Camaro, sales dropped (but I think other factors are at play there, namely new Mustang and shirking coupe market).  You can't push every product up market, you have to remember the market you serve.

21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I couldn't find a confirmed lap time of a 2016 Z06, the fastest Corvette lap posted is the ZR1 time.  

 

I don't know about this big jump in price.  People thought the Cadillac CTS could move up in price, they rose the price $7,000 and sales tanked.  The rose the price of the Camaro, sales dropped (but I think other factors are at play there, namely new Mustang and shirking coupe market).  You can't push every product up market, you have to remember the market you serve.

The CTS tanking sales is due to CUVs, just like every other sedan out there. This has been well discussed.

And I know the Z06 has not been tested there yet that didn't stop you from using a five year old Vette as an excuse to prove a point you still have yet to prove. Again, based on that logic, I guess MB should be ashamed that a Camaro beat their six figure (and then some) 2012 SLS AMG GT, while you say that MB has nothing to worry about from Chevy.

Some of the other cars on that Nurburgring list aren't 2016s either.  The GT-R was 3 years ago, the Viper and LFA did those times in 2011.  Unfortunately there isn't a race track out there that has the majority of cars tested on it to compare.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Some of the other cars on that Nurburgring list aren't 2016s either.  The GT-R was 3 years ago, the Viper and LFA did those times in 2011.  Unfortunately there isn't a race track out there that has the majority of cars tested on it to compare.

You, again, missed the point. You know good and well the new Z06 will best the ZR1s time yet it didn't stop you from using a five year car to support your argument. Sorry, but it proves nothing other than your ability to cherry pick. 

Time to get away from talk about ridiculous cars that have nothing to do with GMs 6.2L DOHC engine. 

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

You, again, missed the point. You know good and well the new Z06 will best the ZR1s time yet it didn't stop you from using a five year car to support your argument. Sorry, but it proves nothing other than your ability to cherry pick. 

It probably will be quicker, but they haven't logged a test of it yet.

But to be more fair, I found Red Bull Ring lap times all driven by The Stig, same driver for every car to be consistent.

Lamborghini Hurcan:  1:45.4

Nissan GT-R:     1:45.5

Ferrari 458 Speciale:  1:46.0  (no longer in production)

Mercedes AMG GT:  1:48.6

Corvette Z07:   1:49.1

Porsche Cayman GT4:  1:50.9

BMW i8:   1:57.7

The Z07 is fast, but it doesn't beat or dominate the $150k segment like some suggest and the Z07 is $100k itself.   The Z07 puts up performance close to those cars so it is still punching above it's weight so to speak, but to go against the class above this list like the 488, F12, Aventator and McLarens, GM needs a car above Corvette.  To be fair the Corvette does beat a Hurcan and GT-R by a couple tenths of a second on Willow Springs, a more favorable track for the Vette since it has less sharp corners.   

Interestingly enough the Cayman GT4 is cheaper than the Corvette Z07 so you can get performance per dollar value other places too.  And these are really the $100-200k sort of benchmark cars.  There is a whole $250-400k segment of cars, then a million dollar segment of cars above that.   And a $ 2.5 million segment above that with the Chiron and soon to be Mercedes F1 car and Aston Martin - Red Bull 01.

Where do they stop trying to push the Corvette?  Why can't it just be a $49,000-98,000 car and do that well and sell well like it does.  Make a Cadillac Cien that looks like a fighter jet if they want a super car.

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

It probably will be quicker, but they haven't logged a test of it yet.

But to be more fair, I found Red Bull Ring lap times all driven by The Stig, same driver for every car to be consistent.

Lamborghini Hurcan:  1:45.4

Nissan GT-R:     1:45.5

Ferrari 458 Speciale:  1:46.0  (no longer in production)

Mercedes AMG GT:  1:48.6

Corvette Z07:   1:49.1

Porsche Cayman GT4:  1:50.9

BMW i8:   1:57.7

The Z07 is fast, but it doesn't beat or dominate the $150k segment like some suggest and the Z07 is $100k itself.   The Z07 puts up performance close to those cars so it is still punching above it's weight so to speak, but to go against the class above this list like the 488, F12, Aventator and McLarens, GM needs a car above Corvette.  To be fair the Corvette does beat a Hurcan and GT-R by a couple tenths of a second on Willow Springs, a more favorable track for the Vette since it has less sharp corners.   

Interestingly enough the Cayman GT4 is cheaper than the Corvette Z07 so you can get performance per dollar value other places too.  And these are really the $100-200k sort of benchmark cars.  There is a whole $250-400k segment of cars, then a million dollar segment of cars above that.   And a $ 2.5 million segment above that with the Chiron and soon to be Mercedes F1 car and Aston Martin - Red Bull 01.

Where do they stop trying to push the Corvette?  Why can't it just be a $49,000-98,000 car and do that well and sell well like it does.  Make a Cadillac Cien that looks like a fighter jet if they want a super car.

Again, why should they worry about where to stop pushing the Vette? It should always be pushed because that's how it got to where it is today and it can do it without a V12, end of discussion. 

Oh and a Porsche Cayman GT4 starts at $85K, which is more expensive than every Vette save for the Z06, and it cannot hang with it either. 

Ok now that everyone has a wet leg from pissing on each other. Lets get some facts involved that answer many of these questions and get back to real arguments. 

One has to consider the entire background of the Corvette as to where it came from and why it is a Chevy today. 

The Corvette was conceived as a affordable sports car in the 50's and was not even fast to start. It picked up power and performance to save sales as it was not delivering the sales expected. Also the car did  make a good impression but people just wanted more. 

It was already at Chevy so they got the Chevy Small Block and they both grew in stature and fame as the years went by. 

One should note that most sports cars even really good sports cars do not last 5-10 years. Even some of the famed names over the years have large gaps in their history where they vanished for a decade or so. Find another 2 seat sports car that has lasted longer than a Corvette? The only one that comes close is the Miata or if you want to over look the back seat the 911. other than those cars no other model has lasted as long. 

The way the Corvette has remained alive is for one it became an Icon and that Icon status was tied to Chevy so many years ago it is damn difficult to remove today for several reasons. 

#1 Chevy will never give it up with out a bloody fight. It has been their car and they have been identified by it for more years than most of us have been alive. They will not just roll over giving it up. 

#2 Chevy wields more power at GM than any other brand. As I was told when the Corvette team worked to kill the Fiero "Chevy Sells more cars so Chevy gets more say on what happens" Johns Schinella quoted that to me. 

#3 Cadillac has never and I mean never been see as a sports car company. Sure they had several failed 2 seat cars but that is it. Cadillac first needs to get their house in order and learn how they can sell their core product of luxury vehicles be it cars or cross overs to the public and grow their segment. They do not have to be number one in sales they just need to grow sales and increase income to pad GM coffers. I just do not get so many think they have to dominate Benz and BMW in sales when it comes down to just making bigger profits in a very lucrative segment. Cars are sold differently in these segments. You do not have to be number one in volume to win just more profit per vehicle at a decent volume and grow it. Like in Trucks GM may come in second in sales at Chevy not counting GMC in their totals but that does not make Chevy any less profitable from the trucks. This is big picture stuff and too often the minds is too small to capture it. 

#4 Corvette could be sold as a brand overseas. Chevy is not well established in many parts and the Corvette could be tied to Opel, Holden and Vauxhall dealers globally. Chevy would approve of this as they would keep the name where it counts and add global sales to better help make a business case when ever they needed a new car. Yes even with Chevys influance the Corvette has to make a business case. They have come close to being closed down on the Vette several times including the early 90's when they were told to stop build the car and ignored GM on it. The manager pretty much cost him his job but today is looked at as the man who saved the Corvette today. 

#5 Moving ahead to keep the car relevant in the light of increased competition, tougher regulation and higher development cost. The car will have to change to meet these needs or become irrelevant as the Viper became with the little to no change they did. Yes they did a new model but it really was just an improved version of what they had built before but along the way they lost that show car like feeling to the car. 

The Hallmarks of the Corvette is such. 

#1 it even at today's price offers performance that few other cars can offer at 2-5 times the price. 

#2 The Corvette has hit icon status much like Harley Davidson. They have a global following even in places it was never sold new. Kids put up posters of it even though it still is not a Red Ferrari. It has never been a perfect car but for what you pay you get more than anyone else for the dollar. 

The fact is has used a engine that has been used in many other vehicles it has rendered a car that is somewhat Cheap to service and repair. Lets face it there is no 30K mile service like a Ferrari that can set you back close to $10K even on their cheapest models.

Also due to the volume of the car it lets the performance aftermarket make parts for it that no other car can touch in volume or price. 

The bottom line is the Corvette is a car that is unlike any other sports car in the world as it came to us under different circumstances and in a different way than most sports cars do. It was also a matter of luck and timing that many things happened as this is why many others have come gone and failed over the years. You just can copy what Chevy and GM did and expect it to work as this car is one of a kind. 

So you can keep coming up with your fraction of a second lap times and other data as it means nothing. This is about a once off model that never has been before or will happen again and it will fight to remain relevant and will remain a Chevy. The future will be a mix of it if ain't broke crossed with we need to change this to remain in the game. No need to blow this one up but there will be a need to continue to evolve the brand and model. 

As for other models use care as you can do more damage hanging the Corvette name on something that is not a Corvette and negate decades of status you have earned. Just ask Porsche about the 924. 

The Talk of a Corvette SUV disturbs me. Yes I know some others have done this like Porsche but Corvette is not Porsche. If you have to take that route take a Tahoe give it to the Corvette team and let them tune it to their liking. Then call it Tahoe Engineered by Team Corvette. That way if it works it works if it fails just kill it and sell normal Tahoe's.. 

It would take work to screw up the future of Corvette but it still could easily happen with the wrong choices. Right now they are in good hands and they will continue to live up to the image of being a sports car that delivers on performance worthy of cars much more expensive. 

In the past the Corvette was seen as a decent car with great performance. Today as Jeremy Clarkson said about the C7 it is now a great car with great performance. 

Now lets get back to something relevant to talk about. 

The Mercedes SL has been around 60 years, not a track car, but a 2 seat sports car.  Aston Martin DB series is over 50 years running, but the numbers change.  I am a fan of long time running consistent naming, The Corvette has that reputation for sure which is a strong suit.  I have always said that is a weakness of Cadillac because they rehash names all the time, they don't have a 50 year running model that is iconic.

The Corvette Z07 is $98,000, the ZR1 was $130,000 and these are the cars that compete with the the $130,000 AMG GT, or the $160,000 R8 or 911 Turbos, but they don't really have a Mercedes or Audi level interior or dealership experience either.  It isn't like the $58,000 base model Corvette is putting up performance numbers with the $150,000 sports cars.

If you look back to a early 2000s Corvette with the 5.7 and 4-speed auto, it ran 0-60 in about 5 seconds.  They could get sub 5 second 0-60 now with a 3.6 V6 and 8-speed given how little a V6 Vette would weigh and it would keep the "affordable" mission they often went for.   To me the Z06 at $98k should be the ultimate, because you don't really want to sell cars over $100k at a Chevy dealer, selling stuff over $75k is already a stretch.

Bringing it back to a 6.2 DOHC V8 mid engine car, now you are adding a more expensive engine to produce, plus you have to engineer it and aren't spreading development cost over 500,000 small block V8 tucks a year.  Then to design and engineer and mid-engine chassis with no economies of scale it going to be expensive.  They are going to end up with a $175,000 mid engine car that performs like a $200,000 Hurcan, but one will say Lamborghini on it, the other will say Chevy. 

Cadillac would be more profitable if they had halo cars and more image.  That is why all the best products GM develops should be Cadillacs, anything expensive should be Cadillac.   They should have the dealerships and sales and service infrastructure to handle selling $150,000 cars.

This is why VW doesn't make a $100,000 car, they tried a $75,000 car that was an epic fail.   But if VW wants to sell a super car, they have Porsche, Lamborghini, Audi, Bentley, all to do that, and Bugatti. 

50 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Mercedes SL has been around 60 years, not a track car, but a 2 seat sports car.  Aston Martin DB series is over 50 years running, but the numbers change.  I am a fan of long time running consistent naming, The Corvette has that reputation for sure which is a strong suit.  I have always said that is a weakness of Cadillac because they rehash names all the time, they don't have a 50 year running model that is iconic.

The Corvette Z07 is $98,000, the ZR1 was $130,000 and these are the cars that compete with the the $130,000 AMG GT, or the $160,000 R8 or 911 Turbos, but they don't really have a Mercedes or Audi level interior or dealership experience either.  It isn't like the $58,000 base model Corvette is putting up performance numbers with the $150,000 sports cars.

If you look back to a early 2000s Corvette with the 5.7 and 4-speed auto, it ran 0-60 in about 5 seconds.  They could get sub 5 second 0-60 now with a 3.6 V6 and 8-speed given how little a V6 Vette would weigh and it would keep the "affordable" mission they often went for.   To me the Z06 at $98k should be the ultimate, because you don't really want to sell cars over $100k at a Chevy dealer, selling stuff over $75k is already a stretch.

 

Bringing it back to a 6.2 DOHC V8 mid engine car, now you are adding a more expensive engine to produce, plus you have to engineer it and aren't spreading development cost over 500,000 small block V8 tucks a year.  Then to design and engineer and mid-engine chassis with no economies of scale it going to be expensive.  They are going to end up with a $175,000 mid engine car that performs like a $200,000 Hurcan, but one will say Lamborghini on it, the other will say Chevy. 

Cadillac would be more profitable if they had halo cars and more image.  That is why all the best products GM develops should be Cadillacs, anything expensive should be Cadillac.   They should have the dealerships and sales and service infrastructure to handle selling $150,000 cars.

This is why VW doesn't make a $100,000 car, they tried a $75,000 car that was an epic fail.   But if VW wants to sell a super car, they have Porsche, Lamborghini, Audi, Bentley, all to do that, and Bugatti. 

You can not compare a VW history to the history of the Corvette as there were special circumstances that have taken place over the years and the bonds would be difficult to break in North America today. 

Porsche did crease a sports car VW but they from the start put it in its own division and that lead to a much different path and set of circumstances for them to follow. 

As for the DOHC engine if it is for Chevy only it will be in the trucks or it will be sourced from the likes of Mercury Marine who already just happens to have a Chevy based converted DOHC engine for their boats already. 

So before you come up with a lot of convoluted BS lets let GM show us what they have and then we could intelligently debate the merits of the decision they have made. 

The continued look back and look forward and the what if or they could mean absolutely nothings and has basically strangled and real debate or real contemplation here. 

The bottom line is you build a compelling car and price it to where you get a hell of a lot for you money you will sell more than enough cars to make more than enough to cover the cost of the car and development regardless of the valve count. You add over 700 HP and call it a Corvette with Mid Engine and people will wait a months if not over a year to order one. 

The price point of this car gives them room to do much more than they have been doing and the development of this car has been just under 10 years so the cost have been spread out as this originally was a C7 when they started on it according to Lutz the man who delayed the change. 

To people this car is an Icon not just because of anyone thing but many things that mean much to many people. You could sell these at a Fiat Dealer yet people will continue to come in and buy them. 

I could safely wager that most buyers never give what dealer a second thought. Many even own more than one as I have friend with 1-10 Corvettes. I have even neighbors with 2-5. 

You make a Corvette a Cadillac you will see a major push back in and outside GM. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Now if you want to distribute them through Cadillac dealers once they return to Europe that would be fine but not in North America. 

Also if you have dealt with any of the prime Corvette dealers most are more than up to the task to deal with most things for the Corvette owner. Most smaller dealers never even sell one though a year and most go to the primary larger dealers. Even a few specialize with Corvette dealers with in their own Chevy dealership. One in NJ has really made a name for themselves Kerbeck. 

I was comparing VW to GM, as VW doesn't try to sell premium vehicles through VW brand anymore because they have luxury brands.  GM has luxury brands, use them for premium products.

As we talked about Corvette has a 60 year heritage as a front engine car.  If you make it mid-engine it isn't a Corvette, just like if you make the Porsche 911 front engine, it isn't a 911 anymore.

And I don't want Corvette to be a Cadillac, Corvette is a Chevy.  I want Cadillac to build a performance car above Corvette and the Corvette to continue being a mostly $50-80k sports car save for the special versions that hit near $100k.

And I agree that we don't know what they'll do with the new 6.2 DOHC V8, they might scale it out to GMC and Cadillac to cut costs, but I imagine that won't be a CAFE friendly engine, so I don't think it will be wide spread.  I still favor a 4.0 turbo V8 based on the 2.0 turbo 4, because they could share probably 75% of the parts among both engines and they already have scale with the 2.0.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

They are going to end up with a $175,000 mid engine car that performs like a $200,000 Hurcan, but one will say Lamborghini on it, the other will say Chevy.

Corvette hasn't had any "Chevrolet" badging on it in DECADES, maybe since the 1960s. It's a "Corvette" above and beyond all else.

Nice try saying a 'mid-engined Corvette isn't a Corvette', but it's not going to stick. 
You'd likely be saying 'a V8 Corvette isn't a Corvette' in 1955, were you around then. 

Cars evolve, Corvette is almost the poster child of that.

The Corvette has been front engine, rear drive and 2 seats since 1953.  It has had a pushrod V8 since 1955 (save for a couple years of ZR1 in the early 90s).  They used a 5.7 liter V8 from 1972 to 2005.  The Corvette is the poster child of sticking to the formula.  And it is a formula that works.

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette has been front engine, rear drive and 2 seats since 1953.  It has had a pushrod V8 since 1955 (save for a couple years of ZR1 in the early 90s).  They used a 5.7 liter V8 from 1972 to 2005.  The Corvette is the poster child of sticking to the formula.  And it is a formula that works.

No different than the ancient old G wagon from MB then!  

The M-B SL was not a track car?

You mean this one?

Or do you mean this one?

Because the latter was a tube framed race car turned into a gentleman's GT road car and the former was a gentleman's GT road car first and then was made into a race car...either way...the first and last editions of the SL were in fact race cars...

Im surprised you wanted to go with that argument SMK...

also...I have mentioned to you and then Hyper that Cadillac as NO racing heritage....it has dabbled in it once or twice in the beginning of the last  century and in this century they seem to have gone all out but in either century...not too successful....

But Mercedes Benz has a rich history...

I said this before and Hyper has backed me up....

SMK, Cadillac does not NEED a sports car or race car...M-B does...

Cadillac needs a V16 type car..

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette has been front engine, rear drive and 2 seats since 1953.  It has had a pushrod V8 since 1955 (save for a couple years of ZR1 in the early 90s).  They used a 5.7 liter V8 from 1972 to 2005.  The Corvette is the poster child of sticking to the formula.  And it is a formula that works.

Not quite accurate....

It was a roadster ONLY for the first 10 years of its life...

Then a coupe was introduced in its 2nd generation...

and in this generation...it was a sports car, a roadster and a MUSCLE CAR in its last years...

Then the 3rd generation happened...

It was a roadster, a sports car, a muscle car only to lose its roadster and muscle car ways half way in its life cycle only to become a fat disco car...

Then the 4rth gen happened when it returned to its sports car ways.. NO NOT ROADSTER WAYS...not in the beginning...the roadster came later...

Then the GT version also happened in its last days as a 4rth gen...

And ever since then...it has evolved into a BRAND, a RACE CAR, a FORMIDABLE GT car....to boot...its visionary father, Mr. Duntov, from as early as the C1 Vette, and unto the C2 Vette, HE WANTED THE VETTE TO BE MID-ENGINED....WAAAAAAAY BEFORE FERRUCCIO LAMBO and ENZO FERRARI DID THEIR SPORTS CARS MID-ENGINED....

22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette has been front engine, rear drive and 2 seats since 1953.  It has had a pushrod V8 since 1955 (save for a couple years of ZR1 in the early 90s).  They used a 5.7 liter V8 from 1972 to 2005.  The Corvette is the poster child of sticking to the formula.  And it is a formula that works.

The Datsun Z cars, RX7, MR2 X2, MG's, Alfa, Triumph, Austin, Jaguar and many more stuck to their formula and their models only lasted 5-10 years in many cases some even less.

Today it is even more important to keep raising the bar as if you remain the same and stagnate you will be history such as the present Viper that is now going out of production as a lost cause now.

Todays markets and sports cars are like a virus and it and to mutate and adapt to survive in this tough market. Those who play it safe die and fade into history.

What keeps the Miata relevent is the limited production and the fact it appeals to many women. The Vette has no such luxury as while some women like it they are a small percentage of buyers.

The Vette has relied on Baby Boomers and now that many are in their 60's and older the Corvette needs to find and appeal to younger and up coming buyers. These buyers are not generally brand loyal and can be drawn in if you make a compelling car to attract them.

You see the same crap going on in the bike market now. Harley has own the V twin market for decades. They were the poster bike for the V twin. The Asian companies made better bikes but they survived the assault.  The time has now come American makers Indian and Polaris are now in the game and both are taking sales from Harley. Harley is now working hard on new models to attract buyers that are no longer brand loyal. 

Poster childs fade from the limelight if they sit back and do not go to the market. You must go to where they are at not wait for them to come to you or you will fail..  

These young buyers in the Vette price range are now buying a wide range of things. In my parking lot at work I see everything from Lotus to Slingshots. The Sling Shot owner drives it daily from Erie Pa 2.5 hours to work in Ohio. Even in the rain. We have a good number of them moving to Cadillac ATS now as they are getting great buys and they are fun to drive. Then we also have are large groups of GTI and M cars along with a major group of Tuner cars that many have more in than a new Vette. 

One of the dumbest things to do is just sit back and keep doing the same thing in today's market. Things today are changing faster than ever and if you do not change with it you will be left behind posting post that show how out of touch one can be.