Something EXCITING Is Coming From Cadillac January 21, 2022

Should have done this 10 years ago, but better late than never.

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Should have done this 10 years ago, but better late than never.

For an Escalade V?

What for?

Escalade doesnt need a V now either...

It DOES have a 455 horsepower V8 engine in it as is.  

To handle the twisties?

An Escalade wasnt marketed that way and it outsold and it continues to outsell everything it its class being what it is.  

Is it welcomed?

Why sure it is.  By you and by me.  But not the way you put it as the Escalade and Cadillac needed this a decade ago...

And about that, I dont think it a V Series Escalade will sell that many units anyhow.  Just because the Escalade has never been in a situation to require high performance and  high handling.   In actual fact, the Escalade was always required to be the opposite of that.   

It’s not remotely about volume- why you keep going here is puzzling.

What -‘low performance & low handling’?? ?

15 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

It DOES have a 455 horsepower V8 engine in it as is. 

420, no?

11 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It’s not remotely about volume- why you keep going here is puzzling.

What -‘low performance & low handling’?? ?

High performance and high handling like a CT5 V Blackwing.

I dont think an Escalade V Blackwing will set the world on fire like how a Hellcat powered anything caught the world on fire. An Escalade is not thought of in that way.   An Escalade was always about the bling. Not about the horsepower and how well it drifts. 

It WILL be a GREAT performer as Cadillac engineers have really  set the bar for performance sedans.  And I think Corvette engineers are also involved with Cadillac's V Series cars too.  But I doubt performance geeks will be geeking how fast it is.    Not like how they geek out with anything Hellcat... 

No, a vehicle like this is not about volume. It will be a special model, that is for sure, and they will sell everyone they build, but an Escalade V Blackwing will do nothing to move more Escalades or Cadillacs out the dealership door as the Escalade is as big of a Kahuna as is.

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

420, no?

I thought it was 455.  Like the Camaro's LT1.  It is detuned...  

I wonder if it will have the CT5 6.2 supercharged V8 w/ 668hp? Probably with the 10 speed auto.  A 6spd manual version would be cool and unique.

Cadillac needs to out-Hellcat the Hellcat with 900hp versions of the CT5-V and Escalade-V.. call them the V-BAMF... 

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

 

I thought it was 455.  Like the Camaro's LT1.  It is detuned...  

 

420 according to the Wikipedia. 

^^^  Thanx.   I knew it had a detuned LT1 @ 420 with the previous gen, but I wrongfully thought with the new gen that they upgraded its power to match the Camaro's. 

3 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

^^^  Thanx.   I knew it had a detuned LT1 @ 420 with the previous gen, but I wrongfully thought with the new gen that they upgraded its power to match the Camaro's. 

Apparently the output hasn't changed since 2015.  The 6.2 L86/L87 has been available in all the GM full size trucks and SUVs since then apparently.

Then Cadillac should up the ante then. WTF Cadillac???  

Seriously though, that goes to show you how unimportant horsepower wars are to the Cadillac Escalade.

A Silverado though, does need a Raptor/TRX competitor. 

23 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

The 6.2 L86/L87 has been available in all the GM full size trucks and SUVs since then apparently.

It is restricted to upper trims in the trucks/SUVs, standard in the Escalade.

Agreed- would have liked to see the 6.2 have gotten an output bump when the '21 came out.

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

For an Escalade V?

What for?

Escalade doesnt need a V now either...

It DOES have a 455 horsepower V8 engine in it as is.  

To handle the twisties?

An Escalade wasnt marketed that way and it outsold and it continues to outsell everything it its class being what it is.  

Is it welcomed?

Why sure it is.  By you and by me.  But not the way you put it as the Escalade and Cadillac needed this a decade ago...

And about that, I dont think it a V Series Escalade will sell that many units anyhow.  Just because the Escalade has never been in a situation to require high performance and  high handling.   In actual fact, the Escalade was always required to be the opposite of that.   

 

420 hp, but regardless.  An Escalade-V will still handle like crap, but people will pay for it because it is the V.  It is easy profit margin for GM, they can put a supercharger on, beef up the brakes and suspension a little and charge an extra $30,000 for it.  And people will pay it because it they'll want bragging rights that they have the V and the other guy just has a regular one.

All those Hellcat vehicles make no sense, but people are paying $80k for a Charger which is an otherwise terrible car.  This is easy profit margin for GM, that is why they should have done it 10 years ago.

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

I wonder if it will have the CT5 6.2 supercharged V8 w/ 668hp? Probably with the 10 speed auto.  A 6spd manual version would be cool and unique.

Cadillac needs to out-Hellcat the Hellcat with 900hp versions of the CT5-V and Escalade-V.. call them the V-BAMF... 

 

You'd think a supercharged 6.2, but also I would think it would be all wheel drive, so it depends on what GM's all wheel drive system can handle.

The Camaro has like 650 hp at the top end I think, I would expect something around 650, and I wouldn't be surprised if the exact same powertrain is in an Silverado and Sierra as a competitor to the Ram TRX and Raptor R.  

I don't think they really need out out-hellcat the Hellcat, because let's say you are a die hard Ram fan, you aren't going to buy a Silverado Trail Boss ZR1 just because it has 755 hp and the TRX has 707.   But what GM probably wants is to get people willing to spend $100k on an Escalade, to spend $140k on that Escalade, or people willing to spend $70k on a Silverado to spend $100k on that same Silverado because they put a supercharger on it and a ZR1 badge.  You can probably eek out an additional $20k in profit on top of the $10k in profit they are already making on these big trucks.

They make a lot more than $10K on trucks.

It's been pointed out before, but here it is again- there are a handful of aftermarket tuners that have gotten way more than 650 HP out of an Escalade, I've no doubt the running gear can handle it. And with the current generation (or a next one) of the MR suspension, it should handle amazingly good- look at what Cadillac did with the Blackwings- shot to the top in chassis dynamics / performance.

Press release,  liking what I see so far.

https://media.cadillac.com/media/us/en/cadillac/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2022/jan/0121-escaladev.html

More details to be released Spring 2022 for this 2023 V model.

Lots of pictures at the link above.

If  Cadillac does a 650hp Escalade V edition then expect the aftermarket tuners to knock on 1,000 hp rides.

17 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

For an Escalade V?

What for?

Escalade doesnt need a V now either...

It DOES have a 455 horsepower V8 engine in it as is.  

To handle the twisties?

An Escalade wasnt marketed that way and it outsold and it continues to outsell everything it its class being what it is.  

Is it welcomed?

Why sure it is.  By you and by me.  But not the way you put it as the Escalade and Cadillac needed this a decade ago...

And about that, I dont think it a V Series Escalade will sell that many units anyhow.  Just because the Escalade has never been in a situation to require high performance and  high handling.   In actual fact, the Escalade was always required to be the opposite of that.   

 

He's not wrong. This should have been done a decade ago because it would have been easy cash for Cadillac/GM. They had the expensive bit already paid for and the technology for the suspension stuff. They really only needed to engineer an AWD system capable of this output. 

There's no doubt in my mind that they would have sold every one they build for the last ten years. 

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

it should handle amazingly good

It'll be amazingly good *for what it is*. 

It looks nice but I still miss the vertical headlights. I wish they would have kept that signature item on the newest gen. 

1 hour ago, David said:

 

I'd  Cadillac does a 650hp Escalade V edition then expect the aftermarket tuners to knock on 1,000 he rides.

I'm sure Hennessy will do one, if they haven't already...

So Cadillac decided on this application that just "V" is sufficient and doesn't need "V Blackwing" here

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

So Cadillac decided on this application that just "V" is sufficient and doesn't need "V Blackwing" here

They have not ruled it out, they say more to still come, so they could still do a BlackWing edition.

I honestly could see using the 1,000hp tri motor Ultium in detuned form for an Escalade V and full power for a BlackWing edition with 0-60 in 3 seconds!

OK, work is done for the day, I can now that I am out of meetings post more than the link.

Gotta love the images!!!

 

Loving this blacked out version of the Escalade, best look yet I think. Only thing that would make it better is as @ccap41 stated, they should have kept the Vertical Headlights over the ones that are also on the Chevrolet and GMC.

That’s all they released????

Some tweaks to the fascias which I can’t tell the difference between the V and the Sport trim, other than some V badges.

I didn’t expect much styling change but I would have thought they would reveal the engine and specs.  I don’t see the point of showing a few exterior shots when we all know it is a 6.2 supercharged V8 because GM doesn’t have any other engine to put in it.

Everything south of the grille/headlights is different. That said, it's not much of a change... but the Escalade doesn't have a wide appearance range between the 5 trims.

Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if it got the 4.0TT from the CT6-V - 550 / 640 is a nice jump from 420/460.

The Blackwing V8 is dead, they won't use a twin turbo V6, so that leaves the Supercharged 6.2 or the Corvette Z06 DOHC V8, which they won't use that.  I can't see them doing a performance hybrid either, easiest thing is to slap a supercharger on the existing engine and call it a day.

Ok...Ill concede and retract my post to @smk4565 and admit that I am wrong about Cadillac not needing a V Series Escalade (a decade ago)

I see the point of view of making additional money from a platform that needed not a whole lot of engineering to make it work.

Like @ccap41 said, an AWD system to handle the HP and torque.  

Independent suspension would have had to come a decade earlier as well though.  The only thing I see as a flaw is that a decade ago, GM was fresh out of bankruptcy and maybe GM didnt necessarily have the cash at hand to do this.

 The SBC V8 was always part of Escalade therefore adding the supercharger should have been standard issue as Corvettes, Camaros and Cadillac sedans have it...

Magnetic ride suspension has been part of GM since the late 1990s...

Yeah...all the pieces to the puzzle were right there a decade ago.

I will still hold on to my opinion though as to say that buyers of the  Escalade never really craved for a V version.  That and bankruptcy were probably the reasons why Cadillac took that long to offer a V version. 

And hence why Blackwing isnt part of the Escalade lexicon. Because people are not asking for one...

But then again, Ive given Chevrolet crap for not creating a brutish Camaro before Dodge ever created the Hellcat. I said that a Camaro is a follower rather than a leader and let Dodge define the horsepower wars and take the pony car reigns.  Therefore, Cadillac also, might have missed an opportunity to create something lustful before AMG or M or Hellcat with a V Series Escalade waaaay before anybody else...

'Easiest thing' would to have never built the Blackwings, but Cadillac did.

And I'm sure the tooling for the 4.0TT is still in-house.  Not saying they'll do it, but I'm sure the 'books' on the 4.0 TT could use some more volume to amortize the R&D costs there.  What makes strong sense is the power levels as is are a nice mid-point between 420 and 668.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/03/cadillac-chief-engineer-hints-at-high-performance-escalade-v/

Reason why Escalade does not get Blackwing designation is that Cadillac engineers and marketing folk want to reserve that for vehicles that will be the pinnacle of performance and track capabilities.  And an Escalade, due to weight and high center of gravity, will not have that.   From March 7, 2021 when Cadillac head engineer Tony Roma was hinting at an Escalade V.  He said that not all Cadillac vehicles need to be Blackwings and proceeded to explain that statement. 

Nothing is written in stone,  but in Nov of 2019, the report was that the Blackwing 4.0 V8 was not going to power the Escalade.  Cost cutting measures were to be implemented on the Escalade as  the cost of independent suspension development for the Escalade used up all the allocated development money for the Escalade and therefore the cheaper SBC V8 was to used instead.  But that was in 2019.   Its 2022 now... 

Listening to the video, and maybe I need to clean out the wax from my ears, but the sound of that engine coming from the Escalade V did not sound like how a Corvette usually sounds like.  

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/11/report-blackwing-v8-wont-appear-in-cadillac-escalade-ct5-v/

In the case of the Escalade, the source told the publication that the SUV’s new independent rear suspension has sucked up a lot of the development funds allocated to the program, so GM has decided to settle for one of its pushrod V8s instead of the DOHC V8. GM may use its 6.2-liter L87 V8 in the SUV, which produces 420 horsepower and 460 pound-feet of torque. We also know a high-performance Escalade variant is under development, but if this new report is accurate, that variant will likely use the supercharged 6.2-liter LT4 V8 from the C7 Corvette Z06 and Camaro ZL1 rather than the Blackwing V8.

12 hours ago, balthazar said:

'Easiest thing' would to have never built the Blackwings, but Cadillac did.

And I'm sure the tooling for the 4.0TT is still in-house.  Not saying they'll do it, but I'm sure the 'books' on the 4.0 TT could use some more volume to amortize the R&D costs there.  What makes strong sense is the power levels as is are a nice mid-point between 420 and 668.

The Blackwings just recycled the engines from the ATS-V and CTS-V.  It isn' like they took the CT6 turbo 4.2 V8 and put it in the CT5 or CT4 which was at least an engine designed for Cadillac.  And they didn't do a performance hybrid or anything new.  Which is why I think they'll recycled the supercharged 6.2 for the Escalade-V because GM probably doesn't want a spend a dime on ICE engine development anymore, basically what they have now is what is going to exist to 2030.

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Blackwings just recycled the engines from the ATS-V and CTS-V.  It isn' like they took the CT6 turbo 4.2 V8 and put it in the CT5 or CT4 which was at least an engine designed for Cadillac.  And they didn't do a performance hybrid or anything new.  Which is why I think they'll recycled the supercharged 6.2 for the Escalade-V because GM probably doesn't want a spend a dime on ICE engine development anymore, basically what they have now is what is going to exist to 2030.

Correct the same thing all the German brands have been doing and are doing now till 2030 when they also are scheduled to kill off all ICE sales. Maximize money potential while improving the BEV.

I can totally see an Escalade V and Escalade V Blackwing in BEV using the 1,000 hp tri motor setup. You get the V at 750 hp and the Blackwing at 1,000 hp with a 0-60 3 sec run. Best yet is as @oldshurst442 posted, performance will be way better due to a lower center of gravity with the battery pack versus ICE.

Best is yet to come for Escalade.

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Blackwings just recycled the engines from the ATS-V and CTS-V.

Cancel a model / powertrain and its "failed".
Continue a model / powertrain and its "recycled".

OK, bucko.  

It does seem insane that GM would invest in a new engine and use it in only in a few hundred cars over a 2 yr period.  Had to have been a very costly mistake... I guess it was victim of timing...had it been out in 2010,  maybe it would have had some success...but typical GM, come out with something late, then cancel quickly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_twin-turbo_V8

^ I don't think I would call it a 'mistake' - dozens upon dozens of very rare engines have been built over time. I do think Cadillac should have kept the CT6 (and the 4.2TT - my bad on calling it a 4.0L earlier) in production until the Celestiq / a replacement model was ready.

7 hours ago, David said:

Correct the same thing all the German brands have been doing and are doing now till 2030 when they also are scheduled to kill off all ICE sales. Maximize money potential while improving the BEV.

I can totally see an Escalade V and Escalade V Blackwing in BEV using the 1,000 hp tri motor setup. You get the V at 750 hp and the Blackwing at 1,000 hp with a 0-60 3 sec run. Best yet is as @oldshurst442 posted, performance will be way better due to a lower center of gravity with the battery pack versus ICE.

Best is yet to come for Escalade.

Mercedes is going to performance hybrids based on their F1 car.  I think BMW and Audi want to milk their V8 as long as they can until that gets replaced with EV's and then probably same for their 6 cylinder.  

Really, this might be the last ICE Escalade, this generation probably gets them to 2026-27, they want to make Cadillac an EV only brand, I'd imagine the next Gen is just an EV.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is going to performance hybrids

Giving up on the 'failing' EVs already, Daimler?

I would call the cancelation of the Blackwing a fail on General Motor's part (and Cadillac's) because billions of dollars of R&D went into it with the idea to make it an exclusive V8 for Cadillac.  To elevate Cadillac's image with a 'modern' V8 (no in-block cams, OHV and pushrods) only to offer it in a 1 year only, high performance sedan that billions of dollars of R&D also went into,  just to kill them off both with only a handful being sold.   

The REAL stupid thing about that is that the CT6 V Blackwing was sold out within minutes of it being on the market changing Cadillac's mind and making another limited but short production run of them.  Sold out within minutes yet again...

Another stupid thing about the Blackwing V8, not with the engine and engineering  itself, but with the engineering of the consequent vehicles after the CT6.  

The Blackwing V8  does not fit into the CT5.  The engine is too high and too wide  to fit inside of the CT5's  engine bay.  OK...an argument SHALL be made in that why do people think cam in-block, OHV, pushrod V8s are old and inferior tech?    Shytty biased automotive journalism and self hatin', fake car enthusiasts could be blamed.  

So...a 'lesser' V8 continues to power the Cadillac super sedan negating the supposed need for a 'modern' DOHC, 32 valve, hot vee turbo engine.   The LT1 V8 aint so bad after all watching all the real and fake automotive journalists and youtubers and enthusiast sport car drivers swoon over the CT5 V Blackwing AND wishing the LT1 ALSO powered the CT4...       

 IF billions of dollars of R&D money went into the Blackwing V8, and the Escalade had too many expensive upgrades to initially launch the Escalade with a Blackwing V8 under the hood, that also eludes to the Blackwing V8 being a mistake and a fail.  GM and Cadillac didnt count on canceling the CT6 program that early.  

Talking about discontinued engines...

Im intrigued with the Atlas inline 6  from GM 20 years ago.  

It was an aluminium block, DOHC inline 6 with all the 'modern' tech goodies that Eurosnobs drooled over.  I understand why this engine never went beyond the GMT360  platform. All successive small and midsized SUVs from GM went FWD and therefore transverse V configuration engines were needed in those applications.  Inline 6s dont fit...

But, yet again, I dont understand the thinking behind spending years and lots of money (I read that these engines were thought of when the Quad 4 was being created and started being developed alongside the Quad 4 production)  only to engineer future platforms not being able to use them.   Its great that the GMT360 got full use of these engines, but GM did NOTHING special with them.  They were in utilitarian, BOF SUVs.  Its great that the Oldsmobile version got the refinement from an inline 6, but Chevy and GMC versions were not marketed to be suave.  These SUVs were in the middle concerning family hauling duties and heavy duty sport utility usage.  

The engineering of this engine, when one was reading the engineering specs of it, and that person missed the part where it said that these engines were to be found in General Motors, BOF sport utility vehicles, that person would think these engines were BMW's latest and greatest put into their 3 and 5 Series sport sedans. 

Inline 6

Aluminum block and cylinder heads

DOHC, 4 valves/cylinder with VVT (maybe not the Vanos system, but would a eurosnob BMW "enthusiast" know the difference?) 

coil-on-plug ignition system

electronic throttle control (20 years ago...)

How cool would have it been if THIS engine as a base powerplant,  powered a 1st gen CTS and an (eventual RWD) STS?

270 HP and 275 ft/lbs torque at its initial launch and later getting close to 300.  

But was this engine meant for cars?  Because the 4 and 5 cylinder versions of these were pick-up truck and SUV (Hummer H3) engines.    At a time when Cadillac was figuring out what it needed to do to BE a BMW fighter, maybe THIS engine should have been used in their sport sedans rather than these engines be truck engines... 

And THIS is why Im intrigued by the Atlas.   What could have been keeps popping up in my mind... 

32 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Talking about discontinued engines...

Im intrigued with the Atlas inline 6  from GM 20 years ago.  

It was an aluminium block, DOHC inline 6 with all the 'modern' tech goodies that Eurosnobs drooled over.  I understand why this engine never went beyond the GMT360  platform. All successive small and midsized SUVs from GM went FWD and therefore transverse V configuration engines were needed in those applications.  Inline 6s dont fit...

But, yet again, I dont understand the thinking behind spending years and lots of money (I read that these engines were thought of when the Quad 4 was being created and started being developed alongside the Quad 4 production)  only to engineer future platforms not being able to use them.   Its great that the GMT360 got full use of these engines, but GM did NOTHING special with them.  They were in utilitarian, BOF SUVs.  Its great that the Oldsmobile version got the refinement from an inline 6, but Chevy and GMC versions were not marketed to be suave.  These SUVs were in the middle concerning family hauling duties and heavy duty sport utility usage.  

The engineering of this engine, when one was reading the engineering specs of it, and that person missed the part where it said that these engines were to be found in General Motors, BOF sport utility vehicles, that person would think these engines were BMW's latest and greatest put into their 3 and 5 Series sport sedans. 

Inline 6

Aluminum block and cylinder heads

DOHC, 4 valves/cylinder with VVT (maybe not the Vanos system, but would a eurosnob BMW "enthusiast" know the difference?) 

coil-on-plug ignition system

electronic throttle control (20 years ago...)

 

How cool would have it been if THIS engine as a base powerplant,  powered a 1st gen CTS and an (eventual RWD) STS?

270 HP and 275 ft/lbs torque at its initial launch and later getting close to 300.  

But was this engine meant for cars?  Because the 4 and 5 cylinder versions of these were pick-up truck and SUV (Hummer H3) engines.    At a time when Cadillac was figuring out what it needed to do to BE a BMW fighter, maybe THIS engine should have been used in their sport sedans rather than these engines be truck engines... 

And THIS is why Im intrigued by the Atlas.   What could have been keeps popping up in my mind... 

 

 

Yeah, never used beyond the GMT-360s.  But the 00s were a turbulent time for GM, they eventually gave up on the GMT-360s so the engine went away when they went away.

Probably would have been too big for Cadillac RWD sedans which were designed for V6s and V8s..and the rest of GM's sedans in the US were FWD then. 

Yes, the CTS and RWD STS were engineered to have V configured engines in their engine bays.  

But that is what is intriguing me. Is there something that I dont know about the Atlas family of inline engines, especially the 6 cylinder one, that makes them ONLY truck based engines?

Because clearly GM could have engineered, (maybe NOT a 1st gen CTS, because it was already engineered for a V6) but the 2nd gen CTS and 1st gen RWD STS, (same platform too right?) to have this inline 6 under the hood and thus prolonging the life of the Atlas family.    Recycling of these engines as SMK put it above, would have been great for Cadillac's BMW fighting image...  

I wanna know if the Atlas family of engines were only truck engines.  But they were aluminum in construction so technically they were light enough for car usage.   Its clear that GM had scalable usage in mind when designing these as the 4,5 and 6 cylinder versions all shared components with each other.  They were the same engines basically...    

Why spend all that money, time and effort only to get a single usage out of them?   Even if these engines were scalable to have base small Canyon pick-up trucks use the 4 cylinder version, the H3 Hummer and the upper level pick-up trucks to use the 5 cylinder and with the various versions of the GMT360 SUV (Trailblazer, Envoy, ,Rainier, SAAB, Bravada and Isuzu) use the 6 cylinder and not being able to use them further in cars?

To repeat my point, these engines were seemingly  great for sport sedan usage. 

Or..... use the 277 HP/460 TRQ all-aluminum, DOHC/4-valve Duramax TD in the sport sedan. Same configuration, 1.2 less liters displacement, 200 more TRQ... undoubtedly could be tuned higher; win-win-win.

13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

only to get a single usage out of them?

5 displacements, 10 different model lines... what was the production volume??

- - - - -
This whole 'they don't make it anymore so it's a "failure"' mindset has to die.  It's illegitimate.

Trends/ needs/ regulations/ demographics/ product planning change all the time, and many times, 'good things' get discontinued for the same reasons.  I'll repeat myself ; when GM keeps something around for years & years, it's 'bad'.  When they discontinue something after a few years it's 'bad'.

Are we sure it's the longevity/lack thereof that's the problem... or is it just because it's GM? 

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Or..... use the 277 HP/460 TRQ all-aluminum, DOHC/4-valve Duramax TD in the sport sedan. Same configuration, 1.2 less liters displacement, 200 more TRQ... undoubtedly could be tuned higher; win-win-win.

5 displacements, 6 different brand's models. What was the production volume??

true and true

I even mentioned it myself about the different brands using it and saying single usage in the same breath...

I guess I wanted to see this engine used in a car that I have failed to see that even if it was a (not so) short production run, it was a successful one.   

I guess its also because Im used to seeing GM's engines live longer than one generation.  

2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

When they discontinue something after a few years it's 'bad'.

Are we sure it's the longevity/lack thereof that's the problem... or is it just because it's GM? 

Not with me, if an engine is a great engine, I would like to see it evolve and be used in multiple roles. 

The Atlas is one.  The Blackwing V8 is another.  

The Northstar was a good engine. It had some minor engineering flaws that could have been addressed earlier in its production run, and GM did use it it multiple roles.  FWD. RWD.  Supercharged.  Lower displacement.  6 cylinder configuration.  In a sports car. The Shelby Series One.  As a race engine both as a 4.6 liter and as a 4.0 liter. 

I wanted the 6 cylinder version to be used in more vehicles though.  And I guess this is what I wanted from the Atlas.  To be showcased in a special kind of vehicle rather than be "wasted" on BOF SUVs that only lasted 1 generation. 

Going back to the Blackwing V8...

The Blackwing V8 is not like the Atlas family of engines.   Only a handful of these engines were produced. 

It maybe an expensive engine to build, but maybe the Escalade could benefit from it from making it a special kind of Escalade.   Maybe not as a V Series, but of an ultra luxurious Escalade to offset the cost of production.  And the Escalade itself could be a boutique production personalized luxury only for the elite of the elite.  The Escalade could pull that kind of exclusivity even if the CT6 couldnt... 

58 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Or..... use the 277 HP/460 TRQ all-aluminum, DOHC/4-valve Duramax TD in the sport sedan. Same configuration, 1.2 less liters displacement, 200 more TRQ... undoubtedly could be tuned higher; win-win-win.

 

A diesel sports sedan would not have gone over very well in the US...though in Europe they loved that shit. 

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Why spend all that money, time and effort only to get a single usage out of them?   Even if these engines were scalable to have base small Canyon pick-up trucks use the 4 cylinder version, the H3 Hummer and the upper level pick-up trucks to use the 5 cylinder and with the various versions of the GMT360 SUV (Trailblazer, Envoy, ,Rainier, SAAB, Bravada and Isuzu) use the 6 cylinder and not being able to use them further in cars?

 

 

Keep in mind the time frame...GM was circling the drain in the mid-to-late 00s... cutting costs, dropping platforms and divisions, bankruptcy, etc.    

5 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Keep in mind the time frame...GM was circling the drain in the mid-to-late 00s... cutting costs, dropping platforms and divisions, bankruptcy, etc.    

Yup. I hear ya!!!

I sometimes do forget. I sometimes dont.  Weird how I didnt forget when the discussion a couple of pages ago  was about a need for an Escalade V a decade ago...

Its funny how the thought process goes.  When one is passionate about a certain idea, how that passion clouts judgement...

3 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yup. I hear ya!!!

I sometimes do forget. I sometimes dont.  Weird how I didnt forget when the discussion a couple of pages ago  was about a need for an Escalade V a decade ago...

Its funny how the thought process goes.  When one is passionate about a certain idea, how that passion clouts judgement...

 

Also, they probably decided it made more sense to have only one V6 engine family, that way they could put them in everything from FWD sedans and CUVs to RWD cars and trucks..

16 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

A diesel sports sedan would not have gone over very well in the US...though in Europe they loved that shit. 

Well, it's certainly light years ahead of -say- an old anemic, noisy Audi diesel- the LM2 is a smooth, quiet, powerful, compact engine. It would be awesome in a sports sedan. Only potential obstacle I see might be physical engine height.

2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Also, they probably decided it made more sense to have only one V6 engine family, that way they could put them in everything from FWD sedans and CUVs to RWD cars and trucks..

Yeah...I remember this now. Its coming back to me. 

I think when they (management, engineering and bean counters) entered re-evaluation when they decided to nix Oldsmobile they redirected  where GM needs to be heading and came to a conclusion that 'high value'  transverse V6s that went into transverse FWD CUVs and cars would be the future and steered away from the Atlas and the other 'high feature' V6s they had planned 2-3-4-5 years earlier.   

They kept the 3.6 but a whole family of them were supposed to have been produced. But then, the high value V6s also went away when Pontiac and Saturn went away.  

Weird times for GM...

23 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Well, it's certainly light years ahead of -say- an old anemic, noisy Audi diesel- the LM2 is a smooth, quiet, powerful, compact engine. It would be awesome in a sports sedan. Only potential obstacle I see might be physical engine height.

Diesels have no future in passenger cars, though..it's pretty clear automakers are moving to BEV development full throttle...maybe 10 years ago there was an opportunity for diesels...

13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 They kept the 3.6 but a whole family of them were supposed to have been produced. But then, the high value V6s also went away when Pontiac and Saturn went away.  

Weird times for GM...

They have made smaller versions of the HF 3.6, though. A 3.0 IIRC.. And the full-size trucks still have the pushrod 4.3 V6 available.   (Edit--apparently the 4.3 is gone for '22, except in the ancient Express/Savana vans).