2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV To Start At $37,495

31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I think 300 mile range is plenty to quell any range anxieties and people can charge at home.  They don't need charging stations in mass when you have EV's with enough range for 6-8 hours of driving.   The EV marketers need to push the convenience of EV driving.  They should be selling it as look how much time you can save by not going to a gas station every week.  You can pull into your garage and plug it in, like you plug in your cell phone to charge over night.  Simple.

 

If you look at all the EVs on that list above and look at the price, there in lies the problem.  Focus, Leaf, Golf are all $20,000 cars that are $30,000+ in electric form.  Too much money for a compact car.   A vehicle like the Bolt needs to be $27,500 before incentives before electric goes mainstream.   

You missed the point there. I posted that to illustrate that the Bolt is a far better value than those others due to having a much larger EV range and it was built from the ground up as an EV and not a horribly modified compact car that was never intended for such use. 

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

 

Of course U weren't saying anything like this when the Focus EV first showed up.. Dude.. EV is the way of the future.. Its inevitable even if its eventually off the grid and charged up via the Sun. We are dinosaurs in the making... and the kids these days would rather sit in a chair and simulate driving than get out to the real track. Not all.. but a vast majority and growing. Having the ability to drive an emission free, non-gas using vehicle that doesn't require the type of maintenance a combustible engine requires has to be the end all be all. In terms of range... in just 6 years we have gone from 83 all EV miles to 240 in the mainstream... for under $35K. $h! is only gonna continue to improve.. and I'm betting on 400 Miles by 2020, or just 3 years away. At that point... range anxiety is dead.. or at least put on serious hold. Once they have a real EV Charging infrastructure available then we are looking at a true migration over to the tech. 

The problem exists as long as 168,000 gas stations are available vs 9,758 electric charging stations. The problem further extends when one realized that 5 cars can fill-up with gas by the time one Tesla, for example, can be half charged in 20 minutes. Talk about exacerbation. What that does is essentially reduce the availability of those charging stations down to 1951 at a given time waiting for the charge to get there.

It takes a complete infrastructural change to make EVs work for mainstream. It must be available and as easy as twisting the cap, squeezing the handle and hanging it back up in less than 5 minutes. I won't even get into the fact that the oil companies finally have awoken... and gas prices are as low at $2.20

LET ME SCREAM:

Ive been saying THAT for the longest time:

"Having the ability to drive an emission free, non-gas using vehicle that doesn't require the type of maintenance a combustible engine requires has to be the end all be all. In terms of range... in just 6 years we have gone from 83 all EV miles to 240 in the mainstream... for under $35K. $h! is only gonna continue to improve.. and I'm betting on 400 Miles by 2020, or just 3 years away. At that point... range anxiety is dead.. or at least put on serious hold. Once they have a real EV Charging infrastructure available then we are looking at a true migration over to the tech. 

The problem exists as long as 168,000 gas stations are available vs 9,758 electric charging stations."

As far as waiting in line for charge times and not enough of charge stations exists and reports of Tesla owners or even Leaf and Volt owners abusing the system leaving their cars to charge all day long...we act as though gasoline powered cars never had this problem....even with 168 000 gas stations across the land...

I promise you folk, this is REALLY the last time I post at Cheers and Gears...(I read to get info) but Ill stop giving my opinion as it means nothing to some of you...times a-wasted on my end...

casa,

I have been hard on all BEV's since day one, including Ford.  I dare you to prove otherwise.

We are all celebrating over 200 miles or range, when gas cars costing $10K less can triple that these days.  You can literally gas up every 2 weeks, and not be bothered by plugging in all the time.

Or,

you can really increase your range, get even better fuel economy and gas up like once a month with a PHEV that still costs plenty less than a BEV, and without the range anxiety and compromise on your driving style that locks you into the slow lane.

And I will repeat this for all brands, until BEV is priced where it belongs, below gas engine cars.

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

You missed the point there. I posted that to illustrate that the Bolt is a far better value than those others due to having a much larger EV range and it was built from the ground up as an EV and not a horribly modified compact car that was never intended for such use. 

It is better value than those other cars for sure, but no one buys those other cars.  Question is if the Bolt better than a Camry that costs $10,000 less and have more room, and features and better interior?  Or is the Bolt better than an Equinox or Escape that have more room and are $10,000 less.   You have to convince people to buy a Bolt, I don't think just because it is electric is a reason that a massive amount of people will buy it.  If the Bolt and Malibu were priced identical, I think the Malibu would still out sell it.

EV gets mainstream when it is better than the gas car at equal money.

The main point has everything to do with range, and how this is very sufficient for the vast majority of people.

I'm pretty sure the sweet spot for someone looking to own a car is probably still a hybrid, but the Bolt is still even more practical to a midsize hybrid sedan.

6 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Only one of these has a range of more than 120 miles (and in fact double that range). 

 

Mirai has like a 300-ish mile range 

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

casa,

I have been hard on all BEV's since day one, including Ford.  I dare you to prove otherwise.

We are all celebrating over 200 miles or range, when gas cars costing $10K less can triple that these days.  You can literally gas up every 2 weeks, and not be bothered by plugging in all the time.

 

Or,

you can really increase your range, get even better fuel economy and gas up like once a month with a PHEV that still costs plenty less than a BEV, and without the range anxiety and compromise on your driving style that locks you into the slow lane.

 

And I will repeat this for all brands, until BEV is priced where it belongs, below gas engine cars

I plug my cell phone in every night, why not my car?  Pull it in the garage, plug it in, done. Far more convenient than waiting in line for the Costco pumps.

I've even switched to an electric lawn mower this year after I got tired of the constant need for repairs on my Toro.  I had an electric in storage that was given to me when my father in law sold his house.  Sure I have to go through the "inconvenience" of plugging it in, but it doesn't smell, there is no exhaust, it's lighter so I don't even miss the self propelled feature, and it's not breaking on me constantly.

I changed over from a gas lawn mower to an EGO lawn mower, blower and weed wacker. Bought the 3 pack and love how quiet and emission free they are over the gas powered items.

EGO Power Plus

56V powered equipment that allows you to get your yard work done easier and noise free just about with no need for ear plugs like gas powered devices.

RANG Anxiety Peeps

The FUTURE is here now. The following companies, Blink, ABB's just installed the first 150KWh Fast chargers at Europe gas stations. People can go in including tesla and fill up any size battery pack in 15-30 min depending on the capacity and yes these chargers do take into account Tesla's newest 100KWh battery pack.

As long as the EV supports the maximum KWh, they will get these charges. Now BOLT is stated to get software updates over their WIFI system just like TESLA does and TESLA has updated all their cars to handle faster chargers.

It is only a matter of time that gas stations install these fast chargers and people then stop by a station to fill up their battery, grab a drink and go.

Some great information on batteries, chargers and the future are here in this multipart series about the technology.

Part 1

What is Fast Charging?

Part 2 

How does fast charging work?

Part 3

The future of fast charging!

Part 4 

Fast charging capacity and economies of Scale.

Based on the 4 part series above, it is very REAL and Possible that by 2020 we will have 4 min Fast chargers that will make the petro auto a dinosaur!

DO NOT FEAR CHANGE BUT EMBRACE IT!  

2 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

The main point has everything to do with range, and how this is very sufficient for the vast majority of people.

 

I'm pretty sure the sweet spot for someone looking to own a car is probably still a hybrid, but the Bolt is still even more practical to a midsize hybrid sedan.

Mirai has like a 300-ish mile range 

And double the price with the same ugly as a Prius.  Oh and it runs on hydrogen power. 

I love how some folks think their ONE case scenario fits most when it is only certain that it fits them. Betting more people will find great uses for these cars regardless of the misinformation and discrediting being perpetrated by one person here. Bitch about the price all they want but it is a hell of a lot cheaper now than even five years ago to own a proper EV and it will get cheaper. 

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I plug my cell phone in every night, why not my car?  Pull it in the garage, plug it in, done. Far more convenient than waiting in line for the Costco pumps.

I've even switched to an electric lawn mower this year after I got tired of the constant need for repairs on my Toro.  I had an electric in storage that was given to me when my father in law sold his house.  Sure I have to go through the "inconvenience" of plugging it in, but it doesn't smell, there is no exhaust, it's lighter so I don't even miss the self propelled feature, and it's not breaking on me constantly.

And with 258 miles of range, most owners would not have to plug every night as he is trying to insulate here. For me, I could go two weeks and two more days before I'd even have to charge the Bolt. The argument is just null for most folks like myself. 

dfelt,

petrol engines are going nowhere fast.  Reason:  Regardless of how quick one can charge, EV still can't tow, haul, work, and give you range like a gas engine.  Factor in the heavy price, and fewer still will be interested, just as they are today.

Also, as EV gains traction with faster charging, better batteries, etc.....the same will happen with  hybrids and PHEV.  60 mpg hybrids are about 1.5 year away from automakers.  PHEV's that will see well over 100mpg, maybe close to 150mpg, and will be out soon as welll, and will also benefit  from les IC engine use.  So one could have a PHEV with a small near zero emission gas engine for less money than a BEV, continue to plug in daily (or not) with longer EV range, get a massive amount of range per tankful and absolutely zero range anxiety, and not have your driving style compromised.  And did I mention for less money?

The only thing that will happen in the next decade, is a much larger proliferation of all of the above. So instead of barely any sales, we will start seeing 5-10% of sales. That's about it.  

I don't think anyone is claiming that the ICE will be going away in 10 years. What is being said is that there is now an EV within the affordability range and recharging range that would suit 95% of non-commercial drivers.

Note, I'm not saying the Bolt will suit them... I'm saying 238 miles if range at $37k will suit them.  Chevy has raised the bar on the segment and I expect other manufacturers to be catching up very soon. 

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I don't think anyone is claiming that the ICE will be going away in 10 years. What is being said is that there is now an EV within the affordability range and recharging range that would suit 95% of non-commercial drivers.

 

Note, I'm not saying the Bolt will suit them... I'm saying 238 miles if range at $37k will suit them.  Chevy has raised the bar on the segment and I expect other manufacturers to be catching up very soon. 

This, because that is what I was getting at. For most Americans (especially in urban and large metro areas), a long range EV is going to be the defacto choice for daily driving. Mark my words. 

drew,

actually dfelt did suggest the end of ICE, that is who I replied to, fully realizing he was probably half serious.  And as I have said, the Bolt is impressive, especially in roominess and it's more CUV-ish image.  That fact alone might have it stand above the modest selling and cheaper Volt.  Time will tell.

But, as I have also stated very clearly, until prices come down, BEV will be a touch sell against ICE and all it's benefits.

That doesn't change the fact that you are ignoring a lot of obvious evidence that EVs will become more and more prominent over the next decade and as the range increases, more and more people will see the advantages of EVs over ICE for everyday use. Examples have already been given as to why this is so. 

Range isn't the problem it is price.  When the car makers find a way to get price down the EVs will take off.  

25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Range isn't the problem it is price.  When the car makers find a way to get price down the EVs will take off.  

The prices are already coming down. Just compare range/price five years ago to range/price now. It's not a debatable point IMO. The prices are going down and the ranges are going up. It's pretty obvious where it's heading. 

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Range isn't the problem it is price.  When the car makers find a way to get price down the EVs will take off.  

Yup.

But I think prices are not coming down much, if at all, due to larger battery packs to get the range up.  Spark EV is a fraction of the price, although smaller sure and less range.  I would much rather see prices come down significantly for the Bolt, rather than range go up. If the Bolt sold for $10K less due to a smaller battery, and perhaps a 150 mile range, I think that would be a better value for most folk and I think sales could be much better.  Most people would not need half of that range on a daily basis, and when they actually do need it, I don't think having 88 miles more range would matter on a 1000 mile trip.  And really, most people who would get an EV would be adding it as a 2nd or 3rd car anyway.  So why far more and carry around a bigger battery for what would be a minimal benefit, if not rarely used anyway.

All I know is this. The Bolt is the best EV deal out there right now and will lead to even longer ranges and better prices if it can succeed. Others will follow its success, which benefits the customers with lower prices via more competition. Last time I checked, that was a good thing for the consumer. Choice. 

I don't think they need more range they need lower price.  Is the Bolt better than the 2018 Equinox?  The Equinox looks better, is larger, has more room, better interior.  There is a small percentage of people that will buy EV only, most are going to buy the best car for the money.   Bolt still costs too much to compete with gas cars, but the day is coming when the EVs will take over.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:I don't think they need more range they need lower price.  Is the Bolt better than the 2018 Equinox?  The Equinox looks better, is larger, has more room, better interior.  There is a small percentage of people that will buy EV only, most are going to buy the best car for the money.   Bolt still costs too much to compete with gas cars, but the day is coming when the EVs will take over.

Sorry but did you say that they DON'T need more range? Seriously?

I'm just going to walk way away from that one. 

On 9/24/2016 at 6:32 PM, Wings4Life said:

dfelt,

petrol engines are going nowhere fast.  Reason:  Regardless of how quick one can charge, EV still can't tow, haul, work, and give you range like a gas engine.  Factor in the heavy price, and fewer still will be interested, just as they are today.

So I want to focus on your first main point that is totally wrong. Can't Tow, Can't Haul, Can't work.

I covered this back on June 2nd

Electric Axles and the 4WD Ford F150 EV Pickup.

448HP

2,300 lbs feet of torque from a dead stop

ProTean Electric which builds in-wheel motors is actively reaching out to OEMs around the world about using their motors to offer EV products that loose nothing.

This design allowed them to take a 2009 Ford F150 Pickup and dump the existing powertrain, including driveline, heavy axle and create an 4WD Pickup without having to touch the existing handling characteristics by putting the battery pack in the exact center of the auto to keep the truck hauling and handling just like Ford Engineered it to be.

So they lost nothing in hauling, but gained big time in towing. This prototype they went with just a 100KWh battery pack so about 150 miles on a charge, but they could have gone bigger for longer range. Just as proven with the new EV buses that set a world record at 603 miles on a single charge. EV is going to radically change the way auto's are done and we will see a faster change to them than most people are willing to acknowledge right now.

12 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Yup.

But I think prices are not coming down much, if at all, due to larger battery packs to get the range up.  Spark EV is a fraction of the price, although smaller sure and less range.  I would much rather see prices come down significantly for the Bolt, rather than range go up. If the Bolt sold for $10K less due to a smaller battery, and perhaps a 150 mile range, I think that would be a better value for most folk and I think sales could be much better.  Most people would not need half of that range on a daily basis, and when they actually do need it, I don't think having 88 miles more range would matter on a 1000 mile trip.  And really, most people who would get an EV would be adding it as a 2nd or 3rd car anyway.  So why far more and carry around a bigger battery for what would be a minimal benefit, if not rarely used anyway.

Yet what you state is exactly what the public is telling the auto manufacturers, they want that 200-300 mile range in an EV. Sales of EV's with 100 to 150 miles did not ignite the market. BOLT at 238 miles and the Tesla 3 concept at 215+ is what has ignited the market.

People want less maintenance, they want simple to drive cars that are feature rich. Woman especially do not want to deal with dirty petro. Having an auto with 200+ miles of range, so you plug it in every 3-4 days just like you would fuel your petro car is what the public is asking for. GM was the first to deliver a mass market auto and with that, we will see it take off as I bet everyone of the BOLTs they build for 2017 will sell.

On 9/24/2016 at 6:44 PM, Suaviloquent said:

The main point has everything to do with range, and how this is very sufficient for the vast majority of people.

 

I'm pretty sure the sweet spot for someone looking to own a car is probably still a hybrid, but the Bolt is still even more practical to a midsize hybrid sedan.

Mirai has like a 300-ish mile range 

I think GM is very intelligent to stay with Electrics and hybrids.  The infrastructure will be a very long time coming, if ever, for Hydrogen cars.

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

So I want to focus on your first main point that is totally wrong. Can't Tow, Can't Haul, Can't work.

I covered this back on June 2nd

Electric Axles and the 4WD Ford F150 EV Pickup.

448HP

2,300 lbs feet of torque from a dead stop

ProTean Electric which builds in-wheel motors is actively reaching out to OEMs around the world about using their motors to offer EV products that loose nothing.

This design allowed them to take a 2009 Ford F150 Pickup and dump the existing powertrain, including driveline, heavy axle and create an 4WD Pickup without having to touch the existing handling characteristics by putting the battery pack in the exact center of the auto to keep the truck hauling and handling just like Ford Engineered it to be.

So they lost nothing in hauling, but gained big time in towing. This prototype they went with just a 100KWh battery pack so about 150 miles on a charge, but they could have gone bigger for longer range. Just as proven with the new EV buses that set a world record at 603 miles on a single charge. EV is going to radically change the way auto's are done and we will see a faster change to them than most people are willing to acknowledge right now.

Yet what you state is exactly what the public is telling the auto manufacturers, they want that 200-300 mile range in an EV. Sales of EV's with 100 to 150 miles did not ignite the market. BOLT at 238 miles and the Tesla 3 concept at 215+ is what has ignited the market.

People want less maintenance, they want simple to drive cars that are feature rich. Woman especially do not want to deal with dirty petro. Having an auto with 200+ miles of range, so you plug it in every 3-4 days just like you would fuel your petro car is what the public is asking for. GM was the first to deliver a mass market auto and with that, we will see it take off as I bet everyone of the BOLTs they build for 2017 will sell.

Home charging will make a big difference.  And yes to everything you just said.

dfelt,

EV trucks sound great, the way you are presenting it.  No gas to pump, no smell, saving the planet. It is only missing a unicorn as a hood ornament.

But the reality is, it would be very, very expensive and any brochure claims of range would drop drastically, when you actually put it to work, and oh btw, use your AC in the summer and heated seats and cabin in the winter.  People often tow long distance.  How many will want to load up their family, dog and camper and head to their vacation site, having to manage that trailer at every charging station, because their 150 mile brochure range plummets to 60 miles in July?  Won’t happen.  And it’s not like people can afford a 2^nd truck.  And did I mention  price? 

Ford and other manufacturers have electrified trucks in the works, and their time is nearly here, but I expect the same ultra-limited sales as currently, primarily used to prop up mileage quotas, and not fall behind. 

ICE is going nowhere fast. That much is a fact. 

30 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

dfelt,

 

EV trucks sound great, the way you are presenting it.  No gas to pump, no smell, saving the planet. It is only missing a unicorn as a hood ornament.

 

But the reality is, it would be very, very expensive and any brochure claims of range would drop drastically, when you actually put it to work, and oh btw, use your AC in the summer and heated seats and cabin in the winter.  People often tow long distance.  How many will want to load up their family, dog and camper and head to their vacation site, having to manage that trailer at every charging station, because their 150 mile brochure range plummets to 60 miles in July?  Won’t happen.  And it’s not like people can afford a 2^nd truck.  And did I mention  price? 

 

 

 

Ford and other manufacturers have electrified trucks in the works, and their time is nearly here, but I expect the same ultra-limited sales as currently, primarily used to prop up mileage quotas, and not fall behind. 

 

 

 

ICE is going nowhere fast. That much is a fact. 

 

Depends on use.  For things like delivery vehicles and short range hauling, electric would be ideal. It is not like you are going to haul a Bobcat for construction work, small floral deliveries, catered meals, short range auto parts deliveries,  or a small load of plumbing pipe from Columbus Ohio to Pittsburgh PA on a regular basis.  The ability to plug in at night, be ready to go in the morning, every morning, and never write a check at the end of the month for a giant fuel bill will become very compelling in about another generation or two of electric trucks.

AS far as ICE going nowhere fast, I fully expect ICE to be in use in 2065, one hundred years after my Birth.  It is just that I expect Electrical vehicles to make a big dent in that at some point.

Not to be a continuous cold shower on the EV fans, but there is another matter that gets over looked, installing the faster charger in your homes.  Tesla charger installed runs up to $2K, a quick Google search shows.  So figure that into your cost.

And another matter is that I keep hearing praise for no fuel costs, yet there is plenty of electric costs.  This article below is fairly recent and showed that charging a Tesla costs far more than what their pitch man is suggesting, which I assume applies to most EV’s as well.  In fact, it shows that during certain times of the year and depending on your states electric costs, it is actually more money to charge the Tesla.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2016/02/24/tesla-underestimates-how-much-it-costs-to-charge-a-model-s/#74dcbe6b45b9

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

So I want to focus on your first main point that is totally wrong. Can't Tow, Can't Haul, Can't work.

I covered this back on June 2nd

Electric Axles and the 4WD Ford F150 EV Pickup.

448HP

2,300 lbs feet of torque from a dead stop

ProTean Electric which builds in-wheel motors is actively reaching out to OEMs around the world about using their motors to offer EV products that loose nothing.

This design allowed them to take a 2009 Ford F150 Pickup and dump the existing powertrain, including driveline, heavy axle and create an 4WD Pickup without having to touch the existing handling characteristics by putting the battery pack in the exact center of the auto to keep the truck hauling and handling just like Ford Engineered it to be.

So they lost nothing in hauling, but gained big time in towing. This prototype they went with just a 100KWh battery pack so about 150 miles on a charge, but they could have gone bigger for longer range. Just as proven with the new EV buses that set a world record at 603 miles on a single charge. EV is going to radically change the way auto's are done and we will see a faster change to them than most people are willing to acknowledge right now.

Yet what you state is exactly what the public is telling the auto manufacturers, they want that 200-300 mile range in an EV. Sales of EV's with 100 to 150 miles did not ignite the market. BOLT at 238 miles and the Tesla 3 concept at 215+ is what has ignited the market.

People want less maintenance, they want simple to drive cars that are feature rich. Woman especially do not want to deal with dirty petro. Having an auto with 200+ miles of range, so you plug it in every 3-4 days just like you would fuel your petro car is what the public is asking for. GM was the first to deliver a mass market auto and with that, we will see it take off as I bet everyone of the BOLTs they build for 2017 will sell.

People who ignore new technology are destined to get left behind by that same technology when it becomes the defacto choice for the majority of folks. 

41 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

People who ignore new technology are destined to get left behind by that same technology when it becomes the defacto choice for the majority of folks. 

You mean like the untied States and high speed passenger rail service....

39 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

You mean like the untied States and high speed passenger rail service....

Now that you mention it, yes. We are woefully behind in the matters of mass transportation. 

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

 

 

Not to be a continuous cold shower on the EV fans, but there is another matter that gets over looked, installing the faster charger in your homes.  Tesla charger installed runs up to $2K, a quick Google search shows.  So figure that into your cost.

 

 

 

And another matter is that I keep hearing praise for no fuel costs, yet there is plenty of electric costs.  This article below is fairly recent and showed that charging a Tesla costs far more than what their pitch man is suggesting, which I assume applies to most EV’s as well.  In fact, it shows that during certain times of the year and depending on your states electric costs, it is actually more money to charge the Tesla.

 

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2016/02/24/tesla-underestimates-how-much-it-costs-to-charge-a-model-s/#74dcbe6b45b9

 

Depends on the rates.  But yes, people are factoring in the cost.  I have a state electrical license in Ohio. Could make a pretty dime hooking these up if i chose to.  But I am involved in a  couple of other things, getting back into autocrossing, woodworking, coaching collegiate debate, and spending time with my wife and teenage daughter.

51 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

You mean like the untied States and high speed passenger rail service....

Don’t get me started on our countries deliberate avoidance of a high speed transportation system that is praised and immensely beneficial in other countries.  Anyone who experienced one, knows how frustrating it is that we have no plans to implement one.

As for ‘ignoring technology and getting left behind’, that is a strange statement. GM and Ford are both going amp-ing up their electrification efforts in a huge way.  Nothing is being ignored, and everything is being considered. However, one can debate as to which strategy is best overall, for both the consumer and corporation.

4 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Don’t get me started on our countries deliberate avoidance of a high speed transportation system that is praised and immensely beneficial in other countries.  Anyone who experienced one, knows how frustrating it is that we have no plans to implement one.

 

 

 

As for ‘ignoring technology and getting left behind’, that is a strange statement. GM and Ford are both going amp-ing up their electrification efforts in a huge way.  Nothing is being ignored, and everything is being considered. However, one can debate as to which strategy is best overall, for both the consumer and corporation.

 

This is why I want a Cocktail approach...I love the tech in the Mirai Hydrogen car, I love Sky Active tech from Mazda, wish VW had walked through the front door with the diesel thing, think the new Prius and the new Volt are both on the right track, and for that matter I love that a new Impala gets 24 miles per gallon on the highway vs 11 like when I was a kid in the seventies.

And yes, having been to Europe and japan, we are so far behind in the rail thing...

1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

Don’t get me started on our countries deliberate avoidance of a high speed transportation system that is praised and immensely beneficial in other countries.  Anyone who experienced one, knows how frustrating it is that we have no plans to implement one.

 

 

 

As for ‘ignoring technology and getting left behind’, that is a strange statement. GM and Ford are both going amp-ing up their electrification efforts in a huge way.  Nothing is being ignored, and everything is being considered. However, one can debate as to which strategy is best overall, for both the consumer and corporation.

 

Maybe because I wasn't talking directly about companies ignoring the technology. I am speaking of individuals just for clarification.  

The Forbes article is also riddled with cherry picked data. Why would I compare a Tesla S against the average light duty truck, as Forbes is doing? Proper comparison would be to compare it against other cars in its class like the A8, 7 Series, and even the S Class. 

Just saying that data is horribly flawed. 

8 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

The Forbes article is also riddled with cherry picked data. Why would I compare a Tesla S against the average light duty truck, as Forbes is doing? Proper comparison would be to compare it against other cars in its class like the A8, 7 Series, and even the S Class. 

 

Just saying that data is horribly flawed. 

Also why would we use the mythical mpg of 22.4 on a truck compared to a mid size sedan that the Tesla S is. 

Yes, I know the truck makers are all marketing that their half ton trucks get low 20's for MPG and yet real world use proves they get much less.

The forbes story is just so pathetic, even when he tries to defend his info in the comment section, he still is cherry picking and then tries to defend himself that he is doing his part to protect the plant by driving a prius.

That whole story is just a joke.

33 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Also why would we use the mythical mpg of 22.4 on a truck compared to a mid size sedan that the Tesla S is. 

Yes, I know the truck makers are all marketing that their half ton trucks get low 20's for MPG and yet real world use proves they get much less.

The forbes story is just so pathetic, even when he tries to defend his info in the comment section, he still is cherry picking and then tries to defend himself that he is doing his part to protect the plant by driving a prius.

That whole story is just a joke.

He backed his claims quite well.

The take away point for me, was the range of variability to charge an EV vehicle, which appears to be anywhere from about 30% of normal fuel costs to actually more.  Now granted, this is for a Tesla, but any vehicle with similar mpg range of about 24 mpg can apply. Does not matter the class.  Most large sport sedans would be about that anyway.

And my main point again, is that once you factor in the HUGE up front cost of BEV and the charging system installation, you are paying far more to charge it than people think.  The Tesla range averaging ~$2 per 40 miles driven.  And most consumers will NEVER recover the capital they spent believing they are saving money.  And the well to wheel debate kind of kills the whole ‘saving the planet’ nonsense.  Is it cleaner overall? Maybe, probably, but don’t ask me to hug the same trees as you.

Except that they are comparing these numbers against a $100K Tesla when you have a 250 mile range/$37K Bolt to consider with Forbes numbers. Again, a lot of that data is severely cherry picked. 

Buyers of the Bolt will realistically be in the red if we're talking about actually saving money over a 5 year span and likely even extended out with the 10k price premium over a similar compact/economy car getting 40mpg+. $10,000 is a lot of money in gas. I believe this is what @Wings4Life was trying to say. Instead of making a range of 400 miles but still an unreasonable price jump make them cheaper but maintain their current range(I think 200 is a pretty magical number that a lot of consumers will see as a welcome sign and I don't think range below that would be too beneficial)

I love the technology, don't get me wrong. But they aren't actually saving anybody money quite yet.

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Maybe because I wasn't talking directly about companies ignoring the technology. I am speaking of individuals just for clarification.  

So in this thread where we are debating the benefits of EV, you are suggesting some here are simply 'ignoring this technology?'

that is even more confusing.  Nobody is ignoring anything that I can see, just healthy debating.  

11 hours ago, dfelt said:

 

 

@Wings4Life-It's called a simple opinion through observation over the last few months and continuing to see it on this thread. Knowing that, then it is clear that it is not just about what you are saying. Don't overdramatize it. 

4 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

He backed his claims quite well.

 

The take away point for me, was the range of variability to charge an EV vehicle, which appears to be anywhere from about 30% of normal fuel costs to actually more.  Now granted, this is for a Tesla, but any vehicle with similar mpg range of about 24 mpg can apply. Does not matter the class.  Most large sport sedans would be about that anyway.

 

 

 

And my main point again, is that once you factor in the HUGE up front cost of BEV and the charging system installation, you are paying far more to charge it than people think.  The Tesla range averaging ~$2 per 40 miles driven.  And most consumers will NEVER recover the capital they spent believing they are saving money.  And the well to wheel debate kind of kills the whole ‘saving the planet’ nonsense.  Is it cleaner overall? Maybe, probably, but don’t ask me to hug the same trees as you.

 

I agree to disagree in regards to his backing up his claims. I think most people will agree that he cherry picked allot of data.

In regards to the gas versus electrical, let's, dive into this to see what the real story is here.

We will base this on a couple of solid facts:

257 million auto's registered in the US with an average age of 11 years. 

12,000 miles per year driven

For excitement factor we will use his 22 miles per gallon.

We will also use Washington State Average gas price and electrical price which of today September 26th 2016 is $2.59 per gallon and 6 cents per KWh.

Petro Auto - 12,000 miles for 11 years = 132,000 miles divided by 22 MPG = 6000 gallons of petrol @ $2.59 means you spend $15,540 dollars on Gas. With two oil changes per year, you adding another $1,100 at $100 per year, not looking at brakes, tires, other misc. maintenance cost.

Total cost over 11 years = $16,640 dollars or $1,512.72 per year.

EV Auto BOLT - 238 miles per charge at 60KWh.

60KWh times .06 = $3.60 per charge.

12,000 miles for 11 years = 132,000 miles divided by 238 = 554.621 Charges.

We will round it up to 555 times $3.60 per charge cost = $1998 cost in electrical. Add $2,000 for a 240V charger installed at your house and you have $3998 cost over 11 years. No brakes, tires, other misc. cost just like the Petro included, plus no oil changes.

Total cost over 11 years = $3,998 dollars or $363.45 per year.

Bonus, you can use the charger to charge other EV's if you buy more, cannot fuel at home for petros.

In washington state, since the Leaf came out, all homes and Townhomes are required to have a 240V disconnect box in the garage to support a EV Charger. All Condo's and Apartments must have dedicated EV charging spots equal to 10% of the parking.

So moving forward we will see an increase in support for charging EV's.

I understand that in many places gas prices are much lower and a few are higher plus electrical rates are also much higher compared to here. Yet with that said, EV's make plenty of sense.

You don't just buy an EV and call it a day.

I've said it before, I'm NO FAN of electric cars, because they are not at their best. While gas cars, yes they transform every generation, but the powertrain stuff when it comes to ICE, is nearing the end of the road. Diesel, HCCI, and then like the California mandate for 2050, no more gas powertrains....yup.

Electric cars , I think building them up requires a complete rethink of everything, atleast into now what is current old world, the West (or really North America). In China and other modern places, EV buses, and fast rail (like Europe) are the deal.

I like the Bolt. I think 238 range is nice. I think if they went with like 175 miles, but had a price before incentives of like $32,500... that would be better.

The Bolt is just the first of many. And while it's nice, the way how the car behaves because of the transformative electric drivetrain, it's nothing special. The Tesla is special. But Tesla has their own problems, having to quickly adapt to mass production, meet the quality demanded when their cars will eventually become of the incumbents if they become established.

Also, to counter point the cost of installing a fast charger, it costs money to connect natural gas for furnaces, stoves and etc...and that's IF that is a retro-fit for a person switching to electric. The smart thing to do is to install solar panels and become net energy neutral or even positive.  

I wouldn't consider a world without ICE cars out of the realm of possibility, but that's a long stretch, and I think a better way to build society would be one where people really wouldn't need cars unless they really NEED them.

I get the point your making Suav, but the OCD in me saying I will only give up my auto's when I am dead. I have only used Lyft once, Uber 3 times and all 4 of those times was due to a team outing. I take the bus daily into work as Seattle has made it impossible for a computer engineer to afford parking by the month.

Yet I love to drive and I love my freedom machine. I personally know that myself and my family will always have auto's.a

Mass transit and taxis have their place but cannot replace your freedom machine in this country.

I would like to point out one huge factor that no one seems to be considering here and it's regarding the fuel itself. Which "fuel" is more price stable? Gas or electric? Electric rates go up maybe every year (depending on which state you live in of course but I am going by Duke Energy rates back east and SRP/APS in Arizona. Full disclaimer: my father was thirty year employee of Duke Energy). You at least know the long range price of electricity while gas can literally change prices within hours, depending on the crisis of the day. Fuel stability has to be considered here when trying to weigh out the pros and cons of electric vs. ICE.

53 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I would like to point out one huge factor that no one seems to be considering here and it's regarding the fuel itself. Which "fuel" is more price stable? Gas or electric? Electric rates go up maybe every year (depending on which state you live in of course but I am going by Duke Energy rates back east and SRP/APS in Arizona. Full disclaimer: my father was thirty year employee of Duke Energy). You at least know the long range price of electricity while gas can literally change prices within hours, depending on the crisis of the day. Fuel stability has to be considered here when trying to weigh out the pros and cons of electric vs. ICE.

No one pointed that out, because it is NOT a 'huge' factor.  A $0.10 or even $0.20 fuel price change adds up to little when fuel a tank that lasts your several weeks using an efficient ICE engine.  

Electric rates change seasonally, and yes, hourly, by as much as 2X-3X. 

Your charging prices changes hourly, even as you recharge every day, even during the charging process.  Gas prices can’t change as you begin to fill up.

You conveniently ignore the fact that gas will not always be this low. In fact, not so long ago, it was over $4 a gallon and stayed over $3 gallon for a number of years. These are the things I am referring to. Volatility. Gas is much worse than electric. 

Oh and if you don't charge during peak hours, the rates are the same here in Arizona and in North Carolina regardless of the season. The ones that do have a consistent fluctuation (on and off peak hours for example) while gas is much more unpredictable, as well as the fact that gas prices are dependent on a number of worldwide factors that cause the very fluctuation I'm speaking of. It really isn't a debatable point when you look at all the factors and not just part of it. 

Oh and last week in much of the south, after the Colonial pipeline spill, gas prices literally went up more than 20 cents a gallon region wide. This went up immediately too. Fact is that while you have to manage your peak and non-peak electrical usage when charging an EV, you have much more control with that usage than you do when fuel prices change on a whim. Point being, I'll take a consistent pattern of electric use over the unpredictable and volatile nature of ever changing and much more unpredictable gas prices.

Electrical rate is the same 24/7 here in washington, so I am glad I do not have to deal with crazy price increases for periods like they do in stupid california.

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

You conveniently ignore the fact that gas will not always be this low. In fact, not so long ago, it was over $4 a gallon and stayed over $3 gallon for a number of years. These are the things I am referring to. Volatility. Gas is much worse than electric. 

 

Oh and if you don't charge during peak hours, the rates are the same here in Arizona and in North Carolina regardless of the season. The ones that do have a consistent fluctuation (on and off peak hours for example) while gas is much more unpredictable, as well as the fact that gas prices are dependent on a number of worldwide factors that cause the very fluctuation I'm speaking of. It really isn't a debatable point when you look at all the factors and not just part of it. 

Oh and last week in much of the south, after the Colonial pipeline spill, gas prices literally went up more than 20 cents a gallon region wide. This went up immediately too. Fact is that while you have to manage your peak and non-peak electrical usage when charging an EV, you have much more control with that usage than you do when fuel prices change on a whim. Point being, I'll take a consistent pattern of electric use over the unpredictable and volatile nature of ever changing and much more unpredictable gas prices.

Gas is cheap today and has been for years.

One day that may change, everyone knows that, so does that really have to be mentioned for my point to be valid?  I merely addressed your point.

So just worry about today and don't worry about the counter evidence and the obvious future. Got it. Agree to disagree.