Spying: Telling the Difference Between the Cadillac CT4 and CT5

Hard to tell alot from the disguised prototypes, but the greenhouses don't seem to have changed much from the ATS and CTS.

Agree with @Cubical-aka-Moltar Green house has not really changed and other than the license plate, it just looks like a scalled down size between the 3 CT versions. Truly hope they are clearly different looking.

A 'CT4' below a 'CT5' is going to be a complete mistake.
The only successful way forward is 1 sedan (and coupe please) below the CT6.

if these sedans do not address

-having actual nice interiors (on par with MB and Audi etc)

-usable back seats and cabin space, leg room and girth

-CUE problems

-engine / powertrain options that make sense and are clearly tiered (i.e. optional motor actually performs significantly different, V sport available with AWD, turbo with improved operating characteristics, new turbo six optional)

-get rid of goofy styling and MAYBE even border on stunning

then what is the point

maybe this is why Johan said fk it

i mean honestly, this doesn't look like any significant movement on the styling meter.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

A 'CT4' below a 'CT5' is going to be a complete mistake.
The only successful way forward is 1 sedan (and coupe please) below the CT6.

I agree mostly but would make an exception if they did a CT3 on a FWD based chassis to compete with A3 and A class, and if they did that to also skip having a true competitor for the 3 series / C class size.  I would rely on the CT5 as the RWD torch bearer in that case.  Then there would be clear distinction in purpose between the small entry Caddy and the CT5.

ATS is selling at about 16K units US, A3 at about 20K. ATS starts @ $39K, A3 @ $32K. IMO, that's close enough to be cross-shopped.
Bringing out a new model name/structure than the ATS, but smaller & cheaper & FWD, is a recipe for sales disaster.

Cadillac doesn't have the volume to reach farther downstream, nor should it via its intended reputation. I LIKE the fact that audi starts at less than the median new car price, and Cadillac is healthily above it, and hang the extra 4K units/yr.

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

A 'CT4' below a 'CT5' is going to be a complete mistake.
The only successful way forward is 1 sedan (and coupe please) below the CT6.

Probably true, they could price the CT4 at $24,900 and the Equinox would outsell it 3 to 1 because it is a crossover.  Bringing 2 new sedans to a market that isn't buying sedans isn't really a path to success, unless their sedan is insanely good.  Plus you have the Tesla Model 3 now on sale sucking up market share like crazy in this price range. 

3 hours ago, regfootball said:

if these sedans do not address

-having actual nice interiors (on par with MB and Audi etc)

-usable back seats and cabin space, leg room and girth

-CUE problems

-engine / powertrain options that make sense and are clearly tiered (i.e. optional motor actually performs significantly different, V sport available with AWD, turbo with improved operating characteristics, new turbo six optional)

-get rid of goofy styling and MAYBE even border on stunning

 

then what is the point

maybe this is why Johan said fk it

 

i mean honestly, this doesn't look like any significant movement on the styling meter.

 

All true, but sedans are sitting on dealer lots, not flying off them.  Cadillac has had criticism to make an interior on par with Audi for like 20 years and hasn't done it yet, so I don't expect that to change.  If the Alpha platform continues on, where do you get interior space?  

Maybe they do new engines, they have the 4.2 V8, I would 100% drop that in a CT4-V, if you want to battle AMG you better bring the V8s.  But then you have to battle Tesla, so you need EV's at some point too

Most car companies say how they will have dramatic, cutting edge styling to attract buyers, Hyundai just made that claim too, and it never happens.  First off, all these cars are designed in a wind tunnel, secondly they have to meet pedestrian impact standards so all the hoods are the same height, then they have to side impact crash tests so the belt line gets high, etc

So I don't really know what the CT4 and CT5 will do to succeed where the ATS, CTS and STS all failed.  What is different this time around?

ATS & CTS have not "failed". ATS is selling 80% of the volume of the A3, but it starts 20+% higher in price. It has also set the segment benchmark in driving dynamics, and has far better packaging than the identical-sized MBCLA.
Model 3 was unveiled in March of 2016, and only finally had 2 decent and 1 really good month last month. But the lug nuts on Tesla are loose and backing off, and Model 3 deposit cancellations have skyrocketed.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

All true, but sedans are sitting on dealer lots, not flying off them.  Cadillac has had criticism to make an interior on par with Audi for like 20 years and hasn't done it yet, so I don't expect that to change.  If the Alpha platform continues on, where do you get interior space?  

Maybe they do new engines, they have the 4.2 V8, I would 100% drop that in a CT4-V, if you want to battle AMG you better bring the V8s.  But then you have to battle Tesla, so you need EV's at some point too

Most car companies say how they will have dramatic, cutting edge styling to attract buyers, Hyundai just made that claim too, and it never happens.  First off, all these cars are designed in a wind tunnel, secondly they have to meet pedestrian impact standards so all the hoods are the same height, then they have to side impact crash tests so the belt line gets high, etc

So I don't really know what the CT4 and CT5 will do to succeed where the ATS, CTS and STS all failed.  What is different this time around?

lol good point.  remember in Hyundai's case, when they dropped the 2011 Sonata bomb on the market, the perception of their brand styling changed overnight.

Cadillac had that happen in 92 with the Seville and STS and maybe we can count the original CTS on that.  The 96 Aurora outdid any Cadillac in terms of style (it was supposed to be a Cadillac, right?).  Apart from that its hard to remember many Cadillacs as memorable styling for what, over 30 years?

Cadillac has reduced itself to a trim package for GM cars, not much more.  Except for the rare few V's and now CT6 v8 models.

side note, is it possible the CT5 is a hatchback?  

41 minutes ago, balthazar said:

ATS & CTS have not "failed". ATS is selling 80% of the volume of the A3, but it starts 20+% higher in price. It has also set the segment benchmark in driving dynamics, and has far better packaging than the identical-sized MBCLA.
Model 3 was unveiled in March of 2016, and only finally had 2 decent and 1 really good month last month. But the lug nuts on Tesla are loose and backing off, and Model 3 deposit cancellations have skyrocketed.

If the ATS and CTS aren’t failures why are both getting cancelled?  Both are slow sellers, compare an ATS to 3-Series sales as that was their original target.  CTS is under 1,000 units a month and it is a car with very little international volume.  Both combined sell less than the CTS did in 2006 and the market has grown since then.  

Model 3 was a procruon disaster before but it won’t be by the time either of these cars hit the market.

My impression is that the CT4 is just a heavy refresh of the ATS with Escala headlights grafted on.

Which will doom the car to an early death.

I think Cadillac would fare better with the Genesis approach.

Now the G70 I feel will take the Cadillac CT4 to town everywhere except driving dynamics. 

CT4 = ATS. Same segment, next generation, new name.

Quote

Apart from that its hard to remember many Cadillacs as memorable styling for what, over 30 years?

So where are you looking for 'memorable styling' in sedans from the last 30 years?

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

If the ATS and CTS aren’t failures why are both getting cancelled?  Both are slow sellers, compare an ATS to 3-Series sales as that was their original target.  CTS is under 1,000 units a month and it is a car with very little international volume.  Both combined sell less than the CTS did in 2006 and the market has grown since then.  

Model 3 was a procruon disaster before but it won’t be by the time either of these cars hit the market.

2

They aren't. They're getting renamed. Just like the ML wasn't canceled, it was renamed GLE.

12 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They aren't. They're getting renamed. Just like the ML wasn't canceled, it was renamed GLE.

And yet they refuse to rename the Escalade, so they don’t have to rename anything.  If the CT4 is just a refreshed ATS with a new name that product will fail.  

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And yet they refuse to rename the Escalade, so they don’t have to rename anything.  If the CT4 is just a refreshed ATS with a new name that product will fail.  

 

Why? Why can't it be a heavy refresh?  The ATS is the best handler in the entry-level segment.  The Alpha platform is excellent. 

A new look and new interior will do wonders for the car... especially if it looks like a baby Escala. 

And Escalade has more brand equity in its markets than any single BMW, Benz, or Audi.... renaming it would be criminal.  Just like Navigator.

What REALLY would make sense is MB having an 'A', 'C', 'E'... and then to maintain consistancy- make the CLS the 'G' and the s-class the 'I'. Every other letter of the alphabet... for consistancy's sake. Would like to see that happen.

31 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The ATS is the best handler in the entry-level segment.  The Alpha platform is excellent. 

It is yet nobody really seems to care. The buying public is okay with the softer rides of the A4, C-Class, and 3 Series. 

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It is yet nobody really seems to care. The buying public is okay with the softer rides of the A4, C-Class, and 3 Series. 

Public needs to make up their effing minds. 12 years ago Cadillac was "too soft" with the CTS.

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Public needs to make up their effing minds. 12 years ago Cadillac was "too soft" with the CTS.

lol I won't disagree with that! 

The buying public, in general, is just the complete opposite of what most enthusiasts want. Too bad they outnumber us 99-1 and most enthusiasts don't buy new because they know the depreciation and that they don't keep them long enough anyway.

10 hours ago, regfootball said:

side note, is it possible the CT5 is a hatchback?  

I get the feeling that it will be a regular sedan.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Why? Why can't it be a heavy refresh?  The ATS is the best handler in the entry-level segment.  The Alpha platform is excellent. 

A new look and new interior will do wonders for the car... especially if it looks like a baby Escala. 

And Escalade has more brand equity in its markets than any single BMW, Benz, or Audi.... renaming it would be criminal.  Just like Navigator.

It will all be epic fail if they don't carve out more leg room in the back.  Use the ATS-L chassis then.  Believe me every year when i go to autoshows and am in the cadillac area i hear people bitch about how the ATS is a useless car due to its back seat.  Cadillac forgot a lot of its base are large muhricans and even if the ATS were as comfortable as a c class in the rear it would be ok.  But its not.  Cadillac buyers expect more usable space.  Between the useless interior and cheap interior (and pricing) is why the ATS isn't lighting up the sales charts.

So, to redo the car and not fix any of that, they might as well not try.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Why? Why can't it be a heavy refresh?  The ATS is the best handler in the entry-level segment.  The Alpha platform is excellent. 

A new look and new interior will do wonders for the car... especially if it looks like a baby Escala. 

And Escalade has more brand equity in its markets than any single BMW, Benz, or Audi.... renaming it would be criminal.  Just like Navigator.

I thought the Alfa Romeo Guilia was the new handling champ.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Public needs to make up their effing minds. 12 years ago Cadillac was "too soft" with the CTS.

Maybe Cadillac needs to have a better grasp on what the buying public wants.  They totally missed on crossovers, Lexus has 4 SUVs and is still missing a good 3 row so they rushed out a 3 row RX.  Really you need 5 SUVs in today’s world to compete because sedans aren’t selling.  

Cadillac thought the ATS would conquest 3-Series sales, it didn’t happen, adding $10,000 to the CTS and moving it up market was a mistake.  Traditional Cadillac buyers have never heard of the Nurburgring so they didn’t care about handling, but that is what Cadillac tried to sell.  

The only successful Cadillac in the past 10 years has been the Escalade and that is partly because SUVs are on fire, and there has been little competition in that segment, but now the Navigator is back, new GLS, X7, Q8 are coming, Tesla has the Model X,  Bentley and Rolls are in the SUV game, etc.  That market will get crowded fast.

9 minutes ago, regfootball said:

It will all be epic fail if they don't carve out more leg room in the back.  Use the ATS-L chassis then.  Believe me every year when i go to autoshows and am in the cadillac area i hear people bitch about how the ATS is a useless car due to its back seat.  Cadillac forgot a lot of its base are large muhricans and even if the ATS were as comfortable as a c class in the rear it would be ok.  But its not.  Cadillac buyers expect more usable space.  Between the useless interior and cheap interior (and pricing) is why the ATS isn't lighting up the sales charts.

 

So, to redo the car and not fix any of that, they might as well not try.

I thought the Alfa Romeo Guilia was the new handling champ.

Very good points and even the CTS has a small back seat for how large a car it is. With the CTS’s wheelbase there should be XTS level room in that car. 

I wonder what % of Cadillac buyers are men, vs BMW or Audi buyers?  Because I feel like Cadillac appeals more to men, who on average are taller than women, so that leg room complaint comes up more often.

And yes the Alfa Romeo is the performance champ and it has over 500 hp.  The ATS-V is down on power, needs a V8.

43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Very good points and even the CTS has a small back seat for how large a car it is. With the CTS’s wheelbase there should be XTS level room in that car.  

I assume the RWD proportions are part of that issue.   The XTS is FWD with a 3 inch shorter wheelbase than the CTS, but has more legroom due to the proportions?   In a FWD sedan, it seems the interior gets a bigger % of the wheelbase than with RWD.   How does the CTS rear seat space compare to it's competitors like the 5-series, E-class, etc? 

I've noticed that difference in older Cadillacs--the DTS had a wheelbase within an inch of the RWD STS, but felt roomier in the backseat, IMO. 

15 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I assume the RWD proportions are part of that issue.   The XTS is FWD with a 3 inch shorter wheelbase than the CTS, but has more legroom due to the proportions?   In a FWD sedan, it seems the interior gets a bigger % of the wheelbase than with RWD.   How does the CTS rear seat space compare to it's competitors like the 5-series, E-class, etc? 

I've noticed that difference in older Cadillacs--the DTS had a wheelbase within an inch of the RWD STS, but felt roomier in the backseat, IMO. 

That is easy to explain.  FWD cars have no transmission tunnel, unlike RWD cars.

3 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

That is easy to explain.  FWD cars have no transmission tunnel, unlike RWD cars.

Not talking about that, talking about legroom--fore-aft distance.    And FWD cars usually do have a tunnel, for the exhaust system or driveshaft (on FWD/AWD models). 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac thought the ATS would conquest 3-Series sales, it didn’t happen.

I love it when random people claim to know the "thoughts" of an inanimate entity / company. Short of a specific official public release, it's fantasy.

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

I love it when random people claim to know the "thoughts" of an inanimate entity / company. Short of a specific official public release, it's fantasy.

Well, the 3 series is the obvious target of a car like the ATS, since the 3 series is the market leader. 

New Escalade in 18 months or less. 

And you still can't give Cadillac credit for the SRX and XT5 spanking the Germans soundly for years in sales. I don't give a eff about exterior dimensions. The Cadillac outsold the same priced German crossover for years.

Quote

Well, the 3 series is the obvious target of a car like the ATS, since the 3 series is the market leader. 

Sure, but where/when did Cadillac state it was planning on eclipsing it's sales?
For that matter, has MB ever claimed its c-class 'will eclipse the 3-series sales'? in 2017, the 3-series outsold the C-class 3:1.

If selling in the #1 spot = 'success', aren't, by definition, all other entries in the same segment 'failures'? Or is that just ridiculous?

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Sure, but where/when did Cadillac state it was planning on eclipsing it's sales?
For that matter, has MB ever claimed its c-class 'will eclipse the 3-series sales'? in 2017, the 3-series outsold the C-class 3:1.

Point taken.  Probably  made claims like that on internal sales goal documents, but not publicly.  

26 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Not talking about that, talking about legroom--fore-aft distance.    And FWD cars usually do have a tunnel, for the exhaust system or driveshaft (on FWD/AWD models). 

Wouldn't the sideways engine also allow the dash and everything move forward some as well? 

Isn't the tunnel much smaller for exhaust than the driveshaft & exhaust though? 

This class of cars has been in a sales decline for years now, ATS did not sell well and its successor will likely meet the same fate of bargain leases to clear inventory.  The segment got more competitive, and buyers moved on the the X3 and the like.  I fail to see the point of investing money in the CT4 it unless it will sell decently in China.  I would rather see an X3, GLC competitor from Cadillac.

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Wouldn't the sideways engine also allow the dash and everything move forward some as well? 

Isn't the tunnel much smaller for exhaust than the driveshaft & exhaust though? 

Yes, and the tunnel is smaller.  Transverse engine FWD cars usually have a bigger interior space relative to the wheelbase because the firewall is closer to the front axle.  Often results in awkward styling, since w/ RWD the firewall-to-front axle distance is longer..

3 minutes ago, frogger said:

This class of cars has been in a sales decline for years now, ATS did not sell well and its successor will likely meet the same fate of bargain leases to clear inventory.  The segment got more competitive, and buyers moved on the the X3 and the like.  I fail to see the point of investing money in the CT4 it unless it will sell decently in China.  I would rather see an X3, GLC competitor from Cadillac.

Wish Granted:

XT4 and XT5.

20 minutes ago, balthazar said:

in 2017, the 3-series outsold the C-class 3:1.

3 & 4 Series sold 99,083 in 2017 

C Class sold 77,447 in 2017 

ATS sold 13,100 in 2017 

It's definitely not 3:1 3/4:C 

It's technically 1:0.78

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

3 & 4 Series sold 99,083 in 2017 

C Class sold 77,447 in 2017 

ATS sold 13,100 in 2017 

It's definitely not 3:1 3/4:C 

It's technically 1:0.78

Compact premium is a crowded space...also have the A3 and A4, IS/RC, Q-somethings from Infiniti, XE, Guilia, CLA....

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

3 & 4 Series sold 99,083 in 2017

Numbers from C&G December 2017 YTD charts :
c-class : 20,669
3-series : 59,449
(Images are down again right now- can't double-check, but thtose were the numbers I scribbled on a piece of paper).

Cubical :

Probably  made claims like that on internal sales goal documents, but not publicly.

Then, once again; none of us would know about it. Me, I've convinced such a claim was never made privately, either.

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Numbers from C&G December 2017 YTD charts :
c-class : 20,669
3-series : 59,449
(Images are down again right now- can't double-check, but thtose were the numbers I scribbled on a piece of paper).

Cubical :

Then, once again; none of us would know about it. Me, I've convinced such a claim was never made privately, either.

Johan de N seemed pretty ambitious...may have said something like that...doesn't matter, not going to happen...

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Wish Granted:

XT4 and XT5.

XT5 sales as of end of June 2018 - 31,890: Base price $40,570

X3 sales as of end of June 2018 - 24,750: Base price $41,000

GLC Sales as of end of June 2018 - 35,145: Base price $40,050

Q5 Sales as of end of June 2018 - 28,951: Base Price $41,500 

Cadillac is definitely competing against the Germans

14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Numbers from C&G December 2017 YTD charts :
c-class : 20,669
3-series : 59,449
(Images are down again right now- can't double-check, but thtose were the numbers I scribbled on a piece of paper).

Cubical :

Then, once again; none of us would know about it. Me, I've convinced such a claim was never made privately, either.

This is where I got mine from.. ?‍♂️

https://www.statista.com/statistics/287722/entry-luxury-vehicles-sales-by-make-in-the-united-states/

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

New Escalade in 18 months or less. 

And you still can't give Cadillac credit for the SRX and XT5 spanking the Germans soundly for years in sales. I don't give a eff about exterior dimensions. The Cadillac outsold the same priced German crossover for years.

Because there is only 1 crossover in a Cadillac showroom vs 3-4 in any of the German showrooms.  Add up X1, X2, X3, X5, X6 put together and that is no contest, likewise if you add GLC and GLE together.  This year in China the GLC has outsold the XT5 63,411 to 40,827.  The Germans aren't short on volume, worldwide they are top 3 by a wide margin.

New Escalade if they go with twin turbo V6 and the twin turbo V8 out of the CT6 V-sport and I heard independent rear suspension is coming they could have  strong contender.  But everyone else will have a strong contender too.  I also think there is room way above the current Escalade for an SUV in the $150-200,000 range.  

What do you mean they "could have a contender"?  They're still kicking butt now and it's one of the oldest lux SUVs out there.

Where Cadillac is competing in CUVs/SUVs, they do very very well. The XT4 is going to come in and do very well in its segment.

The X1/X2 are the same vehicle with different rooflines. The X5 and X6 ditto..... don't give BMW extra credit just for having name diarrhea. 

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The XT4 is going to come in and do very well in its segment.

What size is that, again? Is that X1/GLA sized or X3/GLE sized? Or, more than likely, is it in the middle? lol 

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

XT5 sales as of end of June 2018 - 31,890: Base price $40,570

X3 sales as of end of June 2018 - 24,750: Base price $41,000

GLC Sales as of end of June 2018 - 35,145: Base price $40,050

Q5 Sales as of end of June 2018 - 28,951: Base Price $41,500 

Cadillac is definitely competing against the Germans

After driving one due to a lease deal offer I quickly realized it was more of a good RX alternative vs a German competitor IMO.

Just now, ccap41 said:

What size is that, again? Is that X1/GLA sized or X3/GLE sized? Or, more than likely, is it in the middle? lol 

It is GLA/X1 priced (the figure that matters most) but with a usable sized interior and slightly smaller inside than the X3.

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

3 & 4 Series sold 99,083 in 2017 

C Class sold 77,447 in 2017 

ATS sold 13,100 in 2017 

It's definitely not 3:1 3/4:C 

It's technically 1:0.78

Nice effort from the ATS there.  And that is with price on their side.  This is why I don't see what they can do with the CT4 to correct that sales result.  And let's remember the USA is only the 3rd best sales market for the C-class and 3-series.

China 2017 sales:

C-class: 129,258

3-series: 123,206

ATS:  55,682

Europe 2017 sales:

C-class: 176,915

3/4-series: 129,053 + 64,710 = 193,763

All Cadillacs: 916

1 minute ago, frogger said:

After driving one due to a lease deal offer I quickly realized it was more of a good RX alternative vs a German competitor IMO.

It doesn't matter if it is a Lexus or an Acura or an Audi.....   They are more alike than different, so yes they compete.   Having a preference for size over sport or sport over size doesn't make one or the other better. .....at the end of the day, which ever company relieves your wallet of ~$45k won the sale.

The Cadillac being able to swallow two full size suitcases over the GLC which can barely take one (less cargo room than my Encore) makes it more of a luxury car than the GLC in my personal opinion.

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

Nice effort from the ATS there.  And that is with price on their side.  This is why I don't see what they can do with the CT4 to correct that sales result.  And let's remember the USA is only the 3rd best sales market for the C-class and 3-series.

China 2017 sales:

C-class: 129,258

3-series: 123,206

ATS:  55,682

Europe 2017 sales:

C-class: 176,915

3/4-series: 129,053 + 64,710 = 193,763

All Cadillacs: 916

 

That's a lot of Crown Vics.