Cadillac Confirms Flagship, To Be Built In Detroit In 2015

Based on this release of info, that would negate by common sense standards people who rave about BMW and MB having top line auto's that are special and unique in not using common parts across the product line. But I still think we will hear SMK complain about this car.

  On 9/19/2014 at 7:02 PM, dfelt said:

Based on this release of info, that would negate by common sense standards people who rave about BMW and MB having top line auto's that are special and unique in not using common parts across the product line. But I still think we will hear SMK complain about this car.

It could be a Bentley Continental rebadged as a Cadillac and SMK would still complain.

If they make this car with a 3.6 liter V6 and 6 speed automatic for sure I will complain about it.  It better have an 8-speed standard, Lexus had an 8-speed on the LS460 in 2008 I think, Mercedes had that 7-speed all the way back to 2004.  I myself am a bit surprised the 9-speed hasn't taken over but the 2015 CLS has it.  Most 2015 Cadillacs still have a 6-speed, that is yesterdays news.  If the LTS has a plug-in hybrid, a turbo DOHC V8 then we might be getting somewhere.  I am not expecting V12 power, the CTS V-sport engine as the base wouldn't be awful, but they better have more to offer than just that.  Interior better blow away the current Cadillacs.  I still think the bean counters will crush this car, regardless of what De Nysschen wants. 

The LTS will have an 8-speed.... the CTS has one and the Escalade will too.

I've driven the Escalade, I'm not worried about the interior, it's superior to the Range Rover at this point (which I drove the next day)

What engine is the LTS going to have?  Northstar has been dead for 5-6 years.  GM has no v12 to speak of and a v6 would be a joke in this car.  An 8AT is great news, even though I have no idea why 8-speeds are required now.  If the LTS has a Corvette engine tuned for this application, that should be OK.

The Corvette engine would be absolutely fine no matter what SMK says... it is quiet and refined, even in the Vette.

  On 9/20/2014 at 2:58 PM, riviera74 said:

What engine is the LTS going to have?  Northstar has been dead for 5-6 years.  GM has no v12 to speak of and a v6 would be a joke in this car.  An 8AT is great news, even though I have no idea why 8-speeds are required now.  If the LTS has a Corvette engine tuned for this application, that should be OK.

I think a V6 (the TT 3.6) is very likely as the base engine. A V8 of some kind (maybe the Corvette's) will be there as well.

Most consider the S-class the best car in the world and it has been that way for 20-30 years. Cadillac has a big challenge at hand, although I do think Cadillac needs the LTS. Without a flagship you are no better than Acura or Infiniti, the big boys all have $100,000 sedans. But also look at how established models like the 7-series and A8 are getting killed by the S-class. A new entrant to this segment better aim high.

Corvette motor wouldn't surprise me either, but this has to be the quietest car GM has ever made, is the Corvette engine going to offer that level of refinement? Put a 6.2 liter V8 and 8-speed in there and it is the Escalade powertrain, and is that enough for a car that should be priced above the Escalade.

This is gonna be a very exciting debut. I whole-heartedly believe that the price tag will start at least where the CTS ends.. which makes sense. I would imagine that despite it being most likely far above the Lexus LS or BMW 7Series in every dynamic, it will probably follow it's line of pricing with a starting prince around $73K but easily optioned to $140K for a normal model and starting at $140K, but up to $$200K for a completely optioned VSeries.

Keep in mine that the base price is where the sweet spot is as it is the line from which pricing judgement will come. I hope that the Cadillac goes further with the power of choice as the base 7series is a bit weak and anemic for the size. I would think that a new V6 with no less than 350HP would be utilized, but even better would be a simple use of the XTS-VSport's 410HP TTV6 as a base motor

By 2016 the vehicle will be out.. the S-Class will have been studied for two years. Based on Benz's track record that car will change very little by then I suspect. GM.. and Cadillac have both been doing pretty frequent and advantageous updates to their lines almost on a Bi-Annual basis.

Yes. Because the valve train design path has nothing to do with power train refinement.

The Corvette can be very quiet and it's actually tuned with a sporting mind. It has active exhaust to make things louder when you're having fun.

No chance the LTS will get to $140-200,000 even in V-series form.  You need a V12 to get that kind of price, and huge brand cache, neither of which Cadillac has.   Even the 12 cylinder A8 and 7-series are in the $130-140k range.    I could see Cadillac going with a $75-100k price point.  I don't even know what they would do for a V-series, I guess a Z06 engine, but then you are filling your top end Cadillac with Chevy engines and Cadillac is supposed to be better than Chevy.

S-class will get a mid-cycle refresh for the 2017 model year, but also remember they are years ahead of everyone else, Audi, Lexus and BMW have been chasing it since 1991 and haven't caught up yet.  Mercedes is also releasing 10 plug-in hybrid models in the next 3 years, the S-class being the first one.  One complaint I have on the S-class is Mercedes hasn't made a transmission that can handle over 800 lb-ft of torque because the S65 engine makes 811 lb-ft of torque but they limit it to 738 lb-ft because of the transmission.

  On 9/20/2014 at 10:29 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

Yes. Because the valve train design path has nothing to do with power train refinement.

The Corvette can be very quiet and it's actually tuned with a sporting mind. It has active exhaust to make things louder when you're having fun.

People very seldom understand that.. but then again most posters on most forums aren't actual enthusiasts. Most haven't even ever turned a wrench. The current CAR applications of the GM V8s are predominately "Sports Cars" with the VSeries CTS being the exception. In my CTS-V the LSA, even with teh S/C is pretty quiet and very smooth. The C7's LT1 is pretty quiet and ultra smooth when in Eco/Weather and Touring without really stepping into it. It's when the Sport/Track modes are switched on that U hear it

  On 9/20/2014 at 11:01 PM, smk4565 said:

No chance the LTS will get to $140-200,000 even in V-series form.  You need a V12 to get that kind of price, and huge brand cache, neither of which Cadillac has.   Even the 12 cylinder A8 and 7-series are in the $130-140k range.    I could see Cadillac going with a $75-100k price point.  I don't even know what they would do for a V-series, I guess a Z06 engine, but then you are filling your top end Cadillac with Chevy engines and Cadillac is supposed to be better than Chevy.

 

S-class will get a mid-cycle refresh for the 2017 model year, but also remember they are years ahead of everyone else, Audi, Lexus and BMW have been chasing it since 1991 and haven't caught up yet.  Mercedes is also releasing 10 plug-in hybrid models in the next 3 years, the S-class being the first one.  One complaint I have on the S-class is Mercedes hasn't made a transmission that can handle over 800 lb-ft of torque because the S65 engine makes 811 lb-ft of torque but they limit it to 738 lb-ft because of the transmission.

I think it will.. especially if it simply LOOKS like the Elmiraj. Not only that, a V12 is no longer a necessity for that type of cache. If GM wanted to build a V12.. they would. I actually think that they are a waste of time. The V12s currently in production from the European companies are nothing to write home about when compared to a Forced induction V8. Furthermore no engine a GM is a CHEVY engine.. they are GM engines. Get it thru you head.

Lastly.. so what the S-Class gets a refresh.. Cadillac is upgrading vehicles almost on a yearly basis. I'm pretty confident, altho U, rooting always for the Europeans are not, that GM can manage keeping up with Benz should they need to. Your premise that Benz is "years ahead of everyone else" is ridiculous. Those brands haven't even really tried to overtake it with the product they have put out. Audi may be the exception.. but, BMW and Lexus build "different" types of Flagships than the S-Class. Not to mention of all those brands, damaged or not, Cadillac is in actuality the only brand name able to truly reflect on a LUXURY heritage.

Corvette Z06 LT4 engines are hand built.... Exactly the level of cache a Cadillac would need.

Lexus was founded basically to build a car like the S-class but at a lower cost.  Lexus sold their cars cheaper than the Germans and they had better refinement and quality than what Lincoln or Cadillac had, so it was only a matter of time before they took sales away from both.   But 25 years later and the LS460 still sells at a discount to the German competition, they were never able to elevate the price up. 

Bentley, Rolls, Aston Martin, Audi, BMW, Mercedes all have a 12 cylinder sedan, so I do think you need one for that cache level.  The Panamera has a turbo V8 and brings a big price, but Porsche never needed a big engine to charge crazy money.  I don't think the Quattroporte, LS460 or XJ have the status level of the big boys.  I don't think Cadillac should make a V12 for this car though, they need to see if they can sell V8s first, and GM doesn't really have any economies of scale for a V12 because there isn't much else to use it in.

They will have to charge more for the LTS than they do for the ELR, GM/Cadillac isn't afraid to throw out a high price, if they make it great, then at $80,000 they may find enough buyers, I don't think they can at $100,000.  Cadillac's current customer base does not buy sedans that expensive, the DTS, STS, XTS, CTS all have been priced in the $45-60,000 range for 15 years.  That group isn't going to magically spend double on their next car, so now you need to conquest the establishment.  Tough task, it is worth trying, but it won't be easy.

There should also be sedan, coupe and convertible versions of this car.

^^^ That's the thing that Cadillac is obviously doing. At a starting price of $46K and a higher ATP of $55K for the CTS without a HI-PO model, and the similar sized XTS selling for slightly higher, I'd say that the customer base that Cadillac has stewed for the past 15 years is either adjusting or being joined by conquests. Again.. Cadillac sales are not down because of their products not being taken seriously.. They are down because they lack enough entries in the hottest segment of CUV, lack variations on vehicles that needed variations a year after debut, and lack of aggressive incentives and marketing of the Germans. 

The LX still sells at a price less than the Germans because Lexus, ultimately does not have the heritage that Benz has or the Sporting edge of BMW, but then again.. the Lexus LS actually is based priced above the 740i.. and almost exactly the same as the A8 as is the Jag Xj. Cadillac entering the fray will have no problem selling a comparable car with a similar price. I would not suggest that the MSRP should be the same as the inflated S-Class price, but starting in the $70Ks is completely doable. A Platinum and VSeries certainly will command base prices in the $115K price but easily optioned out if there are coupes and convrts available such as indicated by the Ciel

Cadillac sedan sales are down 20% this year.  Lack of crossovers doesn't effect that the CTS and ATS sales have gone down.   The CTS sales are down because they raised the price.  The XTS is getting the generations of Deville/DTS buyer that were fine with paying $50k for a big Cadillac, that group of buyers is dying off, so that explains why XTS sales have declined.  I have doubts that the current Cadillac customer base will pay north of $80k for a sedan, the track record for high end Cadillacs is not good, Allante, XLR and ELR were all busts.  Given that, I think they will need to conquest Lexus or German car buyers, so this LTS better be amazing enough to steal buyers.

  On 9/21/2014 at 4:12 PM, smk4565 said:

Cadillac sedan sales are down 20% this year.  Lack of crossovers doesn't effect that the CTS and ATS sales have gone down.   The CTS sales are down because they raised the price.  The XTS is getting the generations of Deville/DTS buyer that were fine with paying $50k for a big Cadillac, that group of buyers is dying off, so that explains why XTS sales have declined.  I have doubts that the current Cadillac customer base will pay north of $80k for a sedan, the track record for high end Cadillacs is not good, Allante, XLR and ELR were all busts.  Given that, I think they will need to conquest Lexus or German car buyers, so this LTS better be amazing enough to steal buyers.

No offense.. or take offense I really don't care, but that sounds stupid. The DTS buyer is not dying out any faster than the S-Class buyer. Different income does escape the fact that the same age bout these cars. 

Second.. the idea that the sales of the CTS are down has more to do with the NON-FIRE Sale incentives that were on them last year and the fact that the CTS COUPE, which accounted for more than 30% of the sales is unavailable for the 2014 model.. Oh. and no NEW VSeries. Furthermore in reality CTS sales are down a total of 1363 as of Aug sales numbers. That's a 170 cars per month.

ATS??? Why would I buy one if I didn't want a Sedan? Come on smart guy.. tell me? What if I wanted a Coupe? Guess I gotta go get a C-Class or a 4series.. maybe an A5? What if I want a convert? Hopefully U get the point.

People buy Escalades by the boat load for well over $80K. My VCoupe, 2 years ago, cost almost $75K. 

Lastly, the Allante and XLR were niche products that failed because GM killed them after they didn't conquer, immediately, the competition without them ever really offering.. YUP.. U guessed it.. variations. The XLR lived on a Corvette C5 platform with a decent engine at launch, but 2 years later... the C6 debuted with more power.. 3 years after that.. they gave the base Corvette the LS3 with almost exactly the same power as the XLR-V (7hp less than the 4.4L S/C) and the Corvette Z06 had a effin 500HP LS7, that was handbuilt, Cadillac-Style. The XLR dies because of neglect. 

The ELR.. quite frankly as beautiful as it is should have not been an EV only model. In fact it should have been a Cadillac coupe with a 2.0LTurbo and maybe a more powerful one as well. As it is.. its niche.. and following a path that the Lexus HS went. The $75K price tag wouldn't have sold if it were even a Benz or BMW with the performance numbers it has. It looks like it would tear the sides off most cars, it doesn't. Change driveline.. call it BLC, offer a sunroof for GODSAKE and drop price to $55K. SOLD OUT!!! 

It is Cadillac's own fault they lack body styles.  It it their own fault they don't have a diesel ATS and CTS or a hybrid SRX.  It is their own fault it takes them years to get a V-series out.  I don't think GM has the money to spend on Cadillac to build multiple body styles and 4-5 engine choices per car including hybrids and diesels.  This is why I think the LTS will ultimately fall short, they will try to do it on a limited budget.

Unless GM spends more money on Cadillac they will never catch up.  Audi plans to spend $28 billion on R&D between now and 2020 to expand their lineup.  GM's entire R&D budget is about $7 billion a year, so in 6 years, that is $42 billion.  Even if they up it to $45 billion for inflation over the next 6 years, do we think Cadillac will get 28 out of 45 of that budget.  It is better than it was, at least GM doesn't have to spend money on Pontiac or Saturn, but still Cadillac fights with a limited budget and limited product line up.

  On 9/20/2014 at 10:09 PM, smk4565 said:

Most consider the S-class the best car in the world and it has been that way for 20-30 years. Cadillac has a big challenge at hand, although I do think Cadillac needs the LTS. Without a flagship you are no better than Acura or Infiniti, the big boys all have $100,000 sedans. But also look at how established models like the 7-series and A8 are getting killed by the S-class. A new entrant to this segment better aim high.

Corvette motor wouldn't surprise me either, but this has to be the quietest car GM has ever made, is the Corvette engine going to offer that level of refinement? Put a 6.2 liter V8 and 8-speed in there and it is the Escalade powertrain, and is that enough for a car that should be priced above the Escalade.

Escalade ESV Platinum fully loaded hit 100K with the 6.2L V8 and 8AT. So having the same powertrain in the LTS would be fine and totally acceptable.

  On 9/21/2014 at 9:16 PM, smk4565 said:

It is Cadillac's own fault they lack body styles.  It it their own fault they don't have a diesel ATS and CTS or a hybrid SRX.  It is their own fault it takes them years to get a V-series out.  I don't think GM has the money to spend on Cadillac to build multiple body styles and 4-5 engine choices per car including hybrids and diesels.  This is why I think the LTS will ultimately fall short, they will try to do it on a limited budget.

 

Unless GM spends more money on Cadillac they will never catch up.  Audi plans to spend $28 billion on R&D between now and 2020 to expand their lineup.  GM's entire R&D budget is about $7 billion a year, so in 6 years, that is $42 billion.  Even if they up it to $45 billion for inflation over the next 6 years, do we think Cadillac will get 28 out of 45 of that budget.  It is better than it was, at least GM doesn't have to spend money on Pontiac or Saturn, but still Cadillac fights with a limited budget and limited product line up.

 

 

U think the "LTS" will fall short because it's not European.. its American.. and U hate America it seems

GM's annual R&D budget in 2011.. 2011.. 2011.. was $8.1 Billion. VW.. for 2011... 2011 was $7.7 B. That included Audi. And even more to the point is that your numbers.. as always I suspect.. show favor to the Europeans. This time in BUDGETS. So from 2014 to 2020.. VW will spend $4.6 B on Audi per year. GM will spend 6 X $8.B (on the low side using 2011 numbers) on R&D= $48 Billion. I could see GM Premium vehicles getting a nice proportion of that budget. Also counter to whatever U are smoking is telling U.. GM and VW are very very much similar to each other. In fact.. if GM gets a better handle on it's premium operations it will be capable of profits that could exceed VW Group in terms of NET.

BTW, what was your point in bringing up Pontiac and Saturn? They were divisional names that did not actually need R&D budgets because they.. like Buick to Chevy/Opel were brands that received tech etc from the larger whole. They were marketing names. Even the older of those two, Pontiac, hadn't had its own engineering since the 70s

  On 9/21/2014 at 9:40 PM, dfelt said:

 

  On 9/20/2014 at 10:09 PM, smk4565 said:

Most consider the S-class the best car in the world and it has been that way for 20-30 years. Cadillac has a big challenge at hand, although I do think Cadillac needs the LTS. Without a flagship you are no better than Acura or Infiniti, the big boys all have $100,000 sedans. But also look at how established models like the 7-series and A8 are getting killed by the S-class. A new entrant to this segment better aim high.

Corvette motor wouldn't surprise me either, but this has to be the quietest car GM has ever made, is the Corvette engine going to offer that level of refinement? Put a 6.2 liter V8 and 8-speed in there and it is the Escalade powertrain, and is that enough for a car that should be priced above the Escalade.

Escalade ESV Platinum fully loaded hit 100K with the 6.2L V8 and 8AT. So having the same powertrain in the LTS would be fine and totally acceptable.

 

People pay more for SUVs.  Well American SUVs anyway vs American sedans.  Chevy can sell a $65k Tahoe, doesn't mean they can sell a $65k luxury sedan.  I mean we will see, I just suspect if Cadillac takes the Escalade powertrain and puts it in a $100,000 sedan no one is going to buy it.  The Hyundai Equus has a 425 hp V8 and an 8-speed and they sell about 200 a month at $60k.  I would assume though that a Cadillac would have more features and a much better interior than the Equus though.

I think even the LT-1 would be a good mid-range V8 for the LTS.... look at the possibilities in the powertrain lineup.

5.3 V8 - 360 hp

6.2 V8 - 460 hp (a Ward's 10-Best engine)

3.6 TT V6 - 420 hp

6.2 V8 S/C - 650 hp

Even just putting turbos on the 5.3 would be nice.

No 5.3 V8.   A SIlverado engine in an S-class competitor? 

3.6TT as the base is acceptable.   They should make a 4.0 DOHC TT V8 with a plug in hybrid system and 10 speed automatic for the primary engine.  They gotta step up.  Or else build the entire body of carbon fiber to keep weight under 4,000 lbs, then you don't really need 500+ hp, they could shoot for 400 hp and 30 mpg.

s-class is nearly 5000 lbs (4600+), no competitor "needs" to be 3995 lbs. The tech required at this level precludes this.

Hm-mmm….. wasn't the s-class --when it was reskinned for 2014-- missing BOTH the hybrid AND the diesel?

You have to go back to 2013 to find the S300 (350), and it was rated at only 240 HP. I don't get the whole 'shining car on the hill' mentality WRT the s; it's unwarranted.

-- -- --

Here's the bottom line for how you break into a segment. The self-proclaimed leader of the segment, the s-class, offers you this generic cup of vanilla : 

Cadillac has already shown designs as striking as this :

If they can bring 7/10ths of the above to the showroom, that's a sharp elbow into the segment, without any of the pressures to move thousands per months to boot. 

But the S-class had the AMG models out the first model year, the coupe is here and the plug in hybrid S-class goes on sale in the spring. I hope they bring a diesel-hybrid here, they have it in Europe.

If Cadillac does the one body style 2 engines off the shelf strategy, it is a repeat of the ATS. And the argument of why the 3-series outsells the ATS by so much is the ATS has no coupe, convertible, diesel or V-series.

To your common point WRT Cadillac tho- all the models/bodystyles were NOT available at launch with the '14 s-class. We're waiting 2 model years now for the hybrid to come back - an engine that was already offered in the s-class in '13. There's only been 1 body style for the s-class until just this minute, too; where is the s-class convertible?

How is this 'sloppy, failure-ridden approach' OK for MB again??

To SMK, when Mercedes (Audi, BMW) does it's a miracle, when GM does it's a rape. (It rhymes in Hindi)

  On 9/22/2014 at 1:10 PM, balthazar said:

To your common point WRT Cadillac tho- all the models/bodystyles were NOT available at launch with the '14 s-class. We're waiting 2 model years now for the hybrid to come back - an engine that was already offered in the s-class in '13. There's only been 1 body style for the s-class until just this minute, too; where is the s-class convertible?

How is this 'sloppy, failure-ridden approach' OK for MB again??

Waiting a model year later for a coupe is pretty standard stuff.  My complaint about the ATS is it is in model year 3 and still no V-series.  I don't expect a top range Eldorado coupe launched with the LTS sedan, but the next model year it should be there.  Cadillac also needs more than a 400 hp V8 and an 8 speed, the others have had that for 5 years already, this car is still 2 years away.  Cadillac has to steal buyers away, so they have to wow them somehow, and offer something new.

The S-class hybrid isn't using the old system, that is being scrapped.  The S-class plug in can go 20 miles on electric, and has a 3.0 twin turbo V6 with electric motor, 436 hp and 479 lb-ft total output.  There will be 10 plug-in hybrid Mercedes by 2017 when the LTS goes on sale.  Cadillac should plan one, and not a POS like the ELR, put a plug-in system with a Corvette engine or something for wow factor.

  On 9/22/2014 at 2:28 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

I think even the LT-1 would be a good mid-range V8 for the LTS.... look at the possibilities in the powertrain lineup.

 

5.3 V8 - 360 hp

6.2 V8 - 460 hp (a Ward's 10-Best engine)

3.6 TT V6 - 420 hp

6.2 V8 S/C - 650 hp

 

Even just putting turbos on the 5.3 would be nice.

I like how U think, but I think there is a bit of overkill. Cadillac, trying to be a global player needs smaller displacement with big power for the mass sales. The lowest I could see them going is a 3.0L TT to achieve that 360HP mark. 

Cadillac can and does offer different power trains in different markets. If china wants an lts with a 2.0T, let 'em

  On 9/23/2014 at 2:55 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

Cadillac can and does offer different power trains in different markets. If china wants an lts with a 2.0T, let 'em

Cadillac has very thin powertrain choices when compared to their competitors; they need to work on that really fast or they risk thet what works in the US doesn't work in Europe or China. They also need uniqueness/distinction, hence the new V8 talk.

Cadillac could probably do just fine with the following Engine line:

2.8L 4cyl -  200 hp Duramax Diesel

3.6 V6 - 301 HP

3.6 TT V6 - 420 hp

6.2 V8 - 460 hp

6.2 V8 S/C - 650 hp

need a more powerful diesel option

V6 Duramax Diesel would be great with 300HP and about 450 lbs of torque.

  On 9/23/2014 at 3:18 PM, dfelt said:

V6 Duramax Diesel would be great with 300HP and about 450 lbs of torque.

As much as I love the Duramax Diesel engines... I think we might want to leave that name for the trucks.

If Cadillac is going to continue with the Alpha names, then just call it a CTS-D and don't name the engine itself.

I like the way you think Drew!

And they will call it CT6.  What a weak name.  People will probably confuse it with CTS and think it is like a $50k car, then realize what it costs and think no thank you.  Good to see the de Nysschen's philosophy of crazy naming schemes over product is alive and well at Cadillac, since it worked so well to revive Infiniti.

Small block has no business being in a Cadillac mainstream model and I imagine Juergen or whatever would agree.

Base should be 3.6tt and then develope some other unique motors. What is the point of making and keeping Cadillac unique and splitting off and going to NY if your gonna put a Chevy motor in it?

The CT 6 motor base for the inexpensive models a 3.6tt is the way to go. The other motors should be brand new and unrelated to other GM products.

yeah, because a butter smooth, nicely powerful, and very efficient V8 has no business in a Cadillac.

Watch for my upcoming Suburban review.

Awesome, I love me some Suburban in any form, Chevy, GMC and Especially Cadillac!

De Nysschen did say something about a new engine family solely for Cadillac and not to be shared with other brands. So that may come to be and Cadillac may have twin turbo V6 and V8s that don't even exist yet.

I think the CT6 will launch with an off the shelf engine though, probably by the time they redo the CTS or ATS there will be a new engine.