2018 Cadillac XTS Puts on A CT6 Face

Wow! They didn't update this to the 8-speed or 9-speed! WTF?

I'm okay with the exterior refresh... the interior doesn't look changed enough to matter.

Clearly Cadillac is just going to hang on to this for whatever sales they can get while the amortize out the costs for the Lacrosse and Impala.

Not to sound too much like certain critics of Cadillac, but the car looks much more dynamic and fresh in person than it does in Photographs.

Be interesting to see where Cadillac goes with this...I am kind of thinking we are going to see a bit of a sales slump so any money they save in product development might be spent keeping the lights on for a bit...

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Wow! They didn't update this to the 8-speed or 9-speed! WTF?

I'm okay with the exterior refresh... the interior doesn't look changed enough to matter.

Clearly Cadillac is just going to hang on to this for whatever sales they can get while the amortize out the costs for the Lacrosse and Impala.

Mechanical changes cost money, this was front and rear fascia redo and let it soldier on for 3 more years.  Which makes sense, why spend money on a product that is going to die in 3 years.  

I bet the Impala gets the same treatment next year.  

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Mechanical changes cost money, this was front and rear fascia redo and let it soldier on for 3 more years.  Which makes sense, why spend money on a product that is going to die in 3 years.  

I bet the Impala gets the same treatment next year.  

The mechanical changes are done already. The Lacrosse is getting the 9-speed and already had an 8-speed. 

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The mechanical changes are done already. The Lacrosse is getting the 9-speed and already had an 8-speed. 

Yes, but that was a new car, new interior and stuff.  I don't think they wanted to do anything with the XTS except put a new face on it.  This was like the GM w-body treatment of keep the 3800 and 4-speed going just to save cost, and put on new headlights and bumpers.  This new XTS looks a lot like a CT6, and is the same size, with standard V6 power to standard 4-cylinder power.  They need something for the sales people to use to sell the CT6 (better transmission) and they need to keep cost down for the livery market.

10 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Wow! They didn't update this to the 8-speed or 9-speed! WTF?

I'm okay with the exterior refresh... the interior doesn't look changed enough to matter.

Clearly Cadillac is just going to hang on to this for whatever sales they can get while the amortize out the costs for the Lacrosse and Impala.

Well, it surprised my as well, but then  thought about it...

On a car this size with the power it has, I'm not sure it's worth the upgrade at this point...

or as SmK says, to keep it simple for repair and durable and all that good stuff...

Also think GM realizes these cars are DOA in a few years, as pretty much everyone will be getting out of the large car market....unless you're Nissan and keep giving them away.....

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The mechanical changes are done already. The Lacrosse is getting the 9-speed and already had an 8-speed. 

Lacrosse is a ground-up new car with a new platform. It probably has more in common mechanically with the XT5 crossover than the XTS.

The XTS: an EP2 Impala with a Cadillac exterior and interior (and seemingly not much else).

Well, if I were to get a luxury FWD sedan to replace my Lucerne, this XTS would fit the bill quite nicely.  All jokes aside, it seems like a really nice upgraded LaCrosse with a Cadillac package.  Of course, the XT5 or the CT6 are superior vehicles for different reasons and should be emphasized over the XTS.

2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

The XTS: an EP2 Impala with a Cadillac exterior and interior (and seemingly not much else).

Well, if I were to get a luxury FWD sedan to replace my Lucerne, this XTS would fit the bill quite nicely.  All jokes aside, it seems like a really nice upgraded LaCrosse with a Cadillac package.  Of course, the XT5 or the CT6 are superior vehicles for different reasons and should be emphasized over the XTS.

It's still a really nice choice.  My friend Ron and his wife own one and are very happy with it.

The styling has grown on me..I like the fastback roofline, at first thought the nose was too tall and stubby. 

19 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Wow! They didn't update this to the 8-speed or 9-speed! WTF?

I'm okay with the exterior refresh... the interior doesn't look changed enough to matter.

Clearly Cadillac is just going to hang on to this for whatever sales they can get while the amortize out the costs for the Lacrosse and Impala.

I thought that was evident. In truth the interior was pretty nice even going back to the first year.. the exterior.. in my opinion.. looks like a mix between the XT5 up front and the Escala in the rear. Nice job on the update. The tech got a jump.. the tranny stayed the same. I am not surprised at all on that tho.

8 hours ago, riviera74 said:

The XTS: an EP2 Impala with a Cadillac exterior and interior (and seemingly not much else).

Well, if I were to get a luxury FWD sedan to replace my Lucerne, this XTS would fit the bill quite nicely.  All jokes aside, it seems like a really nice upgraded LaCrosse with a Cadillac package.  Of course, the XT5 or the CT6 are superior vehicles for different reasons and should be emphasized over the XTS.

This simply isn't even temporally correct. The XTS appeared a full year and a half before the Impala. The relation between each vehicle has been said to death,.. what's the point anymore? All three are as good as many of the full size luxury vehicles on sale by other makers when U get down to their appointments and capabilities.. not to mention tech, ride, and styling

21 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

This simply isn't even temporally correct. The XTS appeared a full year and a half before the Impala. The relation between each vehicle has been said to death,.. what's the point anymore? All three are as good as many of the full size luxury vehicles on sale by other makers when U get down to their appointments and capabilities.. not to mention tech, ride, and styling

Quoted for truth...dollar for dollar nothing on the market is better.

I can't wrap my head around this strategy.

They've put a near carbon-copy of the CT6's face onto their least impressive, oldest sedan. I can easily see this leading to confusion on the sales floor and out in the world where casual observers will judge this XTS inside and out as representative of *new* Cadillac.

Yeah, I agree to a degree- but it's the same thing the other makes are doing. I prefer visual differentiation, ALA the ATC/ CTS/ CT6 (which I have no problem ID'ing in a split second on the street)... and I haven't looked the the new XTS vs. the CT6 to judge this as of yet... but across the street Mercedes is putting the same nose that's going to be on the $27K A-class on the $122K S-class coupe! I don't like that kind of price spread on the same rubber stamp.

10 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Yeah, I agree to a degree- but it's the same thing the other makes are doing. I prefer visual differentiation, ALA the ATC/ CTS/ CT6 (which I have no problem ID'ing in a split second on the street)... and I haven't looked the the new XTS vs. the CT6 to judge this as of yet... but across the street Mercedes is putting the same nose that's going to be on the $27K A-class on the $122K S-class coupe! I don't like that kind of price spread on the same rubber stamp.

I don't see this in the same light as the examples you posted because the XTS is an outlier in the Cadillac lineup. It represents a stop-gap, cost-cutting FWD-based large sedan. They took this refresh straight off the front of the CT6, another large sedan occupying much of the same price range, but if you ask GM, they want you to judge Cadillac based on the state-of-the-art CT6.

I'm not aware of a similar situation anywhere else among luxury brands. Even Lexus keeps the ES better updated so as not to drag down the brand's higher tier luxury cars.

The ES is still sporting a 6 speed automatic

30 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The ES is still sporting a 6 speed automatic

...and it has worse chassis tuning than any current Cadillac model.

2 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

...the XTS is an outlier in the Cadillac lineup. It represents a stop-gap, cost-cutting FWD-based large sedan.

It may BE those things, but it doesn't "represent" them as it stands at the curb. What it 'represents' is a large comfortable, well equipped sedan. I don't believe people shopping in this tier 'care' about the backstory in the least as they whisper down the highway in an XTS.

I would not be surprised if the majority of XTS's are AWD- they are on my local lot.

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The ES is still sporting a 6 speed automatic

Probably because the 2006 era V6 in that car isn't compatible with anything else.  

For the post directly above SMK's post NOT involving SMK at all!!!

Alls I see is double standards flowing from sea to shining sea...

Im with CP on this and then some....but I wont be sharing my views any further because there is too much blind loyalty involved....

Im leaving this thread as Im embarrassed by some of you!!!

Balthazar, on my local Cadillac lot, all the XTSes are FWD with no AWD models at all.  I have to drive about 30 miles to find two AWD models down here in Florida.

Cmicasa is right that the current XTS predates the current Impala.  That does not mean that the XTS is any less a Cadillac than the XT5 or the CT6/CTS.  I do wonder why Cadillac is keeping the XTS when the future is clearly elsewhere, such as the CT6/XT5 and a smaller AND larger crossovers to fill in gaps.  Is it a sales thing?

6 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Balthazar, on my local Cadillac lot, all the XTSes are FWD with no AWD models at all.  I have to drive about 30 miles to find two AWD models down here in Florida.

 

Cmicasa is right that the current XTS predates the current Impala.  That does not mean that the XTS is any less a Cadillac than the XT5 or the CT6/CTS.  I do wonder why Cadillac is keeping the XTS when the future is clearly elsewhere, such as the CT6/XT5 and a smaller AND larger crossovers to fill in gaps.  Is it a sales thing?

sure it is!!!!

But its only bad if Mercedes Benz does it and only bad if SMK approves of it!!!

But its OK if GM does it because the ΧΤS prints money for GM!

And yes, the ΧΤS is less of a Cadillac.

It should NOT be in the line-up ANY longer as the CT6 and XT5 NEW generation Cadillacs are here and POINTING the WAY FORWARD!!!

I even question the validity of the ATS!!!

But what may bad for the goose in faulting M-B for crappy and questionable marketing strategies is good for the gander for Cadillac for just as stupid  moves! It all depends on what side of the fence you are sitting on!

Double standards!

So the 2017 Lexus ES350 has the same engine as a 2007 Toyota Camry.  That's how sorry Lexus is.  The XTS is more modern than that at least.  So they can milk a couple more years out of it, I think the plan was to build it until 2019 anyway, and then kill it.  

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So the 2017 Lexus ES350 has the same engine as a 2007 Toyota Camry.  That's how sorry Lexus is.  The XTS is more modern than that at least.  So they can milk a couple more years out of it, I think the plan was to build it until 2019 anyway, and then kill it.  

So effing what, they are not loosing sales due to lack of technology.

34 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Balthazar, on my local Cadillac lot, all the XTSes are FWD with no AWD models at all.  I have to drive about 30 miles to find two AWD models down here in Florida.

maybe it's a FL thing?
Just checked my local NJ dealer's site: 14 XTSs in stock, 7 are FWD, 7 are AWD.

30 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

sure it is!!!!

But its only bad if Mercedes Benz does it and only bad if SMK approves of it!!!

But its OK if GM does it because the ΧΤS prints money for GM!

And yes, the ΧΤS is less of a Cadillac.

It should NOT be in the line-up ANY longer as the CT6 and XT5 NEW generation Cadillacs are here and POINTING the WAY FORWARD!!!

I even question the validity of the ATS!!!

But what may bad for the goose in faulting M-B for crappy and questionable marketing strategies is good for the gander for Cadillac for just as stupid  moves! It all depends on what side of the fence you are sitting on!

Double standards!

 

I'm an a small car guy...I drive right past both Cadillac and Mercedes Benz to get to the MINi dealer..

It probably is a FL thing.  I went to my local Buick dealer and I noticed that the only Envisions on the lot with the 2.0L turbo were Premium models with AWD.  I asked the salesman why that was the case and he did not know.

...that being said I find Cadillac much more interesting.

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

maybe it's a FL thing?
Just checked my local NJ dealer's site: 14 XTSs in stock, 7 are FWD, 7 are AWD.

I think it is fairly equal here in Ohio as well.

43 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

So effing what, they are not loosing sales due to lack of technology.

Well that car has been in steady decline for years.

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Well that car has been in steady decline for years.

The Avalon is actually a better car.

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

It probably is a FL thing.  I went to my local Buick dealer and I noticed that the only Envisions on the lot with the 2.0L turbo were Premium models with AWD.  I asked the salesman why that was the case and he did not know.

Because you can't get awd with the 2.5 last I looked.

10 hours ago, riviera74 said:

It probably is a FL thing.  I went to my local Buick dealer and I noticed that the only Envisions on the lot with the 2.0L turbo were Premium models with AWD.  I asked the salesman why that was the case and he did not know.

Seattle is the opposite of FL. The local dealership I go to has 10 XTS in Stock and 9 are AWD, 1 FWD and base trim compared to AWD are Premiums.

http://www.dougscadillac.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=new&bodyType=CAR&make=Cadillac&model=XTS

16 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I can't wrap my head around this strategy.

They've put a near carbon-copy of the CT6's face onto their least impressive, oldest sedan. I can easily see this leading to confusion on the sales floor and out in the world where casual observers will judge this XTS inside and out as representative of *new* Cadillac.

Irrelevant. One look at the car's stance.. proportions.. even size.. will tell anyone with an ounce of brains that they may be related but they aren't the same. That would be like saying your car and the 2013 Malibu are the same car.. just cause they look similar in the face. I recall no one in their right mind doing that.. ever.

Come on.. this is bullshit. I can go thru every fuckin luxo maker and show U massive inconsistencies pertaining to their "message and line-up"

CADILLAC: The core products are Sport.. their Money makers are traditional.  what's so hard to understand?

Personally I think they would be a fool to differentiate from the formula in total just because a few numskulls can't seem to grasp the ideas of LUXURY comes in many forms.

I don't even have an issue with BENZ producing the CLA or A class.. if they were actually great cars BETTER than the size segment mainstream cars they could be compared to. Example.. CLA vs a Cruze or Civic.. and the Cruze and Civic are simply better cars, especially when one throws in the enviable (from a Cruze fan's perspective) Type R.

If U are so daft as to believe that every Cadillac should be RWD and sporting 400HP then there is a great reason why U have no place in car manufacturing. Its like complaining that the CUV that Caddy has is not a true rep of Cadillac because it is FWD based. So fuckin what??? It sells like gang busters and if U'd take the time to hop in one U'd find that it handles quite nice.. an engine upgrade is quite frankly the only thing I'd change.. and that might have more to do with the fact that when I last drove one.. I had just hopped out of a 640HP monster. Certainly I'd feel the difference. The XTS is no different. Its a money maker.. its on a FWD platform that has sold millions. Its potentially all profit.. on par with the Escalade. WTF would U kill it??? At least until U have a full line-up to displace it. Frankly.. as probably the biggest Caddy fan here I think they should have an actual second generation XTS on the new E2XX Super. It doesn't in the least detract from the brand's resurgence. In fact.. if it does.. the Escalade needs to go too

BTW.. the #1 and #2 best selling luxury CUVs last month were.. FWD based

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I I recall no one in their right mind doing that.. ever.

 

If you are somehow implying the majority of people entering these discussions are somehow in their right mind I have oceanfront property in Minnesota to sell you.

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Come on.. this is bullshit. I can go thru every fuckin luxo maker and show U massive inconsistencies pertaining to their "message and line-up"

CADILLAC: The core products are Sport.. their Money makers are traditional.  what's so hard to understand?

Personally I think they would be a fool to differentiate from the formula in total just because a few numskulls can't seem to grasp the ideas of LUXURY comes in many forms.

I don't even have an issue with BENZ producing the CLA or A class.. if they were actually great cars BETTER than the size segment mainstream cars they could be compared to. Example.. CLA vs a Cruze or Civic.. and the Cruze and Civic are simply better cars, especially when one throws in the enviable (from a Cruze fan's perspective) Type R.

If U are so daft as to believe that every Cadillac should be RWD and sporting 400HP then there is a great reason why U have no place in car manufacturing. Its like complaining that the CUV that Caddy has is not a true rep of Cadillac because it is FWD based. So fuckin what??? It sells like gang busters and if U'd take the time to hop in one U'd find that it handles quite nice.. an engine upgrade is quite frankly the only thing I'd change.. and that might have more to do with the fact that when I last drove one.. I had just hopped out of a 640HP monster. Certainly I'd feel the difference. The XTS is no different. Its a money maker.. its on a FWD platform that has sold millions. Its potentially all profit.. on par with the Escalade. WTF would U kill it??? At least until U have a full line-up to displace it. Frankly.. as probably the biggest Caddy fan here I think they should have an actual second generation XTS on the new E2XX Super. It doesn't in the least detract from the brand's resurgence. In fact.. if it does.. the Escalade needs to go too

BTW.. the #1 and #2 best selling luxury CUVs last month were.. FWD based

 

One can go back eight or nine years here and find people whining about rear wheel drive vs front wheel drive.  One of the women in my wife's department at work bitches on a regular basis about a co worker who drives a Ford Mustang because no one in Ohio should drive rear wheel drive cars because they will kill themselves and the winter and just because...rear wheel drive.

The anti Ford guy in me is quite happy to see Lexus, Cadillac, Mercedes, Acura, BMW all posting better numbers than Lincoln. 

The argument for killing the XTS after 2019 is that the Deville buyer won't be buying new cars by then, the Impala or other full size front drivers may not be around either, so the volume is gone, and lastly you can sell a CT6 for an extra $10,000 to the person who wanted an XTS.  The dealer will just talk the person into a 7 year loan vs a 6 year to stretch the payments.  Or there is the CTS or a crossover.  

Once Cadillac has 4 crossovers no one will miss the XTS.  No one sweats the coming loss of the Taurus because people are buying crossovers anyway.  But for the next 2-3 years I would kill every dime out of the XTS.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The argument for killing the XTS after 2019 is that the Deville buyer won't be buying new cars by then, the Impala or other full size front drivers may not be around either, so the volume is gone, and lastly you can sell a CT6 for an extra $10,000 to the person who wanted an XTS.  The dealer will just talk the person into a 7 year loan vs a 6 year to stretch the payments.  Or there is the CTS or a crossover.  

Once Cadillac has 4 crossovers no one will miss the XTS.  No one sweats the coming loss of the Taurus because people are buying crossovers anyway.  But for the next 2-3 years I would kill every dime out of the XTS.

The seven people who actually live in the united States and want a
Taurus are pretty much pissed, actually.

when the XTS was first introduced.. I posed this question over at GMI:

An issue that I see with people doubting Cadillac's full return is that they seem to rest those laurels on the possibility of them having a front wheel drive based platform for their soon to arrive flagship. Might I remind people within that train of thought that if this flagship is, from what I've read, Awd, larger, wider, more luxurious than the German competitors such as the A8, 750i and S550, with similar sport aspirations, quality and reliability in check, and their current detail in attractive styling, Cadillac will be quite capable of competing with a those aforementioned Germans.From sightings of magazine reviews of the new SRX, and my own test drive of the vehicle after comparing it to both the Audi Q5 and BMW X5 I see no viable reason why, in terms of handling and feel, should the AWD inclusion be overlooked if it is used in lieu of the RWD standard. Truth is the only think I noticed different in driving the SRX vs the X5 was the difference in obtainable power in lower bands. Both having almost identical power enabled me to see not much of a determinable difference in overall performance. Could Cadillac be on to something using a similar config. for the XTS, hopefully with more powerful engines of course?

95% of the car buyers don't know a thing about platforms. I'm a "car guy" and with the exception of GM and some BMWs I have almost no clue what the other makers are using under which vehicle. What matters to me is ultimately performance, prestige, and comfort in a vehicle such as this. 

but it would seem as though "what is ok for the Europeans, is not ok for Cadillac." And that perplexes me on so many levels as to why VW gets a way with providing Audi and Lamborghini with FWDAWD-Only cars but GM gets roasted over the coals, so to speak. I once got into a heated debate, in fact, about the fact that Bentley was using a OHV design in their $300K Arnage, but the very notion of the superior LS2 or LS3 in the STS was ludicrous.  http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f19/how-does-having-cadillac-xts-awd-hurt-brand-image-84403/

Fox Mulder's Ghost 2009. aka Cmicasa the Great

Cmicasa-I do not fault Cadillac on product other than concerns over electrical issues that we discussed previously.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think their problems are more in terms of marketing and public perception than product.

...and one editorial comment.  It is a sad day in mudville when I as the import guy on the forum give Cadillac a more fair shake than a lot of GM fans....just sayin...that attitude from the 2009 post you referenced has not changed with some people...

Hold on now!!!

We like to wax poetic about Cadillac at C&G, but I see many arguments made by SMK, myself and many  counter arguments to criticize Mercedes Benz in some of the commentaries at the GMI thread AGAINST Cadillac waaaaaay in 2009!!!

But we choose to ignore the FAULTS and the REALITY concerning Cadillac!

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09-23-2009, 12:01 PM #13

goblue

6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8

 

Quote

 

Originally Posted by FoxMuldersGhost

Interesting point about the Platforms. Trouble with that point of view is that 95% of the car buyers don't know a thing about platforms. I'm a "car guy" and with the exception of GM and some BMWs I have almost no clue what the other makers are using under which vehicle. What matters to me is ultimately performance, prestige, and comfort in a vehicle such as this.

Your suggestion of AWD only only endears me to the possibility of this vehicle, possibly more so than a RWD other. I wouldn't think that I, for instance, would consider an S8 if it were not for the fact that it is AWD.

 

 

Well, here's the problem - years ago, no one knew a thing. Now, you can google Epsilon and a Buick or Malibu pops up. People now google their prospective cars and read reviews, and the reviewers are always looking for a story - for conflict to generate. This is easy conflict. Just like the "High Value" engine debacle GM tried to foist onto Chevy.

So, the reviewers draw attention to what really is a non-issue and they take 1/3 of the article doing it. Then GM has to defend it, while the stalwarts ( BMW and Mercedes) just sit back and laugh.

In other words, if you're going to buck the trend, then you better have a good reason for doing it. Cost is not a good reason in a reviewers eyes or the public's eyes and especially in this class. There is no good engineering or performance issue for putting a Cadillac flagship on Epsilon.

Take that back - there is one. If you could say that Epsilon allows VOLTEC and Sigma doesn't. That's the only way around it I see. Otherwise GM is just on defense on launch - not a good place to be.

Contrast that to DOHC V8s. There are very good reasons for using a TT DI DOHC V6 over a NA DOHC V8. That's defendable and then you can go on offense with MPG or performance characteristics on launch even though there will still be detractors.

 

 

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09-23-2009, 10:33 PM #34

ARCANGEL

4.4 Liter Supercharged Northstar

Yes but the cadillac flagship should not be just adequate it should surpass and exceed the competition, Like I posted in the other thread, cadillac's problem besides not having leasing is that it's always late to the party. It need to innovate not duplicate. The converj should have been here last year and the volt could have waited! Being that cadillac means"pinnacle" All of there vehicles need to be the pinnacle!! Cars and CUV's that other companies envy and strive to out do. Alas it's the other way around caddy always is following not leading! Case in point.....http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/23/r...gic-at-a-cost/

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09-23-2009, 04:03 PM #25

Tone

7.0 Liter LS7 V8

 

Quote

 

Originally Posted by fp115

But you also have to realize that GM is not only looking to appeal to the luxury buyers that can afford it, but also to the luxury buyer that cannot afford it. The sales success of this car will dictate whether it gets more in the upcoming models.

 

 

I agree ... but what you are describing is exactly what Buick is supposed to do.

Buick is the brand for folks who want a nice cars with lots of features, but don't want to pay too high a price for it. Cadillac is the upsell.

My only thought on why -- right now -- a FWD 'base' Cadillac may make sense is that there are very likely a significant group of older buyers who have been buying cars like the DTS who very likely will not be willing to "move down" to a Buick.

If GM's market research shows this to be true, I can see why Caddy would want to continue to sell to this market. But from a brand perspective, such a move should be considered a transitory effort ... eventually those buyers should be -- by elevating Buick in terms of product and branding -- pursuaded to buy Buicks.

 

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09-23-2009, 10:35 PM #35

2002 Caddy

6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8

I know you are kinda new to this forum, but this has all been covered in other threads...

First what we know pretty much for sure
1) the XTS will be around 4000 pounds (probably a fair bit more for the AWD version)
2) the XTS will be only V6 powered in its first MY (the NorthStar will die with the DTS/STS)
3) the XTS will be standard as a FWD car AWD will be an option. Likely most will sell as FWD cars.

So what does that tell us?

Well first off, as soon as you put a stake in the ground around a FWD platform you limit the power capability of the car to about 300HP... more then that and its un-drivable and we don't have a transmission that can handle more then that anyway.

Second AWD systems aren't exactly light, 300HP (give or take) pushing a 4400 pound car is ho-hum in the world of luxury cars.. Out of the gate this car has two strikes against it...

Oh wait there's more, now that we know how much power and performance we are going to get, we have a pretty good idea of the price point for this car.. and what it will compete against.... Sound familiar? Sounds a lot like a Lexus ES to me. At that price point don't expect fancy self parking systems, or lane departure systems or.. you get the idea. Low end of the market. Entry level luxury...

I could go on... but it all comes down to ...
A low end car that sells a ton doesn't hurt the image, but the lack of a high end car does.. You can't flog a ES car without a LS car to make it asperational.. without the LS the ES is just a fancy Camry...

Without a Full Size "Fleetwood" the XTS will just be a fancy Impala/Lacrosse.

You build a luxury brand from the top down.. not the bottom up.

From 2009...

The year we are in RIGHT NOW is 2017...

And the issues at  Cadillac  are the same and the XΤS is STILL sold with the same issues at Cadillac!!!

A tad less as there is the CT6 and the ΧΤ5 οn the showroom floor...

But SMK gets roasted when he praises M-B

SMK gets roasted when he says EXΑCTLY what was said by others ON A DIFFERENT FORUM WAY BACK in 2009!

I SAY THE SAME THING CONCERNING THE XTS! 

Like I said: Yes there is a double standard when Americans dont hold the same standards for the German  car makers, but American Car Lovers ALSO hold a double standard as they TURN A BLIND EYE TO  CADILLAC BUT POINT THE FINGER AT MERCEDES OR BMW!!!

Not just 2009, but 1999, and even 1989, that Cadillac has been fighting the same battle. Their image and public perception has trailed away past 2009.  The Allante was going to challenge the Germans and create prestige for the brand, that failed and that was 30 years ago.

In 1997 Cadillac was the #1 selling luxury brand in the USA on a 50 year streak of being #1 and today they are 7th place.  They are almost more clueless now than they were in 2009 or 2002.  They just have better engineers covering up the blatant weaknesses in product planning and marketing and R&D spending.

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Not just 2009, but 1999, and even 1989, that Cadillac has been fighting the same battle. Their image and public perception has trailed away past 2009.  The Allante was going to challenge the Germans and create prestige for the brand, that failed and that was 30 years ago.

In 1997 Cadillac was the #1 selling luxury brand in the USA on a 50 year streak of being #1 and today they are 7th place.  They are almost more clueless now than they were in 2009 or 2002.  They just have better engineers covering up the blatant weaknesses in product planning and marketing and R&D spending.

Yes....we both say this time and time again!

Cadillac was completely in a different demographic in 1999- they had just started the slow morph to change their cars up, but the Devilles, Seville, Eldorado were still sedate cushmobiles that never got mentioned in the same articles with Mercedes or BMW (STS occasionally excepted). Now they build cars which exceed both brands in numerous circles and are now readily compared by both reviewers and consumers- that's a huge perceptional change no one thought was a remote possibility in 1999. Recall the incredulous response to a 'Caddy truck' in '99? Now it's reputation is set in stone. These are massive moves forward.
Can more be done? Of course (same can be said for ANY brand today). Look at Mercedes, it took then FORTY YEARS to bring the s-class coupe back, and when it finally shows up, the coupe market is lower than it's EVER been- wasted opportunity over decades of time. And the flagship SUV has been allowed to rot on the vine for DECADES- it could have been a legitimate contender to Range Rover but that ship has sailed and "no one buys them".

Cadillac needs to get their 4.2TT V8 out, and keep working upmarket with nothing below the ATS and XT4 level size-wise. 

Keep in mind Cadillac has no aspirations to be a mainstream, everything to everyone brand, because Cadillac has no pressure to do so. It's in 7th place because the other brands have 4 and 5 and 10 times the number of models- it's called math. When you have 10 apples and Johnny has 50, of course Johnny sells more apples. Duh.

I have to agree with Balthazar here.  When you can build a Cadillac hot enough to turn on a hard core sport compact fan like myself you are doing something right.

The FWD Seville and the mid 2000s era STS that replaced it were both deemed failures, and yet both sold in better numbers than the CTS or CT6 sell at now.  So even if they build some corner carvers, people aren't buying them.  Really Cadillac's best chance for success is as a truck company.  Their 2 SUVs outsell their 4 sedans with ease.  And by the time Cadillac gets a TT V8 out, the market will start moving toward electrics.  Why not get 5 EV's in development for Cadillac to launch in 2020?

The G-wagen had it's best sales year ever in 2016, so being decades old didn't seem to matter at all, in fact it seems to help, the older it got the better it sold.   Mercedes makes the GLS which competes quite nicely against the Range Rover and smokes it in sales.   But there is an all new G-wagen for 2018.

And why does Cadillac not have aspirations of higher sales?  As the most profitable brand at GM, they should want to sell as many Cadillacs as they can.  If Cadillac had Audi sales volume, GM stock would probably be $50 a share and not $30.   Not that I care, I don't own GM stock, but their shareholders I am sure would like more Cadillac sales to generate more profit.

50 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The FWD Seville and the mid 2000s era STS that replaced it were both deemed failures, and yet both sold in better numbers than the CTS or CT6 sell at now.  So even if they build some corner carvers, people aren't buying them.  Really Cadillac's best chance for success is as a truck company.  Their 2 SUVs outsell their 4 sedans with ease.  And by the time Cadillac gets a TT V8 out, the market will start moving toward electrics.  Why not get 5 EV's in development for Cadillac to launch in 2020?

The G-wagen had it's best sales year ever in 2016, so being decades old didn't seem to matter at all, in fact it seems to help, the older it got the better it sold.   Mercedes makes the GLS which competes quite nicely against the Range Rover and smokes it in sales.   But there is an all new G-wagen for 2018.

And why does Cadillac not have aspirations of higher sales?  As the most profitable brand at GM, they should want to sell as many Cadillacs as they can.  If Cadillac had Audi sales volume, GM stock would probably be $50 a share and not $30.   Not that I care, I don't own GM stock, but their shareholders I am sure would like more Cadillac sales to generate more profit.

Next you will be wanting them to sell sewing machines.

1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Next you will be wanting them to sell sewing machines.

No, I want them to sell 2 more crossovers (rear drive ones on Alpha and Omega), and a sports car and a convertible.  And if the sports coupe and convertible are the same vehicle like Jaguar F-Type and Corvette have 2 body styles that works for me.

STS of the '90s when it came out & subsequently was absolutely not 'deemed a failure'- nice try. It got a lot of positive press and first PUT Cadillac into consideration with the German equivalents. Making that jump perceptionally was by itself a success. Now Cadillacs are automatically mentioned with other sports sedans. And yes- "people buy them", just not in numbers you arbitrarily set.

"5 EVs by 2020?" Why didn't Mercedes have 10 EVs in 2010?

And why does Cadillac not have aspirations of higher sales?  As the most profitable brand at GM, they should want to sell as many Cadillacs as they can.

That's YOUR mindset. Unfortunately for YOU (a non-Cadillac buyer, BTW) Cadillac is not following your tweets.
Higher sales to a degree is fine. 2 million?? No thanks- they're not interested.
Why doesn't any small brand suddenly snap their fingers and build 70 models and shoot for 2 million units? Go muddle on that one for a week, see if you can possibly develop any theoretical answers to your own question.

14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

STS of the '90s when it came out & subsequently was absolutely not 'deemed a failure'- nice try. It got a lot of positive press and first PUT Cadillac into consideration with the German equivalents. Making that jump perceptionally was by itself a success. Now Cadillacs are automatically mentioned with other sports sedans. And yes- "people buy them", just not in numbers you arbitrarily set.

"5 EVs by 2020?" Why didn't Mercedes have 10 EVs in 2010?

 

 

That's YOUR mindset. Unfortunately for YOU (a non-Cadillac buyer, BTW) Cadillac is not following your tweets.
Higher sales to a degree is fine. 2 million?? No thanks- they're not interested.
Why doesn't any small brand suddenly snap their fingers and build 70 models and shoot for 2 million units? Go muddle on that one for a week, see if you can possibly develop any theoretical answers to your own question.

If "Seville" was a success, it would still be here, if STS was a success it would still be here.  I actually still think the current ATS should have the CTS name, and the mid-size car should be called STS.   They botched that.  

Mercedes is building 10 EV's by 2022, Cadillac should be able to stir up 5 of them.  I am holding them to half the standard of the worldwide leader.

Volkswagen makes about $700 per car profit, while Audi makes $5,000 per car profit.  Which car do you think VW wants to sell?   GM has a similar set up to them, they should want to sell luxury cars like crazy.  And I think Cadillac could go further up market than where they are.  They are held back by GM bean counters, old ways of thinking, lack of R&D budget, bad marketing department, etc.