2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 Produces 650 Horsepower and Pound-Feet

Great news for Camaro fans... but I'm not sure if it means the Z06 won't be getting a few more hp as well. New hood, new cooling upgrades...

I am a true blue Chevy fan, but the Camaro is just too expensive.  People will always shop it against the Mustang and Challenger... not a BMW M4.  650 horsepower is NOTHING to sneeze at... but at what price?  A Mustang 5.0 can be had for $4-$6k less than Camaro SS with disciplined ordering... plus it is dead sexy.  The Camaro looks good, if a bit detached, closed in and emotionally unavailable, while the Mustang's been doing squats (dat ass tho!) and is not afraid to flaunt it.

GM's profit sheet would seem to indicate that the Camaro is pushing the envelope of affordability as opposed to tearing it. The weakest link in the Camaro chain price-wise is the 2SS, and even it offers a performance premium proportional to its price premium over the Mustang GT.

In fact, if the 1LE comes in at 60 grand I would make the argument that it is, by far, the best value per dollar proposition for ponycar fans. It will almost certainly match the power to weight of a Hellcat but with more tire and gears, and it has the goods to annihilate the GT350.

Except ya forgot that even true blue Chevy fans also place value on looks and among other things practicalities.

Now, both the GT350 and the 1LE will probably ride worse than a standard tune GT/SS, but the point being, performance value is one kind of value. There's many different kinds of values that together make a purchase.

I couldn't care anymore. A car that comes out 2 model years later should damn well be better than the competition. 

I am a true blue Chevy fan, but the Camaro is just too expensive.  People will always shop it against the Mustang and Challenger... not a BMW M4.  650 horsepower is NOTHING to sneeze at... but at what price?  A Mustang 5.0 can be had for $4-$6k less than Camaro SS with disciplined ordering... plus it is dead sexy.  The Camaro looks good, if a bit detached, closed in and emotionally unavailable, while the Mustang's been doing squats (dat ass tho!) and is not afraid to flaunt it.

I'll agree on the 'closed in' part since I just drove a Camaro SS convertible and felt like that even with the top down. I'm not sure about the other two since I felt the Camaro had slightly more emotion than the Mustang. Plus I feel more attached to the Camaro than Mustang.

Although if you were to ask me which car has the most emotion, I would put the Challenger on top.

650 hp doesn't make the back seat bigger, doesn't make the vehicle any easier to see out of or feel less bunker like.

the prices are a lot of what is killing the sales.

they really could reskin this car with a taller roof and thinner pillars and keep a look of say, the 69.

fantastic car.  Give it another 6 months, GM will or should adjust the pricing and packaging and get rebates going.

They'll probably get more profits off the special editions like this than v6's with a few options.  

Please.

Please.

Let us NOT complain about price.

THAT is the price you pay to play.

If not....a regular SS will have to do.

And if THAT price tag is too high, then a turbo 4 ecotec is the way to go.

Hey...that little 4 cylinder packs nearly 300 horsepower and as much torque.

A C4 Vette had wet dreams to have that much under the hood.

It took a 1992 LT1 Vette to eek out more power that this little turbo ecotec. (yes yes...1990 ZR1)

And please...the ORIGINAL 1969 Camaro ZL1 aluminium big block 427 also had a sky high price tag...

The 650/650 club.

Its a phoking nice club to be in....

Not to mention the handling characteristics of this beast. (and beast this is....in looks and in performance)

I saw my first Challenger Hellcat today.

I was full of glee.

If I ever come across ANY Camaro ZL1, be it an F-Body or Zeta or Alpha...I will probably shyte myself with glee as much as I had with the Hellcat today.

Why?

Because  tremendously V8 powered muscle car....that is why!!!

The sales may not be there...

Its because:

1. Its a coupe

2. It aint a SUV

3. Insurance kills these cars.

Same reasons why the Camaro died in 2002.

Hell, same reasons why all muscle cars died in 1974...

Except ya forgot that even true blue Chevy fans also place value on looks and among other things practicalities.

 

Now, both the GT350 and the 1LE will probably ride worse than a standard tune GT/SS, but the point being, performance value is one kind of value. There's many different kinds of values that together make a purchase.

 

I couldn't care anymore. A car that comes out 2 model years later should damn well be better than the competition.

I suspect the 1LE will ride better than any of them. MR shocks and all.

Your point about the newer car being better is not something you should take for granted. After all, let's not forget that the Alpha platform is actually OLDER than S550. Engineered to standard, not a price.

This is going to be one badass car! 

Except ya forgot that even true blue Chevy fans also place value on looks and among other things practicalities.

 

Now, both the GT350 and the 1LE will probably ride worse than a standard tune GT/SS, but the point being, performance value is one kind of value. There's many different kinds of values that together make a purchase.

 

I couldn't care anymore. A car that comes out 2 model years later should damn well be better than the competition.

FYI the 2017 GT350, which will be out soon, comes standard with MR Dampers.

It'll ride nicely.

Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you tomorrow, the SS has them toooooo-day...

As a 2017 model...

Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you tomorrow, the SS has them toooooo-day...

Like the ZL1 and 1LE

And unlike the SS and current GT350, the MR will be standard and not an option.

Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you tomorrow, the SS has them toooooo-day...

Yes. Tomorrow, tomorrow...

Like the ZL1 and 1LE

And unlike the SS, the MR will be standard and not an option.

On a near $50K car, it damn well better be standard. As it stands, you can get MRC cheaper on a 2SS than you will be able to get on the 2017 GT350.

And the SS will give the Shelby all it can handle at a far lower price point.

Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you tomorrow, the SS has them toooooo-day...

Yes. Tomorrow, tomorrow...

Like the ZL1 and 1LE

And unlike the SS, the MR will be standard and not an option.

On a near $50K car, it damn well better be standard. As it stands, you can get MRC cheaper on a 2SS than you will be able to get on the 2017 GT350.

Yes the MR should be standard equipment on 50k + cars like the GT350 and Corvette.

Nice to Ford rectify this.

Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you tomorrow, the SS has them toooooo-day...

Yes. Tomorrow, tomorrow...

Like the ZL1 and 1LE

And unlike the SS, the MR will be standard and not an option.

On a near $50K car, it damn well better be standard. As it stands, you can get MRC cheaper on a 2SS than you will be able to get on the 2017 GT350.

Yes the MR should be standard equipment on 50k + cars like the GT350 and Corvette.

Nice to Ford rectify this.

Of course Chevy gives it to you for $42K on the 2SS package.

Jesus.. And for 34K you get a V8 in a mustang.. how much further down are we going to go?

Jesus.. And for 34K you get a V8 in a mustang.. how much further down are we going to go?

Jesus yourself. Pay attention to what is actually being said. This was about cars equipped with MRC and the 2SS is the cheapest one out there with that.

Many kinds of value. Performance value. Aesthetics value. Space efficiency value. Fuel economy. Safety. And different people put different weights on those values.

Don't make this a big 2 middle finger thread guys.

Regardless of Mustang or Camaro, we all should be freaking happy with the performance war that has delivered such amazing beasts.

The next war will not be based on petro engines, but on pure electric. I am calling it here now and that we will see the next pony war to expand to include pony type auto;s from the asian rim and it will be pure EV baby. Everyone will want to have Insane Mode on their Electric AWD Pony car!

Jesus.. And for 34K you get a V8 in a mustang.. how much further down are we going to go?

If Bong, Surreal and Mr. Fordcosworth somehow look like this:

Then I wont mind any further Mustang versus Camaro pillow fights.

Ill let my fantasies run wild.

But Sadly...THIS is the reality of these Mustang versus Camaro Pillow Fights...

Jesus.. And for 34K you get a V8 in a mustang.. how much further down are we going to go?

 

If Bong, Surreal and Mr. Fordcosworth somehow look like this:

 

Then I wont mind any further Mustang versus Camaro pillow fights.

 

Ill let my fantasies run wild.

 

But Sadly...THIS is the reality of these Mustang versus Camaro Pillow Fights...

 

I merely gave the facts. No drama on my part and no skin off my back if some here have a problem with the facts.

Im just having fun, Surreal. No malice intended.

Like Samantha Fox once said:

Hello....Its me again... (I just came back from vacation)

I WANNA HAVE SOME FUN!

_{(Yes, I realize that she says that she wants to have fun with her body all nite long....WHAT A COINKYDINK??!!!!}

_{I WANNA HAVE FUN WITH HER BODY TOO...hence the pillow fight scenes)}

Im just having fun, Surreal. No malice intended.

Like Samantha Fox once said:

Hello....Its me again... (I just came back from vacation)

I WANNA HAVE SOME FUN!

_{(Yes, I realize that she says that she wants to have fun with her body all nite long....WHAT A COINKYDINK??!!!!}

_{I WANNA HAVE FUN WITH HER BODY TOO...hence the pillow fight scenes)}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB6b5puSpLw

Oh I know where you were going with it. No worries. Anything that gets a little eye candy on here is a bonus as well.

Like BB King once said:

Let the good times roll

Well..in the Camero's case (NOT A TYPO!!!)

Its more of this type of song more than anything else:

Yes yes...Bumblebee in its purest form below...I guess somebody diesel shamed him and he traded in his German armor for an American Shield...

His Nazi  Eagle for the American Bald Eagle

If the numbers are true, then the GT350R may have a short reign as top pony car. It is a comparo I certainly want to see regardless.

To the ZL1? Isn't that more of a GT500 type of car? Big muscle, little less track-like? 

The GT350/R is a track packish special like the former Boss and Z/28.

What I do not get is whether the GT500 is being delayed or that Ford wants the highest horsepower car to be the GT.

It matters not.

I think while there is much bravado and table stakes (because people bet money on this) over which of the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger are the superlative, the new META....I'm just fine as is with more Maliboobs, more Gillette Fusions and, well, more badass retro musclecar Doges.

To the ZL1? Isn't that more of a GT500 type of car? Big muscle, little less track-like?

It largely depends on curb weight and weight distribution. The GT350 weighs in around 3700 pounds. If the ZL1 weighs in at 3900-ish I'd say it's a legit comparo.

 

To the ZL1? Isn't that more of a GT500 type of car? Big muscle, little less track-like?

It largely depends on curb weight and weight distribution. The GT350 weighs in around 3700 pounds. If the ZL1 weighs in at 3900-ish I'd say it's a legit comparo.

Why would weight and distribution of said weight matter which car it compares to? Wouldn't it be more how the car is built and what it is built for? Like.. the GT350R is designed to be a road course car with relatively conservative power ratings and a flat plane crank(no low end tq) whereas the GT500's have been just gobs of power everywhere pretty much designed around a drag strip and cruising as opposed to staying flat over a set of switch-backs...like the last ZL1.

 

To the ZL1? Isn't that more of a GT500 type of car? Big muscle, little less track-like?

It largely depends on curb weight and weight distribution. The GT350 weighs in around 3700 pounds. If the ZL1 weighs in at 3900-ish I'd say it's a legit comparo.

 

*SIGH*

(Takes a deep breath)

OK....where do I begin?

I know!

Ill start at the first place you do...at an enthusiast automobile magazine website.

No. Not Motor Trend. They lost credibility with the whiny rant  they did last time something about Ford not giving them a Focus....WAH WAH WAH

OK...here goes:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a30205/the-2017-camaro-zl1-will-reportedly-officially-be-rated-at-650-hp-650-lb-ft/

From the little link above:

 

When Chevrolet announced the Camaro ZL1, we were just a little excited. The latest incarnation of the fastest Camaro was to have the LT4 supercharged V8 from the Corvette Z06, but with 640 horsepower and 640 lb-ft of torque. That's 10 less than the Z06 and on par with the Cadillac CTS-V.

Now, according to a leaked order guide posted on the Camaro 6 forums, we've found that the power ratings for the ZL1 will apparently be exactly the same as its Corvette brother. That means 650 horsepower and 650 lb-ft of torque.

That makes the ZL1 the opposite of the Shelby GT350. Of course, Ford is said to be working on a very fast GT500 and we know that Chevy is already working on a GT350-fighting Z/28, so the muscle cars wars won't be dying down anytime soon.

 

Sure....the GT350 and the ZL-1 could be compared together...but the professionals over at Road&Track are awaiting for the appropriate combatants to lace them up. 

And they seem to hint to us enthusiasts to focus on what the REAL good news is and not just the pillow fights:"the muscle cars wars won't be dying down anytime soon".

I about spat out my bbq ( avec Montreal Steak Spice    ) reading the opening to that above post

Even when Gen 5 ZL1 and Z/28 where production cars at the same time, it was the Z/28 that was dubbed " King of the Pony Cars ".

And that ZL1 would hand the Z/28 its breakfast everywhere but a road course.

Not picking a side on the comparo argument but what exactly makes one publication an "expert" over another?

The 2015 Z/28 and ZL1 have virtually identical 0-60 and 1/4 miles times and trap speeds (per road and track on both cars) so I'm not sure how a ZL1, which is heavier than the Z btw, would hand the Z it's breakfast anywhere, much less the track. The only real advantage, other than HP, of ZL1 is it much better riding on normal roads and easier to drive but that's about it.

The first mule for the supposed GT500 has been spotted.

What I thought was interesting is that the rear wheels were the carbon revolution CF wheels.

Wonder if that will help with burnouts, because less rotational inertia means REV city!

To the ZL1? Isn't that more of a GT500 type of car? Big muscle, little less track-like?

It largely depends on curb weight and weight distribution. The GT350 weighs in around 3700 pounds. If the ZL1 weighs in at 3900-ish I'd say it's a legit comparo.

 

Why would weight and distribution of said weight matter which car it compares to? Wouldn't it be more how the car is built and what it is built for? Like.. the GT350R is designed to be a road course car with relatively conservative power ratings and a flat plane crank(no low end tq) whereas the GT500's have been just gobs of power everywhere pretty much designed around a drag strip and cruising as opposed to staying flat over a set of switch-backs...like the last ZL1.

Nope. Not in this case, anyhow.

Consider: if the ZL1 rings in around, say, 60 large, it'll be right around the price of a loaded GT350.

If the ZL1 weighs in around, say, 3900 poinds, it'll be just a smidge heavier than a GT350.

The ZL1 will have MR shocks that allow you to tailor the ride to track or street.

And, most importantly, the ZL1 will have 115 more hp and about 200 more pound-feet of twist.

This is the great tragedy of the S550: it simply doesn't have the value-per-dollar of the Camaro. When your "track special" is in danger of being eclipsed by a midlevel Camaro, you probably will want to avert your eyes when a Camaro of equal price point drops.

Well Ford has a dilemma on their hands. They got caught short. 

The SS is a near match for their GT350 and I really do not think they expected that. Ford is working on a bigger and badder car but how much more will it cost? How much more will it weigh in. I know it will be a fine car but will it have enough to deal with the ZL1 or the soon to arrive Z/28?

Either way it will be interesting as both the Camaro and Mustrang are the best they ever have been. 

The one thing really hurting Ford is they have the Mustang on a platform that is only for one car. GM has the luxury where Chevy can take a platform worked up by Cadillac and their budget and make the needed changes and have a much more refined car. 

Sure the Camaro is a little more but in this day and age where a Fusion and Malibu can easily go over $35K what do you expect? Cars are just too damn expensive anyways. 

Besides Ford provides a great service with the Mustangs. Someone has to service the trailer park folks!.

Sorry I had to say something with everyone pissing on each others legs LOL! 

Seriously these are great cars and you had better enjoy both before the sound of these engines get replaced with some electric whine. 

And sadly Sergio is letting the Challenger wither away. Even the Alpha platform may not be enough by the time they get to it. 

 

That is definitely true that Ford did get caught with their pants down with the Alpha platform Camaro.

It was no secret that when GM announced that the next generation Camaro will be off of the small Cadillac ATS Alpha architecture that Ford engineers should hae realized that Cadillac engineers aint taking prisoners with BMW so why would a Camaro be less of a machine?

But...any unbiased car enthusiast knew this was going to happen...about how an Alpha Camaro would be a brute. A REAL sports car!

But...its not as if a Mustang GT350 cant put up a good fight?

The Camaro just way better. We all know.

The problem here with the pillow fights is that one CheersandGears member is still behaving like there are fanboys around.

There is no more childish trollish fanboys around.

This aint the former Motor Trend forums....

Wings is gone too...

But this C&G member INSISTS he keep posting like he is fighting a childish Ford versus Chevy war...

Why he chooses to do this is beyond comprehension.

Yes Yes.

Ford dropped the ball.

However.

The muscle car wars are not over yet.

Soon though.

For Dodge I fear.

The electrics will come eventually.

But the V8 story and great handling in Mustang and Camaro has only began to heat up again me thinks.

And its good for ALL OF US car guys...

No time to be just a Ford guy or just a Chevy.

We must love the blondes as much as the brunettes.

Here...a song about how I love my girls...and we could translate that to cars.

You have put the cart before the horse. Wings was a reaction to my action.

I genuinely believe that Ford is that messed up.

And until I see what I think is compelling evidence to the contrary, I will continue to be critical. Why on earth would I applaud mediocrity?

You have put the cart before the horse. Wings was a reaction to my action.

I genuinely believe that Ford is that messed up.

And until I see what I think is compelling evidence to the contrary, I will continue to be critical. Why on earth would I applaud mediocrity?

You are trolling...

Remember...

The Zeta Camaro in 2009 was full of mediocrity.

So was the Mustang in 2009.

But that was because there WAS NO CAMARO between the years of 2003 and 2008.

And Chevy had this

as a replacement Camaro.

That right there takes the cake for mediocrity...

So 'Bong, relax with the superlatives.

There was a time...when GM had nothing to be proud of

And yeah...excellence of execution in performance does NOT translate in sales for Camaro. _{(AS COMPARED TO MUSTANG SALES)}

That is because there is a lacking of excellence in execution in the aesthetics department.

Sex sells...

Too bad the Camaro needs a bag over its face...

650 hp doesn't make the back seat bigger, doesn't make the vehicle any easier to see out of or feel less bunker like.

 

the prices are a lot of what is killing the sales.

 

they really could reskin this car with a taller roof and thinner pillars and keep a look of say, the 69.

 

fantastic car.  Give it another 6 months, GM will or should adjust the pricing and packaging and get rebates going.

 

They'll probably get more profits off the special editions like this than v6's with a few options.  

Who the hell is buying a 650hp vehicle and worrying about the backseat size? U are tripping. Truly. I agree that the pricing on the models could certainly use a revision. Drop by about $2K

 

 

 

To the ZL1? Isn't that more of a GT500 type of car? Big muscle, little less track-like?

It largely depends on curb weight and weight distribution. The GT350 weighs in around 3700 pounds. If the ZL1 weighs in at 3900-ish I'd say it's a legit comparo.

 

 

Why would weight and distribution of said weight matter which car it compares to? Wouldn't it be more how the car is built and what it is built for? Like.. the GT350R is designed to be a road course car with relatively conservative power ratings and a flat plane crank(no low end tq) whereas the GT500's have been just gobs of power everywhere pretty much designed around a drag strip and cruising as opposed to staying flat over a set of switch-backs...like the last ZL1.

 

Nope. Not in this case, anyhow.

Consider: if the ZL1 rings in around, say, 60 large, it'll be right around the price of a loaded GT350.

If the ZL1 weighs in around, say, 3900 poinds, it'll be just a smidge heavier than a GT350.

The ZL1 will have MR shocks that allow you to tailor the ride to track or street.

And, most importantly, the ZL1 will have 115 more hp and about 200 more pound-feet of twist.

This is the great tragedy of the S550: it simply doesn't have the value-per-dollar of the Camaro. When your "track special" is in danger of being eclipsed by a midlevel Camaro, you probably will want to avert your eyes when a Camaro of equal price point drops.

Why does weight have anything to do with the comparison all of a sudden?  The Camaro will be lighter in every comparable trim because it's a lighter car now. So if you wanted to go by weights the(most likely) heavier GT500. Also, the GT350 has tested weighing 3790lbs. So for the ZL1 to be the lighter car(because the Camaro is a lighter car) it would have to match up to..you guessed it..the GT500!

Weights in order of lightest to heaviest:

Chevy:  SS, (next gen Z/28 or something of the like), ZL1

Ford: GT, GT350, GT500

Every serious performance car from these two will have super duper magnet shocks at this point. That's just where we are at now and it's great for us enthusiasts.

Power, weight, exactly my point in comparing it to a GT500 not a GT350. GT500 will be heavier and brute-ier..like the ZL1 is.

"The Mustang Shelby GT350 doesn’t compete directly with the ZL1—it’ll face off against the upcoming Camaro Z/28 track special"

"The mightiest Ford Mustang in the stable, the Shelby GT500, which will take aim at Chevrolet’s supercharged, 650-hp Camaro ZL1."

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2018-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-spy-photos-news

My 2 cents on these cars is that if you keep pushing the price up you lose the target buyer audience and the car isn't what it was.  The Camaro and Mustang of the 90s were priced like a family sedan almost.  Now $30k is about the start point unless you get these cars in rental spec, and they are ranging up to $60k or more.  Similar with the Corvette, it isn't as affordable as it used to be.

For die hard Camaro fans, a 650 hp car will will be awesome, but do Cadillac fans feel upset that their ATS-V is giving up 200 hp to a Chevy?  And I if the Camaro is now costing what a Corvette cost 10 years ago, is it still meeting the mission the Camaro?  Camaro and Mustang don't really appeal to me, but with the cost of these cars, plus insurance, they are pricing out the under 30 demographic.

My 2 cents on these cars is that if you keep pushing the price up you lose the target buyer audience and the car isn't what it was.  The Camaro and Mustang of the 90s were priced like a family sedan almost.  Now $30k is about the start point unless you get these cars in rental spec, and they are ranging up to $60k or more.  Similar with the Corvette, it isn't as affordable as it used to be.

 

For die hard Camaro fans, a 650 hp car will will be awesome, but do Cadillac fans feel upset that their ATS-V is giving up 200 hp to a Chevy?  And I if the Camaro is now costing what a Corvette cost 10 years ago, is it still meeting the mission the Camaro?  Camaro and Mustang don't really appeal to me, but with the cost of these cars, plus insurance, they are pricing out the under 30 demographic.

No. Because the Cadillac fans have a LT4 in the CTSV. Not only that.. The ATS-V is a car in and of itself. For your constant instigating questions I pose this.. f@#kin C63AMG or M3 fans have an issue that the ZL1 will have 200 more Hp than they?

My 2 cents on these cars is that if you keep pushing the price up you lose the target buyer audience and the car isn't what it was.  The Camaro and Mustang of the 90s were priced like a family sedan almost.  Now $30k is about the start point unless you get these cars in rental spec, and they are ranging up to $60k or more.  Similar with the Corvette, it isn't as affordable as it used to be.

 

For die hard Camaro fans, a 650 hp car will will be awesome, but do Cadillac fans feel upset that their ATS-V is giving up 200 hp to a Chevy?  And I if the Camaro is now costing what a Corvette cost 10 years ago, is it still meeting the mission the Camaro?  Camaro and Mustang don't really appeal to me, but with the cost of these cars, plus insurance, they are pricing out the under 30 demographic.

No. Because the Cadillac fans have a LT4 in the CTSV. Not only that.. The ATS-V is a car in and of itself. For your constant instigating questions I pose this.. f@#kin C63AMG or M3 fans have an issue that the ZL1 will have 200 more Hp than they?

But it's in a Chevy not a Cadillac is what he's getting at. Cadillac should be number 1 then Chevy number 2 not vise versa. I also doubt C63 or M4 fans care about anything Chevy because most likely their head is too far up their ass or nose too high in the air to notice.

My 2 cents on these cars is that if you keep pushing the price up you lose the target buyer audience and the car isn't what it was. The Camaro and Mustang of the 90s were priced like a family sedan almost. Now $30k is about the start point unless you get these cars in rental spec, and they are ranging up to $60k or more. Similar with the Corvette, it isn't as affordable as it used to be. For die hard Camaro fans, a 650 hp car will will be awesome, but do Cadillac fans feel upset that their ATS-V is giving up 200 hp to a Chevy? And I if the Camaro is now costing what a Corvette cost 10 years ago, is it still meeting the mission the Camaro? Camaro and Mustang don't really appeal to me, but with the cost of these cars, plus insurance, they are pricing out the under 30 demographic.

No. Because the Cadillac fans have a LT4 in the CTSV. Not only that.. The ATS-V is a car in and of itself. For your constant instigating questions I pose this.. f@#kin C63AMG or M3 fans have an issue that the ZL1 will have 200 more Hp than they?

But it's in a Chevy not a Cadillac is what he's getting at. Cadillac should be number 1 then Chevy number 2 not vise versa. I also doubt C63 or M4 fans care about anything Chevy because most likely their head is too far up their ass or nose too high in the air to notice.

Then you're both missing the point. The ATS-V still has the luxury quotient that the Camaro will never have and a more usable cabin. That is what most Caddy buyers are concerned with and I don't think any of them are complaining about the performance of them unless someone here can show evidence to the contrary. SMK is, yet again, trying to create a negative scenario that only he is concerned about and only brings up because it's not a Benz we are talking about.

My 2 cents on these cars is that if you keep pushing the price up you lose the target buyer audience and the car isn't what it was.  The Camaro and Mustang of the 90s were priced like a family sedan almost.  Now $30k is about the start point unless you get these cars in rental spec, and they are ranging up to $60k or more.  Similar with the Corvette, it isn't as affordable as it used to be.

 

For die hard Camaro fans, a 650 hp car will will be awesome, but do Cadillac fans feel upset that their ATS-V is giving up 200 hp to a Chevy?  And I if the Camaro is now costing what a Corvette cost 10 years ago, is it still meeting the mission the Camaro?  Camaro and Mustang don't really appeal to me, but with the cost of these cars, plus insurance, they are pricing out the under 30 demographic.

No. Because the Cadillac fans have a LT4 in the CTSV. Not only that.. The ATS-V is a car in and of itself. For your constant instigating questions I pose this.. f@#kin C63AMG or M3 fans have an issue that the ZL1 will have 200 more Hp than they?

ATS and Camaro are closely related though, and while most ATS-v buyers probably don't care if it had 450 or 650 HP, there is the question of why any Camaro is more expensive than a V-series Cadillac, when Cadillac is GM's fop dog.

They could put 1,000 hp in a Camaro and a BMW driver won't buy it because it says Chevy on it. But that goes back to my original point of Chevy being the value brand, having a value sports car, but they are moving away from that.

The mid-engine Corvette I bet will cost over $125,000. How is that the every man's sports car, it will just turn into an Audi R8 which most Corvette fans think is a ripoff.

I am all for a mid engine supercar at GM but it should wear a wreath and crest (yes bring the wreath back) and not a Chevy badge.