Rumorpile: Peeking Into Cadillac's Product Crystalball

No, I repeat, no FWD anything for Cadillac. 

Could they just get this name changing done and over with PLEASE! I mean we go all the way back to the DeVille changes and what the letters meant then the alpha numeric mishmash get it together will ya Cadillac you guys have no continuity instead of beautiful chiseled Art's and Science auto's we're served up some wonderful auto's with place marker names for almost 20years now. Every 3 years new names that mean nothing, what a shame.

HATE the naming scheme.  I'll believe a CT8 when I see it.  I feel we keep getting news of an S-Class fighter and never quite happens.

• XT1 or XT2 (Subcompact crossover) in 2020
• CT1 or CT2 (A3 and CLA fighter) in 2021

^ Oh Holy Hell; NO. ATS and CLA at the exact same size. Unless the CT3 is growing in size, and the CT5 is growing in size (it just shrank), WTF is Cadillac messing around like this for?? ATS/CT3 - DONE. NO LOWER. For God's sakes... 

I still hate the naming scheme, too. It doesn't help that they chose not to refresh the ATS or CTS with new names, but the CT/XT naming scheme is so clumsy to say off the tongue.

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

• XT1 or XT2 (Subcompact crossover) in 2020
• CT1 or CT2 (A3 and CLA fighter) in 2021

^ Oh Holy Hell; NO. ATS and CLA at the exact same size. Unless the CT3 is growing in size, and the CT5 is growing in size (it just shrank), WTF is Cadillac messing around like this for?? ATS/CT3 - DONE. NO LOWER. For God's sakes... 

Because they need volume, and their dealers want product to sell.  And GM sees dollar signs by taking a Chevy Traxx and making it a Cadillac and selling it for $30,900. 

5 hours ago, Paolino said:

HATE the naming scheme.  I'll believe a CT8 when I see it.  I feel we keep getting news of an S-Class fighter and never quite happens.

I agree, I don't like the names either, never did.  And I will believe a CT8 when I see it in the showroom.  Here is the problem with a S-class fighter, it will cost then $3 billion to do it right, that is probably more than the Silverado and Sierra's development budget and Cadillac will just never get that kind of budget.  It won't happen.

I hope they start using Omega in a big way, however what I am seeing here is Front wheel drive XT2, XT4, XT5 and XT7, and a front drive CT2.  It will be interesting to see the course they go.  But Johan has been there a while, Alpha platform is 5 years old, and yet XT5 and XT4 are coming out front drive, I think Cadillac wants front drive so they can just platform share with Chevy and cut cost.  It is "old GM" at it's finest.

What I am not seeing in this list of new products are any coupes, convertibles, sports cars or electric cars.  Shouldn't they have EV's?  Shouldn't they make a sports car if they are a top tier brand?  Shouldn't they make 1 freaking convertible if they are an aspirational brand?

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I agree, I don't like the names either, never did.  And I will believe a CT8 when I see it in the showroom.  Here is the problem with a S-class fighter, it will cost then $3 billion to do it right, that is probably more than the Silverado and Sierra's development budget and Cadillac will just never get that kind of budget.  It won't happen.

They should have just f@#king built the CT6 to look like the Escala or any of the other gorgeous concepts. The CT6 doesn't look bad per se, but it's not uniquely expressive at all, and that would have generated so much more buzz in the Caddy showrooms.

11 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

They should have just f@#king built the CT6 to look like the Escala or any of the other gorgeous concepts. The CT6 doesn't look bad per se, but it's not uniquely expressive at all, and that would have generated so much more buzz in the Caddy showrooms.

And the CT6 range topper engine is 116 lb-ft shy of the S-class's base engine.  They should have developed a CT6 exclusive V8 and made the 3.0TT the base engine for livery and rental spec cars.  They brought a knife to a gun fight.

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Because they need volume, and their dealers want product to sell.  And GM sees dollar signs by taking a Chevy Traxx and making it a Cadillac and selling it for $30,900. 

No different than MB, yet Cadillac does not need these low bottom feeders that really add nothing except make a name plate no different Than Chevy, Toyota, Ford, etc..

I think the CLA/A3 fighter is needed.  tha ATS, CTS, and CT6 are hardling setting the sales charts on fire.  We will certainly see this and the crossovers.  I have my doubts on the CT8 since this thing has been supposed to appear for what, 10 years now?  i also uldn't expect the crossovers ot the CLA fighter to use RWD platforms.  And that naming scheme sucks so bad..  

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Because they need volume, and their dealers want product to sell.  And GM sees dollar signs by taking a Chevy Traxx and making it a Cadillac and selling it for $30,900. 

They don't need volume though. That's what Chevy, GMC, and Buick are for. The cheaper the car the less the profit margins so they will be the least profitable Cadillacs anyway.

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I hope they start using Omega in a big way, however what I am seeing here is Front wheel drive XT2, XT4, XT5 and XT7, and a front drive CT2.  It will be interesting to see the course they go.  But Johan has been there a while, Alpha platform is 5 years old, and yet XT5 and XT4 are coming out front drive, I think Cadillac wants front drive so they can just platform share with Chevy and cut cost.  It is "old GM" at it's finest.

 

What I am not seeing in this list of new products are any coupes, convertibles, sports cars or electric cars.  Shouldn't they have EV's?  Shouldn't they make a sports car if they are a top tier brand?  Shouldn't they make 1 freaking convertible if they are an aspirational brand?

SUVs can be front drivers and nobody will know the difference. To cut costs here, of all places, is the smartest thing to do. Soccer moms don't even know what a canyon carver is, let alone want that.

GM is downsizing its model range if I understood correctly with the selling off of Opel and the explanation given that GM might retreat in some world markets and might stop offering some models in certain niches possibly eliminating a couple of those models all together.

With that being said, Cadillac needs a direction to follow.

Cadillac needs to sell cars and SUVs regardless what direction GM is heading down and we as of March 31, 2017 should realize that Cadillac needs to do whatever it takes to become relevant to remain in business.

I was against cars and SUVs smaller than the ATS. Hell, I was against the ATS. But with the news of GM downsizing, my mindset is changing.

Cadillac needs to break free from several stigmas in my opinion going forward from March 31, 2017 and beyond.

1. That Cadillac is a one trick pony selling land yachts.  The Eldorado and Fleetwood Series 62 cars  are loooong gone but the Escalade took their place, but Cadillac is much more than that! So Cadillac needs more work in convincing people for that.

Its clear that the "V" Series cars are not that answer. They  help, but another stigma has arose.

2. That Cadillac is a bargain luxury car maker.

3. Cadillac needs to distance itself to the connection to GM ....CHEVROLET through GM....

I dont know if selling ATS and sub ATS  cars are that answer because to me, selling small and more or less affordable cars contradict the luxury status Cadillac is pursuing to reclaim its position it held 30-40 years ago, but Cadillac DEFINITELY needs to get butts in the showrooms and into their cars to drive off in them.

That does mean more models, and it may mean picking up niches where Buick and Chevrolet may be abandoning....it seems contradictory but maybe a higher status vehicle might succeed where a lesser badge has failed...

It hasnt been all fail for the ATS.

People have bought/leased it.

The ATS stumbled because it and the 3rd gen CTS were poorly conceived and to boot, so was the CT6...

All 3 models step on each others toes somehow or other.

So...

Cadillac needs the right vehicle to sell in the HOT niches and if they fail to do that, they will miss yet another boat and train ride to relevancy. And if that means sub-ATS vehicles, so be it!

They better be built right though befitting a top tier luxury line-up!

58 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

They don't need volume though. That's what Chevy, GMC, and Buick are for. The cheaper the car the less the profit margins so they will be the least profitable Cadillacs anyway.

But if they can make $4000 profit on a Cadillac Traxx vs $700 profit on a Chevy Traxx, what do you think GM will want to do?   Cadillac needs more volume because selling 1 Cadillac can make as much money as selling 5 Chevy and GM wants profit at the bottom line.

50 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

SUVs can be front drivers and nobody will know the difference. To cut costs here, of all places, is the smartest thing to do. Soccer moms don't even know what a canyon carver is, let alone want that.

That was said about luxury sedans in the 80s and 90s also.  Front drive was better in snow, etc, and by the time Cadillac switched to a rear drive heavy line up aroun 2004 it was too late.

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But if they can make $4000 profit on a Cadillac Traxx vs $700 profit on a Chevy Traxx, what do you think GM will want to do?   Cadillac needs more volume because selling 1 Cadillac can make as much money as selling 5 Chevy and GM wants profit at the bottom line.

But is making a cheap/small vehicle like that hurting their large car's perceived value of luxury? I think they should stay away from anything smaller than an ATS and focus on what old Cadillac would have done w/ massive land barges but I know that won't happen. ATS and up and make like 2 different huge sedans and coupes the size of S Classes AND LARGER. They have the small car and volume thing to worry about at Chevy.. Let Cadillac be BOLD again.

2 hours ago, Stew said:

I think the CLA/A3 fighter is needed.

Cadillac already has one.

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Cadillac needs to break free from several stigmas in my opinion going forward from March 31, 2017 and beyond.

1. That Cadillac is a one trick pony selling land yachts. 
Cadillac needs more work in convincing people for that.

Who has this impression, I mean' REALLY?
The last Cadillac 'land yacht' was the Brougham, which hasn't been built in EIGHTEEN YEARS. You'd have to be some kind of mountaintop cave dweller to think Cadillac still built something befitting that nickname. WE ALL know there's no 'land yachts', but for some reason some of us think there's others of us that do.

It's not the mindset that has to go away, but the mindset that there's a mindset. It's not legitimate.

The Escalade is a full-size SUV, that's not remotely the same thing. 

6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Cadillac already has one.

What?  the ATS is too pricey to be a direct competitor. 

They're only 3k apart. ATS starts at 34,500 CLA starts at 32,400. The A3 is cheaper at 31,200.

12 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Who has this impression, I mean' REALLY?
The last Cadillac 'land yacht' was the Brougham, which hasn't been built in EIGHTEEN YEARS. You'd have to be some kind of mountaintop cave dweller to think Cadillac still built something befitting that nickname. WE ALL know there's no 'land yachts', but for some reason some of us think there's others of us that do.

It's not the mindset that has to go away, but the mindset that there's a mindset. It's not legitimate.

The Escalade is a full-size SUV, that's not remotely the same thing. 

Well Balthy, its there!

And THAT is the PROBLEM...DENYING that that stigma exists!
Maybe if the powers that be in charge of Cadillac and some fans of Cadillac took their heads outta the sand, then maybe they would see reality in a much clearer way!

And then maybe that explains why the Escalade is such a run-a-way success story as compared to say a STS, CTS, CT6...
 

You think that a BOF SUV is all that different from a BOF fullsized sedan?

Please refrain from the semantics...

Cadillac needs to be bold!

Cadillac also has stigma issues they need to shake off regardless how long they ceased production of Fleetwoods, Broughams and Cimarrons...to deny that is living in a bubble!

Cadillac needs to be in the niches that people are actually buying their luxury rides, perceived luxury or not!

Cadillac needs to introduce cars that you and I are not comfortable with...its because those people that will buy their cars in niches we think is not deserving of Cadillac, its these people that will lift these negative stigmas once and for all!!!

Escalade for all I know, is hurting Cadillac to move forward.

Big gangsta blinged out mobile versus mafia boss hiding dead bodies in the trunk...

Yeah...the stigma is there Balthy...

Ive been on both sides of the fence. I really dont know what way Cadillac should go.

But at least Im aware that Cadillac's image is not healthy. And I listen to many reasons as to why that is...

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

They're only 3k apart. ATS starts at 34,500 CLA starts at 32,400. The A3 is cheaper at 31,200.

Ah, but people see both the Mercedes and Audi as more prestigious.  What is the difference in price between a CLA and C class, or A3 and A4?

I think Cadillac should embrace their position as slightly lower cost domestic luxury, even if that means they don't have Mercedes-level interiors. A $40,000 basic ATS 2.0T remains a self-defeating proposition. A $50,000 low/mid level CTS isn't working. I mean, I'd love to own a Cadillac, but a mid-level ATS 2.0T with an upgraded interior costs $46k! That's $10k short of a Corvette and $10k more than a Camaro SS.

If I ran Cadillac it would be more like this:

$35k decently equipped ATS 2.0T w/LED signature lights.
$40k upper trim ATS V6
$55k ATS-V

$40k decently equipped CTS 2.0T
$47k upper trim CTS V6
$55k CTS V-Sport
$75k CTS-V

$50k base CT6 V6 RWD (no more 2.0T)
$60k CT6 3.0T AWD
$70k CT6 Platinum

23 minutes ago, Stew said:

Ah, but people see both the Mercedes and Audi as more prestigious.  What is the difference in price between a CLA and C class, or A3 and A4?

I agree. Cadillac doesn't have the name it should and that's why I think they should avoid the small vehicle game and build a reputation up first.

Lemme look...

CLA: 32,400

C: 39,500

A4: 31,200

A4: 34,900

An A3 is NOT 'prestigious'.

Quote

Well Balthy, its there! And THAT is the PROBLEM...DENYING that that stigma exists!

All I've ever heard is breezy heresay, I've never heard/seen any segment-viable consumer state they themselves believe Cadillac builds 'land yachts'. Regardless, they're obviously patently erroneous in that belief- how much energy does a retail entity expend convincing people who are wrong that they're wrong when the evidence is Right. There.

Find me this microcosm of the car buying society who thinks this way, I mean; I want phone numbers/addresses.

Quote

Big gangsta blinged out mobile versus mafia boss hiding dead bodies in the trunk… Yeah...the stigma is there Balthy.

Oh God, YOU'RE ONE OF THEM! How is one of these 'blinged out' and other other isn't??

Quote

You think that a BOF SUV is all that different from a BOF fullsized sedan?

You seem to be dialed in to heresy; ever hear anyone call a full-size truck a 'land yacht'? I haven't.

4 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I think Cadillac should embrace their position as slightly lower cost domestic luxury, even if that means they don't have Mercedes-level interiors. A $40,000 basic ATS 2.0T remains a self-defeating proposition. A $50,000 low/mid level CTS isn't working. I mean, I'd love to own a Cadillac, but a mid-level ATS 2.0T with an upgraded interior costs $46k! That's $10k short of a Corvette and $10k more than a Camaro SS.

If I ran Cadillac it would be more like this:

$35k decently equipped ATS 2.0T w/LED signature lights.
$40k upper trim ATS V6
$55k ATS-V

$40k decently equipped CTS 2.0T
$47k upper trim CTS V6
$55k CTS V-Sport
$75k CTS-V

$50k base CT6 V6 RWD (no more 2.0T)
$60k CT6 3.0T AWD
$70k CT6 Platinum

So you'd basically move them all down a size price-wise?

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I agree. Cadillac doesn't have the name it should and that's why I think they should avoid the small vehicle game and build a reputation up first.

Lemme look...

CLA: 32,400

C: 39,500

A4: 31,200

A4: 34,900

CTS starts at 45k

C class has jumped up in price, but the A3/A4 fall in line well.  I think they would have to do a smaller car right.  it would have to be styled well, it would have to cover a whole range, and be competitive.  One thing about the 2 others, you can get the A3, S3, or even a crazy S3 and he CLA45 AM is one hell of a performance beast.  There would need to be an entire lineup for the Cadillac as well.  They also need to start using AWD more, especially in their V models and V Sport models. 

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

So you'd basically move them all down a size price-wise?

Oh absolutely. I don't even see Audi/BMW prices as sustainable. None of these cars are worth the price. This is why you drive off the lot and lose 25% value and you have a huge auto loan bubble with 72 month financing.

I gave GM leadership the benefit of the doubt when they tried to stick to their guns with aggressive pricing, but after 3-4 model years, sales are continually decreasing despite the quality of the product. Of course, their stubbornness regarding CUE in the CTS and ATS hasn't helped whatsoever. They build beautiful, extravagant concept cars every year but can't redesign the center stack used across 5 models? I digress.

Yes, Cadillac models could stand to drop $5k or more across the board.

5 minutes ago, balthazar said:

An A3 is NOT 'prestigious'.

All I've ever heard is breezy heresay, I've never heard/seen any segment-viable consumer state they themselves believe Cadillac builds 'land yachts'. Regardless, they're obviously patently erroneous in that belief- how much energy does a retail entity expend convincing people who are wrong that they're wrong when the evidence is Right. There.

Find me this microcosm of the car buying society who thinks this way, I mean; I want phone numbers/addresses.

Oh God, YOU'RE ONE OF THEM! How is one of these 'blinged out' and other other isn't??

You seem to be dialed in to heresy; ever hear anyone call a full-size truck a 'land yacht'? I haven't.

Oh God!

It looks like YOU are one of those still stuck with your head in the sand!

Why dont YOU prove to ME it is NOT!!!

All Ive heard from you is wishful thinking through rose coloured glasses.

Balthy, its EASY to talk the way you do as you dont have anymore answers than I do..

Its clear that YOUR opinion is not more valid than mine....why:

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/02/cadillac-ats-sales-numbers-figures-results-january-2017/

U.S. January 2017 Midsize Luxury Sedan Sales Overview

Model	January 2017 Deliveries	January 2016 Deliveries	January 2017 / January 2016
Mercedes-Benz E-Class	4,155	2,790	+48.9%
Audi A6	1,008	841	+19.9%
BMW 5 Series	759	3,795	-80.3%
Cadillac CTS	691	1,013	-31.8%
Lexus GS	422	1,298	-67.5%

 

stop with the phoquing semantic driven bullshyte...

 

I hypothesized an idea I may have...I hear and read shyte about why Cadillac is faltering...

 

Maybe the Escalade DOES bring a negative stigma to would be ATS owners but these new owners dont want to be associated with this:

 

 

 

Yes last generation Escalade...still an Escalade...SEMANTICS!!!

 

Like I said...Cadillac to many....seems like a one trick pony....

Pimp my ride Eldos, Fleetwoods and 'Slades...

 

If you dont agree, fine...

THAT does NOT mean that the stigma is NOT THERE!

 

You could wax poetic all you like about  Mercedes-Benz NOT being luxury ...and I agree to that for the same reasons YOU hold!

The thing is, M-B is doing what is necessary to survive and to continue being relevant.

I have NO doubt when that strategy starts failing that they will adjust...

 

Cadillac, my friend, needs to do something and of it means doing what JDN is proposing in offering sub-ATS vehicles so be it!

 

About the Escalade....I bet MY LIFE that the next Escalade will be LESS BOLD and more, dare I say it, more European!!! Yeah....for reasons I speculated!!!

 

Laugh and try to ridicule me with nonsense ....I see what JDN is doing and I keep to my opinions because I see the pattern ....The Escala is not a whole lot American in look is it?  HMMMMM???!!!

31 minutes ago, Stew said:

C class has jumped up in price, but the A3/A4 fall in line well.  I think they would have to do a smaller car right.  it would have to be styled well, it would have to cover a whole range, and be competitive.  One thing about the 2 others, you can get the A3, S3, or even a crazy S3 and he CLA45 AM is one hell of a performance beast.  There would need to be an entire lineup for the Cadillac as well.  They also need to start using AWD more, especially in their V models and V Sport models. 

Heck, there's an RS3 out now(summer is when it's technically released but they're 2017's)! That would be one heck of a fun car to drive, imo. 400hp? Yes, please.

23 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Oh absolutely. I don't even see Audi/BMW prices as sustainable. None of these cars are worth the price. This is why you drive off the lot and lose 25% value and you have a huge auto loan bubble with 72 month financing.

I gave GM leadership the benefit of the doubt when they tried to stick to their guns with aggressive pricing, but after 3-4 model years, sales are continually decreasing despite the quality of the product. Of course, their stubbornness regarding CUE in the CTS and ATS hasn't helped whatsoever. They build beautiful, extravagant concept cars every year but can't redesign the center stack used across 5 models? I digress.

Yes, Cadillac models could stand to drop $5k or more across the board.

Agreed, 72, 84, 96 month financing on items that depreciate like automobiles is going to hurt us all soon enough... Fck'n ridiculous.

The Escalades you posted are not available thru Cadillac. There are just as many blinged out & dubbed mercedes swirling in the gutter- both are degridations of the respective brands… but they are done by private owners. That whole movement seems to be fading out anyway, and good riddance.

Quote

Why dont YOU prove to ME it is NOT!!!

What do you want me to prove the nonexistence of, exactly? I was talking about there no longer being Cadillac 'land yachts'; your proof is @ cadillac.com.

Quote

Cadillac, my friend, needs to do something and of it means doing what JDN is proposing in offering sub-ATS vehicles so be it!

That's NOT the answer!!! You have a monthly number for ATS sales, a car the same size & price, with comparable power trains & a better driver experience than it's competition, and JDN thinks splitting that segment with a car a few inches smaller, a few thousand less and FWD is going to 'turn things around'??? Can we get a circus clown's opinion of Cadillac's attack plan in here, please?

Quote

THAT does NOT mean that the stigma is NOT THERE!

Just saying 'it's there' doesn't show me. Again I refer you to cadillac.com. 
And again I submit; a stigma based on a vapor, from people who aren't a viable segment consumer, is immaterial. There are people out there who think 'mercedes' is 'Hitler's car'- a "stigma", what should mercedes do about that?

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The Escalades you posted are not available thru Cadillac. There are just as many blinged out & dubbed mercedes swirling in the gutter- both are degridations of the respective brands… but they are done by private owners. That whole movement seems to be fading out anyway, and good riddance.

What do you want me to prove the nonexistence of, exactly? I was talking about there no longer being Cadillac 'land yachts'; your proof is @ cadillac.com.

That's NOT the answer!!! You have a monthly number for ATS sales, a car the same size & price, with comparable power trains & a better driver experience than it's competition, and JDN thinks splitting that segment with a car a few inches smaller, a few thousand less and FWD is going to 'turn things around'??? Can we get a circus clown's opinion of Cadillac's attack plan in here, please?

Just saying 'it's there' doesn't show me. Again I refer you to cadillac.com. 
And again I submit; a stigma based on a vapor, from people who aren't a viable segment consumer, is immaterial. There are people out there who think 'mercedes' is 'Hitler's car'- a "stigma", what should mercedes do about that?

ALLS I READ IS BLAH BLAH BLAH!

Your opinion just as empty as mine!

About M-B and Hitler....

M-B is REVISING its history with the Fuhrer!

Dont take my word for it....its hearsay....

46 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Heck, there's an RS3 out now(summer is when it's technically released but they're 2017's)! That would be one heck of a fun car to drive, imo. 400hp? Yes, please.

 

RS3 makes me weak in the knees.  400HP, AWD, and turbo 5 cylinder?  Ohhhhhhhhh  i really like the size too, though I still don't like the sensitive breaks the A3 loaner my brother had and the cupholder location sucks.  Still not enough to make me not want one though  

19 minutes ago, Stew said:

RS3 makes me weak in the knees.  400HP, AWD, and turbo 5 cylinder?  Ohhhhhhhhh  i really like the size too, though I still don't like the sensitive breaks the A3 loaner my brother had and the cupholder location sucks.  Still not enough to make me not want one though  

Yep, I'm a smaller car type of person so this is like right in my wheelhouse! I'd bet the RS3 has completely different brakes..lol

olds- let me restate with an analogy so you hear other than 'blahblah'.

Olds : 'some people believe that there are living, breathing Stegosauruses still walking the earth.'
Balthy : 'The 'Wildlife Federation', and empirical science, proves that's totally wrong.'
Olds : 'Balthy, YOU have your head in the sand! The 'Wildlife Federation needs to combat the stigma.'

You can't correct crazy (beyond powerful sedatives). Cadillac has already addressed all those totally illegitimate 'stigmas', there's nothing more to be done. The few crazies out there that still believe Cadillac is building the Fleetwood of the 90s are beyond caring about. 

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Yep, I'm a smaller car type of person so this is like right in my wheelhouse! I'd bet the RS3 has completely different brakes..lol

Very true.  Just hope they aren't setup to give full braking power with just a tip of the beak pedal lol. 

According to the Cadillac rep at the Cleveland auto show the XT7 will be shown this fall. He said it would  be a 3 row version based on the XT5? Now that means the XT5 is changing or the XT7 is just a longer non Omega. 

As for names bla bla bla. You can call it the Tucker Torpedo if you get it right and people will buy it. The trick is to make the car desireable to get people to pony up the money and create an image with the brand and model. 

GMC has done this to the top shelf with the Denali line. It took 20 years but they are exploiting it well. Since I bought a Denali I have experienced the public perception of the line. I hear oh you are MR big bucks and how much do you make? It has projected an image on me that creates reaction. The truth is the dealer discounted it to SLT price and for the money it was the better value. Other wise it may have been the SLT or SLE all terrain. 

But this image is what Cadillac needs to capture and create. It will take product and time so do not expect this first gen JDN product to change the image overnight. 

As for the present cars I find the Audi line more and more attractive. The A7 I was in was a very well done car. To be honest I would want it over any of the similar Benz and BMW offerings. 

Audi is gaining ground fast and I expect they will really make an impact in the segment. 

Cadillac should make a good impression with the new cars and if they get them right they will gain ground. The SUV models is where the image will be build as this is where the volume will be and where the market is at. They have a good shot as GM knows how to build a CUV and SUV model as well as anyone. 

The future will be build by non traditional buyers as catering to the traditional buyers is what got them into this mess and got them behind the market segment. 

It could be worse as Lincoln spent all that time and money on the new Conti and as of now all it has become is that car driven backwards by the nut job star. I have yet to see one on the road yet. It is out?

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

olds- let me restate with an analogy so you hear other than 'blahblah'.

Olds : 'some people believe that there are living, breathing Stegosauruses still walking the earth.'
Balthy : 'The 'Wildlife Federation', and empirical science, proves that's totally wrong.'
Olds : 'Balthy, YOU have your head in the sand! The 'Wildlife Federation needs to combat the stigma.'

You can't correct crazy (beyond powerful sedatives). Cadillac has already addressed all those totally illegitimate 'stigmas', there's nothing more to be done. The few crazies out there that still believe Cadillac is building the Fleetwood of the 90s are beyond caring about. 

OK...explain these animals then:

Because BOTH existed when the Stegosauruses roamed the earth, so when I say living breathing prehistoric creatures still walk the earth, and these animals carry dinosaur stigmas, you may want to rethink things...

Balthy: Yeah, but that is a fish and a reptile and Dinosaurs were more bird-like.

Olds: SEMANTICS...doesnt change the fact that all three are scary as hell, wont hesitate to eat us (the predatory dinos, not the herbivores) and all three co-existed leaving much confusion to the general public in still believing dinosaurs were of the reptilian family rather than very early birds....

Call it what you will, Cadillac leaves a bad taste in people's mouths still and there are many reasons why....and yes...pimp my ride Eldos, Fleetwoods is still one of them...

It dont help when cars like the Deville, DTS (same car) and the XTS still exist and are on the showroom floor (XTS) and is practically outselling the other more modern Cadillac cars...

6 hours ago, ccap41 said:

But is making a cheap/small vehicle like that hurting their large car's perceived value of luxury? I think they should stay away from anything smaller than an ATS and focus on what old Cadillac would have done w/ massive land barges but I know that won't happen. ATS and up and make like 2 different huge sedans and coupes the size of S Classes AND LARGER. They have the small car and volume thing to worry about at Chevy.. Let Cadillac be BOLD again.

They don't have anything high end except the Escalade though.  That has always been a struggle since the Allante in the 80s, they can't crack into that top tier of high end cars.

If Cadillac just stuck with a proper naming convention and stayed on mission to be an exclusive niche brand.

"Entry-level luxury" is a contradiction in terms.

Cadillac needs personality and narrative.  It should bring back the old names for what they have to offer and use concept car names, as well.

ATS = Coupe and Sedan de Ville

CTS = Seville

XT5 = Calais

CT6 = Fleetwood

Escalade = Escalade

Halo Car = Cien/Ciel/Escala

Get rid of the XTS

That makes a half-dozen models for the brand.

If they want to find a way to bring back the Eldorado, then great.

5 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I think Cadillac should embrace their position as slightly lower cost domestic luxury, even if that means they don't have Mercedes-level interiors. A $40,000 basic ATS 2.0T remains a self-defeating proposition. A $50,000 low/mid level CTS isn't working. I mean, I'd love to own a Cadillac, but a mid-level ATS 2.0T with an upgraded interior costs $46k! That's $10k short of a Corvette and $10k more than a Camaro SS.

If I ran Cadillac it would be more like this:

$35k decently equipped ATS 2.0T w/LED signature lights.
$40k upper trim ATS V6
$55k ATS-V

$40k decently equipped CTS 2.0T
$47k upper trim CTS V6
$55k CTS V-Sport
$75k CTS-V

$50k base CT6 V6 RWD (no more 2.0T)
$60k CT6 3.0T AWD
$70k CT6 Platinum

That is an interesting take, it probably would spur sales a lot, but would be a different direction for Cadillac.  There is a good argument for that plan, or you could argue raising prices by $10,000 across the board and putting in more content and power.  Even the current price structure undercuts BMW and Mercedes, so undercutting by a little clearly doesn't work.

Oh and Balthy...you asked for proof:

Quote

 

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/02/cadillac-xts-sales-numbers-figures-results-january-2017/

 

Sales Numbers - Cadillac XTS - January 2017 - United States

MODEL	JAN 2017 / JAN 2016	JANUARY 2017	JANUARY 2016	YTD 2017 / YTD 2016	YTD 2017	YTD 2016
XTS	+1.99%	1,849	1,813	+1.99%	1,849	1,813

 

 

Posting a 2 percent growth in cumulative sales volume, the Cadillac XTS appears to be protected from the U.S. market’s seemingly-insatiable hunger for crossovers. We believe this is due to three primary reasons, including:

1. Its relatively affordable price
2. An established and loyal customer base that is not as highly-sensitive to the latest market trends (such as switching to crossovers from sedans)
3. Steady sales to fleet and livery customers

 

word of the day:  SEMANTICS.  LOL

To me, the fact that the XTS is the best selling Cadillac car proves my point:  there is still a relatively healthy market for traditional American style luxury sedans... and in fact they are preferred over these wannabe Eurotrash pale copies from the same brand... it speaks loud and clear to me.  BRING BACK THE FLEETWOOD!  I am imagining a repackaged CT6 with a smooth, quiet V8, a smaller wheel size with more meat on the tire sidewall, and a rich cloth interior with a bench seat... ahhhh... what a dream -

product is what defines a name and name do not define product.

As damaged as some of the names were they would be better off leaving the emblems off all together. 

If you are going to define your product by the name you are lacking in product. 

You can name your kid Elvis but that is no promise he can sing.

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Oh and Balthy...you asked for proof:

1. Look at bolded number 2 reason...and for January 2017 in the USA...the XTS OUTSOLD the ATS and CTS  combined.

 

So…. your contention is that the XTS is a "land yacht"? Why didn't you say that up front?

I would disagree with that theory; doesn't fit what I think of as one. And the only proof I asked for was the 'people who think Cadillac makes land yachts today', which Cadillac model sales numbers do not address.

The Cadillac Land Yacht no longer exists.

Maybe Cadillac's problem is that, unlike many other brands, Cadillac is part of GM (as opposed to being fully separate).  The image thing does matter unfortunately, simply because image (once set) tends to become concrete.  Short of ending Cadillac and starting over as something completely separate (like Saturn its first decade or so), there are luxury buyers who still think Cadillac is still partying like it's 1999.  There is not much that can be done about that.  Baby boomers still have the 1970s and 80s in their memories, and since the vast majority of luxury buyers are past 50, those memories will still linger.  Also, there are the older DTS/STS/Eldorado cars that still exist on the road now, 15 years later.

Cadillac still needs to keep on upgrading their vehicles and keep getting better.  Short of MB/BMW/Audi/Lexus falling off, Cadillac will at times struggle in the sales league tables.  Just remember, in about 25 years or so, Boomer everything will eventually fade away and Millennial buyers will not have the 20th Century guiding any of their decisions.

The problem with the XTS is this. 

It is not the floaty boat of yesteryear but it is not a  sport sedan either. I is a luxury sedan based on a FWD Buick and Chevy. 

The heritage of the car for the many who know where it is based hurts it in their minds image. In this class you can not screw around too much with the younger buyers because they are smarter and on line to be better informed. 

While it is still a good car it makes it hard for some to pay that kind of a price for a better Buick. 

If Cadillac was content with running with Lincoln then the XTS would be fine. When it was developed GM was at a point that was their contention as this is really a car based in the pre bankruptcy of GM and Shelved till they came out and was used to buy time their they got their direction and footing. Many sides inside GM were fighting for the direction and finally Ruess got it in the one direction and put JDN to take them there. 

This infighting is why the message of Cadillac as been so mixed over the last so many years. Also it is why they has so much turn over at the head of the division.  You will also see this is why they are in NYC not so much for culture but to get the division the hell away from GM and those there that meddle.

Mark went though hell and back for the CT6 and even then it was compromised because he did not get all he wanted. JDN is more the non GM insider that is not intimidated by the old guard and he is going to do what he and Mark thinks needs done.

Another thing that has tossed a monkey wrench in this is that the market is changing fast and the CUV and SUV segment is changing fast. This was all the while when GM was also replacing the SUV and CUV platforms.

When looking at the Cadillac question you have to take all factors into consideration. This is not just a product decision  but  one of budgets, manpower, internal politics,  market changes and time lines. All of this is in play. Then you have to factor in they are buying the time marketing wise till they get the new product that will take time to earn it's spot in the hearts of the buyers. 

Like every batter at the plate wants a home run most will take the single as this is a step forward to earn the lead. Each of these steps is one step to a win. 

So you can sit here and debate the short term issues or irrelevant problems but it is the big picture that will make the difference here. 

I swear some here focus so much on the petty bug on the windshield and never see the road forward. 

The fact is better product is coming, No not one single one will solve all the problems. No using old names will not solve the problems. No bench seats and fender skirts will not solve the problems they face. But if they can get all positive moves with each and every product in styling, quality and desirability they will move around the bases score runs with the customer and over time win the game. 

Cadillac does not have to sell more cars than BMW or Benz to be successful. The key here is to build a rep and image that will sell more cars at higher prices per unit sold. This segment is one that really is profitable and volume is not a major factor as much as ATP. The profits in these models are only surpassed by Trucks and it is the most profitable car segment. Chevy has to sell a number of cars to see the same profits one Cadillac has. 

So keep this in perspective and watch the bottom line. If Cadillac makes more money then this is a total win. 

As for the XTS it is still a transitional car and it will linger as long as it is making money. I do not expect it to be replaced with a similar model in the future. It may be replaced with a CUV of a similar size.