The Non-V CT4 Revealed

  On 9/14/2019 at 9:59 PM, dfelt said:

 

What else is MB hiding in these Toyota / Chevrolet equal FWD appliances that MB sells? ??

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64.6% of Cadillac sales first half of 2019 were FWD.  And that number will rise since XT6 wasn't on sale then and ATS was, and ATS is now dead.  Cadillac is a 70% front drive brand and most of that rear drive is a Chevy Tahoe with luxury appointments.   Standard of the World I am sure.

  On 9/14/2019 at 8:56 PM, smk4565 said:

The ATS is closer in size to the C-class than it is to the A-class...

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A-class sedan : 179”, ATS: 182.

c-class sedan is 187”.

  On 9/14/2019 at 10:51 PM, smk4565 said:

64.6% of Cadillac sales first half of 2019 were FWD.

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Incorrect- you have not included AWD in your numbers.

  On 9/14/2019 at 10:51 PM, smk4565 said:

64.6% of Cadillac sales first half of 2019 were FWD.  And that number will rise since XT6 wasn't on sale then and ATS was, and ATS is now dead.  Cadillac is a 70% front drive brand and most of that rear drive is a Chevy Tahoe with luxury appointments.   Standard of the World I am sure.

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The ATS was replaced directly with the CT4 and the CTS was replaced directly with the CT5.  The XTS is dead soon, so their entire sedan lineup will be RWD.   No one cares about RWD in a crossover, if they did, the Stelvio would be flying off the lots, not the RX and XT5.  As much as I am "meh" about the XT6, they'll probably sell a good amount of them because again... no one cares about RWD in a crossover and Lincoln is currently botching the Aviator launch. 

Exactly.  If the typical luxury crossover buyer wanted RWD as non-negotiable, then the original SRX would never have been switched from RWD AND BMW SAVs would be flying off of dealer lots.  Cadillac switched the SRX to FWD because the best selling luxury crossover was the Lexus RX (always FWD).  The modern Cadillac crossovers followed suit and stayed FWD with AWD as an available option.

The luxury market is simple: RWD sedans and FWD crossovers are the norm, not the exception.  AWD is generally available for a slight premium.  The CT4, especially if priced right below the C-Class and the 3-series and the A4, should do just fine, perhaps a little better than the ATS.  Does it really matter if 50 or 60% of Cadillac sales are FWD?  NO.  It matters if Cadillac serves its market and keep gaining market share on the Germans and Lexus.

  On 9/14/2019 at 9:04 PM, smk4565 said:

I haven't seen any complaints of build quality on the A-class, like the recalls we are seeing on the Explorer/Navigator, or seen complaints of panel gaps or creaks and rattles, etc.  I have sat in the A-class, interior seemed well put together from a quality standpoint.  It doesn't have the fancy materials of the higher Benzes but it isn't poorly made.

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It’s because you don’t look for problems with Mercedes. One google search pulled up plenty for a car that’s barely been on the market a year here. And bringing up Ford? Again, what does that have to do with anything said here? No one said a thing about them. Besides, of course there will be more news for Ford here than benz because Ford sells in a much higher volume here thus increasing the frequency of recalls in its home country. It’s not rocket science but since you wanted to move the goal posts yet again, I figured I’d give you the simple answer for that. 

A Class Recall

https://www.automotive-fleet.com/331754/mercedes-recalls-a-class-for-brake-pedal

C Class recall (where they can’t properly hook up a battery terminal for some reason)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/mercedes-benz-battery-recall/

Here’s eight more recalls for the C Class

https://www.kbb.com/ownership/mercedes-benz/c-class/2018/

Now If you still want to act like recalls are the be all end all to car quality, please go there. I have plenty more Mercedes recalls where those came from  

  On 9/15/2019 at 12:50 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

The ATS was replaced directly with the CT4 and the CTS was replaced directly with the CT5.  The XTS is dead soon, so their entire sedan lineup will be RWD.   No one cares about RWD in a crossover, if they did, the Stelvio would be flying off the lots, not the RX and XT5.  As much as I am "meh" about the XT6, they'll probably sell a good amount of them because again... no one cares about RWD in a crossover and Lincoln is currently botching the Aviator launch. 

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He sidesteps the high number of FWD Mercedes sold today but that’s nothing new there. 

  On 9/14/2019 at 11:15 PM, balthazar said:

A-class sedan : 179”, ATS: 182.

c-class sedan is 187”.

Incorrect- you have not included AWD in your numbers.

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The CT4 is 187 inches long, a C63 is 187 inches long because the hood is longer to accommodate the V8.  A C300/C43 is 184.5 inches long.

A-class is all wheel drive too.

  On 9/15/2019 at 12:50 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

The ATS was replaced directly with the CT4 and the CTS was replaced directly with the CT5.  The XTS is dead soon, so their entire sedan lineup will be RWD.   No one cares about RWD in a crossover, if they did, the Stelvio would be flying off the lots, not the RX and XT5.  As much as I am "meh" about the XT6, they'll probably sell a good amount of them because again... no one cares about RWD in a crossover and Lincoln is currently botching the Aviator launch. 

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The X3 and GLC outsell the XT5 now.  

The ES350 outsells all Cadillac sedans combined, does that mean Cadillac should kill all rear drive product because people want front wheel drive?  Or maybe people just want a Lexus ES because it has been on the market for 25 years and they keep trading in for another.

I question how long the CT4 will last, my guess it is a one and done product like so many other GM sedans of the past 20 years because I just don’t think they will find enough volume.  I think the CT5 will do better since it is bigger.

  On 9/15/2019 at 2:25 AM, riviera74 said:

Exactly.  If the typical luxury crossover buyer wanted RWD as non-negotiable, then the original SRX would never have been switched from RWD AND BMW SAVs would be flying off of dealer lots.  Cadillac switched the SRX to FWD because the best selling luxury crossover was the Lexus RX (always FWD).  The modern Cadillac crossovers followed suit and stayed FWD with AWD as an available option.

The luxury market is simple: RWD sedans and FWD crossovers are the norm, not the exception.  AWD is generally available for a slight premium.  The CT4, especially if priced right below the C-Class and the 3-series and the A4, should do just fine, perhaps a little better than the ATS.  Does it really matter if 50 or 60% of Cadillac sales are FWD?  NO.  It matters if Cadillac serves its market and keep gaining market share on the Germans and Lexus.

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BMW is the #1 selling luxury car in the USA in 2019 and Mercedes is #2.  And they command higher prices than any of their competitors.

Lexus hasn’t been the top selling luxury brand in the USA in about 20 years and they are surviving on 2 products right now.   Cadillac has lost crazy market share in the past 20 years, and not just here they are way behind in China and non-existent in Europe.  

  On 9/15/2019 at 3:00 AM, surreal1272 said:

 

 

He sidesteps the high number of FWD Mercedes sold today but that’s nothing new there. 

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16.4% of Mercedes sales in 2019 are FWD based compared to 64.6% at Cadillac.  If Mercedes has a high number then what is Cadillac? 

It's a big fat "who cares?!" 

I personally think the XT5 is performing poorly in sales for two reasons.  1. they made it ugly. 2. GM (again) got greedy with the option prices.  The old SRX did perfectly fine in sales because it was attractive. 

  On 9/15/2019 at 4:20 AM, smk4565 said:

16.4% of Mercedes sales in 2019 are FWD based compared to 64.6% at Cadillac.  If Mercedes has a high number then what is Cadillac? 

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See Drew’s comment and try so actual logic next time instead of putting that goal post on wheels and moving it all about. 

Couldn’t help but notice that you have no counter argument for the quality claim after I posted the many recalls on various Mercedes models. 

About that percentage you posted, Benz was late to the FWD party but has introduced more FWD models in the last four years than Cadillac. Clearly they are trying to grab that “poor mans” market with cheaper FWD models but somehow you think it will translate to continued high quality on their part and that it’s no big deal if Benz goes cheap. It only matter when Cadillac does it. Thats the fanboy logic for you. 

  On 9/15/2019 at 4:20 AM, smk4565 said:

16.4% of Mercedes sales in 2019 are FWD based...

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The sad take-away here is that ten years ago it was 0% - so it's growing fast.

  On 9/14/2019 at 9:04 PM, smk4565 said:

I haven't seen any complaints of build quality on the A-class, like the recalls we are seeing on the Explorer/Navigator, or seen complaints of panel gaps or creaks and rattles, etc.  I have sat in the A-class, interior seemed well put together from a quality standpoint.  It doesn't have the fancy materials of the higher Benzes but it isn't poorly made.

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Whether the A Class has more problems or not wasn’t the point. There has been a recall on their brake pedals. SMK is the one who asserted that Ford had problems, which no one here would deny but this wasn’t about Ford. It was about this fanboy assumption of Mercedes quality being so great when the recalls I posted for cars such as the C Class would seem suggest otherwise. 

  On 9/15/2019 at 7:37 PM, balthazar said:

The sad take-away here is that ten years ago it was 0% - so it's growing fast.

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Exactly what I was getting. FWD is so bad that the “best or nothing” wanted a piece of the action. 

BMW was running ads bragging they were all RWD- the ones with the rabbit with huge front legs. That went out the window, didn't it.

So we are to believe the A Class will be high quality but the next model up from it, the C Class, didn’t get tat memo. 

https://carbuzz.com/news/can-you-guess-which-car-has-the-highest-recall-rate-in-america

  On 9/15/2019 at 9:45 PM, surreal1272 said:

So we are to believe the A Class will be high quality but the next model up from it, the C Class, didn’t get tat memo. 

 

https://carbuzz.com/news/can-you-guess-which-car-has-the-highest-recall-rate-in-america

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WOW, some of the info is surprising but clearly quality is not in the BEST Category of their Best or Nothing as it clearly is in the Nothing Category!

QUOTE:

Surprisingly, the study found that the car with the highest recall rate in America is the Mercedes C-Class. According to the study, the luxury car "has been recalled for a host of safety issues, from several different recall campaigns involving airbags to multiple campaigns involving failure in the steering column." Another campaign required the C-Class to be recalled because the sunroof had been improperly bonded to the frame, which meant there was a risk it could fall on passengers.

Like the fact that they also related the recall list which by the way has Mercedes-Benz and BMW claiming the top spots for recalls followed by the GMC Sierra and of course everyone else both domestic, Asian and the rest of the German broads.

What I found interesting in the read is that the Toyota 4Runner has such high reliability from Consumer Reports but is for it's class at the top of the recall list.

How does Recalls and Reliability go.................

Also very ? funny that at least for me, both Toyota and MB have ads on the story page to try and sell you said auto's.

Toyoter is basically shiny junk.

  On 9/15/2019 at 11:12 PM, balthazar said:

Toyoter is basically shiny junk.

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Owner of a ‘96 RAV 4 with 267K miles on it. It’s not shiny anymore but it’s never been junk. 

Open to interpretation. ?

  On 9/15/2019 at 5:55 PM, surreal1272 said:

Couldn’t help but notice that you have no counter argument for the quality claim after I posted the many recalls on various Mercedes models. 

 

About that percentage you posted, Benz was late to the FWD party but has introduced more FWD models in the last four years than Cadillac. Clearly they are trying to grab that “poor mans” market with cheaper FWD models but somehow you think it will translate to continued high quality on their part and that it’s no big deal if Benz goes cheap. It only matter when Cadillac does it. Thats the fanboy logic for you. 

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Every auto maker has recalls, that isn't an indication of quality or long term reliability, especially when the recall can be for different things.

Talk about moving goal post, "Benz has released more FWD models in the past 4 years than Cadillac"  Not sure what that has to do with anything.  Although the only FWB Benz released in the past 4 years was the A-class, and Cadillac introduced XT4 and XT6 this year.  If you want to go back to 2012 when the CLA/GLA came out, the XTS and XT5 have been released since then.  Not that any of that really matters.

I don't see how selling the A-class effects any other car in the line up.  Chevrolet makes the Spark and Sonic, it has zero effect on the Corvette. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 1:11 AM, balthazar said:

Open to interpretation. ?

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Fair point but it has been bulletproof thus it is not junk to me. 

  On 9/15/2019 at 9:45 PM, surreal1272 said:

So we are to believe the A Class will be high quality but the next model up from it, the C Class, didn’t get tat memo. 

 

https://carbuzz.com/news/can-you-guess-which-car-has-the-highest-recall-rate-in-america

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Funny how the C-class outsells all Cadillac sedans combined, you'd think if quality was so bad people wouldn't buy it.  And as I said recalls are are not directly related to build quality.   CT5 is priced BELOW the C-class, Cadillac knew their only hope to compete with a C-class was to re-work a CTS and take $10k off the price, CT4 they know would do worse against the C-class than the ATS did.  I still think CT4 is a one generation car, and Cadillac will move to a 1 sedan lineup around 2025, unless they put an EV sedan out.

  On 9/16/2019 at 1:34 AM, smk4565 said:

Every auto maker has recalls, that isn't an indication of quality or long term reliability, especially when the recall can be for different things.

Talk about moving goal post, "Benz has released more FWD models in the past 4 years than Cadillac"  Not sure what that has to do with anything.  Although the only FWB Benz released in the past 4 years was the A-class, and Cadillac introduced XT4 and XT6 this year.  If you want to go back to 2012 when the CLA/GLA came out, the XTS and XT5 have been released since then.  Not that any of that really matters.

I don't see how selling the A-class effects any other car in the line up.  Chevrolet makes the Spark and Sonic, it has zero effect on the Corvette. 

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There was no goalpost moving. You criticized Cadillac for the percentage of FWD models sold while ignoring the increase in FWD sales for Mercedes over the last four years, showing more reliance on those FWD models to boost sales. 

And again, the A Class itself was not point in my talk about reliability and you know that. Go back and read it more carefully before assuming that’s what I’m talking about. I am talking about this automatic pass you give for one car (regarding quality) while ignoring the fact that even their higher priced cars had many quality issues. If their next up the food chain car (C Class) is getting hammered in that regard, then why should anyone assume that the next one down the food chain is any better. See the connection yet?

  On 9/16/2019 at 1:41 AM, smk4565 said:

Funny how the C-class outsells all Cadillac sedans combined, you'd think if quality was so bad people wouldn't buy it.  And as I said recalls are are not directly related to build quality.   CT5 is priced BELOW the C-class, Cadillac knew their only hope to compete with a C-class was to re-work a CTS and take $10k off the price, CT4 they know would do worse against the C-class than the ATS did.  I still think CT4 is a one generation car, and Cadillac will move to a 1 sedan lineup around 2025, unless they put an EV sedan out.

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Now that’s a goal post move. Based on your logic, would you say that the Jeep Wrangler is quality or has been quality over the last three decades even though is had always sold well? How about the Escalade, which routinely beats the Mercedes competition? 

You say that recalls have no bearing on quality yet used that very argument against Ford. So do recalls only matter when we are talking about the competition? 

And BS on the one model nonsense because you have been saying that for years (before the release of the CT4 and CT5) and even thought they were cutting down to one or maybe two models not even two years ago. How’d that work out?

  On 9/16/2019 at 1:42 AM, surreal1272 said:

There was no goalpost moving. You criticized Cadillac for the percentage of FWD models sold while ignoring the increase in FWD sales for Mercedes over the last four years, showing more reliance on those FWD models to boost sales. 

 

And again, the A Class itself was not point in my talk about reliability and you know that. Go back and read it more carefully before assuming that’s what I’m talking about. I am talking about this automatic pass you give for one car (regarding quality) while ignoring the fact that even their higher priced cars had many quality issues. If their next up the food chain car (C Class) is getting hammered in that regard, then why should anyone assume that the next one down the food chain is any better. See the connection yet?

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So Cadillac who made 1 FWD car in their 2009 lineup, and now has 4 (until XTS is officially dead) and introduced the front drive ELR, forgot about that disaster is not relying on FWD for sales?   Cadillac's 2 best sellers are front drive, XT6 will probably outsell Escalade and for sure will outsell CT4 and CT5.  

And the A-class is in a segment that Cadillac doesn't even compete in, by size class anyway, we don't know how CT4 is priced yet.  As I have said before, transverse mounted 4-cylinder engine vehicles are by far the most popular set up, it is what people are used to.  Smart move by Mercedes to offer a product to pull people into their brand with something they are familiar with. Not everyone wants a 500-600 hp V8 rear drive car, I would like that, but most of the market wants horsepower in the 200s and gas mileage in the 30s.  Mercedes is building what people want, and they haven't killed any rear drive lines and replaced it with front drive.

  On 9/13/2019 at 10:07 PM, surreal1272 said:

Trolling? Show us where he is wrong anywhere in his alleged trolling statement. 

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"Just accept that Mercedes is NOT a Luxury auto only company, but have changed into the Toyota/GM"

"You cannot be a luxury auto maker only when you are making JCPenny's prices products too."

  On 9/13/2019 at 11:00 PM, smk4565 said:

The more sales they can take from Chevy, Toyota, Hyundai or whoever the better it is for those buyers who will avoid accidents, have lower insurance premiums, better driving records, and be safer in a crash if one does occur. 

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They will not have a lower insurance premium as the car still cost 2-3 times more. 

  On 9/14/2019 at 4:13 AM, surreal1272 said:

The A Class isn’t a money grab? Then why make and sell a car that doesn’t make real money? 

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The same reason most anybody sells a cheap car with terrible margins, to get somebody into your brand and hopefully sell them a step up later because they had a good experience with the first car. 

Mercedes > Cadillac. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 1:54 AM, smk4565 said:

So Cadillac who made 1 FWD car in their 2009 lineup, and now has 4 (until XTS is officially dead) and introduced the front drive ELR, forgot about that disaster is not relying on FWD for sales?   Cadillac's 2 best sellers are front drive, XT6 will probably outsell Escalade and for sure will outsell CT4 and CT5.  

And the A-class is in a segment that Cadillac doesn't even compete in, by size class anyway, we don't know how CT4 is priced yet.  As I have said before, transverse mounted 4-cylinder engine vehicles are by far the most popular set up, it is what people are used to.  Smart move by Mercedes to offer a product to pull people into their brand with something they are familiar with. Not everyone wants a 500-600 hp V8 rear drive car, I would like that, but most of the market wants horsepower in the 200s and gas mileage in the 30s.  Mercedes is building what people want, and they haven't killed any rear drive lines and replaced it with front drive.

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What people want is a three pointed star... doesn't matter if the car behind it is a fake benz. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 1:32 PM, ccap41 said:

The same reason most anybody sells a cheap car with terrible margins, to get somebody into your brand and hopefully sell them a step up later because they had a good experience with the first car. 

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Please read the entire conversation first. This wasn’t just about whether it was a money grab. It was about Mercedes playing to the cheap market which is okay but he apparently thinks that is the only way Cadillac can play, because he thinks they’re cheap. 

I have read the entire conversation. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 1:54 AM, smk4565 said:

So Cadillac who made 1 FWD car in their 2009 lineup, and now has 4 (until XTS is officially dead) and introduced the front drive ELR, forgot about that disaster is not relying on FWD for sales?   Cadillac's 2 best sellers are front drive, XT6 will probably outsell Escalade and for sure will outsell CT4 and CT5.  

And the A-class is in a segment that Cadillac doesn't even compete in, by size class anyway, we don't know how CT4 is priced yet.  As I have said before, transverse mounted 4-cylinder engine vehicles are by far the most popular set up, it is what people are used to.  Smart move by Mercedes to offer a product to pull people into their brand with something they are familiar with. Not everyone wants a 500-600 hp V8 rear drive car, I would like that, but most of the market wants horsepower in the 200s and gas mileage in the 30s.  Mercedes is building what people want, and they haven't killed any rear drive lines and replaced it with front drive.

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Literally everything you just said is 100% unrelated to what I said regarding the increase in FWD Mercedes models. While we are talking about “best sellers” though, I couldn’t help but notice you failed to mention Mercedes best seller, the hideous “I’m not sure if I’m a tall car or a slouchy Wagon” GLC that happens to be, you guessed it, FRONT WHEEL DRIVE!

And in 2009 Benz had zero and now have four but what I have learned from you is that it’s okay for Benz to do it because that’s what the customer wants but if Cadillac does it, it’s because of failure. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 3:59 PM, ccap41 said:

I have read the entire conversation. 

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No offense but you clearly didn’t judging by your cherry picking my one statement out of many. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 1:22 PM, ccap41 said:

"Just accept that Mercedes is NOT a Luxury auto only company, but have changed into the Toyota/GM"

"You cannot be a luxury auto maker only when you are making JCPenny's prices products too."

They will not have a lower insurance premium as the car still cost 2-3 times more. 

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You pulling up alleged examples of trolling doesn’t mean that the statements were wrong. Understand the difference yet?

  On 9/16/2019 at 4:08 PM, surreal1272 said:

No offense but you clearly didn’t judging by your cherry picking my one statement out of many. 

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Well, i'm not going to pick through everything you said. It was about 2 pages worth of comments between everybody. 

You asked a pretty simple question and I simply responded to it. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 4:08 PM, surreal1272 said:

While we are talking about “best sellers” though, I couldn’t help but notice you failed to mention Mercedes best seller, the hideous “I’m not sure if I’m a tall car or a slouchy Wagon” GLC that happens to be, you guessed it, FRONT WHEEL DRIVE!

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Uhhh.. No it isn't. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 4:08 PM, surreal1272 said:

Literally everything you just said is 100% unrelated to what I said regarding the increase in FWD Mercedes models. While we are talking about “best sellers” though, I couldn’t help but notice you failed to mention Mercedes best seller, the hideous “I’m not sure if I’m a tall car or a slouchy Wagon” GLC that happens to be, you guessed it, FRONT WHEEL DRIVE!

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The GLC is RWD. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 4:08 PM, surreal1272 said:

You pulling up alleged examples of trolling doesn’t mean that the statements were wrong. Understand the difference yet?

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What do you mean alleged examples? Scroll back to the 2nd page. Those are copy and pasted. 

They're 100% wrong and trolling though. I'm not actually harping on him for doing it. I get it, we all knock on brands and things here and there. I assume he was joking and my response was also sarcastic. No harm, no foul. 

Good thing we all have a hard time relating humor, sarcasm, etc. in our writing.

Pretty much no matter what, in today's global market, you cannot survive by being in only a single narrow focus area as to why Bentley is no longer single, MB has moved into the Toyota/Chevrolet market, pretty much every asian auto company now has entered the luxury segment.

Anyone that thinks any one brand is the best or Luxury of the world is delusional in not acknowledging the multiple brackets of entry to ubber luxury to optimize profits.

You still have not paid attention regarding my trolling statement. Whether it was trolling or not wasn’t the point. There wasn’t anything about it that wasn’t actually the truth. And joke or not, you chose to harp on my clarifying of the point so...

  On 9/16/2019 at 4:17 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

The GLC is RWD. 

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My apologies. I referenced a C&D article and it mentioned it. My mistake. It doesn’t change the fact that Benz is leaning more and more on FWD models to boost their sales so for SMK to harp on Cadillac is to also harp on Benz who barely had a FWD anything just five years ago.

Use a better source. 

Whoops, Car and Driver got that wrong. We all make mistakes.

  On 9/16/2019 at 8:34 PM, ccap41 said:

Use a better source. 

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See above apology and stop acting like you’ve never made a damn mistake. 

These are so blah.... especially the trunk area. The base 4-cylinder should have more power... at least as much as the old Cobalt SS or Buick Verano.

  On 9/16/2019 at 9:02 PM, surreal1272 said:

See above apology and stop acting like you’ve never made a damn mistake. 

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Read my edit comment. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 9:23 PM, ccap41 said:

Read my edit comment. 

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And? The comment I replied to was before your edit. So what? You made your post with a very clear intent because "Oh man! Surreal made a mistake so I'm going to throw it in his face." was the only thing you were thinking. I have almost always admitted when I've made a blatant mistake like that. Maybe you should take a mental note of that next time.

Corners guys... .

  On 9/16/2019 at 10:51 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

Corners guys... .

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I'm good. Sorry for any escalation on my part. 

  On 9/16/2019 at 4:08 PM, surreal1272 said:

Literally everything you just said is 100% unrelated to what I said regarding the increase in FWD Mercedes models. While we are talking about “best sellers” though, I couldn’t help but notice you failed to mention Mercedes best seller, the hideous “I’m not sure if I’m a tall car or a slouchy Wagon” GLC that happens to be, you guessed it, FRONT WHEEL DRIVE!

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The GLC is rear wheel drive.  

Top 4 sellers in order in the USA are GLC, C-class, GLE, E-class.  All 4 are rear drive, all 4 offer a V8.

  On 9/16/2019 at 10:19 PM, surreal1272 said:

And? The comment I replied to was before your edit. So what? You made your post with a very clear intent because "Oh man! Surreal made a mistake so I'm going to throw it in his face." was the only thing you were thinking. I have almost always admitted when I've made a blatant mistake like that. Maybe you should take a mental note of that next time.

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Jesus, dude.. simmer down. You're over thinking this waaaaay too much. 

My initial response was to @dfelt anyway. 

My mental note is you go nuts over the smallest of things. 

  On 9/17/2019 at 1:34 PM, ccap41 said:

Jesus, dude.. simmer down. You're over thinking this waaaaay too much. 

My initial response was to @dfelt anyway. 

My mental note is you go nuts over the smallest of things. 

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? What were we debating again. I seemed to have been side tracked in my comments.  

  On 9/17/2019 at 3:56 PM, dfelt said:

? What were we debating again. I seemed to have been side tracked in my comments.  

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Ahhh it was just the intentional troll comment.

  On 9/17/2019 at 3:58 PM, ccap41 said:

Ahhh it was just the intentional troll comment.

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Right my own opinion on that not being a troll, just pointing out MB has changed from what was viewed by most as a Luxury only automaker to what what it really is, a global automaker selling entry level FWD Blah appliances to ubber luxury level auto's as stupid crazy prices. IMHO. MB is no different than any other auto company out there with cheap ass version auto's to mid range to luxury to ubber luxury.

End result, Mercedes-Benz is NOT a Ubber Luxury auto company any longer. After all those cheap ass plastic delivery vans are sold alongside an S-Class on the same lot.

Done with this rant, back to the Non V CT4. Has potential, be interesting to see what all it does once it is on the lots for sale.

Hope GM actually  Markets them properly to drive sales.

I don’t think the CT4 looks better than the ATS, it is a little bigger but I don’t know if it is roomier.  No V6 options.  I don’t know if they did anything here that makes this better than the ATS which wasn’t selling.  If they price it below ATS maybe they have a chance.