2022 Cadillac CT4 and CT5 Blackwing Bring A Performance Edge

42 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

After you JUST mentioned the sizes of the CT5, 5 Series and E Class are near identical, but yeah they aren't competitive because the price point, that's ludicrous.

Yeah, because the antiquated chassis and cheap interior in the Dodge Charger is the same build quality as a Cadillac CT5. LMFAO!! 

 

The CT5-V and the Sonata have the same dimensions, doesn't mean they are competitors.   Because, price point.  Cadillac has no E-class competitor, neither do Acura or Infiniti or Lexus since killing the GS, although the LS500 is S-class size for E450 money, so maybe that competes.

CT5 is nicer than a Charger, Dodge interiors are terrible, but my point was just because something has horsepower and size of an M5, doesn't mean it competes with an M5.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The CT5-V and the Sonata have the same dimensions, doesn't mean they are competitors.   Because, price point.  Cadillac has no E-class competitor, neither do Acura or Infiniti or Lexus since killing the GS, although the LS500 is S-class size for E450 money, so maybe that competes.

CT5 is nicer than a Charger, Dodge interiors are terrible, but my point was just because something has horsepower and size of an M5, doesn't mean it competes with an M5.

Your points are horrible as usual. Because, price point, is right. We aren't talking about a $350k Rolls Royce we're talking about the same class of luxury cars within the usual delta price range, you brought up the cheap Econbox cars and a muscle car that only has the V8 in common.

Right, it's not just about horsepower and size it's also about fit and finish and quality of all materials especially inside...like the luxury class interiors that Cadillac, BMW and MB have that a Dodge, Kia or Hyundai DO NOT have. 

6 hours ago, USA-1 said:

Your points are horrible as usual. Because, price point, is right. We aren't talking about a $350k Rolls Royce we're talking about the same class of luxury cars within the usual delta price range, you brought up the cheap Econbox cars and a muscle car that only has the V8 in common.

Right, it's not just about horsepower and size it's also about fit and finish and quality of all materials especially inside...like the luxury class interiors that Cadillac, BMW and MB have that a Dodge, Kia or Hyundai DO NOT have. 

The CT5 interior is entry-lux, much like a CLA or Acura TLX.  CT5 isn’t an E-class competitor.

 And I am not saying Cadillac needs an E or S class competitor, sedan sales are shrinking and make more sense to make a mid-size $37k sedan like a Lexus ES or Acura TLX and go where you can get more volume and have $400 a month lease deals.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The CT5 interior is entry-lux, much like a CLA or Acura TLX.  CT5 isn’t an E-class competitor.

 

This article is about the CT4-V and CT5-V Blackwing cars that are very well equipped, loaded in fact, with real carbon fiber inside and out and now you've flipped it again by talking about the base model CT5. Here's a refresher if this article wasn't enough.  https://www.cadillac.com/future-vehicles/ct5-v-blackwing

The CT5 you say you sat in was probably a base model Luxury trim, often times the auto shows only have what the local dealer has available at the time. The CT4 and CT5 I sat in at the my local auto show were the well equipped Premium Luxury trim, not the base or high end Sport or V Series trims. The CT5 I've driven was a loaded V Series.

Similar to this $67k example...definitely an E Class competitor. 

CT5-V Blackwing interior is on par with an A4 or 3-series, or an Acura/Lincoln product.      Cadillac interiors look like a fancier Chevy in the way Acura interiors look like a fancier Honda, nothing special.

^ I don’t see that. Interesting viewpoint tho.

Delusional.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

^ I don’t see that. Interesting viewpoint tho.

So GM made a car as luxurious as an E63 or M5 but decided to sell it at a $40k discount just because they are nice guys?  They would be idiots to leave money on the table and the one thing GM excels at is bean counting.  

What's Mercedes doing leaving $110 grand "on the table" when they claim the Maybach S650 "competes" with the Rolls Royce Ghost ($315K)?? Being "nice" there, or just "bean counting"?

Do those models in fact NOT compete because of sticker?
 

Do tell.

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So GM made a car as luxurious as an E63 or M5 but decided to sell it at a $40k discount just because they are nice guys?  They would be idiots to leave money on the table and the one thing GM excels at is bean counting.  

First, as @Drew Dowdellhas stated, it's not quite as large or roomy as those vehicles. Also, if they're built here and not imported, there are less costs associated allowing them to charge less. I know not 40k less, but less, is less. 

CT5 has a smidge more headroom, and a full inch more legroom up front than a 5-series. Exterior is nearly identical [WB diff: 1.1", OL diff : 2.0"]. BMW has 2 CF more trunk volume and 1.7" more shoulder room. IMO, and for all intents & purposes- they're interchangeable, size-wise. Without question they're in the same size class.

54 minutes ago, balthazar said:

What's Mercedes doing leaving $110 grand "on the table" when they claim the Maybach S650 "competes" with the Rolls Royce Ghost ($315K)?? Being "nice" there, or just "bean counting"?

Do those models in fact NOT compete because of sticker?
 

Do tell.

Rolls-Royce is out of Mercedes league.  Maybach trim cars are meant to bridge the gap between a $115k GLS or S-class and a $350,000 Ghost or $500k Phantom.   There was like a $150k price gap between the old S600 and a Ghost with only the Bentley Flying Spur sitting there, easiest decision ever to go into a segment with only 1 competitor.

12 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Numbers lie... even Cadillac numbers.  The CT5 does not feel as roomy inside as a 5-series. 

All of this aside here's what Cadillac is doing.

I can get into a CT5-V (not Blackwing) for $47,695. With that I get a 350 HP V6 and a nice leather interior while over at Benz I'm stuck in a C300 with plastic seats, measly 255hp turbo 4 for the same price.

That is a very easy decision to make. 

You can get leather on a C300 for $47,695, you have about $6k of options to work with, that can be one of them.  Although MB-Tex might be the most durable material on the planet.

I agree with Cadillac’s strategy, V6 power and E-class size for 4-cylinder C-class money.  But the C-Class I am sure easily outsells the CT5.  As do 3-series and Tesla Model 3, all same price point.  So it must not be that easy for consumers to buy a Cadillac.

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

You can get leather on a C300 for $47,695, you have about $6k of options to work with, that can be one of them.  Although MB-Tex might be the most durable material on the planet.

I think the point is that you're not getting comparable performance because you can't get a C43 for that money. You'd still get a turbo 4 for 50k. 

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I agree with Cadillac’s strategy, V6 power and E-class size for 4-cylinder C-class money.  But the C-Class I am sure easily outsells the CT5.  As do 3-series and Tesla Model 3, all same price point.  So it must not be that easy for consumers to buy a Cadillac.

While I agree it will continue to outsell them, the sample size is less than a year thus far. This isn't a question of sale. The point is you get more at Cadillac, regardless of what actually sells. 

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I think the point is that you're not getting comparable performance because you can't get a C43 for that money. You'd still get a turbo 4 for 50k. 

 

While I agree it will continue to outsell them, the sample size is less than a year thus far. This isn't a question of sale. The point is you get more at Cadillac, regardless of what actually sells. 

You get more size and more horsepower, but the Germans build good cars, and you can get an ultra reliable Lexus ES350 for CT5 money and to some reliability is all they care about. Lots of options in this segment.  

I saw on Autoline Cadillac got 1,000 reservations for these 2 cars so they are generating some demand out of the gate.  But I suspect a lot of dealers want one in to get markup on the first ones and a year from now demand will drop.
 

Initial run I read was 250 units each, so they already got double the initial run in what; 2-3 days?
High demand across the enthusiast segment for V-Series Cadillacs.
I'm sure there will be at least a 2nd run. 

55 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Numbers lie... even Cadillac numbers.  The CT5 does not feel as roomy inside as a 5-series.

Respectfully, numbers don't lie (tho they can potentially be intentionally manipulated). 'Feels' is subjective, measurements are by nature objective. However, different people will process interior spaces differently.

I still haven't worked past OEMs giving a full-width front seat hip room measurement when there's a fat console in every car sold now.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Rolls-Royce is out of Mercedes league.  Maybach trim cars are meant to bridge the gap between a $115k GLS or S-class and a $350,000 Ghost or $500k Phantom.   There was like a $150k price gap between the old S600 and a Ghost with only the Bentley Flying Spur sitting there, easiest decision ever to go into a segment with only 1 competitor.

So when they (when they were just “Maybach”) were directly trying to complete with RR ten years ago while being 100K cheaper, that was okay? Seriously crazy double standards you are showing here and thats saying something.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Initial run I read was 250 units each, so they already got double the initial run in what; 2-3 days?
High demand across the enthusiast segment for V-Series Cadillacs.
I'm sure there will be at least a 2nd run. 

Respectfully, numbers don't lie (tho they can potentially be intentionally manipulated). 'Feels' is subjective, measurements are by nature objective. However, different people will process interior spaces differently.

I still haven't worked past OEMs giving a full-width front seat hip room measurement when there's a fat console in every car sold now.

@mkaresh has done the research on this. There is no industry standard for measuring interior room. Ford manipulated theirs to the point that he had to just automatically subtract 2 inches from leg room measurements to get something accurate. 

I'm not aware of who mkaresh is [Edit: I see he hasn't stopped in since 2016- I remember now], but there's been an SAE standard for interior dimensions since at least 1959. I have the full interior dimensions for Buick & Pontiac for '59 (and '64, 65 and '69 Firebird), and it has monikers/codes for each dimension, and the intro states it is S.A.E. definitions (plus American Manufacturers Association additions).

'59 Catalina L4 : leg room - front- ball of foot to top of seat to seat back, 15" line : 44.8".

Now, whether it's policed or verified is another matter.

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

So when they (when they were just “Maybach”) were directly trying to complete with RR ten years ago while being 100K cheaper, that was okay? Seriously crazy double standards you are showing here and thats saying something.

2008 Maybach 57: $340,500

2008 Maybach 62: $431,000

2008 Maybach 62S Landaulet: $1,350,000

2008 Rolls-Royce Phantom: $403,000

2005 Rolls-Royce Phantom: $328,750

2005 Maybach 57:  $325,000

2005 Maybach 62: $375,000

saabkyle04 on YouTube reviewed a 2011 Maybach 62S with a $519,000 sticker.  Maybach competed directly with Rolls-Royce, and  had more powerful, faster cars.  There just isn't enough market in $500k sedans to put money there.   Rolls-Royce averages about 4,000 cars a year globally, their best year was 5,000 in 2019.  I think Mercedes can let them have their $5k sales and put resources elsewhere.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

However, different people will process interior spaces differently.

Im not sure, Im taking a WILD guess here, but @David could attest to that statement. 

42 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 Maybach competed directly with Rolls-Royce, and  had more powerful, faster cars.

Irrelevant because Rolls Royce is known to advertise their horsepower, torque and performance figures as 'adequate' or 'more than adequate'.   In other words, Rolls Royce does not waste their time computing such mundane stuff and their owners dont care for such vulgarity.  As long as they have 'adequate'  or 'more than adequate'  power to move them along swiftly, in comfort and isolation.  And Rolls Royce definitely does that. And that is all that matters...   And it showed throughout history. Maybach was a flop...SEVERAL times in history,  while Royce Royce never looked back once they took over Bentley so early at the turn of the last century until today.  

Serious question. 

Do these Blackwing Vs have the new newton/meter badging in the back too like the rest of the Cadillac line-up?

 I wouldnt like that if they did. 

16 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Serious question. 

Do these Blackwing Vs have the new newton/meter badging in the back too like the rest of the Cadillac line-up?

 I wouldnt like that if they did. 

They need to throw that newton meter badging away.  

^ At least it means something.

Just now, balthazar

I'm not aware of who mkaresh is [Edit: I see he hasn't stopped in since 2016- I remember now], but there's been an SAE standard for interior dimensions since at least 1959. I have the full interior dimensions for Buick & Pontiac for '59 (and '64, 65 and '69 Firebird), and it has monikers/codes for each dimension, and the intro states it is S.A.E. definitions (plus American Manufacturers Association additions).

'59 Catalina L4 : leg room - front- ball of foot to top of seat to seat back, 15" line : 44.8".

Now, whether it's policed or verified is another matter.

Nearly no one uses the SAE interior measurements

20 hours ago, USA-1 said:

This article is about the CT4-V and CT5-V Blackwing cars that are very well equipped, loaded in fact, with real carbon fiber inside and out and now you've flipped it again by talking about the base model CT5. Here's a refresher if this article wasn't enough.  https://www.cadillac.com/future-vehicles/ct5-v-blackwing

The CT5 you say you sat in was probably a base model Luxury trim, often times the auto shows only have what the local dealer has available at the time. The CT4 and CT5 I sat in at the my local auto show were the well equipped Premium Luxury trim, not the base or high end Sport or V Series trims. The CT5 I've driven was a loaded V Series.

Similar to this $67k example...definitely an E Class competitor. 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

You get more size and more horsepower, but the Germans build good cars, and you can get an ultra reliable Lexus ES350 for CT5 money and to some reliability is all they care about. Lots of options in this segment.

Did you just unintentionally say Mercedes and BMW aren't reliable, by not listing them? There's nothing "bad" about the Cadillac's outside of their brand image. 

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Initial run I read was 250 units each, so they already got double the initial run in what; 2-3 days?
High demand across the enthusiast segment for V-Series Cadillacs.
I'm sure there will be at least a 2nd run. 

I thought this was just for like first 250 of each. 

"Just a couple of days ago, when the 2022 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing and CT5-V Blackwing were revealed, Cadillac announced it would start taking reservations for the cars. More specifically, it was taking reservations for the first 250 of each model. They went quite quickly, in just minutes according to a Cadillac representative. Apparently the more powerful CT5-V Blackwing sold out first, closely followed by the CT4-V version.

But don't worry, because more of each are on the way. The Cadillac representative said that anyone wanting to reserve one who missed the initial 500 will be put on a wait list and contacted by their local dealer as more orders are available. Not only that, but the additional order slots should open up before production and initial deliveries of the cars begins this summer. So you haven't missed out on a 2022 model yet."

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/02/03/2022-cadillac-ct5v-ct4v-blackwing-first-run-sold-out/

These sport sedans are just so tight. 

18 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Numbers lie... even Cadillac numbers.  The CT5 does not feel as roomy inside as a 5-series. 

All of this aside here's what Cadillac is doing.

I can get into a CT5-V (not Blackwing) for $47,695. With that I get a 350 HP V6 and a nice leather interior while over at Benz I'm stuck in a C300 with plastic seats, measly 255hp turbo 4 for the same price.

That is a very easy decision to make. 

Gotta love that $50k Benz Pleather!

19 hours ago, balthazar said:

Respectfully, numbers don't lie (tho they can potentially be intentionally manipulated). 'Feels' is subjective, measurements are by nature objective. However, different people will process interior spaces differently.

I would totally agree that numbers do not lie, just different body types will clarify if that works or not for said person. Example is myself with long legs and arms compared to my body core. As such, seats always have to go all the way back and this is usually where an auto will fail cause if no one can sit behind me, the interior numbers are a failure to me on just how much room they have.

I can attest that a CT4 & CT5 can fit me, though no comfortably and NO ONE can sit behind me. So why I love speed and aggressive driving, these cars while awesome and way better IMHO over German and Asian cars in the same class, would never be on my buy list since I cannot get my family in them.

Another issue with the numbers is when you have a person like my daughter, she is 5'8" tall, but long body, shorter legs and arms. As such, she pulls seats up close to the steering wheel to reach everything and usually will hit her head on the roof in cars compared to SUVs. As such, she loves her Durango, hates her friends cars and always offers to drive so she is comfy.

16 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Serious question. 

Do these Blackwing Vs have the new newton/meter badging in the back too like the rest of the Cadillac line-up?

 I wouldnt like that if they did. 

Yes, all Cadillacs have it which I believe is WRONG for ICE cars, they should keep the liter size and leave the newton/meter badging to the EVs.

Clarification, the current V's have it on the lot when I was there at my dealership, the marketing images shown on the web site for the Blackwings I have not seen it yet. Looking around to see if what kind of marking there is.

Nothing seems to indicate the power nor have I found anything that says this is a Blackwing, just the V badging. I will say the two tone interior looks good. Anyone that says this is not luxury compared to German or Asian competing products needs to step back from the Koolaid!

IMHO, I still think this is a MISTAKE on how they finished this section on the car.

^ That’s the Blackwing.

21 minutes ago, David said:

 

Those seats look lovely! 

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Those seats look lovely! 

That they do....maybe the aftermarket make chrome scoops to put over the black C-pillar trim or simulated louvers.

5 hours ago, David said:

 

Yes, all Cadillacs have it which I believe is WRONG for ICE cars, they should keep the liter size and leave the newton/meter badging to the EVs.

Clarification, the current V's have it on the lot when I was there at my dealership, the marketing images shown on the web site for the Blackwings I have not seen it yet. Looking around to see if what kind of marking there is.

I actually like the idea for classifying the differing trim levels with the newton/meter badging.  Even for ICE. 

Id prefer if they didnt do that with the V and Blackwing cars (which I think Cadillac does NOT put the newton/meter badge) BECAUSE the "V" logo makes a statement as is and the newton/meter badging is not needed in my eyes.

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ That’s the Blackwing.

David posed that he 'didn't see anything saying it was the CT5-V Blackwing', I was merely confirming... but now I see what you guys were seeing I was saying. ? ?

5 hours ago, David said:

Nothing seems to indicate the power nor have I found anything that says this is a Blackwing, just the V badging. I will say the two tone interior looks good. Anyone that says this is not luxury compared to German or Asian competing products needs to step back from the Koolaid!

 

 

I love those seats! The Recaros that came on the second gen CTS were sublime! All they have to do is match that and they're perfect. 

Not normally a big fan of the Caddy sedans....but my goodness do I like these! I‘D rock either one of those at this point.......

The CT5 Blackwing options list is $40k long because you can run one for these to $125k which seems like a lot.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The CT5 Blackwing options list is $40k long because you can run one for these to $125k which seems like a lot.

Where are you getting this mythical options list since they have not released anything other than saying the CT5-V Blackwing will start at $84,990 per the news release. It seems it will have few options not an ala-cart long list based on their new release.

V-Series Blackwing: Ultimate Track Capability, Zero Compromise (gm.com)

Based on this second news release this is the following only interior options that will be available. Just 2 option packages and that is it!

V-Series Blackwing: Designed to Perform (gm.com)

If ya do not believe me check out the full Cadillac News release page.

News (gm.com)

^ I don't think those are all the options, as some Blackwings have been shown with 'naked' carbon fibre trim, and others with it body color. 

I saw that general pricing info posted elsewhere, sourced from Cadillac Society.
Stated a fully-loaded CT4-V Blackwing would be $84,875, and the same spec for a CT5-V Blackwing would be $122,985. That's checking every option box... but that may possibly be combining thing where not possible or superseded from the V to the V Blackwing.

Blackwing option plus all available options raises a CT4-V starting price by $23,450, and the CT5-V by $51,530. 

1 hour ago, David said:

Where are you getting this mythical options list since they have not released anything other than saying the CT5-V Blackwing will start at $84,990 per the news release. It seems it will have few options not an ala-cart long list based on their new release.

V-Series Blackwing: Ultimate Track Capability, Zero Compromise (gm.com)

Based on this second news release this is the following only interior options that will be available. Just 2 option packages and that is it!

V-Series Blackwing: Designed to Perform (gm.com)

If ya do not believe me check out the full Cadillac News release page.

News (gm.com)

I saw a news article on motor1 that said it was like $125k loaded, that is why I wondered what the options were.  Carbon brakes are probably $9k  but where is the other $30k going? 

Also why do you have to get level 3 to get the tan seats?  Why can't you pick seat color separate of trim level or option package?

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I saw a news article on motor1 that said it was like $125k loaded, that is why I wondered what the options were.  Carbon brakes are probably $9k  but where is the other $30k going? 

Also why do you have to get level 3 to get the tan seats?  Why can't you pick seat color separate of trim level or option package?

You do get that it still comes in miles cheaper than the German competition, especially when said competition prices also shoot through the roof when loaded? Hell, I’m looking at the build price for the E63 AMG and why in the hell does it cost $550 extra for soft close doors? What kind of BS is that from the supposed luxury standard of the world? Or how about $50 for two rear USB-C ports? Or an extra $700 for rear seat side impact air bags? Who charges extra for that non-sense? And this (and every other option for it) pushes it over $140K.

^ mercedes caters to people who despise their own money. It's cathartic.

8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ mercedes caters to people who despise their own money. It's cathartic.

And only Porsche beats them at that but at least Porsche has never sold a FWD appliance and disguised it as a performance auto (looking at you A-Class). They get a slight pass but not by much lol.

17 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You do get that it still comes in miles cheaper than the German competition, especially when said competition prices also shoot through the roof when loaded? Hell, I’m looking at the build price for the E63 AMG and why in the hell does it cost $550 extra for soft close doors? What kind of BS is that from the supposed luxury standard of the world? Or how about $50 for two rear USB-C ports? Or an extra $700 for rear seat side impact air bags? Who charges extra for that non-sense? And this (and every other option for it) pushes it over $140K.

The CT5 is a C-Class competitor with C63 S level performance but it is priced higher than that. 
 

As far as soft close doors go, they are part of a $3650 option package on the Escalade Premium Luxury trim, or included on Platinum, and not even offered on any other Cadillac.  Mercedes does most options as al a carte so you aren’t forced in to big option packages to get stuff you don’t want.  

6 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And only Porsche beats them at that but at least Porsche has never sold a FWD appliance and disguised it as a performance auto (looking at you A-Class). They get a slight pass but not by much lol.

The CLA45 is faster around Virginia International Raceway than the CT4-V, CT5-V, Jaguar F-Type R, Alfa Romeo Gulia Quadrafolio and 718 Cayman S.  
 

And 81,000 of the 129,000 vehicles Cadillac sold last year were front drive based.

54 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 

And 81,000 of the 129,000 vehicles Cadillac sold last year were front drive based.

That's a pretty sad statistic.