Cadillac Readies for European Push, Talks About What the Future Holds

 

To be clear, I think 100% of Cadillac's models should have a V-series version.  If they are going to build a CTS-V and tout the performance, then all other vehicles in the lineup should be treated the same way.  I have also often said Cadillac should have a performance car above Corvette as well.

 

What baffles me is Cadillac fans here saying no thanks, we don't want a twin turbo V6 crossover, we don't want a mid-engine supercar, we don't want a V8 convertible, we don't want a twin Turbo V8 full size crossover, no thanks to a supercharged V8 Escalade, the XT5 is the pinnacle of automotive performance, no reason to build anything better.

That is the most asinine thing you've said on this entire thread.

 

I missed the second part SMK...

Nobody hear has said ANY of that....

Other than for high performance SUVs...

The flip side to selling high volumes of SUVs....and THAT is what I was saying....

http://www.autonews.com/article/20140816/OEM/308189984/porsches-record-sales-could-endanger-exclusivity-tech-leadership

From Aug 2014...

Porsche's record sales could endanger exclusivity, tech leadership

Strong global demand has Volkswagen Group's sports car brand on course to top its goal of 200,000 annual vehicle sales this year or next -- well ahead of its 2018 deadline.

But the sales surge has some industry watchers worried that Porsche's parent is placing too much emphasis on volume. That could rob the brand of its exclusivity and increase the danger of quality problems.

So far these aren't pressing issues at Porsche...

 

 

VW sank itself with the Diesel thing...if you think that Im all doom and gloom...

And yes...I dont care for small, yuppie mobile soccer mom trash CUVs...."M" badge or "V" badge...

And many dont either...

Escalades and Cayennes sell...because many poseurs are around us...

But....these guys..the REAL SUV guys....they spend MORE money on their one Wrangler or Hilux truck than what a Cayenne and Escalade costs TOGETHER...

You know....spending the money to lift it, the tires, suspensions....and then spending the money to fi the broken parts after a week-end off roading...

These guys are not poseurs...and dont want to impress anyone. It is us that go goo goo gaa gga over them.

The Cayenne guys and the Escalade guys....want that same attention though...

 

To be clear, I think 100% of Cadillac's models should have a V-series version.  If they are going to build a CTS-V and tout the performance, then all other vehicles in the lineup should be treated the same way.  I have also often said Cadillac should have a performance car above Corvette as well.

 

What baffles me is Cadillac fans here saying no thanks, we don't want a twin turbo V6 crossover, we don't want a mid-engine supercar, we don't want a V8 convertible, we don't want a twin Turbo V8 full size crossover, no thanks to a supercharged V8 Escalade, the XT5 is the pinnacle of automotive performance, no reason to build anything better.

That is the most asinine thing you've said on this entire thread.

 

You are a Cadillac fan you seem happy that Cadillac's mid-size SUV starts at $39,000 while the German mid-sizers are over $50k, and you seem to think 310 hp is the max power Cadillac should put in a crossover.  Don't you want more than that?

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Suzy McMansion does NOT care which wheels drive the car as long as they all do.  Suzy McMansion doesn't care which way the engine faces... she couldn't tell even if she popped the hood, which she won't, and she won't understand why it would even matter.  Suzy McMansion does NOT care or has even HEARD of the nurburgring.  All she wants to know is if it has automatic climate control, navigation, bluetooth, AWD, and heated seats for $4000 down and $499 a month.

As for Hilde Hausfrau over in Germany, she'd want to know that the engine is clean (dirtier engines can't go into certain cities) and if she can buy it in a diesel or not.  Das ist Alles.

But Suzy McMansion buys the lowest common denominator luxury crossover which is the Lexus RX.  Suzy as you said caps her purchase at $499 a month.  What about the more discriminating buyers that will pay $999 a month for a crossover?    Suzy McMansion's parents you could argue are happy with a Buick LaCrosse since it has leather, heated seats and a V6 and is $499 a month, but Cadillac makes a 400 hp CT6 too don't they.

You can run the price of a Porsche Macan $30,000 above an Escalade ESV Platinum and the Macan is about the size of a Buick Envision, and it shares a platform with the Audi Q5.  Think of the insane profit margin on a Macan.  

Ill answer that question for myself.

Drew pointed out....again...and what Ive also being saying...about a X3 CUV, CUVs in general...and about BMW too with Ms. McMansion and Frau Hausfrau...

Ill answer this with MY personal opinion on it..

Well...a crossover thing is usually heavier and taller than its car platformed car brother.

Why would I want a taller, heavier CUV compared to a lower to the ground, leaner automobile based on the same platform car?

Im a car crazy guy...

I want to squeeze all the benefits of that 300 horsepower or more engine and I need my car to hug the road when I turn...and a CUV is usually tall. I might roll her over....

Then Id like to stop...A CUV is usually heavier...

So...why would I go for an automobile that is inherently crappy for such shenanigans?

Remember, I aint Suzy McMansion nor Heidi/Hilde/Helga Hausfrau...

And if I truly want an SUV....it wont be the kind that is just for show...a glorified station wagon because I got an image to protect and that is why I refuse to call it a station wagon or minivan...

So....an "X" or "V" badge diminutive CUV is an oxymoron....that will NEVER succeed...

Trust me....Suzy McMansion sometimes....does not want a Ford Escape or even Edge...

She wants a badge....

A 3 Series is too low for her. She feels comfortable being high...

Also....she sees Kardashian clowns in the uber expensive G Wagen but Suzy cannot afford the X5 payments and the Ford Edge is beneath her so she settles for the BMW X3...

On a side note, I just learned the GLE550 hybrid is on sale now for $65,550 which is only $950 more than a GLE400.  And the GLE hybrid has 436 hp, 0-60 in 5.3 seconds and has an MPRe rating of 39/50.  What does the XT5 have?  310 hp and 18/26 mpg.  Where is the hybrid for the Euro cities that are emission free, and have congestion charges such as London.

SMK, you have to look at the target market for these vehicles.  The up-level engine in the RX is the hybrid that sells the most, not some 500hp F-Sport model. 

I think all Cadillacs are going Plug-In hybrid as an option in the next few years.

But Suzy McMansion buys the lowest common denominator luxury crossover which is the Lexus RX.  Suzy as you said caps her purchase at $499 a month.  What about the more discriminating buyers that will pay $999 a month for a crossover?    Suzy McMansion's parents you could argue are happy with a Buick LaCrosse since it has leather, heated seats and a V6 and is $499 a month, but Cadillac makes a 400 hp CT6 too don't they.

 

You can run the price of a Porsche Macan $30,000 above an Escalade ESV Platinum and the Macan is about the size of a Buick Envision, and it shares a platform with the Audi Q5.  Think of the insane profit margin on a Macan.  

Escalade and as the article mentions, Coming Soon - Something Between XT5 and Escalade.... lets call it the XT6.

Well...a crossover thing is usually heavier and taller than its car platformed car brother.

Why would I want a taller, heavier CUV compared to a lower to the ground, leaner automobile based on the same platform car?

 

Im a car crazy guy...

I want to squeeze all the benefits of that 300 horsepower or more engine and I need my car to hug the road when I turn...and a CUV is usually tall. I might roll her over....

Then Id like to stop...A CUV is usually heavier...

 

So...why would I go for an automobile that is inherently crappy for such shenanigans?

Remember, I aint Suzy McMansion nor Heidi/Hilde/Helga Hausfrau...

The first 2 paragraphs I 100% agree with.  The car that is lighter, lower, etc will have better handling, braking, acceleration, etc.  The car will perform far better than a crossover/SUV built on the same or similar platform.  I would take the car 10 times out of 10 over the SUV also.

You, me, and other car fans are the reason the M5 or E63 or CTS-V, etc came out.  There were enough people that wanted more than a 540i, more than an E430, so they put performance car engines in sedans and now you have a slew of 500 hp super sedans out there.   These performance buyers will keep buying their performance sedans, Porsches, Corvettes, etc, they aren't going to buy an X5 M, unless it is a 2nd car or alternative to their Porsche 911.

But think of how many people buy crossovers now, and won't consider a sedan.  Those people only want to shop for a crossover/suv, and this is like 35-40% of all car buyers.  There is a segment of that crowd that will say I want more than an X3 drive 28i, they will want more power and performance than the Lexus RX they have been driving the past 5 years, and they will walk into BMW and say...

And they'll by a 450 hp X3.

SMK, you have to look at the target market for these vehicles.  The up-level engine in the RX is the hybrid that sells the most, not some 500hp F-Sport model. 

 

I think all Cadillacs are going Plug-In hybrid as an option in the next few years.

But Suzy McMansion buys the lowest common denominator luxury crossover which is the Lexus RX.  Suzy as you said caps her purchase at $499 a month.  What about the more discriminating buyers that will pay $999 a month for a crossover?    Suzy McMansion's parents you could argue are happy with a Buick LaCrosse since it has leather, heated seats and a V6 and is $499 a month, but Cadillac makes a 400 hp CT6 too don't they.

 

You can run the price of a Porsche Macan $30,000 above an Escalade ESV Platinum and the Macan is about the size of a Buick Envision, and it shares a platform with the Audi Q5.  Think of the insane profit margin on a Macan.  

 

Escalade and as the article mentions, Coming Soon - Something Between XT5 and Escalade.... lets call it the XT6.

I hope that XT6 is based on Omega with the CT6's 400 hp twin turbo V6 and coming 4.2 liter turbo V8.  But it will probably be a long wheel base XT5, basically the size of an Enclave with the same 3.6 liter as the range topper pulling 5,000 lbs of weight.

And the Escalade is slow and under powered and not good at handling.  What if I want sub 5 second 0-60 time in my crossover?  That is no crazier than people wanting sub 4 second 0-60 time in their sedan.

And then that BMW X3 M driver will realize that a straight six with massive boost isn't enough, and they will say...

And they will go to the local Mercedes dealer and say

And trade that X3 M in on an AMG GLC63 with a 503 hp V8.

Then 5 years later they will go back to the same Mercedes dealership and say...

And then they will buy a GLE63 with 612 hp, and the cycle continues.

That is where I differ from your opinion.

I dont think ANYBODY that buys a CUV or SUV cares for performance...

If they did, they would buy the sedan to begin with...

Including the Cayenne.

The Cayenne sells because of the badge on the front of the vehicle...and because it is a Porsche, power-horsepower- has got to be advertised...

So why is Jeep putting a Hellcat in a Grand Cherokee?  There are people that have a Grand Cherokee with a Hemi, that will want more.  Why isn't that Grand Cherokee SRT buyer buying a BMW M3 is they care about performance?  Because someone out there is buying SRT Grand Cherokees.

And some people don't want to go up in size.  Someone driving a 535i or GLE350 when they trade up, they might not want a 7-series or a 3-row GLS, they might just want more power, performance, features and go to an M5 or AMG version of the GLE.  

This is a void Cadillac misses, if you have an SRX or XT5 and want a more luxurious, or better performing vehicle, and don't want a full size SUV, then you have to leave the brand.  Not everyone wants to trade up in size, this is easily shown by how full size sedan sales are falling off the map.  Full size SUV/crossover are flat for a lot of models, but small and mid-size crossover are on fire.

they will buy more, then more, then more, then more…

The very demonstrable problem with this theory is car buyers DO NOT do that. They don't continually trade up & up on models, it's an anomaly if it happens.

Look at BMW: 5 series sales are 50% of 3-series, and 7-series sales are 20-25% of 5 series sales. Where did all the trade up consumers go??

Answer: they keep buying the same class for the vast majority. People aren't buying a 300HP Class X, then a 450HP Class X, then a 600HP Class X. 

 

they will buy more, then more, then more, then more…

 

The very demonstrable problem with this theory is car buyers DO NOT do that. They don't continually trade up & up on models, it's an anomaly if it happens.

Look at BMW: 5 series sales are 50% of 3-series, and 7-series sales are 20-25% of 5 series sales. Where did all the trade up consumers go??

 

Answer: they keep buying the same class for the vast majority. People aren't buying a 300HP Class X, then a 450HP Class X, then a 600HP Class X. 

 

That is sort of my point, they aren't trading up to a bigger model, they trade up within the model line.  The 328i driver trades up to a 335i or 340i, the 340i driver trades up to an M3 or a 440i Grand Coupe which is just a 340i that he paid more money for since it says "grand coupe" on the trunk even though it doesn't look like a coupe and it isn't grand.  That 340i driver that wants more doesn't want a 7-series size car, so the M3 works better for them.  If there was no high performance 3-series, BMW would lose that customer.

Now in Mercedes case, the GLE outsells the GLC, and the E-class years ago outsold the C-class, but the C-class has really grown its numbers recently.  GLC and GLE only have 6 inches of length difference between them, that is an easy trade up, but for an XT5, where do you trade up to?  The full size truck Escalade?  No you don't,  you trade for a BMW X5 or Mercedes GLE and never go back.  Cadillac loses a customer.

Think of this, Cadillac could sell 50-60,000 XT5 in a year.  If it had an LT1 Corvette engine in there for $65k, they couldn't get 5% of XT5 buyers to buy that?  That is 3,000 sales at a good profit margin.  

CTS sells about 15,000 cars a year, even if V-series is a 15% take rate (which is generous) that is 2,250 high margin sales per year.

That is sort of my point, they aren't trading up to a bigger model, they trade up within the model line.  The 328i driver trades up to a 335i or 340i, the 340i driver trades up to an M3….

So post a chart of 328, 335, 340, 350 (whatever), up thru the M3, let's see if the sales volumes support your theory.

Should be pretty close volumes since the model lineup has been around a long while; should be plenty of M3 buyers having climbed that ladder by now.

Expecting to see M3 sales at least 60% of 328 sales……...

They don't all trade up to an M3 obviously. Most could not afford too. But you have to offer that high end option for those that want more. It is why there is a V-series.

High trim levels are where the profits live. Porsche is the classic example. I went on the Porsche website and built a 911 Carrara 4S and was able to put over $72,000 in options. $3,000 was PDK transmission and there was no engine upgrade. That is $69,000 of paint, trim, equipment, wheels, etc, crazy profit margin.

High trim levels are where the profit PER CAR lives. LOW volume keep the profit revenue from those high trims low.

How many Range Rover Autobiographys do the sell? 

In general I agree- the 'high-zoot' trim levels gather some interest, sell some vehicles. But a lot of profit on the bottom line? Doubtful.

For those people fixated on the balance sheet of corporate manufacturers, I don't see this as of much interest to them. 

- - - - - 

Your porsche example seems to imply that that $69K in options was ALL profit. It's not, of course.

If anything, people are trading down as car prices outpace salaries. You can see that in your Eclass to Cclass statistic. You can see it in the Suburban to traverse statistics. You can see it in the Taurus to Fusion statistics. You can even see it at the bottom of the market in Civic and Fit.

If anything, people are trading down as car prices outpace salaries. You can see that in your Eclass to Cclass statistic. You can see it in the Suburban to traverse statistics. You can see it in the Taurus to Fusion statistics. You can even see it at the bottom of the market in Civic and Fit.

To go with this..kind of..

Personally, I would rather have a loaded up smaller vehicle than a stripped down larger vehicle. I could have bought an Edge when I bought my escape but it would have been a lesser trim, 2wd(not like I NEED AWD), and it would have literally only been a larger vehicle. 

 

If anything, people are trading down as car prices outpace salaries. You can see that in your Eclass to Cclass statistic. You can see it in the Suburban to traverse statistics. You can see it in the Taurus to Fusion statistics. You can even see it at the bottom of the market in Civic and Fit.

To go with this..kind of..

 

Personally, I would rather have a loaded up smaller vehicle than a stripped down larger vehicle. I could have bought an Edge when I bought my escape but it would have been a lesser trim, 2wd(not like I NEED AWD), and it would have literally only been a larger vehicle. 

 

This trend is exactly what is fueling the sub-compact crossover market.   When the Encore first came out it was really the first of its kind.  The Nissan Juke was there, but it doesn't really have any usable space or rear seat room.  Buick was very specifically targeting people coming out of Explorers, Volvo XC90s, Highlanders, etc, who no longer wanted to wheel around such large vehicles and no longer needed that sort of room. 

People trading down is exactly why the GLA, CLA, A3, Q3, X1, 1/2-series, Encore, Trax, etc exist.   

If anything, people are trading down as car prices outpace salaries. You can see that in your Eclass to Cclass statistic. You can see it in the Suburban to traverse statistics. You can see it in the Taurus to Fusion statistics. You can even see it at the bottom of the market in Civic and Fit.

But a car like the Fusion has gone up in price to where the Taurus was.  And people are turning away from larger cars.

I do agree that car prices are rising faster than salaries, which really puts a boom on cars like Escape, Soul, Elantra, Rogue, Fusion, etc.  A lot of those used to be bare bones model cars, but now have the power heated seats, nav-system, apple car play, and upgraded stereo that used to be on the luxury cars.  

 

If anything, people are trading down as car prices outpace salaries. You can see that in your Eclass to Cclass statistic. You can see it in the Suburban to traverse statistics. You can see it in the Taurus to Fusion statistics. You can even see it at the bottom of the market in Civic and Fit.

But a car like the Fusion has gone up in price to where the Taurus was.  And people are turning away from larger cars.

 

I do agree that car prices are rising faster than salaries, which really puts a boom on cars like Escape, Soul, Elantra, Rogue, Fusion, etc.  A lot of those used to be bare bones model cars, but now have the power heated seats, nav-system, apple car play, and upgraded stereo that used to be on the luxury cars.  

 

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not.

People want those features you listed and are willing to downsize to get it. Just like someone who bought a C-class in 2006 probably is going for a CLA today because the C-Class is out of their range, and clearly coming from an '06 C-Class interior quality isn't a deciding factor. 

High trim levels are where the profit PER CAR lives. LOW volume keep the profit revenue from those high trims low.

How many Range Rover Autobiographys do the sell? 

 

In general I agree- the 'high-zoot' trim levels gather some interest, sell some vehicles. But a lot of profit on the bottom line? Doubtful.

For those people fixated on the balance sheet of corporate manufacturers, I don't see this as of much interest to them. 

 

- - - - - 

Your porsche example seems to imply that that $69K in options was ALL profit. It's not, of course.

General Motors first quarter this year posted a $1.95 billion profit.  Porsche for the first quarter had a $992 million profit.   GM sold 9.8 million cars per year, and Porsche sold 225,000.   GM sells 44 cars to every 1 Porsche, beats them only 2 to 1 in real profit dollars.  Porsche makes more total profit dollars (or Euros in this case) per year than VW brand, and VW brand sells 5 million cars a year.

 

 

If anything, people are trading down as car prices outpace salaries. You can see that in your Eclass to Cclass statistic. You can see it in the Suburban to traverse statistics. You can see it in the Taurus to Fusion statistics. You can even see it at the bottom of the market in Civic and Fit.

To go with this..kind of..

 

Personally, I would rather have a loaded up smaller vehicle than a stripped down larger vehicle. I could have bought an Edge when I bought my escape but it would have been a lesser trim, 2wd(not like I NEED AWD), and it would have literally only been a larger vehicle. 

 

 

This trend is exactly what is fueling the sub-compact crossover market.   When the Encore first came out it was really the first of its kind.  The Nissan Juke was there, but it doesn't really have any usable space or rear seat room.  Buick was very specifically targeting people coming out of Explorers, Volvo XC90s, Highlanders, etc, who no longer wanted to wheel around such large vehicles and no longer needed that sort of room. 

 

People trading down is exactly why the GLA, CLA, A3, Q3, X1, 1/2-series, Encore, Trax, etc exist.   

 

Or are they trading up from a CR-V or Rav4 into X1, GLA, etc?    People want luxury brand names, and compact SUVs like Escape, Rav4 and CRV together can sell nearly a million units a year.  Even if 5% of those people go to a luxury compact crossover, that is 50,000 new buyers.

Size creep plays a role here too, a CLA is larger than a 2007 C-class, look at a 90s 3-series compared to today's 3-series.  Look at a 90s Accord compared to the near full size Accord they sell now.   If you had a 2005 Malibu and liked that size car and walk into a Chevy dealer, the Cruze is closer to that size than the current Malibu is, so maybe you just buy the Cruze that has enough room and a lower payment.

 

 

 

If anything, people are trading down as car prices outpace salaries. You can see that in your Eclass to Cclass statistic. You can see it in the Suburban to traverse statistics. You can see it in the Taurus to Fusion statistics. You can even see it at the bottom of the market in Civic and Fit.

To go with this..kind of..

 

Personally, I would rather have a loaded up smaller vehicle than a stripped down larger vehicle. I could have bought an Edge when I bought my escape but it would have been a lesser trim, 2wd(not like I NEED AWD), and it would have literally only been a larger vehicle. 

 

 

This trend is exactly what is fueling the sub-compact crossover market.   When the Encore first came out it was really the first of its kind.  The Nissan Juke was there, but it doesn't really have any usable space or rear seat room.  Buick was very specifically targeting people coming out of Explorers, Volvo XC90s, Highlanders, etc, who no longer wanted to wheel around such large vehicles and no longer needed that sort of room. 

 

People trading down is exactly why the GLA, CLA, A3, Q3, X1, 1/2-series, Encore, Trax, etc exist.   

 

Or are they trading up from a CR-V or Rav4 into X1, GLA, etc?    People want luxury brand names, and compact SUVs like Escape, Rav4 and CRV together can sell nearly a million units a year.  Even if 5% of those people go to a luxury compact crossover, that is 50,000 new buyers.

 

Size creep plays a role here too, a CLA is larger than a 2007 C-class, look at a 90s 3-series compared to today's 3-series.  Look at a 90s Accord compared to the near full size Accord they sell now.   If you had a 2005 Malibu and liked that size car and walk into a Chevy dealer, the Cruze is closer to that size than the current Malibu is, so maybe you just buy the Cruze that has enough room and a lower payment.

 

You're describing a trade up in class combined with a trade down in size. My point stands.  People are willing to downsize to get the features they want... even if the only feature they are gaining is a 3-pointed star. 

 

 

If anything, people are trading down as car prices outpace salaries. You can see that in your Eclass to Cclass statistic. You can see it in the Suburban to traverse statistics. You can see it in the Taurus to Fusion statistics. You can even see it at the bottom of the market in Civic and Fit.

But a car like the Fusion has gone up in price to where the Taurus was.  And people are turning away from larger cars.

 

I do agree that car prices are rising faster than salaries, which really puts a boom on cars like Escape, Soul, Elantra, Rogue, Fusion, etc.  A lot of those used to be bare bones model cars, but now have the power heated seats, nav-system, apple car play, and upgraded stereo that used to be on the luxury cars.  

 

 

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not.

 

People want those features you listed and are willing to downsize to get it. Just like someone who bought a C-class in 2006 probably is going for a CLA today because the C-Class is out of their range, and clearly coming from an '06 C-Class interior quality isn't a deciding factor. 

 

I partly agree.  There are some trading down.  I am sure there are people that had an 06 C280 and for them the CLA is enough car and meets their needs and it is sized like their C280, and the C300 is now $45,000 with some equipment, maybe that is a shock since they paid $36,000 for that C280.   But the C-class in 2015 sold better than it did in 2012.   C-class sales are higher now than they were before the CLA was on sale.

The best year ever for the E-class in the USA was 2013 with 69,830 sales, they sold 55,683 in 2003 during the first year of the W211 model.  So the C-class hasn't really stolen from the E-class, it is a rising tide lifts all boats scenario.  The E-class is doing better now than it was, in 2008 they only sold 38,576 as the economy slowed and that was near the end of the W211 life cycle.

I think as size and price creep pushes a car like a Fusion to 194 inches long and $36,000, some past Fusion buyers will buy a $25,000 Focus.  They traded down on the name plate, but the 2016 Focus probably has everything their 2009 Fusion had and more.  I think these compact luxury segments come from part trade down, and but mostly trade up from a compact non-lux car.

WRT Porsche; they only have 1 assembly plant (plus the cayenne is built with its tourag & Q7 platform mates). Overhead is a paper-thin sliver of GM's.

WRT Porsche; they only have 1 assembly plant (plus the cayenne is built with its tourag & Q7 platform mates). Overhead is a paper-thin sliver of GM's.

Cayenne is a VW platform

Caymen is built on a VW platform

Panamera is built on a VW platform

Saying Porsche did it on its own is dishonest.

Why doesn't Cadillac have Porsche-like profit margins?  Or even Audi-group-like profit.   They have help from GM platforms.   Cadillac run correctly could generate 50% of GM's profit.

Why doesn't Cadillac have Porsche-like profit margins?  Or even Audi-group-like profit.   They have help from GM platforms.   Cadillac run correctly could generate 50% of GM's profit.

What makes you think it isn't?

Margins on Cadillac are, by far, the highest in the organization per car. Trucks are a close second.

I'd be surprised if there is much margin on a Cruze at all, but selling Cruzes allows the selling of high margin Acadias and Traverses.