Cadillac CT4 Debuts May 30th

You know, maybe Cadillac's problem is GM itself.  Too bad there is no 35 or 40 year old car genius that could save Cadillac from GM's worst instincts.  Mary Barra has done a great job from a financial POV but the products that would drive the Germans, the Japanese, the Koreans (and soon the Chinese) out of the American automotive marketplace simply are not there.  Prior to the original Chevrolet Vega, each division had leaders and engineers bent on outpacing the other divisions (and Ford and Chrysler) to be the best.  Now, there are no leaders in the remaining divisions that WANT to outsell and outpace everyone else anymore.  Nowhere in the history of business does mediocre management lead to greatness.  Cadillac needs great leadership a lot more than Chevy, Buick or GMC.  Any ideas on how to solve that issue?

Cadillac prices have just moved with inflation, they haven’t really gone up market.

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The X7 and old GLS both outsell the Navigator already.

Nope.
2019 Q1 ~
X7 : 4,477
GLS : 7,695
Navigator : 7,835

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Nope.
2019 Q1 ~
X7 : 4,477
GLS : 7,695
Navigator : 7,835

Escalade is 6819 for Q1 sales. Navigator outsold them all.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a 20 year old Catera, drop an LS V8/T-56 in there, and give it GTO suspension and brakes?

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Nope.
2019 Q1 ~
X7 : 4,477
GLS : 7,695
Navigator : 7,835

Navigator had 4,469 in Q1.  The X7 has only been on sale like 2 months, let's see where the year ends.  The GLS is the oldest in the segment, and still doing pretty well, and the GLS has a vehicle above it that could steal sales off it.

@balthazar @smk4565

OK, Time to correct these figures so based on actual monthly release data from the Manufacture web sites, by the numbers:

2019 Q1 figures This is ONLY January to March figures. BMW X7 was only on sale in March, no reported numbers for Jan or Feb. GLS is based on Jan - March sales as are Navigator and Escalade.

X7 - 2186

GLS -6017

Navigator - 4469

Escalade - 6819

Q1 2019 King of the SUV Full Size Luxury Sales is Cadillac Escalade.

Must’ve misread- got Gator numbers from sales ticker on C&G.

EDIT :: I posted the Nautilus / MKX number by mistake.

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

@balthazar @smk4565

OK, Time to correct these figures so based on actual monthly release data from the Manufacture web sites, by the numbers:

2019 Q1 figures This is ONLY January to March figures. BMW X7 was only on sale in March, no reported numbers for Jan or Feb. GLS is based on Jan - March sales as are Navigator and Escalade.

X7 - 2186

GLS -6017

Navigator - 4469

Escalade - 6819

Q1 2019 King of the SUV Full Size Luxury Sales is Cadillac Escalade.

Correct but that X7 is off to a  hot start, April it did better than in March.    So I'd like to see where the X7 is at come the end of the year.  Considering the GLS's age, being #2 and being up for the year is pretty good.   And the Escalade I have said many a times is a big success, that is easy profit margin for Cadillac given the price and volume, and engineering work that is spread across a lot of vehicles.  

The Escalade's secret sauce hasn't been able to be replicated on the rest of the Cadillac brand, that is the problem.  And even though Escalade does well here, I think there is room for something above Escalade in the $200k range.  I wouldn't change the Escalade, it isn't broke so don't fix it.  But all these car makers are coming up with $200-300k SUVs and even more expensive and that was  unheard of 10 years ago, when maybe a Range Rover or G-wagen was $100k and that was the most expensive SUV you could get.

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Correct but that X7 is off to a  hot start, April it did better than in March.    So I'd like to see where the X7 is at come the end of the year.  Considering the GLS's age, being #2 and being up for the year is pretty good.   And the Escalade I have said many a times is a big success, that is easy profit margin for Cadillac given the price and volume, and engineering work that is spread across a lot of vehicles.  

The Escalade's secret sauce hasn't been able to be replicated on the rest of the Cadillac brand, that is the problem.  And even though Escalade does well here, I think there is room for something above Escalade in the $200k range.  I wouldn't change the Escalade, it isn't broke so don't fix it.  But all these car makers are coming up with $200-300k SUVs and even more expensive and that was  unheard of 10 years ago, when maybe a Range Rover or G-wagen was $100k and that was the most expensive SUV you could get.

I have said many times, Cadillac needs a V edition. Escalade options that Cadillac should be doing:

• Escalade V Sport
• Escalade V
• Escalade Limo Edition. Just think of no 2nd seat, 3rd seat is your prime seating with plenty of leg room.
• Escalade Custom = Maybach.

Yup Money left on the table.

20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Corvette was, is and will forever BE GM's halo sports car...and it will forever BE a Chevrolet or tied to the Chevrolet brand. 

Chevrolet, especially when Pontiac and Oldsmobile are no longer around, Chevrolet IS GM's performance brand and THAT is where the Corvette belongs...

The only other direction the Corvette could go, is on its own, but with strong ties to...Chevrolet.

NO...

Cadillac does NOT NEED a sports car. Their market does not even ask for a sports car. At most...maybe...a GT car. 

But even before a  2 door coupe GT car, like a Bentley GT, Cadillac would benefit more through a personal luxury vehicle, and it not even need be a coupe...

I am a believer that the Corvette should be turbo v6 base and V8 optional and live in a $50-90k price range like a Boxster or base Corvette vs a Supra because it is a Chevy and should have value sports car as the equation somewhere.  Which it what it was from 1953 to 2006 before they starting to get into high dollar ZR-1's and now going mid-engine.  

But even if Corvette is to stay how it is, and their numbers show the current car is profitable and doing what they want I am fine with that.  But what if someone wants more performance than the Corvette offers?  Or what if they want Corvette performance and Escalade Platinum luxury and Super Cruise?  

I know Cadillac can't build all things for all people, but they need some sort of sports car.  The sports car isn't just for it's own volume it is to build image for the brand.  And what if Cadillac engineers want to build a rival to the Tesla Roadster, do they just get told no, because they aren't allowed to make something faster than a CHEVROLET?  That makes no sense.

1 minute ago, dfelt said:

I have said many times, Cadillac needs a V edition. Escalade options that Cadillac should be doing:

• Escalade V Sport
• Escalade V
• Escalade Limo Edition. Just think of no 2nd seat, 3rd seat is your prime seating with plenty of leg room.
• Escalade Custom = Maybach.

Yup Money left on the table.

100%.  Drop a ZR1 engine in an Escalade and charge $160,000 for it.  It would be pointless but people would buy it anyway.  There are idiots with money out there.

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The X7 and old GLS both outsell the Navigator already.  The 2021 Escalade will still be a Tahoe underneath, where as the GLS can fit someone 6’4” in the 3rd row as it was designed to have the roomiest 3rd row.  Also the GLS Maybach will be on sale in 2020, and it will be the most expensive American made vehicle ever oddly enough.  The uber lux crowd is shopping Maybach, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Bentley for an SUV come 2020.

So they do outsell the 'Gator.

My remark was more tongue 'n cheek regarding the 'Gator...

About the Escalade.  There is NOTHING that Ferrari, M-B Maybach, Bentley, Lamborghini will do to dethrone the Escalade.

The Maybach, Ferrari, Lambo will be priced higher, but as far as cache goes...the Escalade is THE one.

Cry, whine, yell and complain. The Escalade is king of the fullsized SUVs. 

The others wills sell solely on the merit of a higher price tag. 

And THAT right there is what Im talking about with Cadillac...

You mentioned that Mercedes sold out its million dollar F1 derived sports car...

To that I say:   YES!!! EXACTLY!!!   THAT is what people are waiting for Cadillac to do! No...not a sports car, but a vehicle, any type of vehicle except a sports car that emphasizes stinkin' rich, give no shyte about nothing and nobody, excess to the point of increasing global climate change at an alarming rate, high priced HUGE CADILLAC! 

If Cadillac built a Ciel EXACTLY the way the Ciel was as a concept, not watered down, with all the technology available and the opulence necessary and Cadillac priced THAT Ciel at at extremely high price...they would sell every single one they build...

Like I said...275 units on a souped up CT6 that detractors like yourself would not blink an eye at priced that no other Cadillac sedan has ever been priced before in the last 40 years...

Not quite Eldorado Brougham Biarritz of the 1957 vintage...but...that is the thing...

Cadillac finds itself into a price realm they havent seen since those 1950-1960-early 1970s glory days...

If you dont want to see that...I cant help you.

But like Balthy said...

The Maybach failed for umpteenth time in the early 2000s.  Now...Mercedes is reviving it again as a TRIM package. A far cry to what Maybach USED to mean to the luxury world in the past and from the last time Maybach was a thing...

Cadillac...whether you want to admit to it or not...even Cadillac CEOs dont see it I bet...Cadillac has crept up in price and people are accepting of it...slowly...but surely...

And it took the Escalade to get there. 

Not the Zig Zagging, ATS, CTS, STS...but what Cadillac was ALWAYS famous for...

Arrogant, excessive, huge...vehicles... 

And THAT is why I still feel that the CT4 is a mistake. This is why I feel that the road to success is with high priced, arrogantly styled, mid to huge vehicles...

24 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I am a believer that the Corvette should be turbo v6 base and V8 optional and live in a $50-90k price range like a Boxster or base Corvette vs a Supra because it is a Chevy and should have value sports car as the equation somewhere.  Which it what it was from 1953 to 2006 before they starting to get into high dollar ZR-1's and now going mid-engine.  

But even if Corvette is to stay how it is, and their numbers show the current car is profitable and doing what they want I am fine with that.  But what if someone wants more performance than the Corvette offers?  Or what if they want Corvette performance and Escalade Platinum luxury and Super Cruise?  

I know Cadillac can't build all things for all people, but they need some sort of sports car.  The sports car isn't just for it's own volume it is to build image for the brand.  And what if Cadillac engineers want to build a rival to the Tesla Roadster, do they just get told no, because they aren't allowed to make something faster than a CHEVROLET?  That makes no sense.

Cadillac needs to be on its own to have a BASE turbo V6. But I agree with that philosophy.

But NO!

Corvette was ALWAYS about high performance.

Even when it was introduced in 1953 with the inline 6.   Its just that it was rushed into production when it was shown at the Autorama show...or wherever it was shown. Chevrolet big wigs saw a buzz surrounding the Corvette, so they pitched the idea to GM and GM greenlit it...and they had less than 1 year to produce it...Chevrolet did not have time to really engineer it the way people saw it, the way the Corvette looked like it was a barn burner...

People flocked to it, but WERE disappointed that the performance figures did not translate the way the Corvette looked. It was faster that the conventional American cars of the time, but the Corvette looked like it would be a rocket...

Zora, 2-3 years later engineered it to be fast like a rocket and then the sales took off for it...

And after that, the Corvette always stood for performance...

The Corvette was ALWAYS the General Motors PERFORMANCE halo car...ALWAYS...

Its only YOU that does not get it!

Folk at Cadillac, dont want fast Cadillacs. They want disgustingly huge, excessive opulence.

  Cadillac folk want a fast car...they buy a Corvette!   

In the case below...they buy Cobras...

That dude's Cobra was hitched to the back of his Cadillac...

But there are no more Cobras to be bought...no more Vipers to be bought....no more Porsche 928s to be bought. No more Toyota Supras to be bought (its coming back...it aint a big deal for Corvette)...no more Mazda RX7 or 8s to be bought,  That is right...the Corvette beat them all on the track and in the showroom. 

The Corvette has got a really good battle going on with the Porsche 911 and Ferrari 400 Series...(and it nearly made the 911 go away too...and Porsche did the 928, but purists realized that the 911 is truly special...so they flocked back top it...) 

But...a Corvette (any front engine RWD car actually) with excess of 500 horsepower and 500 ft.lbs torque cannot put the power down the way it should to compete with the current AWD RE 911s and ME Ferraris. Corvette NEEDS to go ME to EVOLVE to CONTINUE the performance battle...

Or it could go AWD, but that would add weight...and Corvette has ALWAYS been about REDUCED weight....except when it was the smog equipped, low compression, CAFE Disco days...

I really dont get it why YOU dont get it...

Cadillac does NOT NEED a Tesla roadster competitor. Cadillac clientele are NOT ASKING for a Tesla roadster competitor.

Cadillac clientele are asking for a Ciel convertible with a possible EV powertrain that has the power of a Tesla roadster....

The Escalade's secret sauce?

For it to be replicated to the other cars in the line-up?

Simple!

People really want big Cadillacs...Big Cadillacs is what Cadillac is.

THAT is the secret sauce.

It wasnt cool to own a big Cadillac at one time. Or any Cadillac for that matter. For reasons.

But...THAT time has come and gone. 

Its time for Cadillac to embrace its lineage and heritage once more. 

By that (Escalade) standard, the XT6 might be too small and the CT4 is clearly not on-brand.  Gotta address that.

Ultimately, it all comes down to a unique selling point.  What does Cadillac have that NONE of the other luxury makes have?

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

About the Escalade.  There is NOTHING that Ferrari, M-B Maybach, Bentley, Lamborghini will do to dethrone the Escalade.

The Maybach, Ferrari, Lambo will be priced higher, but as far as cache goes...the Escalade is THE one.

Cry, whine, yell and complain. The Escalade is king of the fullsized SUVs. 

The others wills sell solely on the merit of a higher price tag. 

And THAT right there is what Im talking about with Cadillac...

You mentioned that Mercedes sold out its million dollar F1 derived sports car...

To that I say:   YES!!! EXACTLY!!!   THAT is what people are waiting for Cadillac to do! No...not a sports car, but a vehicle, any type of vehicle except a sports car that emphasizes stinkin' rich, give no shyte about nothing and nobody, excess to the point of increasing global climate change at an alarming rate, high priced HUGE CADILLAC! 

A Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley or Rolls-Royce doesn't have the cache of an Escalade?    Oh Please.

Believe me, if Cadillac could sell the Escalade at $300,000 they would price it that way.  

Bentley is now selling a book about their 100 year history for $255,000.  A freaking Bentley book is over a quarter million and some rich bastard will buy that just to say they own it and to rub it in the face of their neighbor who doesn't have the Bentley history book on his private jet.

I do think Mercedes is smart to try use Maybach to fill the space in between where Lexus and Audi stop and Rolls and Bentley begin, there is like $100k of gap there.

If Cadillac wants to build big luxo barges  and be the American Rolls-Royce that is fine with me.  But they have to pick a mission and stick to it.  XT4 isn't moving the needle, CT5 is a down-market CTS, so I expect CT4 to be a down-market ATS.   Americans are getting bigger and older, maybe going back to luxe barges in sedan and SUV form is a play for them.  Problem is they never execute these plans well.

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Cadillac needs to be on its own to have a BASE turbo V6. But I agree with that philosophy.

But NO!

And after that, the Corvette always stood for performance...

The Corvette was ALWAYS the General Motors PERFORMANCE halo car...ALWAYS...

The Corvette has got a really good battle going on with the Porsche 911 and Ferrari 400 Series...(and it nearly made the 911 go away too...and Porsche did the 928, but purists realized that the 911 is truly special...so they flocked back top it...) 

But...a Corvette (any front engine RWD car actually) with excess of 500 horsepower and 500 ft.lbs torque cannot put the power down the way it should to compete with the current AWD RE 911s and ME Ferraris. Corvette NEEDS to go ME to EVOLVE to CONTINUE the performance battle...

Or it could go AWD, but that would add weight...and Corvette has ALWAYS been about REDUCED weight....except when it was the smog equipped, low compression, CAFE Disco days...

I really dont get it why YOU dont get it...

 

Cadillac does NOT NEED a Tesla roadster competitor. Cadillac clientele are NOT ASKING for a Tesla roadster competitor.

Cadillac clientele are asking for a Ciel convertible with a possible EV powertrain that has the power of a Tesla roadster....

 

Corvette should be Chevy's ultimate sports car, not GM's.  But sports cars are a dying breed so I get GM not wanting to pump R&D money into a Cadillac sports car when they can sell re-worked Acadias and Equinoxes instead.  

The 911 has never been in any danger of going anywhere, and there is rumor that the 928 is coming back as a front engine V8 coupe.  

Agreed on needing all wheel driver over 500 hp, otherwise you are just spinning tire and 800 hp does nothing different that 500 hp does at that point.  Or you need mid-engine and loads of downforce when you get into big power numbers.

I think Corvette should stay true to its roots.  Like you won't ever see a mid-engine Mercedes SL or Porsche 911 because they are sticking with what they are.  They did other models for mid-engine when that was called upon (AMG One, Carrera GT, 918)

Agreed Cadillac needs a convertible, I don't know how a luxury brand doesn't have a convertible.

If Cadillac clientele are not asking for a Tesla competitor, it is because their customers already left for Tesla.  Tesla is the hot brand, Cadillac should be looking at going after them.

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

By that (Escalade) standard, the XT6 might be too small and the CT4 is clearly not on-brand.  Gotta address that.

Ultimately, it all comes down to a unique selling point.  What does Cadillac have that NONE of the other luxury makes have?

Right, Cadillac doesn't really have any unique attribute or clear mission and that has been going on for 25-30 years.  Even with the CT6 they talked about how shedding weight in every way possible was the focus, and yet their most successful product is a an overweight, 6,000 lb truck with a big V8.   Then they did this big push how CTS and ATS are going to beat the 5-series and 3-series in performance and no one cared, because Cadillac buyers wants space and comfort, like in an Escalade.  No focus, no clear mission.

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

A Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley or Rolls-Royce doesn't have the cache of an Escalade?    Oh Please.

Not in SUVs...

Besides...those 1950s and 1960s Cadillacs...

They go a long way with automotive historical prestige with people.  Yes...rivaling Ferrari and Rolls.

Id say SURPASSING Lamborghini, Bentley, and even Rolls Royce...

Cadillac...Cadillac's past achievements still resonate strongly with people all over the world...Even in markets that have NEVER had a Cadillac sold in their country. But through music and movies...

So yeah...stop being a douche...you know this to be true. Stop acting like you are a naive little 5 year old girl playing with your Barbie dolls...

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Believe me, if Cadillac could sell the Escalade at $300,000 they would price it that way.  

Not now...they need volume models...

This is the only volume model they have that sells...

How many 300 000 dollar cars do YOU think anybody could sell...month after month...year after year.  Common man...stop being a douche.

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Bentley is now selling a book about their 100 year history for $255,000.  A freaking Bentley book is over a quarter million and some rich bastard will buy that just to say they own it and to rub it in the face of their neighbor who doesn't have the Bentley history book on his private jet.

yes...EXACTLY!

THIS is what Cadillac needs...

As rich as Bentley's history is...Cadillac's is richer...

Bentley stumbled too you know...and was just a less expensive Rolls Royce from years 1970s-1990s...

All Cadillac needs is a similar kick in the ass. Which they havent done...

But they are on the verge...

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I do think Mercedes is smart to try use Maybach to fill the space in between where Lexus and Audi stop and Rolls and Bentley begin, there is like $100k of gap there.

Of course you think that....

Maybach has failed countless of times....this time wont be any different...

Ironically...you think highly of Maybach, but wont give Cadillac its due...with the CT6 and the Escalade...

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If Cadillac wants to build big luxo barges  and be the American Rolls-Royce that is fine with me.  But they have to pick a mission and stick to it.  XT4 isn't moving the needle, CT5 is a down-market CTS, so I expect CT4 to be a down-market ATS.   Americans are getting bigger and older, maybe going back to luxe barges in sedan and SUV form is a play for them.  Problem is they never execute these plans well.

Yes...THIS is what Im saying...

Cadillac needs to overhaul its mission statement. Mercedes is doing it with Maybach...

Yes...Cadillac WAS the Standard...THAT would be Rolls Royce terittory once upon a time ago...(let us not go why they are no longer that...we've done that...we understand the reasons....going forward is what we should be discussing here, you and I...)

No...they dont execute any plan well the last 40-50 years...THIS they gotta change. 

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Corvette should be Chevy's ultimate sports car, not GM's.  But sports cars are a dying breed so I get GM not wanting to pump R&D money into a Cadillac sports car when they can sell re-worked Acadias and Equinoxes instead.  

The Corvette was ALWAYS GM's ultimate show for performance. Its Chevrolet that was lucky enough to get the car. Because reasons. I dont remember why...something to do with demographics of the time and the car wasnt the right car for cadillac at the time. But perfect for Chevrolet. 

But Corvette was supposed to be spread around the brands...

Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Buick were also to get one. Or at least there were concepts of what Corvette could have been with those brands. And guess what?  Cadillac did not get a Corvette version concept...

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The 911 has never been in any danger of going anywhere, and there is rumor that the 928 is coming back as a front engine V8 coupe.

I STRONGLY suggest you read up on your automotive history...I certainly wont waste my time googling links for you...

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I think Corvette should stay true to its roots.  Like you won't ever see a mid-engine Mercedes SL or Porsche 911 because they are sticking with what they are.  They did other models for mid-engine when that was called upon (AMG One, Carrera GT, 918)

That is the thing...having a mid-engined Corvette IS sticking to its roots...

Never mind the idiotic argument that that is...sticking top its roots...

But...Zora wanted a Mid-engineed Corvette as early as the late 1950s...again...I STRONGLY suggest you read up on your automotive history. I wont be wasting my time googling links for you...

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If Cadillac clientele are not asking for a Tesla competitor, it is because their customers already left for Tesla.  Tesla is the hot brand, Cadillac should be looking at going after them.

ROADSTER....Cadillac clientele dont necessarily want a roadster...I dont think...

Stop misinterpreting what I said...

On 5/16/2019 at 11:43 PM, dfelt said:

 

 This is going to give the Germans a run for their money as well as the Americans I believe.

I don’t understand the Kia Telluride love. I sat in one at the auto show. Control trim parts were already falling off from the auto show traffic. I do admit there was something interesting about the interior. But don’t kid yourself; it still has that Korean Faux to its design and it still is nothing more than a bread and butter brand product reaching into a new segment. 

On 5/17/2019 at 4:38 AM, ocnblu said:

Wow, that new Mercedes is like a half-used bar of sandalwood-scented soap dropped in the gym shower by a hipster with zero hair on his body except for his massive, perfectly-coifed beard infused with glitter.

I am hoping my love for Duke Cannon Sandalwood Old milwaukee beer soap excludes me from that hipster category you deftly described above. ??Plus I have SOME hair. Not bear hair but some. ? 

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Corvette should be Chevy's ultimate sports car, not GM's.  But sports cars are a dying breed so I get GM not wanting to pump R&D money into a Cadillac sports car when they can sell re-worked Acadias and Equinoxes instead.  

The 911 has never been in any danger of going anywhere, and there is rumor that the 928 is coming back as a front engine V8 coupe.  

Agreed on needing all wheel driver over 500 hp, otherwise you are just spinning tire and 800 hp does nothing different that 500 hp does at that point.  Or you need mid-engine and loads of downforce when you get into big power numbers.

I think Corvette should stay true to its roots.  Like you won't ever see a mid-engine Mercedes SL or Porsche 911 because they are sticking with what they are.  They did other models for mid-engine when that was called upon (AMG One, Carrera GT, 918)

Agreed Cadillac needs a convertible, I don't know how a luxury brand doesn't have a convertible.

If Cadillac clientele are not asking for a Tesla competitor, it is because their customers already left for Tesla.  Tesla is the hot brand, Cadillac should be looking at going after them.

It’s a shame a hot brand like Tesla (does that mean their cars like to catch on ??) can’t even get trim and body panels to line up  that’s my own photo from the other day  

1 hour ago, regfootball said:

I don’t understand the Kia Telluride love. I sat in one at the auto show. Control trim parts were already falling off from the auto show traffic. I do admit there was something interesting about the interior. But don’t kid yourself; it still has that Korean Faux to its design and it still is nothing more than a bread and butter brand product reaching into a new segment. 

Have not sat in one yet, only going based on pictures and comments from others that have and am interested in hearing what Drew thought of the CUV. Yet, Kia has continued to improve their auto's and moving into the luxury segment of the hot area that folks want an auto in, this should take sales.

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Corvette was ALWAYS GM's ultimate show for performance. Its Chevrolet that was lucky enough to get the car. Because reasons. I dont remember why...something to do with demographics of the time and the car wasnt the right car for cadillac at the time. But perfect for Chevrolet. 

But Corvette was supposed to be spread around the brands...

Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Buick were also to get one. Or at least there were concepts of what Corvette could have been with those brands. And guess what?  Cadillac did not get a Corvette version concept...

The non-Chevy, Corvette-esque concepts of '54 weren't really considered seriously- they were attention-grabbing show cars is about it. There was no development past them; they weren't intended for production. And Cadillac actually did get one- the '53 2/3-seater LeMans, which Cadillac built 5 of. It likely had more serious consideration that the Olds/Pontiac/Buick versions for production.

The Corvette, I believe, was intended to be more of an 'everyday man's' sport car, and therefore seemed logical for Chevrolet… but even from '53, it was high priced. It was closer to double the top '53 Chevy base price, and only $100-200 cheaper than the base Series 62 Coupe at Cadillac in '53. smk's claim it's been a cheap sports car since the beginning is invalid. A 'Corvette' for Cadillac in '53 was too far removed from their position & mission at the time. The LeMans would've worked well, tho… but Cadillac had the Eldorado convertible, which would have it's own unique rear clip from '55-58.

Cadillac needs a real leader and a real unique selling point STAT.  Who will be the former and provide the latter?

Well I'm not working this wknd.  I could step in.  BLACKWING FLEETWOODS, ELDORADOS AND ESCALADES FOR EVERYONE!

On May 17, 2019 at 8:14 PM, smk4565 said:

Drop a ZR1 engine in an Escalade and charge $160,000 for it.  It would be pointless but people would buy it anyway.

Just curious; how many do you think would sell, when you continually claim "no one" bought the ATS and CTS??

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Just curious; how many do you think would sell, when you continually claim "no one" bought the ATS and CTS??

500 a year which at a $60k premium for an engine swap, and beefed up brakes and suspension seems like a way to get an extra $40k profit per unit which is $20 million in extra profit.

And they might be able to move 1,000 per year.  But also the 500 they sell are not 500 sales lost to Mercedes or Bentley or someone else.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

500 a year which at a $60k premium for an engine swap, and beefed up brakes and suspension seems like a way to get an extra $40k profit per unit which is $20 million in extra profit.

And they might be able to move 1,000 per year.  But also the 500 they sell are not 500 sales lost to Mercedes or Bentley or someone else.

How do you figure that Benz would not lose sales when that kind of Escalade would directly compete with high performance Benz SUVs? 

I just love how you sidestep anything that might reflect negatively on Benz. The statement above is a perfect example. 

Wait - isn't a mere 500 units equal to "no one buys them" ??

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

How do you figure that Benz would not lose sales when that kind of Escalade would directly compete with high performance Benz SUVs? 

 

I just love how you sidestep anything that might reflect negatively on Benz. The statement above is a perfect example. 

Mercedes could lose sales if there was a 700 hp Escalade.  That could eat into GLS63 or G63 sales.  The performance SUV market is growing thankfully, I am sure Mercedes has lost sales the the Bentayga and Urus because the AMG SUVs, Cayenne Turbo and X5 M weren't the only game in town anymore.  But there is more and more demand for this sort of thing.

My point before was Cadillac is losing out on sales opportunity by not offering an Escalade-V or a CT6-V based crossover because all these other guys have ultra SUVs now.  For some odd reason there is demand for sub 4 second 0-60 SUVs that can do 190 mph and get around the Nurburgring in under 8 minutes all while offering top end luxury.

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes could lose sales if there was a 700 hp Escalade.  That could eat into GLS63 or G63 sales.  The performance SUV market is growing thankfully, I am sure Mercedes has lost sales the the Bentayga and Urus because the AMG SUVs, Cayenne Turbo and X5 M weren't the only game in town anymore.  But there is more and more demand for this sort of thing.

My point before was Cadillac is losing out on sales opportunity by not offering an Escalade-V or a CT6-V based crossover because all these other guys have ultra SUVs now.  For some odd reason there is demand for sub 4 second 0-60 SUVs that can do 190 mph and get around the Nurburgring in under 8 minutes all while offering top end luxury.

Um no. This is what you said. 

“And they might be able to move 1,000 per year.  But also the 500 they sell are not 500 sales lost to Mercedes or Bentley or someone else”

I.e. even if Cadillac put out a hi-po Escalade it wouldn’t steal sales from Mercedes. Now you are, once again, trying to move the bar and backpedal on your literal words. Let me make myself clear on this. A hi-po Escalade will absolutely steal sales from Mercedes. There is no maybe or anything else for that matter that would change that fact. Cadillac started stealing sales from Benz the moment the Escalade hit its stride in 2007 and a 700 HP one would steal even more. 

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Um no. This is what you said. 

“And they might be able to move 1,000 per year.  But also the 500 they sell are not 500 sales lost to Mercedes or Bentley or someone else”

 

I.e. even if Cadillac put out a hi-po Escalade it wouldn’t steal sales from Mercedes. Now you are, once again, trying to move the bar and backpedal on your literal words. Let me make myself clear on this. A hi-po Escalade will absolutely steal sales from Mercedes. There is no maybe or anything else for that matter that would change that fact. Cadillac started stealing sales from Benz the moment the Escalade hit its stride in 2007 and a 700 HP one would steal even more. 

My statement what you have in bold states my belief that Cadillac is currently losing sales to Mercedes and others that have high performance SUVs.  They easily lose 500 units just by not offering the product and I think Cadillac can get 500 people that were going to buy an Escalade anyway to pay an extra $60,000 for a V-series.  They could sell 1,000 Escalde-V a year I think, 100 a month on average for a vehicle that has about 2,000 units a month volume I think is doable.

I haven't read through everything but I saw sales comparisons.. Don't all new entries come out of the gate pretty hot? I think the Escalade and 'Gator numbers are pretty impressive not only besting the "competition" but the Escalade is the oldest by a country mile. 

On 5/17/2019 at 8:26 PM, riviera74 said:

By that (Escalade) standard, the XT6 might be too small and the CT4 is clearly not on-brand.  Gotta address that.

Ultimately, it all comes down to a unique selling point.  What does Cadillac have that NONE of the other luxury makes have?

Pretty much Escalade. The Navigator is the only true competition when it comes to a vehicle THAT size. 

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I haven't read through everything but I saw sales comparisons.. Don't all new entries come out of the gate pretty hot? I think the Escalade and 'Gator numbers are pretty impressive not only besting the "competition" but the Escalade is the oldest by a country mile. 

Pretty much Escalade. The Navigator is the only true competition when it comes to a vehicle THAT size. 

Reposting for clarity:

2019 Q1 figures This is ONLY January to March figures. BMW X7 was only on sale in March, no reported numbers for Jan or Feb. GLS is based on Jan - March sales as are Navigator and Escalade.

X7 - 2186

GLS -6017

Navigator - 4469

Escalade - 6819

Q1 2019 King of the SUV Full Size Luxury Sales is Cadillac Escalade.

I totally agree with you that all new auto's come out hot from the gate, the fact that the Escalade is still the champ with the oldest luxury SUV out there shows they have hit a consistent quality that people love.

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 6:26 PM, riviera74 said:

By that (Escalade) standard, the XT6 might be too small and the CT4 is clearly not on-brand.  Gotta address that.

Ultimately, it all comes down to a unique selling point.  What does Cadillac have that NONE of the other luxury makes have?

As a past and current Cadillac owner, I will say that Cadillac has lost their way on the cars, CUV's always have room to improve but they have nailed that even though I see no need for the CT4 or XT4 as Buick covers that small size niche as a Near luxury provider.

Cadillac Escalade has survived due to the way they ride, interior room, for some the Bling affect and a look on top of the feel that is hard to match.

Cadillac needs to embrace their history of names and with todays version of Magnetic ride control give customers what they want, the true full size large auto's with roomy interiors that can be driven in either drivers mode, sport, luxury, etc. what ever mode the individual wants allowing them to have their cake and eat it. That is what Cadillac needs to embrace and what they have with the Escalade.

6 hours ago, dfelt said:

Reposting for clarity:

2019 Q1 figures This is ONLY January to March figures. BMW X7 was only on sale in March, no reported numbers for Jan or Feb. GLS is based on Jan - March sales as are Navigator and Escalade.

X7 - 2186

GLS -6017

Navigator - 4469

Escalade - 6819

Q1 2019 King of the SUV Full Size Luxury Sales is Cadillac Escalade.

I totally agree with you that all new auto's come out hot from the gate, the fact that the Escalade is still the champ with the oldest luxury SUV out there shows they have hit a consistent quality that people love.

 

As a past and current Cadillac owner, I will say that Cadillac has lost their way on the cars, CUV's always have room to improve but they have nailed that even though I see no need for the CT4 or XT4 as Buick covers that small size niche as a Near luxury provider.

Cadillac Escalade has survived due to the way they ride, interior room, for some the Bling affect and a look on top of the feel that is hard to match.

Cadillac needs to embrace their history of names and with todays version of Magnetic ride control give customers what they want, the true full size large auto's with roomy interiors that can be driven in either drivers mode, sport, luxury, etc. what ever mode the individual wants allowing them to have their cake and eat it. That is what Cadillac needs to embrace and what they have with the Escalade.

So what would you name the XT4, XT5 and XT6?   How would you most improve the CT6, as well as the CT5 and CT4?

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

So what would you name the XT4, XT5 and XT6

Escalade Kindergartner, Escalade Awkward Teen, and Escalade Senior In High School.  That way, the halo effect of the big boy stretches downward.

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

So what would you name the XT4, XT5 and XT6?   How would you most improve the CT6, as well as the CT5 and CT4?

I actually had a complete naming convention posted in another thread on that very same question of how I would change Cadillac and it got zero response.

Let me see if I can find it again. Search engine sucks for looking for ones earlier posts.  

On 5/17/2019 at 8:58 AM, riviera74 said:

People want to buy a Buick Verano?  I know Buick is essentially a CUV brand these days, but I never saw a market for the Verano.  The 2nd Gen LaCrosse maybe, but not the Verano (or the Cascada for that matter).

Buick's price point has risen dramatically.  It's too close to that of Cadillac.

As for the Verano, I guess it depends on the dealership's catchment area and its demographics.  At the dealership I use, people have been asking for the lower priced Buick cars and CUV/SUV products.  Some of them want to only spend about $25 K on a new car.  In wealthier markets, this would be a non-issue.

I see a lot of Veranos and last-gen Regals on the road.  I also see way more last-gen LaCrosses (2010-201?) on the road than the current one ... a lot more.  GM, as a whole, should address its vehicle hierarchy and price points.  Its offerings feel slimmer and more confusing at the same time.

14 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

Buick's price point has risen dramatically.  It's too close to that of Cadillac.

As for the Verano, I guess it depends on the dealership's catchment area and its demographics.  At the dealership I use, people have been asking for the lower priced Buick cars and CUV/SUV products.  Some of them want to only spend about $25 K on a new car.  In wealthier markets, this would be a non-issue.

I see a lot of Veranos and last-gen Regals on the road.  I also see way more last-gen LaCrosses (2010-201?) on the road than the current one ... a lot more.  GM, as a whole, should address its vehicle hierarchy and price points.  Its offerings feel slimmer and more confusing at the same time.

I agree that there should be some significant price distance between Buick and Cadillac.  Cadillac will probably need to get more expensive for that to truly work.  Ideally, Cadillac would raise prices on all its vehicles by about $5000 AND Buick would trim prices by $2000 just so that each can have its own space in the marketplace.

16 hours ago, riviera74 said:

So what would you name the XT4, XT5 and XT6?   How would you most improve the CT6, as well as the CT5 and CT4?

We'll could not find my name list but will take another stab here:

Cars, I would drop the coupe look, go back to having a trunk and make magnetic ride standard on all models with luxury float, sport  and V mode for driving and having the suspension deliver what the owner / driver wanted.

Power trains would be standard on a V6 with V8 option and Blackwood TTV8 as the top engine choice along with EV versions.

Names I would take Cadillac back to them:

SUV/Truck Names:

• Escalade
• Escalade ESV
• Escalade EXT - This needs to come back.
• XT7 = Fleetwood
• XT6 = Palisade
• XT5 = Eminence
• XT4 = End of life, leave this category size to Buick.

Car Names:

• CT6 = Escala
• CT6 Coupe = Eldorado
• CT5 = Ciel
• CT5 Coupe = Calais

No need for the CT4, this is a luxury line and compacts belong to Buick and below.

All models would have Sport and V editions. That is 10 models with 3 trim levels per auto, all options can be bought at any trim level. Improving the CT6 as with all auto's in my lineup above would have real leather as base or a luxury cloth option on top of additional tiers of leather quality, real wood and the glossy black plastic trim would be a thing of the past. Carbon fiber would only be available as an option on V Sport and standard on V editions. Through out would be LED piping to highlight the feet area and beyond so that you could always find things. Massage chairs, recliners in the back of the car, minimum of 24" of leg room so one could stretch out. So much more Cadillac could do if only they would dream again to be the Standard of the World!

On 5/17/2019 at 9:26 PM, riviera74 said:

By that (Escalade) standard, the XT6 might be too small and the CT4 is clearly not on-brand.  Gotta address that.

Ultimately, it all comes down to a unique selling point.  What does Cadillac have that NONE of the other luxury makes have?

SuperCruise. 

17 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Escalade Kindergartner, Escalade Awkward Teen, and Escalade Senior In High School.  That way, the halo effect of the big boy stretches downward.

Cutlass Calais, Cutlass Supreme, Cutlass Cierra, Cutlass Salon...

17 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

Buick's price point has risen dramatically.  It's too close to that of Cadillac.

As for the Verano, I guess it depends on the dealership's catchment area and its demographics.  At the dealership I use, people have been asking for the lower priced Buick cars and CUV/SUV products.  Some of them want to only spend about $25 K on a new car.  In wealthier markets, this would be a non-issue.

I see a lot of Veranos and last-gen Regals on the road.  I also see way more last-gen LaCrosses (2010-201?) on the road than the current one ... a lot more.  GM, as a whole, should address its vehicle hierarchy and price points.  Its offerings feel slimmer and more confusing at the same time.

The market for sedans is drying up.  That's why you see more older regals and lacrosses than you do new ones. 

@dfelt

I am on board with Cadillac returning to names.  As a result of the letters and numbers, I no longer know what's what.

As for the name Calais, it was on a Cadillac product at one time before Oldsmobile picked it up as a type of Cutlass ... and as a stand-alone name plate.

French names and Cadillac go hand in hand.  Cadillac is a French word.  It's even one of the stops on the Montreal Metro's green line!

On 5/21/2019 at 4:36 PM, trinacriabob said:

@dfelt

I am on board with Cadillac returning to names.  As a result of the letters and numbers, I no longer know what's what.

As for the name Calais, it was on a Cadillac product at one time before Oldsmobile picked it up as a type of Cutlass ... and as a stand-alone name plate.

French names and Cadillac go hand in hand.  Cadillac is a French word.  It's even one of the stops on the Montreal Metro's green line!

Its a French sir name.

Cadillac is a street name, and the Metro station is on that street and so the Metro station takes the name of the street its on.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5768388,-73.5466271,3a,39.8y,65.5h,88.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBqKV-qH-HXp0f4krtejSLQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

My 99 soon to be 100 year old auntie lives near this Metro station. In fact her old apartment and her new old age home is a mere 5 minute walk from there.  Further east on Sherbrooke Street, there is a McDonald's. That would be the first McDonald's Iv ever been to waaaay back when I was 5 or 6 years old. A little later, a Burger King opened up. And you guessed it...that would be the first Burger King Ive ever been to.  Both are still there.  A St. Hubert BBQ rotisserie chicken restaurant is a tad closer.  My family would eat there too often enough.

The Olympic Stadium is further WEST on Sherbrooke street. Yes. The Montreal Expos would play there. And yes...I would go see them play often as I lived close by. On Ste Catherine Street. Yes...The same Ste Catherine Street that is the heart of Downtown Montreal.  Pie-IX Metro station is where the Olympic Stadium is. In Between Cadillac Metro  and Pie-IX Metro would be Viau Metro station. And those are the streets that those Metro Stations are on.  The Stadium would be between Pie-IX and Viau...

When clicking on the link, turn the direction towards west, and not even advancing forward on anything and you would see the Olympic Village Appartments.