The Move to Electric Marks Cadillac's Last Stand

I think Tesla will be in big trouble when Lincoln and Benz and Cadillac start bringing Electrics.

Or...it could be a paradigm shift and they are able to ride the wave. Not sure.

I REALLY HOPE that they shock everyone with a Escalade EV. They will have me putting money down if they do.

@A Horse With No Name Are these car pictures for the Random thread or to make a point here on electrics? ?

4 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I REALLY HOPE that they shock everyone with a Escalade EV. They will have me putting money down if they do.

@A Horse With No Name Are these car pictures for the Random thread or to make a point here on electrics? ?

Give eye candy to a thread..bored on break. Probably should be in Random thoughts...

17 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Give eye candy to a thread..bored on break. Probably should be in Random thoughts...

Then in that case lets put in the proper eye candy of what an AWESOME EV lineup could look like.

Urban Commuter

So many awesome EV possibilities! 

Gorgeous...and always down for a little automotive eye candy!

5 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Gorgeous...and always down for a little automotive eye candy!

Imagine how big that Frunk would be on the Ciel with as an EV plus a huge trunk.

45 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Imagine how big that Frunk would be on the Ciel with as an EV plus a huge trunk.

Like the Porsche Boxter and Cayman...two trunks.

38 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Like the Porsche Boxter and Cayman...two trunks.

Best part about this is that I believe many of the Cadillac's I have posted above would slip through the air with minimal resistance and be a silent stealthy luxury ride with tight handling that I would be proud to own.

Those styles prove we do not need an ugly auto like Tesla. Tesla has amazing technology, but their style is anything but pleasing to me.

I noticed that for the most part, that while Tesla puts a HP figure on their base home screen for their auto's, when you look at the specification page everything is metric. I also noticed that Atlis and Rivian is doing this.

I wonder if Cadillac will take the risk of going metric rather than sticking with the old standard system? ?

Mark Reuss has spent his whole career at GM.  He has been at the helm a good while, he hasn't helped to save Cadillac yet, so I wouldn't exactly bank on the cast of characters that led Cadillac to where they are, getting them out of it.  And yes Johan and Bob Lutz are gone, but once upon a time GM thought those guys were saviors, then they dropped them to have someone to blame for Cadillac's failures.

EV is the future, they have to go all in on it.  But you still have a brand image issue, BMW and Mercedes are still BMW and Mercedes and Tesla is the hot brand.  They can build EV's but you have to convince people to buy Cadillacs still, and we are nearing 20 years of "renaissance" and no improvement in sales, mostly everyone else has grown while they shrank.

Well as said before here by @Cmicasa the Great nice talk Reussy, but you introduce a V8 for your most luxo sedan and the wave of interest and sold out in hours single highhandedly saved the car. Go figure.

As much as the LF3 is great, I bet if the ATS-V had a V8 option too, and maybe just a little nicer interior - you would have Camaro buyers upgrading to it potentially, a fire breathing German killer, and a wicked fast furious car...except now with the option of matching soundtrack.

This electric stand is an option. But I bet that certain buyers will still pay top money for a real combustion engine with big displacement and no fewer than 8 cyclinders.

Nobody said that Cadillac should drop the V8.  Cadillac should build a GREAT V8, better than anything that can be found in a Camaro or even a Corvette.

They already build it! Now get it to market and put it in a real product. Imagine if the XT6 was RWD and had Black Wing. Escalade is for cowboys, while XT6 for the sophisticates...who am I kidding it's for suburban families, with a high mix of female drivers...

Ah if only. I mean you can always pretend that it's a high performance piece because Cadillac....

But I doubt how Cadillac can truly differentiate again...like Porshce, BMW, they're all getting EVs. At that point Cadillac must be alluring and build a no compromise vehicle that will court the naysayers and kill the haterz. And sell plenty in China to be viable, that's not even an option.

16 hours ago, dfelt said:

Imagine how big that Frunk would be on the Ciel with as an EV plus a huge trunk.

Lame, lame lame.  Absolutely the worst.

FAR too much sameness with electrics.  NO differentiation under the skin.  It is what's UNDER the skin that gives a vehicle real, memorable character.  There is nothing memorable about the boring hum of an electric motor, whirring autonomously into oblivion.

14 hours ago, dfelt said:

I noticed that for the most part, that while Tesla puts a HP figure on their base home screen for their auto's, when you look at the specification page everything is metric. I also noticed that Atlis and Rivian is doing this.

I believe it's merely a gimmick: 50 Nm = 37 lb-ft.  It bumps the numbers.

19 hours ago, dfelt said:

Imagine how big that Frunk would be on the Ciel with as an EV plus a huge trunk.

Well this is the goal. I have zero issue with this, but like I pointed out in the Henry Ford quote about the "better horse" some will fight tooth and nail to still be able to smell exhaust from a ICE. I have a friend who absolutely will not stop traditional smoking cigarettes even tho both his mom, dad, and uncle have lung cancer or died from lung cancer. His old lady even proposed that he use the E-Cigarettes, but he refuses because they just aren't the same. Quoting possible negative effects of them to try and justify the absolute known effects of Newports. That is basically what we have in OcnBlue?

Cadillac's move to EV is not a gimmick nor is it its "last chance." Its the last frontier for all makers..and I think that was what Reuss was saying.. not that Cadillac is dead if consumers don't take hold of EVs for the brand in record sales numbers. If Cadillac just wanted record sales.. all they would have had to do or do.. is badge engineer existing Chevy models in a way that addresses all of its competitors. As I said.. GM has the supply.. the tech.. the capability, but refuses to utilize it while sitting in the Silos wondering why Mercedes or Audi have 13-16 vehicles, and minimum 4 variants of each.. versus their 6 vehicles and maybe 2 variants.. are beating them in sales and awareness. Its bewildering to say the least. Example.

EClass comes in E-Class Coupe, E-Class Sedan, E-Class Convertible, E-Class AMG and I believe an E-Class Wagon. Each one of them have a "VSport" for all intents under the name AMG53= 46,422

CTS comes in CTS Sedan, CTS V 2018 Sales 11,219 (i'll throw in XTS sales since they were same price. 17,727 and the E-Class couples its sales with the CLS) = 28,946

Go figure. 

Here we go.. U , GM , can make a Camaro coupe and convertible on the same platform as the CTS and ATS but can't make one for the CTS and ATS. Could that have generated, all those variants matched to what Benz has, another 17K sales? I'm betting yes.. or damn close. I would have certainly been in line trading my CTS-V in for a CTS-V Coupe.. no different than I did in 2012 when I traded my '09 CTS Sedan for my '12 V Coupe

5 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Well this is the goal. I have zero issue with this, but like I pointed out in the Henry Ford quote about the "better horse" some will fight tooth and nail to still be able to smell exhaust from a ICE. I have a friend who absolutely will not stop traditional smoking cigarettes even tho both his mom, dad, and uncle have lung cancer or died from lung cancer. His old lady even proposed that he use the E-Cigarettes, but he refuses because they just aren't the same. Quoting possible negative effects of them to try and justify the absolute known effects of Newports. That is basically what we have in OcnBlue

No (Cmicasa the) greatness in this paragraph.  You have to own shares, that is the only sane explanation for falling in line so easily behind Barra & Co's mission to destroy whatever made GM great in the past, before the years leading up to bankruptcy.  Oh well, when they go under, I will remember them fondly for their PROUD history, before this 10-year apology tour/retreat from their home soil.  Other companies will make up the slack.

5 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

No (Cmicasa the) greatness in this paragraph.  You have to own shares, that is the only sane explanation for falling in line so easily behind Barra & Co's mission to destroy whatever made GM great in the past, before the years leading up to bankruptcy.  Oh well, when they go under, I will remember them fondly for their PROUD history, before this 10-year apology tour/retreat from their home soil.  Other companies will make up the slack.

Can't U see... Can't U seeeee.. In order for GM to survive they need to be able to compete in a techno word. ICEs are those horses... Now imagine if in 1909 Billy Durant had of decided to not pursue the formation of Buick, Cadillac, and Olds into General Motors.. but had instead decided, like U, to call upon Hugo de Vries and Carl Correns (lead geneticists at the time) and push them to develop a better, more powerful horse... I have it on good authority that Henry Ford would have left him in the dust.. and GM would have filed BK in 1911. 

Also.. no one is saying, not even GM, that the ICE is dead at their company. This is a migration which will take over a decade or more for all of those engines to phased out. If calamity comes.. GM, being one of the most resilient corporations on record, will simply un-shelve those beloved ICEs, and re-insert

The movie Money Ball, and this scene, eerily sums up this conversation...And this movie is truly based on real life events on how the Oakland A's did things with analytics.  

Grady being Blu and Billy being, well, the future of electric vehicle production...

Adapt or die.  

And like @Cmicasa the Great  said. If electrics dont work out, but they will, GM will just revert to be building ICE cars again. 

The memo is this though. GM will not stop producing ICE. GM will just stop producing cars that dont sell.  GM's press conference just before the Detroit autoshow did say that GM has made itself the world's most successful CUV/SUV producer and seller!!!

And if you hadnt noticed, those successful CUVs/SUVs ALL have ICE in them!!!

10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

And like @Cmicasa the Great  said. If electrics dont work out, but they will, GM will just revert to be building ICE cars again. 

The memo is this though. GM will not stop producing ICE. GM will just stop producing cars that dont sell.  GM's press conference just before the Detroit autoshow did say that GM has made itself the world's most successful CUV/SUV producer and seller!!!

And if you hadnt noticed, those successful CUVs/SUVs ALL have ICE in them!!!

GM crossover deliveries totaled 1,034,808 in 2018, up 7 percent versus 2017, and the following five nameplates had record calendar year sales: GM PRESS

4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

No (Cmicasa the) greatness in this paragraph.  You have to own shares, that is the only sane explanation for falling in line so easily behind Barra & Co's mission to destroy whatever made GM great in the past, before the years leading up to bankruptcy.  Oh well, when they go under, I will remember them fondly for their PROUD history, before this 10-year apology tour/retreat from their home soil.  Other companies will make up the slack.

Blinded by the PAST, you fail to see the future and survive. Companies that live in the past die. Many great companies in the US did that, GM is looking to the future to survive. FCA, will die as will any company that tries to stick to the past. Rest in Peace!

16 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

In order for GM to survive they need to be able to compete in a techno word. ICEs are those horses... Now imagine if in 1909 Billy Durant had of decided to not pursue the formation of Buick, Cadillac, and Olds into General Motors.. but had instead decided, like U, to call upon Hugo de Vries and Carl Correns (lead geneticists at the time) and push them to develop a better, more powerful horse... I have it on good authority that Henry Ford would have left him in the dust.. and GM would have filed BK in 1911.

EV vs. ICE is not like the auto vs. the horse. It's like 1 breed of horse vs. another breed of horse you merely give different feed. Functionally & physically they're the same, just like EV/ICEs.
- - - - -
Ask yourself this : why doesn't Mercedes (2 mill global sales) handily outsell it's mainstream rival ? toyota (10 mil)? It's supposedly a better automobile and mercedes would HAPPILY sell 10 or even 15 million if they could. Why -like their tagline from the early '00s- isn't there a mercedes in every driveway??

The answer is price- the Dec '17 ATP of a toyoyo was $33,9xx. This is the market limitation of EVs- they're almost all in the luxury price tier and the ones announced for future production are likewise in very elevated price tiers. How are OEMs going to move 98% or even 50% of the market into the luxury price tier? 'Battery prices are coming down' doesn't come close to answering that, and we've seen Tesla only raise pricing/refuse to build an 'affordable' model. If they can't do it being the #1 EV brand, how will any other brands do it?

EV will NOT become a mainstream sector without addressing pricing. And I've yet to see evidence they can.

8 hours ago, dfelt said:

Blinded by the PAST, you fail to see the future and survive. Companies that live in the past die. Many great companies in the US did that, GM is looking to the future to survive. FCA, will die as will any company that tries to stick to the past. Rest in Peace!

Regardless of the superior ICE to inferior EV argument, GM is still (and has been) in retreat mode.  They are retreating from their home soil.  Plenty of people with long memories are not pleased by this fact.

5 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Regardless of the superior ICE to inferior EV argument, GM is still (and has been) in retreat mode.  They are retreating from their home soil.  Plenty of people with long memories are not pleased by this fact.

More like retreating to their home soil...GM has given up on a lot of their worldwide operations with the sale of Opel, etc.

6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Regardless of the superior ICE to inferior EV argument, GM is still (and has been) in retreat mode.  They are retreating from their home soil.  Plenty of people with long memories are not pleased by this fact.

Many of those long memories people you state are also out of touch with moving forward into the future and will fall behind in skill set and ability to work as the workforce moves forward and they are left behind. 

The fact is Humans can NEVER STOP LEARNING, Never Stop Changing and NEVER Stop embracing future change.

Stagnate is Death, nothing wrong with having a hobby of learning the past to make sure mistakes are not repeated in the future, but the past is not the place to live.

Everything has a life expectancy and once must move forward in life. Everything wears out, everything is replaced and changes. There is a reason really old things have a smell of death about it.

17 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Many of those long memories people you state are also out of touch with moving forward into the future and will fall behind in skill set and ability to work as the workforce moves forward and they are left behind. 

The fact is Humans can NEVER STOP LEARNING, Never Stop Changing and NEVER Stop embracing future change.

Stagnate is Death, nothing wrong with having a hobby of learning the past to make sure mistakes are not repeated in the future, but the past is not the place to live.

Everything has a life expectancy and once must move forward in life. Everything wears out, everything is replaced and changes. There is a reason really old things have a smell of death about it.

To quote a 40+ yr old song---

Don't stop thinking about tomorrow
Don't stop, it'll soon be here
It'll be, better than before
Yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

More like retreating to their home soil...GM has given up on a lot of their worldwide operations with the sale of Opel, etc.

??? Moving more production out of the USA is a retreat.  Chopping large swaths out of their model portfolio with nothing coming in the low price range behind them is a retreat.  Mismanagement over many years... cut & run instead of fight... definition of a "retreat".

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

??? Moving more production out of the USA is a retreat.  Chopping large swaths out of their model portfolio with nothing coming in the low price range behind them is a retreat.  Mismanagement over many years... cut & run instead of fight... definition of a "retreat".

Jesus you just earned a damned nice steak dinner from me with this one...Hell I might even drive to Lancaster to buy it for you. I trust you have Steakhouses there in  the Keystone State?

We don't always agree but when we do....we do. I agree one hundred percent with you here.

I would upvote this by ten thousand if I could.

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

Many of those long memories people you state are also out of touch with moving forward into the future and will fall behind in skill set and ability to work as the workforce moves forward and they are left behind. 

The fact is Humans can NEVER STOP LEARNING, Never Stop Changing and NEVER Stop embracing future change.

Stagnate is Death, nothing wrong with having a hobby of learning the past to make sure mistakes are not repeated in the future, but the past is not the place to live.

Everything has a life expectancy and once must move forward in life. Everything wears out, everything is replaced and changes. There is a reason really old things have a smell of death about it.

Not upvoting or downvoting this but it is irrational.  In woodworking...some technology is thousands of years old and works fine. Some CNC Routers might be obsolete 6 months after they are introduced. 

Newer is not always better, old is not always bad.

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

More like retreating to their home soil...GM has given up on a lot of their worldwide operations with the sale of Opel, etc.

In five years....Bowling Green will be building Vettes, GMC will be building Trucks and....?

4 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Not upvoting or downvoting this but it is irrational.  In woodworking...some technology is thousands of years old and works fine. Some CNC Routers might be obsolete 6 months after they are introduced.

yyyeeeeppp.

People thought automakers were immersed in 'planned obsolescence' -  that's the Prime Directive of the entire computer-involved industry.

5 hours ago, ocnblu said:

cut & run instead of fight... definition of a "retreat".

Nothing to do with Cadillac and GM but...

I just felt like quoting that quote. Its something my dad always said. I felt the need to be...my dad just now...  

And this is just the weirdest shyte ever. As Im here typing this nonsense to you, the TV is on the the movie Walking Tall is playing. Im not really watching it, but then a song comes on...

My dad used to sing that all the time...

I love you dad! I miss you!  

4 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Not upvoting or downvoting this but it is irrational.  In woodworking...some technology is thousands of years old and works fine. Some CNC Routers might be obsolete 6 months after they are introduced. 

Newer is not always better, old is not always bad.

My friend I totally agree with you in regards to wood working, but then we are not talking the amazing fine craft of wood working or knife making such as Shun knifes that I bought for my wife. The Shun Knife company from Japan has been building all knifes the same way as they did their first Samurai Swords over 800+ years ago. Some things do get perfected and really there is no reason to change on certain types of fine craftsmanship.

Auto's on the other hand are a tad bit more complex and do evolve. That is the focus much like buildings that eventually loose their usefulness due to improved building methods.

Why do I still have my original bedroom set from when I was a child, something my great grandfather had. It is quality Hard wood dovetail built. I have not found any modern build furniture that can match it. 

So I get having things of quality that can last when taken care of, but auto's for the most part wear out and have to be replaced and moving forward with future better ways to build an auto over living with one way in the past is my thinking in my response.

If we never improved things, we would still be using lead paint, leaded gas and dying much younger.

"knifes" LOL

ICE will still he 85 plus percent of cars in 2030.

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

If we never improved things, we would still be using lead paint, leaded gas and dying much younger.

There have been LOADS of things, even within automobiles, that have been "improved" yet are far worse in actuality.

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Nothing to do with Cadillac and GM but...

I just felt like quoting that quote. Its something my dad always said. I felt the need to be...my dad just now...  

 

And this is just the weirdest shyte ever. As Im here typing this nonsense to you, the TV is on the the movie Walking Tall is playing. Im not really watching it, but then a song comes on...

My dad used to sing that all the time...

 

I love you dad! I miss you!  

 

 

Today my father would have been 80 had he lived...I miss him also. 

7 hours ago, balthazar said:

There have been LOADS of things, even within automobiles, that have been "improved" yet are far worse in actuality.

Ohhh absolutely. And while we are on the subject of liquid fuels...

Everything from railroad locomotives to Jet aircraft to spacecraft to god knows what else...only has a limited ability to be switched over to electric. We will be using liquid fuels and ICE for a LONG time....for the rest of the life of everyone reading this for sure. 

3 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Today my father would have been 80 had he lived...I miss him also. 

Ohhh absolutely. And while we are on the subject of liquid fuels...

Everything from railroad locomotives to Jet aircraft to spacecraft to god knows what else...only has a limited ability to be switched over to electric. We will be using liquid fuels and ICE for a LONG time....for the rest of the life of everyone reading this for sure. 

? Now where did I store that self regeneration fuel cell I have been holding onto till the right time to kill the oil companies and make myself the newest Billionaire.