Cadillac's Dealers Hold On As de Nysschen's Plan Comes To Into Action

The CTS is the cheapest car in its segment, and it is cheaper than the STS 10 years ago in that segment.  The car isn't over priced, it is under delivered.

 

Cadillac is trying to copy what other luxury makers do well, and not be what Cadillac was.  The SRX went to fwd and size and price almost the same as the Lexus RX, even the names are similar.  The ATS was built within an inch in every dimension of a 3-series, Cadillac even uses the same XF steering that the 3-series uses.  The ATS-V got a twin turbo 6 because the M3 left the V8 in favor of a 6.  Johan is renaming the cars to a similar scheme Audi and Infiniti use. 

 

Cadillac uses a lot of Chevy engines, transmissions and parts still to go after the imports (XTS, ELR, Escalade, etc).  Chevy can't really beat Toyota/Honda, how are those parts going to beat BMW and Mercedes?

 

The Cadillac brand doesn't really have a clear definition or consistent marketing, the marketing campaigns change every year, a new tagline comes every year, etc.

I'm not as worried about the product....when GM can do it right, boy can they....

They lack image, marketing. Hence my first rant.....

The new 3.6 just got shared with the Camaro; so much for being only Cadillac and Buick exclusive.

So how would you say when the 3.6 got clobbered by other force induced competitors to which it was compared to? Man, there's nothing wrong with the vehicle, the car should have been tested with other engine. Do you mean ATS-V vs the S4 or 340 or C400 or XE supercharged? Priceless!

When you price the engine equivalent to its competitors, when you portray the car with that engine to be similar to the force induced motors of equivalent horsepowers, then you should at least be par with them on performance, not down and give an excuse of other choices. In this case the 3.6 is equivalent to the cars mentioned above and it fails in performance.

Cadillac is very intentionally NOT following the German model at this point... they are actively thumbing their nose at it.

If this comment was for me - Good and that's what it should. But when you thumb the nose, you go one up, not one down. 3.6 is not a proper engine to go thumb the nose at when there are other powerful engines from the competitors.

 

 

2.5, 2.0T, 3.6, 3.0TT (highly likely), 3.6TT, 2.0T-Hybrid, I4-Diesel, V6-Diesel

There is nothing messed up with the 3.6 V6 as long as other options are available too.  There is nothing wrong with offering an additional option.  Don't like it? Don't buy it.

 

And yes, the engine is remaining Cadillac exclusive for now and when it does get shared will only be shared with upper end Buick... something along the lines of an Avenir and possibly Lacrosse.

 

 

The new 3.6 just got shared with the Camaro; so much for being only Cadillac and Buick exclusive.

 

So how would you say when the 3.6 got clobbered by other force induced competitors to which it was compared to? Man, there's nothing wrong with the vehicle, the car should have been tested with other engine. Do you mean ATS-V vs the S4 or 340 or C400 or XE supercharged? Priceless!

 

When you price the engine equivalent to its competitors, when you portray the car with that engine to be similar to the force induced motors of equivalent horsepowers, then you should at least be par with them on performance, not down and give an excuse of other choices. In this case the 3.6 is equivalent to the cars mentioned above and it fails in performance.

 

When I've asked about the 3.0TT for the ATS as a V-Sport model, I was told with a wink and a nudge "We don't discuss un-announced product".

And there is also always this: The Plug-In Hybrid is comprised of a 2.0L turbocharged four-cylinder engine and two electric motors. A new rear wheel electric variable transmission and 18.4 kWh battery finish off the powertrain. Total output is rated at 335 horsepower and 432 pound-feet of torque.

The CTS is the cheapest car in its segment, and it is cheaper than the STS 10 years ago in that segment.  The car isn't over priced, it is under delivered.

Tell me how, don't just copulate.

 

 

Cadillac is trying to copy what other luxury makers do well, and not be what Cadillac was.  The SRX went to fwd and size and price almost the same as the Lexus RX, even the names are similar.  The ATS was built within an inch in every dimension of a 3-series, Cadillac even uses the same XF steering that the 3-series uses.  The ATS-V got a twin turbo 6 because the M3 left the V8 in favor of a 6.  Johan is renaming the cars to a similar scheme Audi and Infiniti use.

Other than the asinine new naming scheme, which I agree with you, what is wrong with copying? Cadillac didn't have any of these markets invented but buyers have moved that way so it is reasonable to benchmark to create your own product. So when you step your foot in, you have to try to beat the best by reverse engineering, nothing wrong with that. Now the comment of SRX being RX shows your IQ level pretty darn well, you just say something to prove your point, don't you? GM invented many markets to which the competitors have mirrored them, where is your opinion on that?

 

 

Cadillac uses a lot of Chevy engines, transmissions and parts still to go after the imports (XTS, ELR, Escalade, etc).  Chevy can't really beat Toyota/Honda, how are those parts going to beat BMW and Mercedes?

 

The Cadillac brand doesn't really have a clear definition or consistent marketing, the marketing campaigns change every year, a new tagline comes every year, etc.

So you are fine with Chevroletdes Benz sharing platforms, engines and other components with Nissan/Renault? Or BMW for that matter with Citroen and Toyota? It is economies of scales and given the current caustic environment, it makes more sense to do so.

As far as the brand not having clear definition, the brand was in turmoil, it went from beautiful vehicles to big land barges to competing with smaller nimbler cars. The brand is in flux and it will take a decade before it will show its virtues. Till that time go buy your favorite German brands and watch with jealousy the brand picking up. It's already showing a light in the right direction.

 

 

Cadillac is very intentionally NOT following the German model at this point... they are actively thumbing their nose at it.

 

If this comment was for me - Good and that's what it should. But when you thumb the nose, you go one up, not one down. 3.6 is not a proper engine to go thumb the nose at when there are other powerful engines from the competitors.

 

The 3.6 ATS is $7k less than a C400 4Matic.  Start adding options and the delta between the two grows larger because Benz options are more expensive.  The ATS 3.6 is a V6 at C300 price, or a 328i price, or A4 2.0T price....

 

 

 

2.5, 2.0T, 3.6, 3.0TT (highly likely), 3.6TT, 2.0T-Hybrid, I4-Diesel, V6-Diesel

There is nothing messed up with the 3.6 V6 as long as other options are available too.  There is nothing wrong with offering an additional option.  Don't like it? Don't buy it.

 

And yes, the engine is remaining Cadillac exclusive for now and when it does get shared will only be shared with upper end Buick... something along the lines of an Avenir and possibly Lacrosse.

 

 

The new 3.6 just got shared with the Camaro; so much for being only Cadillac and Buick exclusive.

 

So how would you say when the 3.6 got clobbered by other force induced competitors to which it was compared to? Man, there's nothing wrong with the vehicle, the car should have been tested with other engine. Do you mean ATS-V vs the S4 or 340 or C400 or XE supercharged? Priceless!

 

When you price the engine equivalent to its competitors, when you portray the car with that engine to be similar to the force induced motors of equivalent horsepowers, then you should at least be par with them on performance, not down and give an excuse of other choices. In this case the 3.6 is equivalent to the cars mentioned above and it fails in performance.

 

 

When I've asked about the 3.0TT for the ATS as a V-Sport model, I was told with a wink and a nudge "We don't discuss un-announced product".

 

And there is also always this: The Plug-In Hybrid is comprised of a 2.0L turbocharged four-cylinder engine and two electric motors. A new rear wheel electric variable transmission and 18.4 kWh battery finish off the powertrain. Total output is rated at 335 horsepower and 432 pound-feet of torque.

 

Good. But till then the 3.6 is going to be a weak duckling.

 

 

 

 

2.5, 2.0T, 3.6, 3.0TT (highly likely), 3.6TT, 2.0T-Hybrid, I4-Diesel, V6-Diesel

There is nothing messed up with the 3.6 V6 as long as other options are available too.  There is nothing wrong with offering an additional option.  Don't like it? Don't buy it.

 

And yes, the engine is remaining Cadillac exclusive for now and when it does get shared will only be shared with upper end Buick... something along the lines of an Avenir and possibly Lacrosse.

 

 

The new 3.6 just got shared with the Camaro; so much for being only Cadillac and Buick exclusive.

 

So how would you say when the 3.6 got clobbered by other force induced competitors to which it was compared to? Man, there's nothing wrong with the vehicle, the car should have been tested with other engine. Do you mean ATS-V vs the S4 or 340 or C400 or XE supercharged? Priceless!

 

When you price the engine equivalent to its competitors, when you portray the car with that engine to be similar to the force induced motors of equivalent horsepowers, then you should at least be par with them on performance, not down and give an excuse of other choices. In this case the 3.6 is equivalent to the cars mentioned above and it fails in performance.

 

 

When I've asked about the 3.0TT for the ATS as a V-Sport model, I was told with a wink and a nudge "We don't discuss un-announced product".

 

And there is also always this: The Plug-In Hybrid is comprised of a 2.0L turbocharged four-cylinder engine and two electric motors. A new rear wheel electric variable transmission and 18.4 kWh battery finish off the powertrain. Total output is rated at 335 horsepower and 432 pound-feet of torque.

 

 

Good. But till then the 3.6 is going to be a weak duckling.

 

Which is why it is priced against the competitors' 4-bangers.

 

 

 

Cadillac is very intentionally NOT following the German model at this point... they are actively thumbing their nose at it.

 

If this comment was for me - Good and that's what it should. But when you thumb the nose, you go one up, not one down. 3.6 is not a proper engine to go thumb the nose at when there are other powerful engines from the competitors.

 

 

The 3.6 ATS is $7k less than a C400 4Matic.  Start adding options and the delta between the two grows larger because Benz options are more expensive.  The ATS 3.6 is a V6 at C300 price, or a 328i price, or A4 2.0T price....

 

Now, now let us not go there. There's a difference between price and performance and I'm not talking about the former. This tweener mentality is what has got people like one of the posters on this thread talking about how the Cadillacs should be $5,000 to 6,000 less than what they are currently priced.

ATS 2.5 has BMW 320, IS250, nothing from other competitors. You have the 2.0T for 328, A4 2.0T, C300, etc. And then the 3.6 competing with the C400, IS350, S4, 335i (340i). If you match or offer the performance better than the competitors with less price then your performance value coefficient is excellent. When you have performance and value lower than competitors, then you are making excuses.

 

 

 

 

Cadillac is very intentionally NOT following the German model at this point... they are actively thumbing their nose at it.

 

If this comment was for me - Good and that's what it should. But when you thumb the nose, you go one up, not one down. 3.6 is not a proper engine to go thumb the nose at when there are other powerful engines from the competitors.

 

 

The 3.6 ATS is $7k less than a C400 4Matic.  Start adding options and the delta between the two grows larger because Benz options are more expensive.  The ATS 3.6 is a V6 at C300 price, or a 328i price, or A4 2.0T price....

 

 

Now, now let us not go there. There's a difference between price and performance and I'm not talking about the former. This tweener mentality is what has got people like one of the posters on this thread talking about how the Cadillacs should be $5,000 to 6,000 less than what they are currently priced.

 

ATS 2.5 has BMW 320, IS250, nothing from other competitors. You have the 2.0T for 328, A4 2.0T, C300, etc. And then the 3.6 competing with the C400, IS350, S4, 335i (340i). If you match or offer the performance better than the competitors with less price then your performance value coefficient is excellent. When you have performance and value lower than competitors, then you are making excuses.

 

I've said a few times now that I wouldn't cry if the 2.5 went away and the 2.0T was made the base.  I would even be okay with the 1.6T being the replacement for the 2.5 because it has fuel economy and low end torque on its side, and when turned long ways could probably get another 10 horsepower squeezed out of it. That isn't what we're arguing here, we're arguing 6-cylinders.

If I have $43k in my hand and I want a luxury car with a V6 (and let's admit, there are those out there with the "no 4-cylinder luxury car" mentality), none of the Germans can satisfy that.  BMW gets the closest, but then I get a car with vinyl seats and basically no options.   To get the performance you are talking about from Mercedes, I have to spend at minimum $7,000 more.  I can get the performance without the options at BMW for $3k more, but if I want real leather and a few other things, I'm back to spending $7,000 or more just to get the same stuff I get in the ATS. 

Cadillac will have 3 additional engines to satisfy the performance needs and will likely exceed the performance of the Germans. 

The ATS 3.6 isn't all that cheap, it is priced in line with competition V6s as Z06 said.  I looked up a Road and Track comparo from 2013 and the ATS 3.6 Premium was $52,405, the most expensive car in the test.   The Lexus IS350 was $47k, 335i was $49k and the Infiniti Q50 was $51,805.   Car and Driver just did a coupe test last month, the ATS was $52k, the Lexus RC was $54k and Audi S4 $59k.  They are all in the $50k range.

What I'd like to see Cadillac do it put a 380 hp 3.0 liter TT V6 as an ATS V-sport and midlevel CTS engine that sort of would sit price wise were the current 3.6 V6 sits.   The CTS could start with 3.6 V6, dump the 4-banger because they hybrid will be there for fuel economy seekers, ATS I'd be tempted to do a base V6 so it starts with the middle Camaro engine.

 

The CTS is the cheapest car in its segment, and it is cheaper than the STS 10 years ago in that segment.  The car isn't over priced, it is under delivered.

 

Tell me how, don't just copulate.

 

As I put earlier in the thread, the CTS has the lowest starting price out of the E-class, 5-series, GS, XF, A6, or Q70.  They'd have to raise the price by $5,000 to make it class average price.  They are the value leader, but weak on sales.  When you win on price, but get outsold, the other cars must be winning at a lot of other things.  Base V6, better interior, more exciting rear end styling could have helped make more impact.

Remember the CTS is the freshest model in the segment too, the XF, E-class and 5-series are all getting new models in the next year or two.  The current generation A6, GS and Q70 came out in 2011, so those will be due for new models in a couple years too.

The ATS 3.6 isn't all that cheap, it is priced in line with competition V6s as Z06 said.  I looked up a Road and Track comparo from 2013 and the ATS 3.6 Premium was $52,405, the most expensive car in the test.   The Lexus IS350 was $47k, 335i was $49k and the Infiniti Q50 was $51,805.   Car and Driver just did a coupe test last month, the ATS was $52k, the Lexus RC was $54k and Audi S4 $59k.  They are all in the $50k range.

 

What I'd like to see Cadillac do it put a 380 hp 3.0 liter TT V6 as an ATS V-sport and midlevel CTS engine that sort of would sit price wise were the current 3.6 V6 sits.   The CTS could start with 3.6 V6, dump the 4-banger because they hybrid will be there for fuel economy seekers, ATS I'd be tempted to do a base V6 so it starts with the middle Camaro engine.

The way the cars are sent to the press fleets is not at all like how people buy them except for the rare niche vehicles.  No one buys a Regal AWD Turbo Premium-II with every option box checked including things like Active Cruise Control for $44k.... but that's the only way I ever see them in the press fleet.  It is a bit of a disservice to the readership, but it's not like we get to pick the cars that are sent to us.

That $52k ATS in 2013 was likely the most expensive ATS on the Cadillac lot at that point, but ATS V6es can be had for $10k cheaper.

You clearly haven't spent any length of time in an ATS though since you keep saying to dump the 2.0T.... the 2.0T is actually the better engine to get if you want a driver's car. It won't win drag races against a V6 model, but it is better balanced for handling. 

Maybe the best thing SMK could do is take a weekend and go to the dealers and actually drive near identical auto's having someone record the whole thing so we can see his impression of each one and if it really lives up to his comments on them.

 

 

 

 

Cadillac is very intentionally NOT following the German model at this point... they are actively thumbing their nose at it.

 

If this comment was for me - Good and that's what it should. But when you thumb the nose, you go one up, not one down. 3.6 is not a proper engine to go thumb the nose at when there are other powerful engines from the competitors.

 

 

The 3.6 ATS is $7k less than a C400 4Matic.  Start adding options and the delta between the two grows larger because Benz options are more expensive.  The ATS 3.6 is a V6 at C300 price, or a 328i price, or A4 2.0T price....

 

 

Now, now let us not go there. There's a difference between price and performance and I'm not talking about the former. This tweener mentality is what has got people like one of the posters on this thread talking about how the Cadillacs should be $5,000 to 6,000 less than what they are currently priced.

 

ATS 2.5 has BMW 320, IS250, nothing from other competitors. You have the 2.0T for 328, A4 2.0T, C300, etc. And then the 3.6 competing with the C400, IS350, S4, 335i (340i). If you match or offer the performance better than the competitors with less price then your performance value coefficient is excellent. When you have performance and value lower than competitors, then you are making excuses.

 

While I don't agree with a 5-6k drop, even a slight undercut wouldn't hurt.  We can say what we want, match toe to toe and win, but caddy still falls short on the image with the others. And it's GM's fault, plain and simple. Where's the marketing? Some kind of image? At least the Camaro has bumblebee.....but seriously- they have to find a way to get butts in seats to prove their worth (which will be good!), so news starts to spread. The product is there, but getting that message to the consumer seems to be the issue.

Beemers and Benz's images were not built overnight, and regardless of what is said, will take a while to really break in there..

And I do agree...don't give away the cars either...as it questions the quality of the brand.....

Cadillac is under cutting:

E-class:  $52,650

Jag XF:  $50,175

5-series: $49,950

GS350:   $48,600

Audi A6:  $46,200

CTS:        $45,345

C-class:   $38,400

Lexus IS:  $36,350

Audi A4:  $35,500

ATS:        $33,215

3-series:  $32,950

Im a little late to this party...but it is an interesting topic.

Ive read most of all posts in this thread, some of it I agree with...and obviously, some of it I dont.

I'll just give my two cents of why Johan should be left alone to do his thing.

First of all, he just got there.

Second of all, product development BEFORE he got there just hit the showroom...aka new gen CTS, ATS and soon CT6.

He made adjustments to the CT6.

He ressurected and green lit dead projects due to the bankruptcy.

The naming scheme can be discussed further if flop or success, but it is too early for that...however, his naming scheme has lots of logic to it.

All this Audi talk about him...well, Audi is reaping the benefits from his leadership as we speak.

Infiniti?

That would be on Nissan or Renault or both...not on Johan...

OK...here is my two cents on why it will get worse before it will get better...using Johan's words.

STAND ALONE Cadillac dealerships....Cadillac needs those.

Forget the value buyers....Cadillac SHOULD NOT be chasing those guys.

Therefore prices should remain where they are...if not higher than they are...however...a REAL luxury stand alone dealership is necessary to impress the "former" BMW, Mercedes, Lexus buyers.

Perception is part of Cadillac's problem...I agree...that is why price maybe a factor...because potential buyers dont view Cadillac as top tier 1 just yet...but part of that perception problem could be rectified with....stand alone deaerships.

1. Unique buying experience...especially compared to a regular GM store.

2. Cadillac could re-invent the dealership experience...to gain some luxury points too.

3. Cadillac needs EXPERT salespeople that KNOW the Cadillac...from engine to software to what kind of cow was used for the leather...and they need this type of salesperson to identify key buyer wants and needs...the LUXURY buyer that is...

4. A REAL stand alone LUXURY dealership also becomes a more personalized buying experience...with all the froo froo brown nosing techniques that luxury buyers EXPECT...

5. This applies at the service department as well....ESPECIALLY at the service department...How can a pampered stuck up luxury buyer feel rich and important when joe blow has his Cruze serviced at the same bloody dealership?

The 'buying experience /  dealership' thing is overrated, IMO. Sure, you want a decent, modern facility, but the 'buying experience' is so insanely brief vs. the ownership time span (even the 3 yr lease), that it is CUSTOMER SERVICE that is paramount, not the potted plants.

Then again, I personally don't harken to the whole 'snooty nose' fakery thing, either. I look for one thing; a good deal.

I walk into a $20,000,000 dealership and I KNOW I'm not getting one there.

Pricing remains the focus when it has little to do with the issues.

1) The cars (CTS and ATS) are not represented in areas their competition

2) The cars get no marketing. When is the last time U saw an ATS commercial?? For me, it was the one where the guys are running thru Italy (?). That was in 2013. I have never ever ever ever seen a CTS commercial. Not one.

3) The CTS doesn't have a Wagon, a Coupe, a Hi-Po (yet), a Hybrid, or a diesel.. and no convertible. The 5series and E-Class do. Wash, Rinse, Repeat for the ATS with exception to the Coupe.

4) Hey GM.. despite the fact that BMW and Benz do it.. no Cadillac should leave the factory without fog/auxiliary lights or HIDs. In fact.. U should just kill the "Standard" trim. "Luxury" trim should be your base.. but with the things I named above. 

Still trying to figure out how to post a youtube video

I agree with Balthazar about the dealership experience being over rated.  People don't buy a car based on what the show room looks like.  Personally I'd rather order a car online and skip the whole dealership process if that were doable.  Where the dealership experience matters would be in the service department.  Because you could take your car to a lot of places for service, so if the dealer wants to get repeat service business, they obviously need to have the facilities, customer service, loaner cars, etc to make people come back. 

From the consumer's end, I worry more about product that I use on a daily basis rather than the design of the store that it came from.

Agreed also on Cadillac ATS and CTS ads.  You hardly ever see either of them, so maybe their advertising budget is too small, or maybe it is too much wasted on "Dare" ads with a blurry CT6 that isn't even on sale yet.  Either way the marketing is a problem, has been for years.

About the luxury car buying experience...

You wanna bet that they dont look at that?

Besides...luxury car buying AINT about the "deal".

Sure...everybody looks for a deal, everybody WANTS a deal. But the luxury car buying public also want their butts to be kissed. You aint gonna get that with the 20 year car salesman with squeezing every commission dime out of the customer, and the back and forth useless haggling game...with the fake talks to the "manager"...

A stand alone dealership is much more than Italian marble floors and Picasso paintings on the wall...

Its also about expert carsalesmen, yes, with the same 20 year experience, but with a customer frst attitude. Complimentary lattes is a plus. Italian marble flooring is another plus.

And I dont want to quote directly as to not single out anybody...because Im still new here, and enemies I dont want to make...however...to the poster who said that if he will NEVER walk into an expensive dealership because he knows no deals will be had...well that is the thing...Cadillac does not need this type of customer...that is the type of customer Cadillac had from the late 1970s up until today...THAT is the image and customer that  Cadillac needs to walk away from...scratch that...run like hell away from...

Still trying to figure out how to post a youtube video

Just drop the Yuotube link in the regular quote box...it embeds it automatically. Easy as pie.

Pricing remains the focus when it has little to do with the issues.

 

1) The cars (CTS and ATS) are not represented in areas their competition

 

2) The cars get no marketing. When is the last time U saw an ATS commercial?? For me, it was the one where the guys are running thru Italy (?). That was in 2013. I have never ever ever ever seen a CTS commercial. Not one.

 

3) The CTS doesn't have a Wagon, a Coupe, a Hi-Po (yet), a Hybrid, or a diesel.. and no convertible. The 5series and E-Class do. Wash, Rinse, Repeat for the ATS with exception to the Coupe.

 

4) Hey GM.. despite the fact that BMW and Benz do it.. no Cadillac should leave the factory without fog/auxiliary lights or HIDs. In fact.. U should just kill the "Standard" trim. "Luxury" trim should be your base.. but with the things I named above. 

What I said...and this.

Well I had my ignition replaced at my Chevy dealer last week. They have built a new two story dealer to GM code. I can tell you the feeling about the dealer is a totally new experience. While I may still buy a car from a dealer that is a hole in the wall just based on price I would be more inclined to go to my local dealer first due to atmosphere. They would have first shot at a good price.

Hell their old waiting room was a hole and I mean a real S hole. The new one with a 70+ TV. A full time hostess that was there serving free drinks and snacks. A show room that had more than 3 cars in it including a Z/28 and Z06 I could play with.

I am hard core and to me a dealer is a dealer but I was impressed. Now roll this over to a general consumer and they will feel much better about being there at least coming in to look.

It is like Walmart vs. Target. Walmart has it all from Condoms to Ammo. Target it is hard to find much there compared to Wally world. But many people still shop there as it is often a much cleaner and better shopping experience. The rows are not crammed with crap and the shelves are all stocked well and it is clean. While not all Walmarts are a mess most are.

In this world where consumers are treating their cars more as an appliance the experience is much more important than it ever was. People expect a good price and their butts kissed. If that is what it takes to sell cars a MFG will pucker up all day.

Point is, do you want to pay for a wealthy car dealer's showroom trappings? Does this make you feel you've had a 'luxury experience'?
In what other mass-production consumer good does one weight the sales outlet so heavily (and I've seen no evidence any of Cadillac's competition's buyers weight it heavily at all)?

If -say- the German semi-lux brand buyers didn't value 'value', the sales-leading S-class wouldn't be seeing such high incentives to move the metal/plastic. It's an illusion.

Point is, do you want to pay for a wealthy car dealer's showroom trappings? Does this make you feel you've had a 'luxury experience'?

In what other mass-production consumer good does one weight the sales outlet so heavily (and I've seen no evidence any of Cadillac's competition's buyers weight it heavily at all)?

If -say- the German semi-lux brand buyers didn't value 'value', the sales-leading S-class wouldn't be seeing such high incentives to move the metal/plastic. It's an illusion.

Yeah...most luxury car sales ARE illusions...that is why they usually arent sales...but leases.

That is why I dont view a 3/4 Series BMW as a 'luxury' car...because in Europe...for so ,ong...the 3 Series was an econobox...in the 1980s...the base 3 Series Bimmer was on a level BELOW Cavaliers...everybody gave crap to GM/Cadillac for the Cimarron...but with the same marketing...BMW is regarded as a top flight luxury car maker...

Listen...a luxury car is about...luxury...

Luxury...well...it dont come cheap...

Luxury means you have to fork over the dough.

That means....no incentives...(hidden incentives as to not upset the luxury mindset)

Because this:

and this from Cal...yeah..even a Canuck from Quebec has heard of Cal...

wont work anymore...

Cadillac needs to get away from this...and some Chevy/Buick/GMC stores are exactly like this...still today...in 2015...

but I maybe wrong...maybe Cadillac does not need to become like a boutique car company...same ole, same ole cheesy American land yachts is what they should continue peddling with carsalesmen smoking their cheap cigarillos hanging from the side of their mouths begging for customers to buy a Fleetwood with 5-6-7 thousand dollars off the hood because...well "because its you, baby"

Obviously you don't want a car dealership that is building about to fall over or with carpet from the 70s in it. But most any new car dealership regardless of brand is pretty new or well maintained in the Pittsburgh area.

I don't think dealerships are the reason Cadillac struggles with sales or why another brand does well with sales. I think it is about product and marketing.

Obviously you don't want a car dealership that is building about to fall over or with carpet from the 70s in it. But most any new car dealership regardless of brand is pretty new or well maintained in the Pittsburgh area.

I don't think dealerships are the reason Cadillac struggles with sales or why another brand does well with sales. I think it is about product and marketing.

Product?

maybe a lack of it.

Marketing?

maybe a lack of it.

Lack of a strong dealership network? Possibly an independant stand alone dealership network?

Definitely.

Speaks volumes when Johan is telling and EXPLAINING to its Cadillac dealership network that there should be NO cash back incentives and that they should brace for WORSE times ahead....and it speaks volumes that some of these dealerships cant comprehend that...and it speaks volumes that some of these dealerships dont have the patience to go forward with that thinking...and want results...NOW...with cheesy cash back solutions..to get volume back...

Volume will come...when the luxury buyer feels the need for Cadillacs...when the perception is their...like when you arrived to an event in a Cadillac...it meant you had...arrived...

Again...in 2015...actually...when the Japanese started peddling luxury cars in the late 1980s...is when the stand alone luxury dealership took precedence...must we continue to think that the Japanese dont make luxury cars?

Lexus sure will disagree.

Hell...even Acura might want to argue that...OK...they have faltered...Acura that is...but...Acura does seem to have a strong stand alone deaership network...its their dull product offerings that are not so luxurious...but they seem to sell a boatload of MDXs though...

Well which is it? Is a 'stand alone dealer network' crucial (Cadillac) or isn't it (Acura)?

BTW- You HAVE to know the above linked Ralph Williams ad wasn't an actual, broadcast advertisement, right?

Well which is it? Is a 'stand alone dealer network' crucial (Cadillac) or isn't it (Acura)?

 

BTW- You HAVE to know the above linked Ralph Williams ad wasn't an actual, broadcast advertisement, right?

Acura has a stand alone dealership...

If you cant tell that from my post...sorry...but I think the message was clear...maybe you got sidetracked...becasue Acura...

Well...Acura...it DESTROYED Cadillac in the 1990s...

Who cares if that spot of Ralph did not air...I am a Canuck...

The thing is...cheesey sales tactics of Chevy showrooms is what is selling Cadillacs right now...

If you cant see that...well, thank the lord its Johan in charge of Cadillac and not you...BTW...Johan did mention that some deaerships will be going the stand alone way...and more to come as the years go by...

PS: Laugh at Acura...because the tone you gave me was that Acura is not a good way for Cadillac to learn how to sell luxury...

Acura's problem is not with how they selll, but what they sell...

Cadillac's problem is not exactly what they sell, as their current crop is fantastic...some improvements need to be made...

But its HOW they sell them...

Lack of marketing...and part of that marketing is the stores themselves...

Kisten..I posted this message quite a bit. I dont want to sound like a broken record...

Its just an opinion...take it or leave it.

I know one thing...you wont convince me otherwise...

Being a Canuck has no bearing on your posting an implied current day sales tactic that in fact is (obviously) a complete spoof ad that was NEVER a sales tactic in 1968 OR today.

The bottom line is there is never a singular cause for a given performance (sales) result in the auto industry, just like the "best" product in a given vehicle segment is still surrounded by competing models from other manufacturers.

While some critics claim Cadillac is too often trying to pedal a 'value' business model in selling their cars…. these same critics frequently point to much lower lease rates by other brands, missing the point completely that lower lease rates are without question, pandering to value-minded shoppers. 

Again- there's no singular cause in an industry as complex as the auto industry.

Being a Canuck has no bearing on your posting an implied current day sales tactic that in fact is (obviously) a complete spoof ad that was NEVER a sales tactic in 1968 OR today.

 

The bottom line is there is never a singular cause for a given performance (sales) result in the auto industry, just like the "best" product in a given vehicle segment is still surrounded by competing models from other manufacturers.

 

While some critics claim Cadillac is too often trying to pedal a 'value' business model in selling their cars…. these same critics frequently point to much lower lease rates by other brands, missing the point completely that lower lease rates are without question, pandering to value-minded shoppers. 

 

Again- there's no singular cause in an industry as complex as the auto industry.

The thing is though...that spoof sales tactic...well..Cal used it...

The thing is though...that cheesy Chavy salesmen sell Cadillacs...

The thing is though...walk into a Porsche dealership...and you dont have that.

The thing is though...walk even into a BMW deaship....and you dont have that...

Yes...in 2015...a GM store is still full of cheese...

Picture below...Cadillac is in the middle of that store...yet you have to walk by 4 Chevys...4 BLUE COLLAR Chevy sports cars...

Picture below...

Cadillac is on the right...with a cheesy Chevy style look...

And Chevy sports car when you walk into dealership...and you walk into a Chevy discount store...before you walk into luxury?

Yeah...that helps out with Cadillac being a top tier 1 luxury car maker...

Picture below...

This picture drives home the message

You have the base cheap Chevy pick-up truck...with ugly black bumpers and plastic black grille greeting you on the way to buy yourself a very expensive car...

Listen dude..if you cant see that the picture below could restore some luxury perception of Cadillac and help roll out more Cadillacs in the process...I cant help you...

Look at BMW

And this Cadillac dealership...

Major difference from the pics above....

Plus...

This is the lifestyle you want to sell...and you can do that in the stand alone dealership

Look at the luxury

Not this...

Yeah I know...Older pic...but I gotta go to work to find a more recent pic...however...some dealerships have Cadillacs in between Chevys...Ive seen pics...recent pics...

Think about that for awhile..and think about what it is to buy a dream....a luxury dream....not a "deal"...at a discount store...full of chessy salesmen lookin to sell a "deal" and not a "dream"...

I used to be a Sales manager, Finance manager, and later General Manager of a dealership back in the day. I will tell U that my sales force had mad closing skills, and could easily pull the numbers in using sanctioned tactics that to some in these new decades of SOFT-SELLING would be called obnoxious or intimidating. 

I agree with Oldshurst in that the dealer's staff should be knowledgeable about product to the point of nausea. I will tell anyone reading that most dealership sales staff ARE NOT. Sometimes they get bulletins and sales material pertaining to new product the same time that U see it nowadays on the Web. What that means is many sales staff of any particular brand.. may not have as much knowledge us, the enthusiasts browsing the web everyday. They should though. Sometimes this is on purpose. A Dealership owner.. will go to a big sales shen-dig with his Gen Manager.. Salesmanger.. and a few other senior staffers, but will not relay info gathered at said event until the product is within weeks of launch. For instance, I guarantee that the CT6 isn't being talked about with sales staff yet, because it could be a deterrent for them making a sale of an XTS.. or CTS. They damn sure wouldn't bring up the fact that the 2016 ATS is gonna have an 8speed or upgraded CUE unless U do.. and even then they are supposed to veer U back on topic.. getting U in the product that is available TODAY. No one in a dealership should even remotely be talking about the Gen6 Camaro while they are still trying to move Gen5 Camaros. The only person U might want to speak to about a Gen6 would be someone who bought a Gen5  14 days ago. U don't want to deal with a customer who want to return a vehicle for any reason. Saying NO.. could result in loss of future business. 

As for the Luxury dealer. They really aren't much different than a Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Hyundai dealer fundamentally, but they should be a bit more accommodating in relaying the luxury car buying experience via pampering. The difference between a Cadillac dealer and a Benz, Lexus, or BMW one is almost zero in 2015. All pamper the $h! outta U. The problem for Cadillac.. and Cadillac alone is that it is normally attached to another dealership due to the Old GM. When that happens U have some seepage coming in from the attached Chevy dealership. The way some of these dealers are handling this problem is upgrading the Chevy dealership and employees.

This is pretty much what my dealership looks like now (Below) before he looked like (above) but instead of Chevy he had Pontiacs. When the BK occurred.. he was offered Buick as a replacement, but (by his own admission a mistake) opted out thinking Buick was a dead brand. 

Another big issue with Cadillac's dealer network is that it is larger. And in many places that simply shouldn't have a luxury brand.. Think in the rural areas, where a person desiring a BMW  or Lexus would have to ride 30 miles to buy a car, but experience a professional urbanite..  a Cadillac buyer gets to deal with Ma and Pa Kettle. 

The above graphic shows a problem that JDN is tackling. Dealership profits will lag because they are splitting a pie in too many pieces. The only saving grace for that dealership is that it also has that Chevy + franchise attached to it. 

I think Cadillac needs different kinds of pairings.    Rather than being a Cadillac/Chevy dealer, they need to get in with the luxury dealership groups.  It needs to be Cadillac, Jaguar, Land Rover, BMW,.... or like I saw in a suburb north of Chicago - Cadillac, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Spyker

"My" Cadillac dealership used to be a Cadillac-Oldsmobile dealer.  I haven't been up that way in a long time, but the dealership is/was one of the late 60's early 70's designs and really stood out as old and decrepit next to the sparkling new MB, and Jaguar, and BMW dealerships on the same road.   Even the Honda and Mazda dealers seemed nicer.

Good pictures of the dealerships.  The ones with the Cadillac section in the corner do look bad, and the stand alone looks better.  Although Cadillac also has over 900 dealerships so they are easily accessible.  So the image may hurt a little when it is sold in the corner of the Chevy store, but they have more exposure too.