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  • Drew Dowdell
    Drew Dowdell

    Cadillac Electrifies an Icon with the Cadillac Escalade IQ

      450 miles of range from an all-electric full-size SUV

    2025-cadillac-escalade-iq-sport-002.jpgToday, Cadillac unveiled the newest member of their electrified lineup, the 2025 Cadillac Escalade IQ. With The Escalade IQ, Cadillac introduces the first full-size electric SUV to the market. Like the Silverado EV that rides on the same Ultium platform, the Escalade IQ will offer up to 450 miles of range.

    The Escalade IQ is powered by a dual-motor system capable of producing up to 750 horsepower and 785 lb-ft of torque, delivering a 0-60 time of less than 5 seconds when in the driver-selectable Velocity Max setting. The preliminary towing capability estimate is targeted at 8,000 lbs. Electricity is provided by a 24-module Ultium battery with 200 kWh of available energy. The system architecture is compatible with 800-volt charging, the fastest currently available, and can take on 100 miles of range in as little as 10 minutes. Vehicle-to-Home charging will be available via a software update in the future when combined with Ultium Home products, while Vehicle-to-Load enables the E-IQ to power larger external devices.

    One-Pedal Driving, Variable Regen on Demand, and an innovative heat pump thermal system help extend range and increase passenger comfort.

    Four-wheel steer reduces the turning radius to 39.4 ft, a 6.5 ft reduction versus not using four-wheel steer. Cadillac arrival mode is a four-wheel steer feature that allows the Escalade IQ to move diagonally, making it easier to pull in and out of tight spaces while making a statement. Adaptive Air Ride plus Magnetic Ride Control 4.0 promises a comfortable and composed driving experience without sacrificing handling. The Adaptive Air Ride is capable of raising the E-IQ by one inch and lowering it by two. Low Ride mode allows the Escalade to be driven with the vehicle fully lowered at low speeds.

    2025-cadillac-escalade-iq-sport-014.jpgInside, passengers are treated to a premium cabin featuring a nearly full-width, 55-inch display across the dash, with some space at each end reserved for two of the forty speakers of the available AKG Studio Reference sound system on the available Executive Second Row package.  Luxury 2 and Sport 2 systems feature a thirty-six speaker AKG system, while Luxury 1 and Sport 1 trims have nineteen.

    Cadillac is offering four interior themes with 126 ambient lighting options. Interior trims feature delicate detailing with laser-etched woodwork, and with the available illuminated trim package, the patterns light up at night, offering a unique look and glow.

    The Executive Second Row package includes stowable tray tables, dual wireless phone charging pads, 12.6-inch personal display screens, USB-C and HDMI ports, massaging seats, and headrest speakers.

    An available package adds power open-and-close doors to all four doors, and if enabled, the driver's door will automatically open as the driver approaches with the keyfob. In addition to the standard rear cargo area, a 12 cubic ft. eTrunk is located at the front of the vehicle.

    2025-cadillac-escalade-iq-sport-010.jpgAs Cadillac introduced SuperCruise to the market several years ago as an option in high end trims, but in the E-IQ, it now comes standard.  Additional active safety features include blind zone steering assist, intersection automatic emergency braking, which enables detection of cross traffic, HD Surround Vision, Enhanced automatic parking assist, and front pedestrian and bicyclist braking that works at speeds from 5 mph - 50 mph.

    Pricing is expected to start around $130,000 when it goes on sale in the Fall of 2024.

    2025 CADILLAC ESCALADE IQ PRELIMINARY SPECIFICATIONS

    EFFICIENCY

    Cadillac-estimated range1

    450 miles (724+ km)

    1On a full charge based on development testing and/or analytical projection consistent with SAE J1634 revision 2017 – MCT. Range subject to change prior to production. Actual range may vary based on several factors, including ambient temperature, terrain, battery age and condition, loading, and how you use and maintain your vehicle.

    BATTERY SYSTEM:

    Type:

    Rechargeable energy storage system comprising multiple linked modules

    Battery Chemistry:

    Lithium-ion NCMA cathode, blended graphite anode

    Battery Rated Energy:

    200 kWh

    ELECTRIC DRIVE:

    System:

    2 drive units with 1 motor each

    Motor:

    Permanent magnet, bar wound

    Power1:

    680 hp / 505 kW – Normal Mode
    750 hp / 560 kW – Velocity Max

    Torque1: (lb-ft / Nm):

    615 lb-ft / 834 Nm – Normal Mode
    785 lb-ft / 1064 Nm – Velocity Max

    Final Drive Ratio (:1):

    13.26:1 – front
    11.63:1 – rear

    1Based on GM testing

    CHARGING TIMES1

     

    240V (7.7 kW Including Dual-Level Charge Cord):

    Approximately 14.8 miles of range per hour of charge

    240V2 (19.2 kW AC):

    Approximately 37 miles of range per hour of charge time

    DC Fast Charge (Public):

    Up to 100 miles of range in 10 minutes of charge time

     

    1Actual charge times will vary based on battery condition, output of charger, vehicle settings and outside temperature. See the vehicle's Owner’s Manual for additional limitations.
    2Home charging requires professionally installed 100A dedicated charge station, sold separately.

    CHASSIS & SUSPENSION

    Front and Rear Suspension:

    Short-Long Arm (SLA) suspension with air springs and MagneRide dampers. Balanced ride and handling with premium isolation.

    Steering Type:

    Front: Rack & Pinion Electric Power Steering;
    Rear: Continuously variable actuator up to 10 degrees.

    Turning Circle, Curb-to-Curb (ft. / m):

    39.4 / 12

    Brake Type:

    4-wheel disc with DuraLife™ Rotors

    Brake Rotor Size OD:
    (in. / mm):

    13.98 / 355 (front)
    14.05 / 356.8 (rear)

    Wheels:

    24-inch alloy

    Tires:

    LT275/50R24 

    1Lower-profile tires wear faster. Tire and wheel damage may occur on rough or damaged roads or from surfaces, curbs, debris or obstacles. This damage is not covered by the GM New Vehicle Limited Warranty. For more details, go to my.cadillac.com/learnabout/tires or see your dealer.

    EXTERIOR DIMENSIONS

    Wheelbase (in. / mm):

    136.2 / 3460

    Overall Length (in. / mm):

    224.3 / 5697

    Overall Width (in. / mm):

    94.1 / 2389 (with mirrors)
    85.3 / 2167 (mirrors folded)

    Overall Height (in. / mm):

    76.1 / 1934

    Track Width (in. / mm):

    Front: 68.7 / 1745
    Rear: 68.7 / 1745

    Ground Clearance (in. / mm):

    6.9 / 175

    INTERIOR DIMENSIONS

    Headroom (in. / mm):

    1st row: 43.5 / 1106
    2nd row: 39.9 / 1015
    3rd row: 37.2 / 944

    Legroom (in. / mm):

    1st row: 45.2 / 1148
    2nd row: 41.3 / 1051
    3rd row: 30.1 / 765

    Shoulder Room (in. / mm):

    1st row: 65.4 / 1662
    2nd row: 63.6 / 1615
    3rd row: 56.5 / 1435

    Hip Room (in. / mm):

    1st row: 61.1 / 1551
    2nd row: 60.3 / 1532
    3rd row: 49.4 / 1256

    CAPACITIES   

    EPA Passenger Volume
    (cu. ft. / L):

    1st row: 1841
    2nd row: 1651
    3rd row: 1092

    Cargo Volume1
    (cu. ft. / L):

    119.2 / 3374 (second and third rows folded)
    69.1 / 1958 (third row folded)
    23.7 / 670 (behind third row)

    eTrunk Volume1
    (cu. ft. / L):

    12.2 / 345.4

    Max Trailering Capacity2 
    (lb. / kg):

    8000 / 3628

    1Cargo and load capacity limited by weight and distribution
    2Before you buy a vehicle or use it for trailering, carefully review the Trailering section of the Owner’s Manual. The weight of passengers, cargo, and options or accessories may reduce the amount you can tow.

    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    8 hours ago, David said:

    V12 will never get full approval as it has no redundancy systems. Musk seems to think he can do it all with Camera's and no backups and the Gov will never let him have it his way. 

    Musks way is to gamble your life as long as you play him money, that is what V12 of FSD really is. A computer game to Musk. He has no respect for life or humans, only his only dick and money.

    Musk himself uses V12.  I don't think he would use a product that would kill him.  Also Tesla crash test ratings are best in industry if it does crash.

    And if Tesla's way isn't right, then whose is?  Mercedes is the leader in the clubhouse with a mapped roads level 3 system that works to a max of 40 mph.  That's probably another year to get it to all the states (and European countries outside of Germany) and then another year to get it up to 60-80 mph, another year to expand use cases.  And everyone else tends to run 5-10 years behind the S-class in technology. 

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    10 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    Just in time to be 3 or 4 years late! 

    Not only are they not the first electric truck, they're not the 2nd or 3rd either. 

    They better come out with a banger of a product if you're going to announce first, be 3 or 4 years late and now they're the 4th in the category. Technically, 5th, if you count the GMC Hummer. 

    4 years concept to production is pretty common in the industry.  Also Cybertruck is an all new product with a new manufacturing process, so they had toe work all that out.  Plus it is bulletproof as confirmed today by Elon that they emptied an entire Tommy Gun magazine into the side of one.  And the tri-motor has over 1,000 hp making Ram TRX and the F150 Raptor R look like weak sauce.

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    27 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    4 years concept to production is pretty common in the industry.  Also Cybertruck is an all new product with a new manufacturing process, so they had toe work all that out.  Plus it is bulletproof as confirmed today by Elon that they emptied an entire Tommy Gun magazine into the side of one.  And the tri-motor has over 1,000 hp making Ram TRX and the F150 Raptor R look like weak sauce.

    So just make up any excuse to cover up the fact that he said production was originally supposed to start in 2021 when he announced it in 2019 (having been in "concept" concept before then).

     

    And that 4 years is a lie in this day and age and you know that. Kia's EV9 is going from concept to production in less than 3. The Mach-E was announced 2019 and was on sale the next year so just stop with the endless excuses when even Elon has confessed to the endless delays delaying the Cybertruck. Again, you ignore facts to make up excuses and feelings.

     

    And touting that dumb bulletproof video is just sheer ignorance and fanboy BS. That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Notice they didn't shoot at that once unbreakable glass (that Elon broke in front of the world). Keep drinking that Kool-Aid though.

    Edited by surreal1272
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    12 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    So just make up any excuse to cover up the fact that he said production was originally supposed to start in 2021 when he announced it in 2019 (having been in "concept" concept before then).

     

    And that 4 years is a lie in this day and age and you know that. Kia's EV9 is going from concept to production in less than 3. The Mach-E was announced 2019 and was on sale the next year so just stop with the endless excuses when even Elon has confessed to the endless delays delaying the Cybertruck. Again, you ignore facts to make up excuses and feelings.

     

    And touting that dumb bulletproof video is just sheer ignorance and fanboy BS. That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Notice they didn't shoot at that once unbreakable glass (that Elon broke in front of the world). Keep drinking that Kool-Aid though.

    Kia EV9 concept debuted in November 2021.  Not yet at dealers.  And the Mach-E is bad product built on an ICE platform, they rushed it because Tesla was so fast on the rise.  Model Y outsells the Mach-E like 20-1 worldwide so I wouldn't call the Mach-E a success story, especially since Ford loses $60,000 on each one they sell.

    Also Kia EV6 US sales through Q3 are 14,798, down from 15.7% from last year.  Tesla Model Y US sales are 284,000.   If Kia is so good, why are they getting outscored 284-14?  

    The facts are Tesla is mopping the floor with these OEM's and I don't see how any OEM outside of BMW and Mercedes makes an easy transition to EV's because the EV's are too high priced and too low volume compared to their ICE counterparts.   And even then, I don't think it will be all that easy for Mercedes or BMW, but they are lucky that Tesla isn't coming for them, Tesla is coming for the mass market.

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    10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Kia EV9 concept debuted in November 2021.  Not yet at dealers.  And the Mach-E is bad product built on an ICE platform, they rushed it because Tesla was so fast on the rise.  Model Y outsells the Mach-E like 20-1 worldwide so I wouldn't call the Mach-E a success story, especially since Ford loses $60,000 on each one they sell.

    Also Kia EV6 US sales through Q3 are 14,798, down from 15.7% from last year.  Tesla Model Y US sales are 284,000.   If Kia is so good, why are they getting outscored 284-14?  

    The facts are Tesla is mopping the floor with these OEM's and I don't see how any OEM outside of BMW and Mercedes makes an easy transition to EV's because the EV's are too high priced and too low volume compared to their ICE counterparts.   And even then, I don't think it will be all that easy for Mercedes or BMW, but they are lucky that Tesla isn't coming for them, Tesla is coming for the mass market.

    Like I said, endless excuses and that fact will never change. 

     

    BTW, not one part of what I said about timelines had $h! to do with sales bar mover. aHad no jack squat to with whether Kia is better or not. This was about concept timelines and the FACT IS THAT THE CYBERTRUCK HAS BEEN SLOW TO DEVELOP and that is a FACT backed by Tesla's own CEO, not your pom pom waving fanboy OPINION. Get that yet or do you want to make up more reasons why you are wrong?

     

    Finally, those were just TWO examples of the many vehicles that have hit the floor quicker than the Cybertruck. You can add in literally dozens of others that have been quicker than it but hey, "sales, sales, sales" when you run out of excuses right?

    Edited by surreal1272
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    And remember @smk4565, it has been YOU that has crowed on about the Cybertruck for the last three years, years that were promised a Cybertruck by Elon and his fans the following year, each year. You had ZERO issue with the possibility of quick production and even touted their ability to do so during those three years. Now you are on here making excuses about the repeated delays buy saying that this is "normal" (it is clearly not) and then throwing in some non-related BS about sales. FFS. That is what is wrong with people lately. Can't just admit their error and move the F on. Good luck with that (same goes to anyone here with the same level of stubbornness).

     

     

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    On 10/20/2023 at 9:42 PM, smk4565 said:

    And the Mach-E is bad product built on an ICE platform

     

    2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    Explain this. This is literally the first time I've read this. 

     

    There is nothing to explain as he is lying through his teeth when he says that... 

    He knows that the Mach-E is built on a pure bespoke EV platform.  

    On 10/20/2023 at 9:42 PM, smk4565 said:

    especially since Ford loses $60,000 on each one they sell.

     

    This also a lie...

    However... Tesla's production efficiency is non-existent.  Elon lies a lot.  

    Therefore...

    Tesla's price cuts and Tesla is bleeding money meaning that the measley  $1 250 rebate of the Model 3 and the $2000 rebate of the Model Y are monies that interfere with the Model 3s and Model Ys profits meaning small rebates of vehicles that have sold as much as they have and produced as much as they have and the production lines of Tesla are not up to legacy automobile manufacturer's srandards. 

    Meaning if FoMoCo is losing $60 000 on each Mach-E sold, then Tesla ALSO is losing money on each Model 3 and Model Y sold. ESPECIALLY on rebate. 

    Meaning Tesla cannot sustain rebates...  

    The thing is...Elon started a price war Tesla cant afford.  His mouth is writing checks his ass cant cash...

    But its nice to find faults with GM or Ford or anybody else but hypocritically defend Tesla.

    Sounds like a Toyota argument come to think of it.

    @surreal1272

    Hope your hip surgery went well, buddy, even thought I would have NEVER have thought to paint you as a brand nut jobber! 

     But...it is Toyota you defend, so it makes sense. 

    200w.gif?cid=6c09b9525bxlwgkbtokznu7h62n

    Apple, Toyota and Tesla...

    welcome-to-the-cult-cult.gif

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    7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    Explain this. This is literally the first time I've read this. 

    The Mach-E is built on the GE1 platform which is a heavily reworked Ford C2 platform, which is what underpins the Escape and final generation Ford Focus, Corsair, Bronco Sport, Maverick, Edge, etc.  Probably also why it is a few hundred pounds heavier than the Model Y they were trying to copy.

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    5 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

     

     

    There is nothing to explain as he is lying through his teeth when he says that... 

    He knows that the Mach-E is built on a pure bespoke EV platform.  

     

    This also a lie...

    However... Tesla's production efficiency is non-existent.  Elon lies a lot.  

    Therefore...

    Tesla's price cuts and Tesla is bleeding money meaning that the measley  $1 250 rebate of the Model 3 and the $2000 rebate of the Model Y are monies that interfere with the Model 3s and Model Ys profits meaning small rebates of vehicles that have sold as much as they have and produced as much as they have and the production lines of Tesla are not up to legacy automobile manufacturer's srandards. 

    Meaning if FoMoCo is losing $60 000 on each Mach-E sold, then Tesla ALSO is losing money on each Model 3 and Model Y sold. ESPECIALLY on rebate. 

    Meaning Tesla cannot sustain rebates...  

    The thing is...Elon started a price war Tesla cant afford.  His mouth is writing checks his ass cant cash...

    But its nice to find faults with GM or Ford or anybody else but hypocritically defend Tesla.

    Sounds like a Toyota argument come to think of it.

    @surreal1272

    Hope your hip surgery went well, buddy, even thought I would have NEVER have thought to paint you as a brand nut jobber! 

     But...it is Toyota you defend, so it makes sense. 

    200w.gif?cid=6c09b9525bxlwgkbtokznu7h62n

    Apple, Toyota and Tesla...

    welcome-to-the-cult-cult.gif

    Ford breaks out their EV financials, Ford themselves say their EV's will lose $4.5 billion dollars this year.   (or $1.125 billion per quarter)

    Ford has sold 46,671 EV's through Q3 at a loss of $3.375 Billion, which is actually $72,314 dollars lost per car sold.  

     

    Tesla meanwhile making billions in profits on EVs:

    Screenshot2023-10-25at8_02_16PM.thumb.png.1457004f0aa1498f73703f57135babfe.png

    Screenshot2023-10-25at8_02_28PM.thumb.png.8dafdda4e61d8d39e9b10af99d5ca83d.png

     

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    13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Mach-E is built on the GE1 platform which is a heavily reworked Ford C2 platform

    heavily modified MEANS that it is NOT the C2 platform and hence the NEW designation...

    In FACT...GE1 is an acronym for GLOBAL ELECTRIFIED 1.  

    The GE1 is still a bespoke platform. A DEDICATED EV platform.  Engineered at the same time as the C2 platform to save costs as probably, the GE1 platform FROM the CD2 platform could be reworked and rescaled to accomodate ALL the vehicles from the CD2 platform to become 100% BEVs.  GE2 and GE3 and someforth and so forth... 

    Meaning. When FoMoCo engineered the C2 platform and brought it out in 2018, FoMoCo had it in their engineering plans to heavily modify it to make the GE1 and THAT is how the Mach-E was introduced as fast as it was without ANYBODY knowing how and why Ford had a legit  100% battery electrical CUV to sell in 2020 when FoMoCo hadnt announced anything about a BEV EV...   

    13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

     Probably also why it is a few hundred pounds heavier than the Model Y

     

    Probably because FoMoCo hasnt learned just yet where they can lose weight where it aint necessary.  It is the first try after all.    The Mach-E is OVER engineered and the Mach-E launch videos actually EXPLAIN that the Mach-E is overengineered because Ford doesnt want to phoque things up ESPECIALLY when they have named it a Mustang Mach-E...   

     

    But yeah...its nice to spin things negatively... 

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Ford breaks out their EV financials, Ford themselves say their EV's will lose $4.5 billion dollars this year.   (or $1.125 billion per quarter)

    Ford has sold 46,671 EV's through Q3 at a loss of $3.375 Billion, which is actually $72,314 dollars lost per car sold.  

     

    Tesla meanwhile making billions in profits on EVs:

    Screenshot2023-10-25at8_02_16PM.thumb.png.1457004f0aa1498f73703f57135babfe.png

    Screenshot2023-10-25at8_02_28PM.thumb.png.8dafdda4e61d8d39e9b10af99d5ca83d.png

     

    And yet Ford ALSO said that they would be profitable in selling EVs as soon as MORE models come to fruition...

    As of now, economies of scale aint kicking in...   

    And as it turns out...by the end of next year.

    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/ford-ceo-out-to-prove-wall-street-wrong-on-crazy-high-ev-goal-1.1922468#:~:text=Farley has promised its first,third of Ford's global production.

     

    image.thumb.png.5cdbb17d3b2df4e009d48cdd1572aaae.png

    And if you think Farley is overselling...

    Dont tell me ANY of that UNLESS you acknowledge that Elon Musk ALSO oversells...

    Meaning... you BETTER believe that Tesla is NOT making all that money and that Tesla is NOT all that profitable and Tesla is NOT that huge juggernaut that Elon wants all of us to believe. So if Elon is allowed to oversell, so should Jim Farley be allowed. 

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    42 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Probably because FoMoCo hasnt learned just yet where they can lose weight where it aint necessary.  It is the first try after all.    The Mach-E is OVER engineered and the Mach-E launch videos actually EXPLAIN that the Mach-E is overengineered because Ford doesnt want to phoque things up ESPECIALLY when they have named it a Mustang Mach-E...   

     

    But yeah...its nice to spin things negatively... 

     

    All that over engineering to get a vehicle that is heavier, slower, more expensive and has less range than their closest rival.  And that gets outsold 10-1 by their key rival in just the USA.   Globally it is like 20 to 1.  

    Ford knows how to do pickups and commercial vehicles, and I give them credit on the Bronco and Bronco Sport, they built desirable products there and the Maverick is a big win because small trucks and trucks under $30,000 don't exist anymore and with high interest rates and inflation it was the right product at the right time.  But outside of that, they don't have a lot going for them.

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    1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

    All that over engineering to get a vehicle that is heavier, slower, more expensive and has less range than their closest rival.

    Compared to the Model Y?

    The Mach-E is very comparable to the Model Y is EVERY metric.

    The Model Y is Tesla's 5th attempt at an EV.

    1. Roadster 1.0

    2. Model S

    3. Model X

    4. Model 3 

    5. Model Y

     The Mach - E is Ford's 1st attempt.

    The Mach-E is quite the accomplishment and NOT how you want to present it.  

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    18 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Hope your hip surgery went well, buddy, even thought I would have NEVER have thought to paint you as a brand nut jobber! 

     But...it is Toyota you defend, so it makes sense.

    And that is why you fail. I am not a “brand nut jobber”. That’s just you sensationalizing as always because of your clear bias AGAINST some brands. You confuse my explanations of Toyota with fandom and that’s why I am quite honestly tired of the endless horse$h! you keep peddling over it. Get over it already and don’t drop my name like that when you clearly have had no clue WTF you are about. It’s that simple. 
     

    (I wasn’t going to respond but that “brand nut jobber” BS was not going to stand when I know it’s a 100% lie)

     

    Quite frankly, this is where you stand with me and that’s the end of it.

     

    IMG_6486.webp

    Edited by surreal1272
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    13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Ford breaks out their EV financials, Ford themselves say their EV's will lose $4.5 billion dollars this year.   (or $1.125 billion per quarter)

    Ford has sold 46,671 EV's through Q3 at a loss of $3.375 Billion, which is actually $72,314 dollars lost per car sold.  

    They're also building 2 or 3 manufacturing plants for EVs and/or battery production. They'll likely be in the red for awhile until all of that is finished and they can get production out of those. That's the cost of doing business. 

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    15 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Compared to the Model Y?

    The Mach-E is very comparable to the Model Y is EVERY metric.

    The Model Y is Tesla's 5th attempt at an EV.

    1. Roadster 1.0

    2. Model S

    3. Model X

    4. Model 3 

    5. Model Y

     The Mach - E is Ford's 1st attempt.

    The Mach-E is quite the accomplishment and NOT how you want to present it.  

    Technically Ford made an Electric Focus... because California.

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    17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Ford breaks out their EV financials, Ford themselves say their EV's will lose $4.5 billion dollars this year.   (or $1.125 billion per quarter)

    Ford has sold 46,671 EV's through Q3 at a loss of $3.375 Billion, which is actually $72,314 dollars lost per car sold.  

     

    Tesla meanwhile making billions in profits on EVs:

    Screenshot2023-10-25at8_02_16PM.thumb.png.1457004f0aa1498f73703f57135babfe.png

    Screenshot2023-10-25at8_02_28PM.thumb.png.8dafdda4e61d8d39e9b10af99d5ca83d.png

     

    Nice, you continue to show blind faith to Narcissistic Musk. Tesla lost 100,000's of thousands of dollars per EV in the early days due to all the R&D and especially the warranty claims they had. This is nothing new as your $76K figure is way off as you cannot push everything onto each EV when there are costs not associated with the building of EVs, but due to many other costs in building any business.

    I am sure your basing it on this story from a company that has made it very clear that EVs are the devil.

    Ford Loses Nearly $60,000 for Every Electric Vehicle Sold - TheStreet

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    4 hours ago, David said:

    Nice, you continue to show blind faith to Narcissistic Musk. Tesla lost 100,000's of thousands of dollars per EV in the early days due to all the R&D and especially the warranty claims they had. This is nothing new as your $76K figure is way off as you cannot push everything onto each EV when there are costs not associated with the building of EVs, but due to many other costs in building any business.

    I am sure your basing it on this story from a company that has made it very clear that EVs are the devil.

    Ford Loses Nearly $60,000 for Every Electric Vehicle Sold - TheStreet

    Ford lost $1.33 Billion on EV's in Q3.  But it isn't just the bleeding money, it is that F150 Lightning demand is basically gone, and the Mach-E has very little demand.  The dealer near me has 19 of them, all with customer cash offers from Ford, why the dealer isn't throwing in $5k off on top of that I don't know.  

    And I don't have any faith or loyalty to Musk, but it is pretty clear that Tesla is highly profitable and with quickly rising sales volume, while no one else can seem to figure out EV's.  And you have GM delaying the Equinox EV to next year some time, the Silverado and Sierra were pushed back a year, Mercedes dealers complaining about how the EV's are as aspirational or desirable as the gas cars and they are too expensive, Hyundai/Kia dealers have EV's piled up on the lots.  

    The same thing is true at all these OEM's, they make EV's that don't look like the rest of the brand, or aren't eye catching enough, then they cost 25-50% more than the similarly sized ICE car on the same lot, and they are heavy, with less range and performance than a Tesla.  

    Cadillac Escalade starts at $82,000, the Escalade EV is $130,000.  These Escalade EV's will sit around on dealer lots also, unless they only make about 2,000 of them a year.  All these OEM's need to suck cost out of these EV's but seem clueless on how to do it.

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    9 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    And that is why you fail. I am not a “brand nut jobber”. That’s just you sensationalizing as always because of your clear bias AGAINST some brands. You confuse my explanations of Toyota with fandom and that’s why I am quite honestly tired of the endless horse$h! you keep peddling over it. Get over it already and don’t drop my name like that when you clearly have had no clue WTF you are about. It’s that simple. 
     

    (I wasn’t going to respond but that “brand nut jobber” BS was not going to stand when I know it’s a 100% lie)

     

    Quite frankly, this is where you stand with me and that’s the end of it.

     

    IMG_6486.webp

     LOL

    you proved the article right.  By you saying the article was sensationalist journalism you are proving their sensationalist view of what and how people ignore Toyota's problems.

    Thanx for the laugh.

    PS:

    Love that middle finger photo of the man in black.

    Ive used it a couple of times myself.   Thanx for the regifting. 

     

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    6 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    Technically Ford made an Electric Focus... because California.

    True true.

    true-shorty.gif

     

    Disclaimer: The image expressed in this gif are only for comedic effect and property of some sort of Hollywood movie.  Any image and actions presented in that gif may or may NOT be condoned by myself.   

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    34 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

     LOL

    you proved the article right.  By you saying the article was sensationalist journalism you are proving their sensationalist view of what and how people ignore Toyota's problems.

    Thanx for the laugh.

    PS:

    Love that middle finger photo of the man in black.

    Ive used it a couple of times myself.   Thanx for the regifting. 

     

    I see why you had the summer you did. Because you won’t admit to anything that calls you out nor do accept a very simple explanation of why you were and are still wrong about me. You clearly read what you wanted to read because it’s easier for you to be confrontational than to just admit that you don’t know $h! about me. My sensationalism reference is about you, not about the article (which was, in fact, and opinion piece sprinkled with a few facts). Get that through your thick skull before making yet another ignorant assumption about me.
     

    Since you want to make assumptions though, I have some for you. You talk constantly about being the way you are because being Greek, or being French Canadian, or being whatever other excuse you like to make for what you actually are, which is just being a grade A asshole. Has not one thing to do with your culture or where you live. You make the choice to be this way. Be an asshole on your own time but leave me and my name out of it and I will do the same because you are just not worth the time it took to even type this. 

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    Just now, surreal1272 said:

    I see why you had the summer you did. Because you won’t admit to anything that calls you out nor do accept a very simple explanation of why you were and are still wrong about me. You clearly read what you wanted to read because it’s easier for you to be confrontational than to just admit that you don’t know $h! about me. My sensationalism reference is about you, not about the article (which was, in fact, and opinion piece sprinkled with a few facts). Get that through your thick skull before making yet another ignorant assumption about me.
     

    Since you want to make assumptions though, I have some for you. You talk constantly about being the way you are because being Greek, or being French Canadian, or being whatever other excuse you like to make for what you actually are, which is just being a grade A asshole. Has not one thing to do with your culture or where you live. You make the choice to be this way. Be an asshole on your own time but leave me and my name out of it and I will do the same because you are just not worth the time it took to even type this. 

     

    james-kirk-apple.gif

     

     

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    https://insideevs.com/news/692967/gm-ditches-goal-building-400000-evs-north-america-through-mid-2024/

     

    Stories about EVs not selling in the US market. 

    UAW strikes

    GM is truly re-adjusting their sales targets.

     

    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/25/gm-honda-scrap-plans-to-co-develop-affordable-sub-30000-evs.html

     

    GM and Honda partnership TO co-develop affordable EVs has dissolved.

     

    But...the EV sales thing from Tesla is also following GM's path.

     

    https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-joins-gm-ford-slowing-ev-factory-ramp-demand-fears-spread-2023-10-19/

     

    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/tesla-s-slowing-growth-is-sending-a-warning-to-all-ev-makers-1.1987490

     

    The gossip in town is that Elon "lost" 28 billion dollars.   If he continues to make Tesla price cut because Tesla continues to lose markert share amd Elon will continue to "lose" billions.  But that doesnt matter.     It seems that all is not well in EV land.    Despite government laws forcing the bans of gas power, if now until then, Americans arent going to buy EVs,  it does not matter of Mary Barra saying that 30 000-40 000 dollars EVs are not profitable, GM will bleed too much money to stay afloat.  But with that broad stroke of reality, Tesla ALSO loses money on THAT price range EVs but at least GM SELLS gas powered cars to have cash flow.  Tesla does not have gas power on their roster.   Tesla bleeds money is what Im saying. THIS time around, I dont think ANYBODY will subsidize Tesla losing billions like they done for a decade 2 or 3 years prior... 

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    46 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    https://insideevs.com/news/692967/gm-ditches-goal-building-400000-evs-north-america-through-mid-2024/

     

    The gossip in town is that Elon "lost" 28 billion dollars.   If he continues to make Tesla price cut because Tesla continues to lose markert share amd Elon will continue to "lose" billions.  But that doesnt matter.     It seems that all is not well in EV land.    Despite government laws forcing the bans of gas power, if now until then, Americans arent going to buy EVs,  it does not matter of Mary Barra saying that 30 000-40 000 dollars EVs are not profitable, GM will bleed too much money to stay afloat.  But with that broad stroke of reality, Tesla ALSO loses money on THAT price range EVs but at least GM SELLS gas powered cars to have cash flow.  Tesla does not have gas power on their roster.   Tesla bleeds money is what Im saying. THIS time around, I dont think ANYBODY will subsidize Tesla losing billions like they done for a decade 2 or 3 years prior... 

    Tesla isn't losing money, they have made $7.1 billion dollars of net income so far this year, so they should end the year with about a $9 billion profit if Q4 looks like Q3, and it could be a $10 billion profit if they have a good quarter.  They don't need subsidized, they are easily making money, and they have a growing product line to expand revenue.  And energy generation and distribution is a small % of their business, but it is high margin and they are about to double or triple that part of the business with all these other OEM's putting Tesla charging plugs on their cars.

    Elon lost money since the stock price dropped, but I don't think Elon cares about losing money, he wasted $40 billion on X for no reason, he could have bought GM for $39 billion at today's price if he wanted to flush money away.  This is why Tesla is dangerous. They are profitable at about $5k per car now, Elon might not care if they cut prices another $5k per car and make $0 on the car, if he can make the money on charging and selling FSD software that has huge margins.  Basically give away a free iPhone to make money on subscriptions and apps.  The other companies can't do that, or afford to get into a price war with him.

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    8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The other companies can't do that, or afford to get into a price war with him.


    Yes they can.

    Especially the legacy OEMs.

    They make gas powered cars. Tesla doesnt.

    Tesla's vehicle prices arent profitable between 30 000 and 40 000 also.  EV sales are pointing to be stale.  Tesla wont make it to 2035...  

    Tesla does not have all that money...

     

    If they did have all that money and profit legit, without all the smoke and mirrors with polution credits and all that garbage, they'de slash more money off the 3 and Y to get to that 30 000 dollar threshold.   To stop the market erosion and to actually put a nail in the coffin of their competitors.  

    They dont do because Tesla LOSES money at those price points.  Investors wont support Tesla losing billions again... 

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    10 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:


    Yes they can.

    Especially the legacy OEMs.

    They make gas powered cars. Tesla doesnt.

    Tesla's vehicle prices arent profitable between 30 000 and 40 000 also.  EV sales are pointing to be stale.  Tesla wont make it to 2035...  

    Tesla does not have all that money...

     

    If they did have all that money and profit legit, without all the smoke and mirrors with polution credits and all that garbage, they'de slash more money off the 3 and Y to get to that 30 000 dollar threshold.   To stop the market erosion and to actually put a nail in the coffin of their competitors.  

    They dont do because Tesla LOSES money at those price points.  Investors wont support Tesla losing billions again... 

     

    They're making money. I'm not sure why you think they're losing money on vehicles but they've been profitable for the last few years.

    Look over pages 4-6.

    https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000162828023034847/tsla-20230930.htm#ib5ff2de9b5b0458894a3412674c85416_16

     

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    16 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    All these OEM's need to suck cost out of these EV's but seem clueless on how to do it.

    I agree they need to do that but I disagree that they don't know how. They know they need the demand and mass production to get there. You can't get costs down until you're selling hundreds of thousands a year or more. 

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    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    I agree they need to do that but I disagree that they don't know how. They know they need the demand and mass production to get there. You can't get costs down until you're selling hundreds of thousands a year or more. 

    Maybe they know how, but are unable.  The Escalade EV is 50% more than the ICE version, the Blazer EV is 50% more than the ICE version.  You can’t raise prices 50% and not expect sales to tank.  They have to get the cost out first to get the volume they need.  Kind of a catch 22.

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    @smk4565 @ccap41 Tesla has been well covered about loosing money even in 2020 and them selling clean air credits since they do not produce ICE auto's is how they have made money as they have not made money on EVs until the last couple of years.

    Tesla Loses Money On Every Single Car: Here's Where The Profit Hides (motorbiscuit.com)

    Even in 2021 Tesla DID NOT really make money as it was the Automotive Regulatory Credits that saved their ass. 2022 and 2023 are the first years they are actually making money but even then the ARC's are still an important sales point especially to Stellantis and adds a noticeable profit to their bottom line.

    Even CNN covered this in 2021.

    Tesla's dirty little secret: Its net profit doesn't come from selling cars | CNN Business

    Tesla lost hand over fist money from 2003 when it started till end of 2021. 2010 is when it did their IPO and so while Tesla will not say how much money lost each year from 2003 to 2010, we do have their regulatory filings from the IPO moving forward to really show their profit and loss.

    Tesla Gross Profit 2010-2023 | TSLA | MacroTrends

    image.png

    The green operating income is due totally from the ARC credit sales to other auto companies especially Dodge/RAM/JEEP

    Net Income shows a clear picture of how much money Tesla lost before becoming profitable.

    image.png

    So I am only human and I could have mis-read a quarter report, but I wanted to know just how much money Tesla has lost till they started turning a profit that did not rely on the ARC credits which happened in Q2 of 2022.

    From the start of 2010 to the end of Q1 2022 Tesla has lost a total of $28.605 billion dollars.

    From Q2 2022 to Q3 2023 Tesla has generated $34.072 billions dollars.

    The financial reports show that Tesla has peaked in end of Q4 2022 @ $5.777 billion for the 4th quarter and since then we have Q1 2023 $ 4.511 Billion, Q2 2023 $4.533 Billion, Q3 2023 $4.178 Billion.

    I did not take out the on average of half a billion dollars per quarter for ARC sales that Tesla still makes but one can easily see that the profits then barely hit $4 billion per quarter.

    Based on this data one could say that Tesla's prime days are over and we will continue to see declines in profits even if sales continue to go up since they are cutting prices to drive sales which always affects profits and is a reason why their stock is tanking in price since they announced their dismal Q3 financials.

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    13 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:


    Yes they can.

    Especially the legacy OEMs.

    They make gas powered cars. Tesla doesnt.

     

    They make gas powered cars now, they won’t be in 10 years.  Also the only companies making more profit per car than Tesla are BMW and Mercedes-Benz.  The car manufacturing business has relatively low margins.

     

    Hyundai/Kia for example make about $700 profit per car.  As that ICE business shrinks, not sure how many EV losses that is going to fund.  And they just cut Ioniq 6 by $4,000 to line up closer to the Model 3.

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    5 minutes ago, David said:

    @smk4565 @ccap41 Tesla has been well covered about loosing money even in 2020 and them selling clean air credits since they do not produce ICE auto's is how they have made money as they have not made money on EVs until the last couple of years.

    Tesla Loses Money On Every Single Car: Here's Where The Profit Hides (motorbiscuit.com)

    Even in 2021 Tesla DID NOT really make money as it was the Automotive Regulatory Credits that saved their ass. 2022 and 2023 are the first years they are actually making money but even then the ARC's are still an important sales point especially to Stellantis and adds a noticeable profit to their bottom line.

    Even CNN covered this in 2021.

    Tesla's dirty little secret: Its net profit doesn't come from selling cars | CNN Business

    Tesla lost hand over fist money from 2003 when it started till end of 2021. 2010 is when it did their IPO and so while Tesla will not say how much money lost each year from 2003 to 2010, we do have their regulatory filings from the IPO moving forward to really show their profit and loss.

    Tesla Gross Profit 2010-2023 | TSLA | MacroTrends

    image.png

    The green operating income is due totally from the ARC credit sales to other auto companies especially Dodge/RAM/JEEP

    Net Income shows a clear picture of how much money Tesla lost before becoming profitable.

    image.png

    So I am only human and I could have mis-read a quarter report, but I wanted to know just how much money Tesla has lost till they started turning a profit that did not rely on the ARC credits which happened in Q2 of 2022.

    From the start of 2010 to the end of Q1 2022 Tesla has lost a total of $28.605 billion dollars.

    From Q2 2022 to Q3 2023 Tesla has generated $34.072 billions dollars.

    The financial reports show that Tesla has peaked in end of Q4 2022 @ $5.777 billion for the 4th quarter and since then we have Q1 2023 $ 4.511 Billion, Q2 2023 $4.533 Billion, Q3 2023 $4.178 Billion.

    I did not take out the on average of half a billion dollars per quarter for ARC sales that Tesla still makes but one can easily see that the profits then barely hit $4 billion per quarter.

    Based on this data one could say that Tesla's prime days are over and we will continue to see declines in profits even if sales continue to go up since they are cutting prices to drive sales which always affects profits and is a reason why their stock is tanking in price since they announced their dismal Q3 financials.

    This is probably the type of thinking that occurs at GM, Ford, Stellantis and Toyota.  They think Tesla isn’t a threat so don’t worry about them.  They are all in for a rude awakening.  

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    5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Maybe they know how, but are unable.  The Escalade EV is 50% more than the ICE version, the Blazer EV is 50% more than the ICE version.  You can’t raise prices 50% and not expect sales to tank.  They have to get the cost out first to get the volume they need.  Kind of a catch 22.

    Tesla never got the cost out at first, they made sure to recover as much R&D as they could. Startup costs are always high and has been high as Ford & GM even Hyundai/Kia/Genesis drove from nothing in a few years to what they have today, a far faster ramp up time that does require money compared to the decade plus ramp up Tesla did before as a publicly traded company they started to pay more attention to the cost of production.

    Let's also stop your LIES on costs, the costs are NOT 50% higher.

    Current ICE RS model off their own online build

    image.png

    Off their Blazer EV info page as it is not in the builder yet.

    image.png

    If we are to go with your HYPERBOL then the Blazer EV RS would be starting at $80K if we go off ICE MSRP or if we were to go off their current posted MSRP for an EV it should be $90K to start.

    This does not take into account the huge difference between the ICE and EV in HP, Torque, Interior standard items based on the Chevrolet web pages.

    5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    This is probably the type of thinking that occurs at GM, Ford, Stellantis and Toyota.  They think Tesla isn’t a threat so don’t worry about them.  They are all in for a rude awakening.  

    Some companies I would agree with you that they are a horse with blinders on about Tesla, Ford, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Genesis it is very clear they do see Tesla as a threat and unlike Tesla that took decades to ramp up battery production as one example, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Tesla are ramping up production far faster than Ford has done and especially Tesla. They will be able to use economy of scale to drive down costs.

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    13 minutes ago, David said:

    Even in 2021 Tesla DID NOT really make money as it was the Automotive Regulatory Credits that saved their ass. 2022 and 2023 are the first years they are actually making money but even then the ARC's are still an important sales point especially to Stellantis and adds a noticeable profit to their bottom line.

    I take it you haven't bothered to look at their financial statements. Take away the credits and they were 100% profitable in 2021 still. 

    Prior to that, no. They were using those credits to stay afloat and it worked. Which, is basically what I said, "they've been profitable for the last few years."

    image.png.9dacb28204a0b2312991c020959c1045.png

    image.png.f2f6e1306e9774da6bbe40cd3be015b0.png

    https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000095017022000796/tsla-20211231.htm#item_8_financial_statememts_supplementar

     

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    12 minutes ago, David said:

    Let's also stop your LIES on costs, the costs are NOT 50% higher.

    It's actually over 50% on the Blazer.

    The ICE Blazer starts at 35k and the EV Blazer starts at 56k. They've already axed the FWD 1LT model (44k) 

    As of RIGHT NOW, it costs the consumer more then 50% more to go from the cheapest ICE Blazer to the cheapest EV Blazer. 

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    10 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    I take it you haven't bothered to look at their financial statements. Take away the credits and they were 100% profitable in 2021 still. 

    Prior to that, no. They were using those credits to stay afloat and it worked. Which, is basically what I said, "they've been profitable for the last few years."

    image.png.9dacb28204a0b2312991c020959c1045.png

    image.png.f2f6e1306e9774da6bbe40cd3be015b0.png

    https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000095017022000796/tsla-20211231.htm#item_8_financial_statememts_supplementar

     

    I took the time to add up all the quarters, I did look at all the financials and yes the last few years were profitable, but I did this fast so if messing up on 2021 is all that I missed then my bad, but over all the counter point to SMK BS is that Tesla has BLEED money for over a decade before making a profit and here we have Legacy auto companies that have done what Tesla took 2 decades to do in a couple of years, so yes losses are going to be high at the start for anyone.

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    41 minutes ago, David said:

    I took the time to add up all the quarters, I did look at all the financials and yes the last few years were profitable, but I did this fast so if messing up on 2021 is all that I missed then my bad, but over all the counter point to SMK BS is that Tesla has BLEED money for over a decade before making a profit and here we have Legacy auto companies that have done what Tesla took 2 decades to do in a couple of years, so yes losses are going to be high at the start for anyone.

    I don't know why you added anything up. What I showed you was the 2021 Q4 10-k. It was the totals for the years in the snippets, 2019-2021. It wasn't just a Q4 report, it was for the entire year. 

    I don't know what numbers you're getting showing losses but if you subtract the ARC from the bottom line, they're still profitable. The ARCs were not keeping them afloat in 2021.  

    image.png.f562995656aca7f9a723942975407bc4.png

    image.png.c5a409d171f24a41da8c4b6cab93cc28.png

    I'm also not exactly sure how you can facepalm data directly off of the SEC's website. There is zero bias in that data. 

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    4 hours ago, David said:

    Tesla never got the cost out at first, they made sure to recover as much R&D as they could. Startup costs are always high and has been high as Ford & GM even Hyundai/Kia/Genesis drove from nothing in a few years to what they have today, a far faster ramp up time that does require money compared to the decade plus ramp up Tesla did before as a publicly traded company they started to pay more attention to the cost of production.

    Let's also stop your LIES on costs, the costs are NOT 50% higher.

    Current ICE RS model off their own online build

    image.png

    Off their Blazer EV info page as it is not in the builder yet.

    image.png

    If we are to go with your HYPERBOL then the Blazer EV RS would be starting at $80K if we go off ICE MSRP or if we were to go off their current posted MSRP for an EV it should be $90K to start.

    This does not take into account the huge difference between the ICE and EV in HP, Torque, Interior standard items based on the Chevrolet web pages.

    Some companies I would agree with you that they are a horse with blinders on about Tesla, Ford, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Genesis it is very clear they do see Tesla as a threat and unlike Tesla that took decades to ramp up battery production as one example, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Tesla are ramping up production far faster than Ford has done and especially Tesla. They will be able to use economy of scale to drive down costs.

    Blazer 2LT gas awd is $39,495 and a Blazer EV 2LT awd is $56,715.  So I guess it is more like a 40% increase.  
     

    And of course Tesla had it hard at first they had to start from scratch, buy a factory, etc.  Legacy auto already has factories and workers and tooling and paint booths, distribution network, etc.  

    And Ford just announced today they lost $36,000 on every EV sold in Q3 and will be cutting Mach-E production.  Hard to get economies of scale when you cut production.  

    4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    I take it you haven't bothered to look at their financial statements. Take away the credits and they were 100% profitable in 2021 still. 

    Prior to that, no. They were using those credits to stay afloat and it worked. Which, is basically what I said, "they've been profitable for the last few years."

    image.png.9dacb28204a0b2312991c020959c1045.png

    image.png.f2f6e1306e9774da6bbe40cd3be015b0.png

    https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000095017022000796/tsla-20211231.htm#item_8_financial_statememts_supplementar

     

    And they are going to keep getting credits because Ford and GM are cutting EV production and delaying EV’s and Stellantis nowhere to be found at a time when the CAFE numbers are going up.  

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    9 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    They're making money. I'm not sure why you think they're losing money on vehicles but they've been profitable for the last few years.

    Look over pages 4-6.

    https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000162828023034847/tsla-20230930.htm#ib5ff2de9b5b0458894a3412674c85416_16

     

     

    Just going by whatever I see and hear. Picking and choosing  (you could call it cherry picking if you'de like)  the  information I hold regarding EV production not only for Tesla, but for everybody else as well.

    Mining for batteries is the SAME cost for EVERYBODY.

    Battery production costs might and DOES differ, but BIIIIIG manufacturers such as GM will always find a way to reduce costs since they have BIGGER connections and suppliers as compared to Tesla DESPITE Tesla having a jump on battery prodution factories.   GM's SUPERIOR know-how in manufacturing compared to Tesla offsets any monies that Tesla has an advantage over GM's battery production.  Tesla...despite what Munroe wants to sell us on...STILL wastes a lot of time and energy and useless production techniques for its EVs.   GM has refined theirs over their 120 years of history...

    https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-says-cybertruck-faces-enormous-production-challenges-tesla-2023-10

    "We dug our own grave with the Cybertruck," Musk said.

    It's "one of those special products that comes along only once in a long while. And special products that come along once in a long while are just incredibly difficult to bring to market to reach volume, to be prosperous," he added.

     

    Yeah...I know this is about the Cybertruck...

    But...its funny how Elon and Sandy Munroe talk a BIIIIIIIG GAME about scaleability from top to bottom, but...the Model S and Model X are on one platform.  The Model S had teething problems in the beginning, Im not so sure of those were fixed and the amount of Model S-esses being sold, the over-cost production run on the Model S simply doesnt show on how in-effecient it is to produce it.   THAT was WORSE on the Model X with the gullwing doors.  Im not so sure Elon fixed the over complicated production of them but with the small amounts they sell, the ineffeciencies simply dont show up.

    The MEAT of the losing mony comes with the Model 3 and Y.

    Again, on DIFFERENT platforms than the Model S and X.  NO scaleability from top to bottom as Sandy Munroe LOVED to wax poetic on how Tesla does manufacturing.   4 models but just a pair of platforms.  And the Model 3 and Model Y havent sold as much to offset ALL the shytty production faults that the Model 3 and Y had in the beginning.   I DO know that Elon fixed this issue with the Model 3 factory in China and he was supposed to fix the American plants. 

     Did he?

    If he did, millions were spent.  Millions that were NOT spoken for...   If he didnt, the production costs must be through the phoquing roof with the amounts of Model 3s and Ys they sell...     The amounts they sell, if fixed, maybe just about NOW that the renovations are paying themsleves off... 

    The Cybertruck:

    Yet ANOTHER platform. And straigh from the horses mouth, that the Cybertruck is a production hell vehicle.  Meaning Elon's production gurus didnt learn a DAMNED thing on how to produce an EV to make profit with.  And dont forget, the Cybertruck is yet on another platform.  NO scaleability from top to bottom...   

    GM's Ulitium platform and ALL of their EVs are an offshoot of one another... 

    From the GARGATUAN Hummer.  Which the Cybertruck comes within with a few pounds of the Hummer.  To the 350 000 dollar Celestiq to the supposed 30 000 dollar Equinox to everything in between...

    If Mary Barra says that as of now, $30 000- $40 000 GM EVs are not profitable, but will be when more battery factories come online (Tesla produces MORE than GM now)  and when EV production ramps up and GM produces 1 million.   

    Well...Tesla produces 1 million EVs, but Tesla does NOT offer a 30 000 dollar EV and REFUSES to offer the Model 3 at that 30 000 dollar threshold and Tesla's slashed prices and profits from Tesla has plummeted quite a lot.   

    And THAT is how I cherry pick my opinion on why Tesla may ALSO lose money on EVs costing 30 000 dollars.  Maybe Tesla does not lose @ 40 thousand.    But Tesla DEFINETELY loses @ 30.  SAME as everybody else...   

     

     

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    6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    They make gas powered cars now, they won’t be in 10 years.

     

    You dont get it.   

    EVs in the US are NOT selling right about now.  Tesla is trying to keep market share.  Tesla is slashing prices.  Tesla's market share will CONTINUE to erode.   Tesla if it continues to slash prices, Tesla's profits go down...   

    Tesla wont have enough cash to engineer  2nd gens of their S-3-X-Y   lineup and NOBODY will bankroll them any money. 

    Tesla NEEDS 2nd generations...when everybody else has NEWER EVs...   DESPITE people NOT buying EVs at an enourmous rate.   And keep that in mind, EVs are not selling.  Tesla's economies of scale falls even further not ONLY because of competition eroding their market share but ALSO, EVs are NOT selling in high demand.  Tesla or otherwise.   Right now.  At this 3rd quarter as I have read. 

    If THIS trend continues, GM has gasoline powered cars to help them ride the transition of havong cash flow.  If Americans REFUSE to buy EVs up UNTIL the 11th hour as they say, GM HAS ICE vehicles to HELP them with the CASH flow...

    Tesla's cash flow will be low...  Like I said, NOBODY will allow Tesla to lose BILLIONS like Tesla done the first decade of 12 or 13 year of their existence.   If this trend continues up until 2035,  Tesla WONT make it...  

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    31 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

     

    You dont get it.   

    EVs in the US are NOT selling right about now.  Tesla is trying to keep market share.  Tesla is slashing prices.  Tesla's market share will CONTINUE to erode.   Tesla if it continues to slash prices, Tesla's profits go down...   

    Tesla wont have enough cash to engineer  2nd gens of their S-3-X-Y   lineup and NOBODY will bankroll them any money. 

    Tesla NEEDS 2nd generations...when everybody else has NEWER EVs...   DESPITE people NOT buying EVs at an enourmous rate.   And keep that in mind, EVs are not selling.  Tesla's economies of scale falls even further not ONLY because of competition eroding their market share but ALSO, EVs are NOT selling in high demand.  Tesla or otherwise.   Right now.  At this 3rd quarter as I have read. 

    If THIS trend continues, GM has gasoline powered cars to help them ride the transition of havong cash flow.  If Americans REFUSE to buy EVs up UNTIL the 11th hour as they say, GM HAS ICE vehicles to HELP them with the CASH flow...

    Tesla's cash flow will be low...  Like I said, NOBODY will allow Tesla to lose BILLIONS like Tesla done the first decade of 12 or 13 year of their existence.   If this trend continues up until 2035,  Tesla WONT make it...  

    Tesla deliveries are up 45% this year.  No other car company has 45% growth.  It is a myth that EV’s don’t sell, everyone else’s EV’s aren’t selling.  
     

    And if for some reason Tesla got in trouble, they would get a government bailout like GM and Chrysler did.

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    28 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Tesla deliveries are up 45% this year.  No other car company has 45% growth.  It is a myth that EV’s don’t sell, everyone else’s EV’s aren’t selling.  

    If Tesla's EV are selling, so is everybody elses.  And hence Tesla's market share eroding... 

    But THAT is not the narrative. 

    If EV sales are (or they are going to be) stagnant, THAT includes Teslas.  And THAT would be the narrative for Oct. 2023 and going forward.   Im not cherrypicking.  Im reading what the media is telling me.  

    But Mary Barra is telling me that and so is Elon.

     

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-gm-and-even-tesla-are-warning-about-the-ev-market-194905657.html

    "We are also moderating the acceleration of EV production in North America to protect our pricing, adjust to slower near-term growth in demand, and implement engineering efficiency and other improvements that will make our vehicles less expensive to produce, and more profitable," CEO Mary Barra said in her Q3 shareholder letter. GM, in pushing back its EV truck expansion earlier this month, noted “evolving EV demand” as the main reason why it was slowing its EV truck volumes.

    Even Tesla (TSLA) CEO Elon Musk, perhaps the biggest EV evangelist in the industry, poured cold water on the EV market and general economic landscape. Musk noted on Tesla’s conference call last Wednesday that the company was delaying construction of its upcoming Gigafactory in Mexico due to concerns about global economic conditions stemming from rising interest rates that make financing cars more expensive for consumers, thus crimping demand.

    “I’m worried about the high interest rate environment we’re in,” Musk said, adding, “I just can’t emphasize enough how important cost is. … We have to make our products more affordable so people can buy [them].”

     

    https://gvwire.com/2023/10/27/gm-and-tesla-ceos-voice-concerns-over-ev-market/

     

    GM’s CEO, Mary Barra, who has been a strong advocate for EVs, announced during the company’s Q3 earnings call that GM is stepping back from its goal to produce 100,000 EVs in the second half of this year and another 400,000 by the first half of 2024. The company did not provide a new timeline for achieving these targets.

    Tesla’s Elon Musk also warned of potential economic issues that could dampen vehicle demand, even for the leading EV manufacturer. Mercedes-Benz, which has had to offer significant discounts on its EVs to boost sales, described the EV market as “brutal.”

    Most EVs are currently selling below their sticker price, and manufacturers are offering incentives of nearly 10% to encourage sales. However, these strategies are not proving effective, as EVs are taking longer to sell than their gasoline counterparts due to concerns over cost, infrastructure, and lifestyle changes.

    Ford was the first to adjust its EV strategy, extending its deadline to reach annual EV production of 600,000 by a year and abandoning its 2026 target to build 2 million EVs. Honda also scrapped plans to co-develop affordable EVs with GM, citing the unpredictable EV market.

     

    28 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    And if for some reason Tesla got in trouble, they would get a government bailout like GM and Chrysler did.

     

    NOT this time around.  Investors will NOT help.  

    The government?

    Tesla is NOT too big to fail like GM or Chrysler was.   

    HOWEVER...Tesla WILL stay alive though.  They WILL exist.  Just not producing vehicles.  They will exist  providing  supercharger stations and selling EV motors and EV software programs to OEMs... 

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    If Tesla's EV are selling, so is everybody elses.  And hence Tesla's market share eroding... 

    But THAT is not the narrative. 

    If EV sales are (or they are going to be) stagnant, THAT includes Teslas.  And THAT would be the narrative for Oct. 2023 and going forward.   Im not cherrypicking.  Im reading what the media is telling me.  

    But Mary Barra is telling me that and so is Elon.

     

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-gm-and-even-tesla-are-warning-about-the-ev-market-194905657.html

    "We are also moderating the acceleration of EV production in North America to protect our pricing, adjust to slower near-term growth in demand, and implement engineering efficiency and other improvements that will make our vehicles less expensive to produce, and more profitable," CEO Mary Barra said in her Q3 shareholder letter. GM, in pushing back its EV truck expansion earlier this month, noted “evolving EV demand” as the main reason why it was slowing its EV truck volumes.

    Even Tesla (TSLA) CEO Elon Musk, perhaps the biggest EV evangelist in the industry, poured cold water on the EV market and general economic landscape. Musk noted on Tesla’s conference call last Wednesday that the company was delaying construction of its upcoming Gigafactory in Mexico due to concerns about global economic conditions stemming from rising interest rates that make financing cars more expensive for consumers, thus crimping demand.

    “I’m worried about the high interest rate environment we’re in,” Musk said, adding, “I just can’t emphasize enough how important cost is. … We have to make our products more affordable so people can buy [them].”

     

    https://gvwire.com/2023/10/27/gm-and-tesla-ceos-voice-concerns-over-ev-market/

     

    GM’s CEO, Mary Barra, who has been a strong advocate for EVs, announced during the company’s Q3 earnings call that GM is stepping back from its goal to produce 100,000 EVs in the second half of this year and another 400,000 by the first half of 2024. The company did not provide a new timeline for achieving these targets.

    Tesla’s Elon Musk also warned of potential economic issues that could dampen vehicle demand, even for the leading EV manufacturer. Mercedes-Benz, which has had to offer significant discounts on its EVs to boost sales, described the EV market as “brutal.”

    Most EVs are currently selling below their sticker price, and manufacturers are offering incentives of nearly 10% to encourage sales. However, these strategies are not proving effective, as EVs are taking longer to sell than their gasoline counterparts due to concerns over cost, infrastructure, and lifestyle changes.

    Ford was the first to adjust its EV strategy, extending its deadline to reach annual EV production of 600,000 by a year and abandoning its 2026 target to build 2 million EVs. Honda also scrapped plans to co-develop affordable EVs with GM, citing the unpredictable EV market.

     

     

    NOT this time around.  Investors will NOT help.  

    The government?

    Tesla is NOT too big to fail like GM or Chrysler was.   

    HOWEVER...Tesla WILL stay alive though.  They WILL exist.  Just not producing vehicles.  They will exist  providing  supercharger stations and selling EV motors and EV software programs to OEMs... 

    GM market cap $37 Billion.  Tesla market cap $650 billion.

    Of course GM and Ford are delaying their EV's because they lose money on them, and people don't want their overpriced EV's.   Hyundai just cut Ioniq 6 prices by $4,100 because people don't want a $50k Hyundai sedan when a Sonata is $30,000.  So they have chosen to soldier on and just lose more money per unit to keeping the factory running.  

    Mercedes dealers are complaining about the EQ series since they are too expensive and not aspirational products.   Although Mercedes total sales are down 1.8% this year and their EV's are up 339% to nearly 15% of their total volume.  ICE is dying off, all the more reason Mercedes needs to get their EV house in order and get better pricing, because once those aren't the new car on the showroom, people will lose interest at that price.

    Legacy auto might get away with a 1 year delay in sales as long as they use that 1 year to improve the product and get lower manufacturing cost.  If they are just trying to kick the can down the road and worry about it later, they will be too late to catch up.  And it isn't just in the US, in China the EV's are taking over, which is why GM, Ford and VW have lost about half their sales volume over there in the past 5 years, they can't compete on price over there.  BYD is already into Europe, and again VW can't compete on price.  Eventually BYD will come to the US too and they'll bring the price war with them.

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    45 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    GM market cap $37 Billion.  Tesla market cap $650 billion.

    Common dude...

    GM has more assets than Tesla does. GM sells more cars than Tesla does.  GM has the ability to have more capacity not only in EV production, but in battery production. Forgetting even their production capacity of ICE vehicles.  You know that Tesla's market cap is smoke and mirrors...

    Too many people invested too much money when Tesla was losing billions and THAT is why Tesla's market cap is where its at.  But if Tesla starts losing money again, and its quite possible, that cutting your losses will be the new norm for Tesla...

    45 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Of course GM and Ford are delaying their EV's because they lose money on them, and people don't want their overpriced EV's.  

    GM and Ford are delaying because the they will not be losing billions just for the sake of losing billions.  Tesla was losing billions but investors kept pumping money into Tesla.  Investors are fidgeting about Tesla's erosion in market share and Tesla's price cuts...

    GM and Ford like Elon have seen a trend where Americans may be wary of buying EVs.  Due to many reason.  Inflation and high interest rates as one reason.  Another is the demand for EVs maybe stalling INCLUDING those from Tesla.   Tesla aint the EV god it once was.  Erosion of market share PROVES this.  GM saw that their EV adoption rate from clients will take time to establish. Longer than expected. So GM is cautiously repositioning their sales targets. Like Elon has just stated.  EVERYBODY is in the SAME BOAT regarding EV sales in the US.  

    Elon blames interest rates. Investors are not exactly agrreing with that.  Investors are agreeing with the reality check of inflation AND interest rates so they applaud Elon for the precautionary statements and precautionary visions of Cybertruck sales etc.  But they also figure that the slowdown of Tesla sales are NOT exactly what Elon says 100% , but mostly because of market erosion and they worry that Tesla might NOT be able to overcome this massive influx of cometiton and their EVs...

    Same message I posted now with a THIRD and DIFFERENT source...

    The rest of your post is not an opinion based in reality...   

     

    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/19/tesla-shares-sink-6percent-following-earnings-commentary-by-elon-musk.html

    During the company’s quarterly call with investors, CEO Elon Musk shared pessimistic commentary about the state of the global economy, expressing concerns about the high interest rate environment and said it makes it harder for consumers to buy cars.

    Musk said Tesla is working to bring down the costs of its vehicles, which it will prioritize before the company goes “full-tilt” on building a new factory in Mexico.

    “We have to make our products more affordable so people can buy it,” Musk said on the call.

    Analysts at Bank of America reiterated their neutral rating on the stock and reduced their estimates for Tesla’s fourth quarter and out years due to its “lower gross margin profile.” The analysts also expressed some surprise about how much time Musk dedicated to discussing the global economy.

    “Interestingly, Elon Musk (CEO) dedicated a large amount of time to the broader macro environment and the effects of currently high interest rates,” the Bank of America analysts wrote in a Thursday note.

     

    Similarly, Morgan Stanley analysts said Thursday that despite Tesla’s disappointing third-quarter results, the “cautious commentary” around the economy is what “set the tone for the immediate stock reaction.”

    “In our opinion, 3Q23 was one of the most cautious Tesla conference calls we’ve heard in years,” the Morgan Stanley analysts wrote. They added that it’s fair to be concerned about interest rates but questioned how much of Tesla’s caution is actually due to competition or slowing demand.

    During the investor call, Musk also said he wanted to “temper expectations for Cybertruck,” Tesla’s sci-fi inspired truck. He noted that it will take a year or longer before the vehicle is a “significant positive cash flow contributor,” and that the vehicle will be challenging to mass-manufacture.

     “We dug our own grave with Cybertruck,” Musk said.

    Musk’s commentary was enough to worry analysts at Deutsche Bank.

    “Tesla’s 3Q earnings miss and cautious forward-looking comments around vehicle demand, 2024 growth outlook, slow and expensive ramp of Cybertruck, and uncertain timeline of next-gen platform, reinforce our published concerns on the company’s challenging fundamentals heading into next year,” the Deutsche Bank analysts wrote in a note Thursday.

    The analysts said they have continued concerns over Tesla’s 2024 growth.

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    EV sales are only 2% of all NEW auto sales.  They barely exist in the used car market.  Here is what I wonder:  if EVs are the next big thing, why can't I buy a new one for about $20K?  Until that is addressed, then "the EV is the next big thing" is little more than a pipe dream, regardless of government regulations.

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    26 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    EV sales are only 2% of all NEW auto sales.

     In the US (for 2022)...that figure is not 2%, but 5.7% of THE total sales of new vehicles.   If that figure continues to grow remains to be seen.  GM, Ford, Tesla, Mercedes of what Ive read doent think it will grow in the next few months or even couple of years because of several factors.  Ive posted some links with some valuable knowledge in my lost few posts.   So 2022 was a REALLY good year for EVs.  2023 up until Oct, things will going really well as well.  Its Oct 2023 and beyong for the near future that is worrisome.  

     

    https://cleantechnica.com/2023/02/25/us-electric-car-sales-increased-65-in-2022/

     

    According to our calculations, approximately 5.7% of US car sales were fully electric car sales in 2022. That’s up from 3.2% in 2021, 1.7% in 2020, and 1.4% in 2019.

     

    Im not going to research what country or market EV sales percentages are, but GLOBALLY (China leading the way), EV sales reached 10 million units accounting for 14% of NEW vehicle sales.   EVs do have a 60% market share there though. 

     

    And in the same link, WORLDWIDE estimates that EVs will reach 14 million units...

     

    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/26/electric-car-sales-surged-by-55percent-in-2022-to-hit-over-10-million-iea.html

     

    “This explosive growth means electric cars’ share of the overall car market has risen from around 4% in 2020 to 14% in 2022 and is set to increase further to 18% this year, based on the latest IEA projections,” a statement accompanying the report noted.  

     

    And in the same link, WORLDWIDE estimates that EVs will reach 14 million units...

     

    "Looking ahead, the Paris-based IEA — seen by many as an authoritative voice on the energy transition — said it was estimating worldwide sales to reach almost 14 million in 2023."

     

    All to say that your figure of 2% is wildly inaccurate, even by ONLY using US sales.   Sure, there is fear of a great letdown in the US for EV sales, its not JUST EV sales that will be hurting.  ICE vehicles will most probably BE affected too.  Inflation and high loan interest rates does NOT discriminate between ICE and BEV...   But most scaredy cat Americans that have been fed bullshyte lies about EVs WILL most probably stay away from EV purchases rather than ICE if one HAS to buy a vehicle in this shytty economical climate.  I know I did.  I traded in my Acura, got my wife's Fusion and biught her a 2024 ICE Honda Civic. 

     

    For this reason that you have stated:

    45 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    why can't I buy a new one for about $20K? 

     

    But the thing is: show me WHERE in the HELL in Canada AND in the United States OF America can I buy a NEW internal combustion engined car for 20K? 

    Answer is I CANNOT!  No vehicle IN Canada and in the US can I buy such a thing.  In MExico I can. But Ameri-Canadians do NOT want THAT kind of vehicle...  A subcompact.  Compacts barley sell.  And even those have risen ABOVE 20K.  The Civic in Canadian dollars cost me 28 thousand  and change CDN for a BASE model.  IN the US...the BASE Civic starts at 23 thousand and change USD.   Even a bloody Civic cannot be had at your 20K mythical price tag.  

    Lets be honest and real. Let us NOT stretch truths to fit our agendas. 

     

    56 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    Until that is addressed, then "the EV is the next big thing" is little more than a pipe dream, regardless of government regulations.

     Its not really a pipe dream though.

    Forget about China.   Lets see what other car markets have to say about EV sales percentages (I will do some research on other car markets)

    In Germany, BEVs reached 17.7% in 2022

    https://europe.autonews.com/sales-market/germanys-bev-market-share-almost-catches-diesel-2022

     In France...17.4%.   And that would be BEVs.  Of we accounted for  plug-ins in Germany and France, the percentage would be a lot higher...

    https://insideevs.com/news/677538/france-plugin-car-sales-june2023/

     

    Its fine if an EV does not fit your needs.  An EV did not fit in my current state of financial realities AND in my daily driven requirements.  I do not drive enough to offset the savings in gas to justify a high priced EV.  Actually, I couldnt even afford a mid priced internal combustion vehicle.  ( I buy new) 

    So I had to settle for the cheapest available priced new internal combustion vehicle I could find. And at 28 000 Canadian dollars, THAT would be the CHEAPEST NEW internal combustion vehicle available (multiple  contexts for the usage of the word available)  in Canada (Quebec).   

    But, we do have to be truthful about realities and our agendas... 

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    13 hours ago, riviera74 said:

    EV sales are only 2% of all NEW auto sales.  They barely exist in the used car market.  Here is what I wonder:  if EVs are the next big thing, why can't I buy a new one for about $20K?  Until that is addressed, then "the EV is the next big thing" is little more than a pipe dream, regardless of government regulations.

    EV sales are 8% of the market in the USA, 25% in California.  EV’s are 14% of new cars sales in Europe and 31% in China.  Guess what the #1 volume market was for GM and VW?  China.  But GM and VW are bleeding sales over there.

    You can barely get an ICE car for $20k, that won’t buy you a base Corolla, but let’s say $25k gets you a Civic, Trax, Kona, etc.

    If someone builds a $30k sticker price EV in North America, the $7500 tax credit is applied point of sale starting in January, now we have a $22,500 EV that is cheaper than ICE.  If the domestics don’t figure it out, the Chinese already have.

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