2016 Cadillac ATS and CTS Feature An Improved V6, Eight-Speed Automatic

The engine won't drive or hurt sales all that much, the ATS and CTS are pretty much going to sell in a certain volume whether there is a 3.6 liter V6 making 335 hp or a 3.0 TT V6 making 370.  The turbo engine would be nicer, but how many buyers will it sway?  My dislike it is Cadillac doing what is easy and pulling from the parts bin, rather than get 3.0 TT to market faster and make that a Cadillac exclusive engine.

 

Cadillac's big problem is lack of crossovers.  They should have at least 3 in their lineup, and Crossovers have been hot for 10-15 years, this didn't just happen yesterday.  So they missed the boat on that one.   Part of that problem could be GMC.  Upper management probably saw GMC as the luxury truck brand, so that is where the crossovers went, because again, it was cheap and easy to turn a Chevy into a GMC and charge more for it.

 

I said during the bankruptcy that GMC should have been turned into the commercial truck and work truck brand.  They could have had a Transit/Sprinter style full size van by now, work truck versions of their pickups, a small van like the Transit Connect on Delta2 platform, etc.  Then you would have the entry-lux crossovers at Buick and the luxury crossovers at Cadillac.

That I do agree with you on. They have CUVs on the way but it should have happened at least five years ago. 

The engine won't drive or hurt sales all that much, the ATS and CTS are pretty much going to sell in a certain volume whether there is a 3.6 liter V6 making 335 hp or a 3.0 TT V6 making 370.  The turbo engine would be nicer, but how many buyers will it sway?  My dislike it is Cadillac doing what is easy and pulling from the parts bin, rather than get 3.0 TT to market faster and make that a Cadillac exclusive engine.

 

Cadillac's big problem is lack of crossovers.  They should have at least 3 in their lineup, and Crossovers have been hot for 10-15 years, this didn't just happen yesterday.  So they missed the boat on that one.   Part of that problem could be GMC.  Upper management probably saw GMC as the luxury truck brand, so that is where the crossovers went, because again, it was cheap and easy to turn a Chevy into a GMC and charge more for it.

 

I said during the bankruptcy that GMC should have been turned into the commercial truck and work truck brand.  They could have had a Transit/Sprinter style full size van by now, work truck versions of their pickups, a small van like the Transit Connect on Delta2 platform, etc.  Then you would have the entry-lux crossovers at Buick and the luxury crossovers at Cadillac.

That I do agree with you on. They have CUVs on the way but it should have happened at least five years ago.

And where was all the money 5 years ago? Going into trucks and other models that had greater impacts on the profit margins and volume.

You have to consider all the facts not just the web site CEO wantabe ones.

Big picture that is where you have to look and it all adds up.

I'm waiting for the Little CUV Caddy....I think even now it would be good, maybe slated more of the entry level under the ATS.......

I think Caddy needs to do more of their own thing and not worry as much as being compared to Benz or BMW. Car needs to sell more on its own merits...

I've started seeing younger buyers in ATS lately....so they are growing on the younger crowd.

I'm waiting for the Little CUV Caddy....I think even now it would be good, maybe slated more of the entry level under the ATS.......

 

 

I think Caddy needs to do more of their own thing and not worry as much as being compared to Benz or BMW. Car needs to sell more on its own merits...

 

I've started seeing younger buyers in ATS lately....so they are growing on the younger crowd.

Dave that is what Johann states in his interview in the coming Dec Motor Trend. He states that Cadillac needs to be Cadillac and not chase the others. He said that Cadillac used to be represented in substance, technology and craftsmanship etc. and that is what they need to get back to.

I have spoken to the three new ATS owners and all are under 50 and love their new cars so far. One was an ex full size truck owner and feels he made an good choice.

I found the updated EPA estimates a bit lackluster. Basically 1 mpg gained across the board. I was hoping for better highway FE, but maybe GM is going for achievable real-world ratings.

 

2.0T RWD 21/31/25 mpg

3.6L RWD 20/30/24 mpg

 

The first test of the 2016 CTS 2.0T/8A ran a sub-6 second 0-60 sprint and a mid 14 second 1/4 mile. Those are brisk acceleration times, the new V6 should have solid gains over that.

GM has been underrating some of their cars lately.   Initial real world experiences indicate that the 3.6 highway MPGs will do better than EPA. City MPG is going to be highly dependent on how much you're using the auto Start/Stop feature.

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

It's not even out yet.... that's why.  You can't put an engine that doesn't exists into cars that do.  I expect once the CT6 is rolling down the line, the 3.0TT will start flowing to other Cadillacs.

 

 

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

You already have people complaining about the prices. Add TT to each engine you add much more to the price tag. Also what would you use for the V sport then. Cadillac is offering a nice spread of V6 models that will hold a price that will give customers a choice. Most buyers will be happy with 335 HP as most people are fine at 300 HP in most cars. If they want more the 3.0 TT will be around 400 HP for the V sport when it arrives.

You need to let them play the rest of the cards they hold and see the whole picture.

 

 

A boosted six cylinder is the standard of this segment. Cadillac is trying to compete with less while having to try to overcome their inferior perception to buyers. That just won't cut it. They need to build a car that one ups the competition in every regard, not just one or two, and count on price to do the rest. They need more power, they need more luxury, and they need to be priced in line with their rivals.

 

Bump the V Sport up to 470 hp, and  put a 3.0 TT in the CTS below it with 375 hp. Most people being fine with 300 hp is irrelevant. By that logic, Cadillac shouldn't build the CTS-V . As always, it seems like they're just a few ingredients shy of the right recipe to show up the rest of the class.

 

I'm unsure which Cadillac you're referring to, but if it is the CTS, you can get into a V-Sport for a couple grand less than the equivalent (or lesser) engine in the German cars.  

The list below, in order of price and excluding diesels or hybrids (because horsepower wonks don't care about those anyway).  Every step of the way, Cadillac offers more horsepower for your dollar than the Germans.   For example, if you're already going to spend at least $55k + options on a 300hp 6-cylinder 5-series, but ultimate power is important to you... spending an extra $5k (or less) to get into a CTS V-Sport seems like a no brainer to me.   Or another example... I can't imagine going for an A6 3.0 Premium Plus with a few options for $61k when the V-Sport with those same options for the same money is one car lot over.   What if you're bargain shopping your mid-size luxury vehicle?   The lighter and more powerful CTS 2.0 rules the day over the 528i easily.... and even when upgrading the CTS to real leather seats, it is still $1k less than the BMW with plastic seats.

CTS 2.0T - base price $45k - 268hp (Turbo 4)

Audi A6 2.0T - base price $46 - 252hp (Turbo 4 - FWD)

BMW 528 - base price $50k - 240hp (Turbo 4)

MB E350 - base price $53k - 305hp (N/A V6)

CTS 3.6 - base price $54k - 335hp (N/A V6)

BMW 535i - base price $55k - 300hp (I6)

Audi A6 3.0 - base price $57k - 333hp (S/C V6)

CTS 3.6 TT - base price $60k - 420hp (Twin-Turbo V6)

MB E400 - base price $63k - 329hp (Bi-Turbo V6)

BMW 550i - base price $66k - 445hp (Twin-Turbo V8)

Audi S6 - base price $70k - 450hp (Turbo V8)

CTS-V 6.3 - base price $83k - 640hp (Supercharged V8)

BMW M5 - base price $93k - 560hp (Twin-Turbo V8)

MB E63 AMG - base price $101k - 577hp (Bi-Turbo V8)

 

 

 

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

You already have people complaining about the prices. Add TT to each engine you add much more to the price tag. Also what would you use for the V sport then. Cadillac is offering a nice spread of V6 models that will hold a price that will give customers a choice. Most buyers will be happy with 335 HP as most people are fine at 300 HP in most cars. If they want more the 3.0 TT will be around 400 HP for the V sport when it arrives.

You need to let them play the rest of the cards they hold and see the whole picture.

 

 

A boosted six cylinder is the standard of this segment. Cadillac is trying to compete with less while having to try to overcome their inferior perception to buyers. That just won't cut it. They need to build a car that one ups the competition in every regard, not just one or two, and count on price to do the rest. They need more power, they need more luxury, and they need to be priced in line with their rivals.

 

Bump the V Sport up to 470 hp, and  put a 3.0 TT in the CTS below it with 375 hp. Most people being fine with 300 hp is irrelevant. By that logic, Cadillac shouldn't build the CTS-V . As always, it seems like they're just a few ingredients shy of the right recipe to show up the rest of the class.

 

 

I'm unsure which Cadillac you're referring to, but if it is the CTS, you can get into a V-Sport for a couple grand less than the equivalent (or lesser) engine in the German cars.  

 

The list below, in order of price and excluding diesels or hybrids (because horsepower wonks don't care about those anyway).  Every step of the way, Cadillac offers more horsepower for your dollar than the Germans.   For example, if you're already going to spend at least $55k + options on a 300hp 6-cylinder 5-series, but ultimate power is important to you... spending an extra $5k (or less) to get into a CTS V-Sport seems like a no brainer to me.   Or another example... I can't imagine going for an A6 3.0 Premium Plus with a few options for $61k when the V-Sport with those same options for the same money is one car lot over.   What if you're bargain shopping your mid-size luxury vehicle?   The lighter and more powerful CTS 2.0 rules the day over the 528i easily.... and even when upgrading the CTS to real leather seats, it is still $1k less than the BMW with plastic seats.

 

CTS 2.0T - base price $45k - 268hp (Turbo 4)

Audi A6 2.0T - base price $46 - 252hp (Turbo 4 - FWD)

BMW 528 - base price $50k - 240hp (Turbo 4)

MB E350 - base price $53k - 305hp (N/A V6)

CTS 3.6 - base price $54k - 335hp (N/A V6)

BMW 535i - base price $55k - 300hp (I6)

Audi A6 3.0 - base price $57k - 333hp (S/C V6)

CTS 3.6 TT - base price $60k - 420hp (Twin-Turbo V6)

MB E400 - base price $63k - 329hp (Bi-Turbo V6)

BMW 550i - base price $66k - 445hp (Twin-Turbo V8)

Audi S6 - base price $70k - 450hp (Turbo V8)

CTS-V 6.3 - base price $83k - 640hp (Supercharged V8)

BMW M5 - base price $93k - 560hp (Twin-Turbo V8)

MB E63 AMG - base price $101k - 577hp (Bi-Turbo V8)

 

My point is, which your post perfectly makes clear, is that Cadillac is relying on a price advantage in comparison. The fact that you need to go up a trim to get a powertain that is conclusively superior to it's rivals isn't a good thing, imo. While the CTS 2.0T may enjoy a relatively level playing field in terms of power, refinement, efficiency, etc, the 36 certainly doesn't. A little bit of extra kick and their new 8AT isn't going to be enough to keep it from being overshadowed by it's rivals in my eyes.

Also, when you start optioning the cars equally, the Cadiallacs pricing advantage gets eroded in many cases. As just one one example, an Audi S6 and CTS V Sport are only separated by only 2 grand when similarly equipped. And the S6 has AWD, a V8, and a proper DCT. And that kind of pricing level, the CTS isn't even an option for me, or virtually anyone else looking in this segment, and I think you know that. 

 

 

 

 

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

You already have people complaining about the prices. Add TT to each engine you add much more to the price tag. Also what would you use for the V sport then. Cadillac is offering a nice spread of V6 models that will hold a price that will give customers a choice. Most buyers will be happy with 335 HP as most people are fine at 300 HP in most cars. If they want more the 3.0 TT will be around 400 HP for the V sport when it arrives.

You need to let them play the rest of the cards they hold and see the whole picture.

 

 

A boosted six cylinder is the standard of this segment. Cadillac is trying to compete with less while having to try to overcome their inferior perception to buyers. That just won't cut it. They need to build a car that one ups the competition in every regard, not just one or two, and count on price to do the rest. They need more power, they need more luxury, and they need to be priced in line with their rivals.

 

Bump the V Sport up to 470 hp, and  put a 3.0 TT in the CTS below it with 375 hp. Most people being fine with 300 hp is irrelevant. By that logic, Cadillac shouldn't build the CTS-V . As always, it seems like they're just a few ingredients shy of the right recipe to show up the rest of the class.

 

 

I'm unsure which Cadillac you're referring to, but if it is the CTS, you can get into a V-Sport for a couple grand less than the equivalent (or lesser) engine in the German cars.  

 

The list below, in order of price and excluding diesels or hybrids (because horsepower wonks don't care about those anyway).  Every step of the way, Cadillac offers more horsepower for your dollar than the Germans.   For example, if you're already going to spend at least $55k + options on a 300hp 6-cylinder 5-series, but ultimate power is important to you... spending an extra $5k (or less) to get into a CTS V-Sport seems like a no brainer to me.   Or another example... I can't imagine going for an A6 3.0 Premium Plus with a few options for $61k when the V-Sport with those same options for the same money is one car lot over.   What if you're bargain shopping your mid-size luxury vehicle?   The lighter and more powerful CTS 2.0 rules the day over the 528i easily.... and even when upgrading the CTS to real leather seats, it is still $1k less than the BMW with plastic seats.

 

CTS 2.0T - base price $45k - 268hp (Turbo 4)

Audi A6 2.0T - base price $46 - 252hp (Turbo 4 - FWD)

BMW 528 - base price $50k - 240hp (Turbo 4)

MB E350 - base price $53k - 305hp (N/A V6)

CTS 3.6 - base price $54k - 335hp (N/A V6)

BMW 535i - base price $55k - 300hp (I6)

Audi A6 3.0 - base price $57k - 333hp (S/C V6)

CTS 3.6 TT - base price $60k - 420hp (Twin-Turbo V6)

MB E400 - base price $63k - 329hp (Bi-Turbo V6)

BMW 550i - base price $66k - 445hp (Twin-Turbo V8)

Audi S6 - base price $70k - 450hp (Turbo V8)

CTS-V 6.3 - base price $83k - 640hp (Supercharged V8)

BMW M5 - base price $93k - 560hp (Twin-Turbo V8)

MB E63 AMG - base price $101k - 577hp (Bi-Turbo V8)

 

 

My point is, which your post perfectly makes clear, is that Cadillac is relying on a price advantage in comparison. The fact that you need to go up a trim to get a powertain that is conclusively superior to it's rivals isn't a good thing, imo. While the CTS 2.0T may enjoy a relatively level playing field in terms of power, refinement, efficiency, etc, the 36 certainly doesn't. A little bit of extra kick and their new 8AT isn't going to be enough to keep it from being overshadowed by it's rivals in my eyes.

 

Also, when you start optioning the cars equally, the Cadiallacs pricing advantage gets eroded in many cases. As just one one example, an Audi S6 and CTS V Sport are only separated by only 2 grand when similarly equipped. And the S6 has AWD, a V8, and a proper DCT. And that kind of pricing level, the CTS isn't even an option for me, or virtually anyone else looking in this segment, and I think you know that. 

 

I'm confused by you saying "A proper DCT".  The Cadillac 8-speed is as fast or faster than even Porsche's DCT.... or is the "how" more important than the results?  If results don't matter, then sure, go for the DCT.. but don't claim that a DCT is better simply for being a DCT. 

If I select the V-Sport Premium and add 19" wheels (to make it fair) it comes in at $73k, yet I have to option the S6 up to $80k just to get the same level of tech that the Vsport has... so I'm still not seeing the vast Audi advantage you are (aside from AWD, which is a valid need in certain areas). 

You call it "going up a trim" but really it is just selecting a horsepower level at a specific price.  The people going for raw horsepower pick the engine first and the trim second.   The fact remains that at the pricing levels of the "buy-up" engines from Germany, you get V-Sport power from Cadillac.   SMK likes to point at the Benz E400 and compare it to the Cadillac 3.6 for some reason, when for the same price as the E400, one can get a CTS V-Sport.   It simply doesn't make sense to me to be okay with buying up to an E400, but objecting to buying up to a V-Sport.

More examples?

 You can get the base CTS V-Sport for $64k (base plus 19s), but to get the same level of equipment in a BMW 535i, you have to option it up to $68k and you're still substantially down on power. 300hp v 420hp... no contest.  Select the V-Sport Premium for $70k, match it option for option to a 535i, and you be paying $70k for a BMW with a 120hp deficit behind the Cadillac. If you go for the 550i, for the same price, you end up sacrificing tech to get the performance.  Match the tech of the 550i to the V-Sport premium, and you're paying at least $7k more. 

You don't think it's fair to compare the V-Sport to the non-"Sport" models of the German sport-sedans?  Fine.

Starting with a 528i in blue (everything but basic black or white is an upcharge, blue seems popular in my area), we'll add heated seats, Driver Assist (rear camera, park sensors, heads up display), Premium package (Sat Radio and keyless entry), and SmartPhone integration ($200 just to plug in your phone), that gets you to $57k for a 240hp RWD BMW. Head over to Cadillac and select the base V6 for $54k, you get everything included in the above packages, plus cooled seats and another 95 horsepower.  If you're fine with a 4-cylinder, stick with the CTS 2.0T, spend the same $57k as the 528i and get even more on the options list while still getting more power. 

It is very very easy to option the Germans up and over the base V-Sport prices.... or even just option up a lower powered car well over the price of the higher powered car from Cadillac.  Unless you're buying a truly base price German trim (which almost no one does, they're not often even stocked), you're simply going to pay more for less at a German brand.

Cadillac right now is like balancing a See Saw.

It is in transition and much of what we have now will be upgraded or replaced as well as higher prices with the higher craftsmanship and quality. Until then the engines may just be a little less than you like but then the price is also not over what it could be either.

This is a you pay for what you get. As we get even better cars the price will reflect it and they will get it from the customers if the cars are right. Until then they will balance things out and work their way up.

As for arguing over the present engine lets let them finish what they are starting as you may be arguing over a engine that may not even be here in a few years.

It is in transition and much of what we have now will be upgraded or replaced as well as higher prices with the higher craftsmanship and quality. Until then the engines may just be a little less than you like but then the price is also not over what it could be either.

 

Why do we have to wait for craftsmanship and quality?  The ATS and CTS promised to be as well built as the Germans and Cadillac said they would out perform the Germans.   That didn't happen, the sales reflect it.

I don't think the Cadillacs are overpriced, as I have said many times they are still priced below the Germans (and Lexus) but they aren't getting the sales.  So something must be wrong.  Personally, I think they could price the CTS-V at $49,995 and the E-class will outsell it 3-1.   Horsepower per dollar isn't why Cadillac loses the battle, there are many reasons beyond that.

On the CTS I think the engine comparisons are not as bad as with the ATS.  The step up from the turbo 4 on all the German small cars and the Jaguar XE is a supercharged or Turbo Six, all those cars put out 320+ lb-ft of low end torque.   That is where the 3.6 V6 is out gunned.  The CTS has the V-sport which is good power for the money, but I think also rwd only. 

At some point Cadillac has to break the brand image problem.  That needs done on powertrain, interior, build quality, warranty, dealer service, styling, number of model lines, halo cars, marketing, etc.  It is multi-front battle they have to fight.   A good example is Car and Driver just tested the Lincoln MKX, which was $63,000, and regardless of how good the product might be, why would anyone buy that over a Mercedes or BMW?  Cadillac has the same problem, if you have $65,000 to spend, why not buy the German car, rather than a Cadillac and have to justify to people why you did it.

It is in transition and much of what we have now will be upgraded or replaced as well as higher prices with the higher craftsmanship and quality. Until then the engines may just be a little less than you like but then the price is also not over what it could be either.

Why do we have to wait for craftsmanship and quality?  The ATS and CTS promised to be as well built as the Germans and Cadillac said they would out perform the Germans.   That didn't happen, the sales reflect it.

 

I don't think the Cadillacs are overpriced, as I have said many times they are still priced below the Germans (and Lexus) but they aren't getting the sales.  So something must be wrong.  Personally, I think they could price the CTS-V at $49,995 and the E-class will outsell it 3-1.   Horsepower per dollar isn't why Cadillac loses the battle, there are many reasons beyond that.

 

On the CTS I think the engine comparisons are not as bad as with the ATS.  The step up from the turbo 4 on all the German small cars and the Jaguar XE is a supercharged or Turbo Six, all those cars put out 320+ lb-ft of low end torque.   That is where the 3.6 V6 is out gunned.  The CTS has the V-sport which is good power for the money, but I think also rwd only. 

 

At some point Cadillac has to break the brand image problem.  That needs done on powertrain, interior, build quality, warranty, dealer service, styling, number of model lines, halo cars, marketing, etc.  It is multi-front battle they have to fight.   A good example is Car and Driver just tested the Lincoln MKX, which was $63,000, and regardless of how good the product might be, why would anyone buy that over a Mercedes or BMW?  Cadillac has the same problem, if you have $65,000 to spend, why not buy the German car, rather than a Cadillac and have to justify to people why you did it.

Ah maybe you have not noticed but Cadillac has changed management how many times since the start of the Alpha program. These cars were build to an older GM standard that while is much better than what we had it is still not what the present management wants. Note too that the present staff has been there just over a year and has yet to present one of their own products since it can take 2-3 years for a refresh and 5 years for a new vehicle.

Now do you understand why we have not seen where this is all going yet now?

Much work is planned and many of the concerns you state are going to be addressed. It was just a couple years ago GM was fighting Mark on using better Door Handles on the CT6. He lost from some accounts. Today GM finally has gone all in and let Cadillac again be Cadillac and not just some gussied up Chevy. The money is here but it still takes time to bring this to fruition.

Cadillac is not over priced. It is a good price for what you get. To get more money they will have to add more to the cars yet in quality and all other areas. They will earn that but they have to get the product out. As for now the brand is a lower volume brand that makes a lot of profit even at the price they are at. This will continue into the future.

Part of the exclusive image is to keep volumes down. You do not want a car just anyone can buy or own as this would make it nothing more than a fancy Chevy. Note you do not see Bentleys at Walmart or trailer parks do you?

I really think some here really do not understand how far Cadillac will attempt to go here. This is not just going to be the same small incremental improvements we have had. This one is full commitment and it will really be different this time. Things have happened behind the scenes at GM that 10 years ago no one would have ever imagined. Cadillac being given $12B for changed in the next 5 years? Cadillac going to NY to get away from meddlers in Detroit that would fight many of the needed changes. Engines that are expected to be made and will be true Cadillac design and build not just corporate GM engines.

As Johann said in the Dec Motor Trend interview Substance and Craftsmanship will be key just as it was in the 30's. I think it was really reveling how he said a good Halo car for them would be a 4 door convertible. That was something great from their past and something no one else is doing today. That would be a really gutsy call.

Cadillac should be making more profit (total dollars) than Chevrolet.  If Cadillac were properly managed, then it would be responsible for at least 50% of GM's net profit.  I doubt that is the case, and GM will never break the numbers down.  But consider Audi alone makes more profit than Chevy, Buick, GMC,and Cadillac COMBINED!

 

It is in transition and much of what we have now will be upgraded or replaced as well as higher prices with the higher craftsmanship and quality. Until then the engines may just be a little less than you like but then the price is also not over what it could be either.

 

Why do we have to wait for craftsmanship and quality?  The ATS and CTS promised to be as well built as the Germans and Cadillac said they would out perform the Germans.   That didn't happen, the sales reflect it.

 

I don't think the Cadillacs are overpriced, as I have said many times they are still priced below the Germans (and Lexus) but they aren't getting the sales.  So something must be wrong.  Personally, I think they could price the CTS-V at $49,995 and the E-class will outsell it 3-1.   Horsepower per dollar isn't why Cadillac loses the battle, there are many reasons beyond that.

 

On the CTS I think the engine comparisons are not as bad as with the ATS.  The step up from the turbo 4 on all the German small cars and the Jaguar XE is a supercharged or Turbo Six, all those cars put out 320+ lb-ft of low end torque.   That is where the 3.6 V6 is out gunned.  The CTS has the V-sport which is good power for the money, but I think also rwd only. 

 

At some point Cadillac has to break the brand image problem.  That needs done on powertrain, interior, build quality, warranty, dealer service, styling, number of model lines, halo cars, marketing, etc.  It is multi-front battle they have to fight.   A good example is Car and Driver just tested the Lincoln MKX, which was $63,000, and regardless of how good the product might be, why would anyone buy that over a Mercedes or BMW?  Cadillac has the same problem, if you have $65,000 to spend, why not buy the German car, rather than a Cadillac and have to justify to people why you did it.

 

Pure and Simple, Why send your hard earned money and jobs over to a country that if it had won WWII your grandfather would probably be dead and you would not exist. 

No apology to those that love German or Asian auto's, but I believe in the USA, Believe we need to keep the profits here and make sure my neighbor has a job too. Only through investing in our own production of products, keeping the profits here and demanding higher quality will we ensure the financial success of the US.

Keep sending your money over seas and before you know it you could have no job due to the work being overseas at a lower price.

The US needs to be competitive on quality, price, and originality to stand out.

Stand Tall and Support your Country first where possible before sending your hard earned money over seas.

Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

 

 

It is in transition and much of what we have now will be upgraded or replaced as well as higher prices with the higher craftsmanship and quality. Until then the engines may just be a little less than you like but then the price is also not over what it could be either.

 

Why do we have to wait for craftsmanship and quality?  The ATS and CTS promised to be as well built as the Germans and Cadillac said they would out perform the Germans.   That didn't happen, the sales reflect it.

 

I don't think the Cadillacs are overpriced, as I have said many times they are still priced below the Germans (and Lexus) but they aren't getting the sales.  So something must be wrong.  Personally, I think they could price the CTS-V at $49,995 and the E-class will outsell it 3-1.   Horsepower per dollar isn't why Cadillac loses the battle, there are many reasons beyond that.

 

On the CTS I think the engine comparisons are not as bad as with the ATS.  The step up from the turbo 4 on all the German small cars and the Jaguar XE is a supercharged or Turbo Six, all those cars put out 320+ lb-ft of low end torque.   That is where the 3.6 V6 is out gunned.  The CTS has the V-sport which is good power for the money, but I think also rwd only. 

 

At some point Cadillac has to break the brand image problem.  That needs done on powertrain, interior, build quality, warranty, dealer service, styling, number of model lines, halo cars, marketing, etc.  It is multi-front battle they have to fight.   A good example is Car and Driver just tested the Lincoln MKX, which was $63,000, and regardless of how good the product might be, why would anyone buy that over a Mercedes or BMW?  Cadillac has the same problem, if you have $65,000 to spend, why not buy the German car, rather than a Cadillac and have to justify to people why you did it.

 

Pure and Simple, Why send your hard earned money and jobs over to a country that if it had won WWII your grandfather would probably be dead and you would not exist. 

 

No apology to those that love German or Asian auto's, but I believe in the USA, Believe we need to keep the profits here and make sure my neighbor has a job too. Only through investing in our own production of products, keeping the profits here and demanding higher quality will we ensure the financial success of the US.

 

Keep sending your money over seas and before you know it you could have no job due to the work being overseas at a lower price.

 

The US needs to be competitive on quality, price, and originality to stand out.

 

Stand Tall and Support your Country first where possible before sending your hard earned money over seas.

 

Yup Yup!!!

Cadillac should be making more profit (total dollars) than Chevrolet.  If Cadillac were properly managed, then it would be responsible for at least 50% of GM's net profit.  I doubt that is the case, and GM will never break the numbers down.  But consider Audi alone makes more profit than Chevy, Buick, GMC,and Cadillac COMBINED!

LOL.. after the fiasco.. overall.. I seriously doubt it 

 

 

"It’s too bad that buyers are staying away from the Cadillac in droves—they’re missing out on automotive greatness."

 

The CTS is the best looking Cadillac.

I really don't understand it's sales challenges.  Is it due to high price?

Actually the numbers are up. The ATS if I recall was up 44% in sales.

The truth is the profit per car is also up much too.

Cadillac is not longer a volume brand and will not need to relay on larger volumes to survive. They can survive on small volumes but GM will expect increases to the volume to make sure they take advantage of the mega profits per unit in this segment.

Ford will do the same but they are 10 years behind. This is what Saved Lincoln as they were set for death with many inside Ford and enough support rallied to save them.

 

 

Sales are up?

Somebody should tell the source.

 

And i have to put a stop to this 10 year lagging remark people keep perpetuating.

 

Lincoln sedans are behind, but nowhere near that much. Kind of a subjective opinion here, but with new Conti next year, I would say they made up a lot of ground.  All new platform Lincolns are 3 years out, which will have them caught up.

 

Lincoln SUV is about one year out, which will either put them on par with Caddy at worst, or above them at best. Somewhere in between. I will call it at about 2 years.

 

Lincoln CUV's have the upper hand and do not trail Cadillac.

 

Cadillac overall sales are down because they are Car Heavy in a CUV heavy segment. The only car that bucks that statement is really the 3series.  For instance in Aug.. the i3 -22.7%, the 5Series -10.2%, 6Series -44.9%, 7Series -83.0%, even the 4series -31.3% were all DOWN. No worries.. because BMW has CUVs that were mostly up. The only thing that really saved their CAR numbers was the uptick in sales from the i8 +2233.3% because it went from selling 8 last year to a blazing 210 and the X1, which I'm bewildered as to how the hell it is called a car and not a CUV on their charts exclusively.

Sooooo the CTS and ATS sell. They just aren't selling in "established for 25 years segment numbers" as yet. The CTS tho, doesn't sell as many as before because of reasons I've outlined dozens of times before; Want a CTS-V Coupe? Go buy one then. A 2016 CTS-V Coupe. Well why not? No Coupes??? Does that effect your buying decision? Would it effect anyone else's? Maybe they would forego buying a CTS at all and go buy a competitor. Maybe that explains some sales loss... I dunno. 

 

Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

 

 

I agree with this. I see no reason why Cadillac is even using the NA 3.6L when they have the 3.0L TT capable of so much more. I would also argue that their 2.0LTT is also capable of being tuned to the same 335HP, but would most likely have more torque. I think they are playing up to the old desires of some buyers not wanting to have anything to do with Forced induction. 

 

Right now we have :

 

LTG 272HP/295lbs

 

LGX (335 hp and 284 lb-ft ) (WHY???) 

 

LGW (400HP) 

 

LF3 (420HP) 

 

LF4 (465HP)

 

LT4 (640HP) 

 

Voltech/2.0L Hybrid (335 hp and 432 lb-ft)

 

There has to be someone who looks at this and says "hey.. we have a lot of overlap, why don't we eliminate 2 of them?)

 

I would certainly think the LGX stay in the other brands while making Cadillac completely and only Forced induction. As of now the LF3 has sat in Cadillacs only, and I truly believe that the development of the LF4 was to keep Cadillac from needing to go to the LT1 for its 460+HP needs. The LF4 can easily be tuned to over 500HP as the LF3 is easily tuned to over 500HP. Perhaps a revisit to the "Shortstar" V6 and upcoming TTV8 being called NorthStar or UltraStar would be in order. It doesn't make sense to not take the 2.0L up a notch to the 335HP range or detuning the 3.0L down to 350HP

 

Again, the 3.0TT isn't in production yet. 

 

It is in transition and much of what we have now will be upgraded or replaced as well as higher prices with the higher craftsmanship and quality. Until then the engines may just be a little less than you like but then the price is also not over what it could be either.

 

Why do we have to wait for craftsmanship and quality?  The ATS and CTS promised to be as well built as the Germans and Cadillac said they would out perform the Germans.   That didn't happen, the sales reflect it.

 

I don't think the Cadillacs are overpriced, as I have said many times they are still priced below the Germans (and Lexus) but they aren't getting the sales.  So something must be wrong.  Personally, I think they could price the CTS-V at $49,995 and the E-class will outsell it 3-1.   Horsepower per dollar isn't why Cadillac loses the battle, there are many reasons beyond that.

 

On the CTS I think the engine comparisons are not as bad as with the ATS.  The step up from the turbo 4 on all the German small cars and the Jaguar XE is a supercharged or Turbo Six, all those cars put out 320+ lb-ft of low end torque.   That is where the 3.6 V6 is out gunned.  The CTS has the V-sport which is good power for the money, but I think also rwd only. 

 

At some point Cadillac has to break the brand image problem.  That needs done on powertrain, interior, build quality, warranty, dealer service, styling, number of model lines, halo cars, marketing, etc.  It is multi-front battle they have to fight.   A good example is Car and Driver just tested the Lincoln MKX, which was $63,000, and regardless of how good the product might be, why would anyone buy that over a Mercedes or BMW?  Cadillac has the same problem, if you have $65,000 to spend, why not buy the German car, rather than a Cadillac and have to justify to people why you did it.

 

This has been discussed at least three dozen times before. The problem is not so much the cars, but the dealership experience. They have to step those up a notch or three to compete with the Germans and Lexus. That alone is one of the biggest reasons for their struggles. I know GM is working on updating and changing the Cadillac dealerships (they are renovating two in my area) so that will go a long way to solving some of their issues IMO.

 

Cadillac should be making more profit (total dollars) than Chevrolet.  If Cadillac were properly managed, then it would be responsible for at least 50% of GM's net profit.  I doubt that is the case, and GM will never break the numbers down.  But consider Audi alone makes more profit than Chevy, Buick, GMC,and Cadillac COMBINED!

 

 

 

LOL.. after the fiasco.. overall.. I seriously doubt it 

 

Yeah, it's real easy to profit when you have been cheating the customer for so many years. Audi is quite possibly the worst example he could have given in regards to profits right now.

 But consider Audi alone makes more profit than Chevy, Buick, GMC,and Cadillac COMBINED!

Now subtract $8 billion and counting from the Audi column.

A. Why isn't the twin turbo V6 in production yet? This isn't new stuff, a 2010 Ford Taurus had a twin turbo V6. Poor planning by Cadillac 4 years ago.

B. If you want to support American jobs it is better to by an Accord, X3, GLE or GLC (which are all made in the USA) rather than a Fusion, MKZ or SRX which are not. CTS is American made, E-class is German made, the argument works in that segment, but doesn't in many others.

A. Why isn't the twin turbo V6 in production yet? This isn't new stuff, a 2010 Ford Taurus had a twin turbo V6. Poor planning by Cadillac 4 years ago.

B. If you want to support American jobs it is better to by an Accord, X3, GLE or GLC (which are all made in the USA) rather than a Fusion, MKZ or SRX which are not. CTS is American made, E-class is German made, the argument works in that segment, but doesn't in many others.

Cadillac has 3 twin turbos in production now... you just refuse to see them on the options sheet because for some reason it isn't exactly the one you want.

 

 

 

 

 

A boosted six cylinder is the standard of this segment. Cadillac is trying to compete with less while having to try to overcome their inferior perception to buyers. That just won't cut it. They need to build a car that one ups the competition in every regard, not just one or two, and count on price to do the rest. They need more power, they need more luxury, and they need to be priced in line with their rivals.

 

Bump the V Sport up to 470 hp, and  put a 3.0 TT in the CTS below it with 375 hp. Most people being fine with 300 hp is irrelevant. By that logic, Cadillac shouldn't build the CTS-V . As always, it seems like they're just a few ingredients shy of the right recipe to show up the rest of the class.

 

I'm unsure which Cadillac you're referring to, but if it is the CTS, you can get into a V-Sport for a couple grand less than the equivalent (or lesser) engine in the German cars.  

 

The list below, in order of price and excluding diesels or hybrids (because horsepower wonks don't care about those anyway).  Every step of the way, Cadillac offers more horsepower for your dollar than the Germans.   For example, if you're already going to spend at least $55k + options on a 300hp 6-cylinder 5-series, but ultimate power is important to you... spending an extra $5k (or less) to get into a CTS V-Sport seems like a no brainer to me.   Or another example... I can't imagine going for an A6 3.0 Premium Plus with a few options for $61k when the V-Sport with those same options for the same money is one car lot over.   What if you're bargain shopping your mid-size luxury vehicle?   The lighter and more powerful CTS 2.0 rules the day over the 528i easily.... and even when upgrading the CTS to real leather seats, it is still $1k less than the BMW with plastic seats.

 

CTS 2.0T - base price $45k - 268hp (Turbo 4)

Audi A6 2.0T - base price $46 - 252hp (Turbo 4 - FWD)

BMW 528 - base price $50k - 240hp (Turbo 4)

MB E350 - base price $53k - 305hp (N/A V6)

CTS 3.6 - base price $54k - 335hp (N/A V6)

BMW 535i - base price $55k - 300hp (I6)

Audi A6 3.0 - base price $57k - 333hp (S/C V6)

CTS 3.6 TT - base price $60k - 420hp (Twin-Turbo V6)

MB E400 - base price $63k - 329hp (Bi-Turbo V6)

BMW 550i - base price $66k - 445hp (Twin-Turbo V8)

Audi S6 - base price $70k - 450hp (Turbo V8)

CTS-V 6.3 - base price $83k - 640hp (Supercharged V8)

BMW M5 - base price $93k - 560hp (Twin-Turbo V8)

MB E63 AMG - base price $101k - 577hp (Bi-Turbo V8)

 

 

My point is, which your post perfectly makes clear, is that Cadillac is relying on a price advantage in comparison. The fact that you need to go up a trim to get a powertain that is conclusively superior to it's rivals isn't a good thing, imo. While the CTS 2.0T may enjoy a relatively level playing field in terms of power, refinement, efficiency, etc, the 36 certainly doesn't. A little bit of extra kick and their new 8AT isn't going to be enough to keep it from being overshadowed by it's rivals in my eyes.

 

Also, when you start optioning the cars equally, the Cadiallacs pricing advantage gets eroded in many cases. As just one one example, an Audi S6 and CTS V Sport are only separated by only 2 grand when similarly equipped. And the S6 has AWD, a V8, and a proper DCT. And that kind of pricing level, the CTS isn't even an option for me, or virtually anyone else looking in this segment, and I think you know that. 

 

 

I'm confused by you saying "A proper DCT".  The Cadillac 8-speed is as fast or faster than even Porsche's DCT.... or is the "how" more important than the results?  If results don't matter, then sure, go for the DCT.. but don't claim that a DCT is better simply for being a DCT. 

 

If I select the V-Sport Premium and add 19" wheels (to make it fair) it comes in at $73k, yet I have to option the S6 up to $80k just to get the same level of tech that the Vsport has... so I'm still not seeing the vast Audi advantage you are (aside from AWD, which is a valid need in certain areas). 

 

You call it "going up a trim" but really it is just selecting a horsepower level at a specific price.  The people going for raw horsepower pick the engine first and the trim second.   The fact remains that at the pricing levels of the "buy-up" engines from Germany, you get V-Sport power from Cadillac.   SMK likes to point at the Benz E400 and compare it to the Cadillac 3.6 for some reason, when for the same price as the E400, one can get a CTS V-Sport.   It simply doesn't make sense to me to be okay with buying up to an E400, but objecting to buying up to a V-Sport.

 

More examples?

 You can get the base CTS V-Sport for $64k (base plus 19s), but to get the same level of equipment in a BMW 535i, you have to option it up to $68k and you're still substantially down on power. 300hp v 420hp... no contest.  Select the V-Sport Premium for $70k, match it option for option to a 535i, and you be paying $70k for a BMW with a 120hp deficit behind the Cadillac. If you go for the 550i, for the same price, you end up sacrificing tech to get the performance.  Match the tech of the 550i to the V-Sport premium, and you're paying at least $7k more. 

 

You don't think it's fair to compare the V-Sport to the non-"Sport" models of the German sport-sedans?  Fine.

 

Starting with a 528i in blue (everything but basic black or white is an upcharge, blue seems popular in my area), we'll add heated seats, Driver Assist (rear camera, park sensors, heads up display), Premium package (Sat Radio and keyless entry), and SmartPhone integration ($200 just to plug in your phone), that gets you to $57k for a 240hp RWD BMW. Head over to Cadillac and select the base V6 for $54k, you get everything included in the above packages, plus cooled seats and another 95 horsepower.  If you're fine with a 4-cylinder, stick with the CTS 2.0T, spend the same $57k as the 528i and get even more on the options list while still getting more power. 

 

It is very very easy to option the Germans up and over the base V-Sport prices.... or even just option up a lower powered car well over the price of the higher powered car from Cadillac.  Unless you're buying a truly base price German trim (which almost no one does, they're not often even stocked), you're simply going to pay more for less at a German brand.

 

I built an S6 Premium with options and a CTS V-Sport out to as identical in options as I could, and there was only a 2 grand price difference in favor of the Cadillac.

But that was but one example. In others, there is a larger price advantage in favor of Cadillac. The 5 Series, in particular, does represent rather poor value, more poor as you go lower in engine trims.

As for the 8AT, it's overhyped to put it mildly. I've experienced in several vehicles now, and while GM may like to tout that it's as quick as a DCT or PDK during full=throttle upshifts, it's a whole different story in part-throttle upshifts, downshifts, seamlessness, and response to using paddles. I just don't find it to be an impressive transmission. It's fine in mundane applications, in cars like the Z06, Cadillacs, etc, it needs to be replaced with a proper dual clutch auto. That's my opinion (as well as that of many others, journalists included) and I'm sticking to it. If you disagree, fine by me. I think you have a very strong bias for GM products, fwiw, so it doesn't surprise me. 

 

Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

 

 

I agree with this. I see no reason why Cadillac is even using the NA 3.6L when they have the 3.0L TT capable of so much more. I would also argue that their 2.0LTT is also capable of being tuned to the same 335HP, but would most likely have more torque. I think they are playing up to the old desires of some buyers not wanting to have anything to do with Forced induction. 

 

Right now we have :

 

LTG 272HP/295lbs

 

LGX (335 hp and 284 lb-ft ) (WHY???) 

 

LGW (400HP) 

 

LF3 (420HP) 

 

LF4 (465HP)

 

LT4 (640HP) 

 

Voltech/2.0L Hybrid (335 hp and 432 lb-ft)

 

There has to be someone who looks at this and says "hey.. we have a lot of overlap, why don't we eliminate 2 of them?)

 

I would certainly think the LGX stay in the other brands while making Cadillac completely and only Forced induction. As of now the LF3 has sat in Cadillacs only, and I truly believe that the development of the LF4 was to keep Cadillac from needing to go to the LT1 for its 460+HP needs. The LF4 can easily be tuned to over 500HP as the LF3 is easily tuned to over 500HP. Perhaps a revisit to the "Shortstar" V6 and upcoming TTV8 being called NorthStar or UltraStar would be in order. It doesn't make sense to not take the 2.0L up a notch to the 335HP range or detuning the 3.0L down to 350HP

 

Look at that- a rational, intelligent, reasonable post from Cmicasa in response to someone who was criticizing (albeit more or less constructively) GM.

A. Why isn't the twin turbo V6 in production yet? This isn't new stuff, a 2010 Ford Taurus had a twin turbo V6. Poor planning by Cadillac 4 years ago.

B. If you want to support American jobs it is better to by an Accord, X3, GLE or GLC (which are all made in the USA) rather than a Fusion, MKZ or SRX which are not. CTS is American made, E-class is German made, the argument works in that segment, but doesn't in many others.

Again GM was more at work getting a New ATS and CTS out on an Alpha first as few companies including GM can do it all at one time. They are doing it as fast as they can but you are not going to get it all at one time.

We really need to get you a can of reality to play with.

 

A. Why isn't the twin turbo V6 in production yet? This isn't new stuff, a 2010 Ford Taurus had a twin turbo V6. Poor planning by Cadillac 4 years ago.

B. If you want to support American jobs it is better to by an Accord, X3, GLE or GLC (which are all made in the USA) rather than a Fusion, MKZ or SRX which are not. CTS is American made, E-class is German made, the argument works in that segment, but doesn't in many others.

 

Cadillac has 3 twin turbos in production now... you just refuse to see them on the options sheet because for some reason it isn't exactly the one you want.

 

ATS-V engine is put against a V8 Mercedes, and a V8 Lexus IS-F.  CTS V-sport was aimed against the 550i, E550/CLS550, Infiniti M56, Audi S6, and Jaguar XF 5.0, and all those have V8s.  Cadillac is trying to put an NA V6 against the boosted sixes from the Europeans, and a twin turbo V6 against the boosted V8s of the Europeans.   That is my problem with the strategy.

I'd like to see Cadillac come up with a 3.6-4.0 liter twin turbo V8 for the ATS-V, CTS V-sport, CT6 V-sport, and future performance crossovers, and future full size coupe/convertible product.  Then they can have 2 liter turbo as a base engine, 3 liter turbo V6 as a mid-level (maybe 2 boost levels, like a 350 hp and 400 hp version)  and a twin turbo V8.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A boosted six cylinder is the standard of this segment. Cadillac is trying to compete with less while having to try to overcome their inferior perception to buyers. That just won't cut it. They need to build a car that one ups the competition in every regard, not just one or two, and count on price to do the rest. They need more power, they need more luxury, and they need to be priced in line with their rivals.

 

Bump the V Sport up to 470 hp, and  put a 3.0 TT in the CTS below it with 375 hp. Most people being fine with 300 hp is irrelevant. By that logic, Cadillac shouldn't build the CTS-V . As always, it seems like they're just a few ingredients shy of the right recipe to show up the rest of the class.

 

I'm unsure which Cadillac you're referring to, but if it is the CTS, you can get into a V-Sport for a couple grand less than the equivalent (or lesser) engine in the German cars.  

 

The list below, in order of price and excluding diesels or hybrids (because horsepower wonks don't care about those anyway).  Every step of the way, Cadillac offers more horsepower for your dollar than the Germans.   For example, if you're already going to spend at least $55k + options on a 300hp 6-cylinder 5-series, but ultimate power is important to you... spending an extra $5k (or less) to get into a CTS V-Sport seems like a no brainer to me.   Or another example... I can't imagine going for an A6 3.0 Premium Plus with a few options for $61k when the V-Sport with those same options for the same money is one car lot over.   What if you're bargain shopping your mid-size luxury vehicle?   The lighter and more powerful CTS 2.0 rules the day over the 528i easily.... and even when upgrading the CTS to real leather seats, it is still $1k less than the BMW with plastic seats.

 

CTS 2.0T - base price $45k - 268hp (Turbo 4)

Audi A6 2.0T - base price $46 - 252hp (Turbo 4 - FWD)

BMW 528 - base price $50k - 240hp (Turbo 4)

MB E350 - base price $53k - 305hp (N/A V6)

CTS 3.6 - base price $54k - 335hp (N/A V6)

BMW 535i - base price $55k - 300hp (I6)

Audi A6 3.0 - base price $57k - 333hp (S/C V6)

CTS 3.6 TT - base price $60k - 420hp (Twin-Turbo V6)

MB E400 - base price $63k - 329hp (Bi-Turbo V6)

BMW 550i - base price $66k - 445hp (Twin-Turbo V8)

Audi S6 - base price $70k - 450hp (Turbo V8)

CTS-V 6.3 - base price $83k - 640hp (Supercharged V8)

BMW M5 - base price $93k - 560hp (Twin-Turbo V8)

MB E63 AMG - base price $101k - 577hp (Bi-Turbo V8)

 

 

My point is, which your post perfectly makes clear, is that Cadillac is relying on a price advantage in comparison. The fact that you need to go up a trim to get a powertain that is conclusively superior to it's rivals isn't a good thing, imo. While the CTS 2.0T may enjoy a relatively level playing field in terms of power, refinement, efficiency, etc, the 36 certainly doesn't. A little bit of extra kick and their new 8AT isn't going to be enough to keep it from being overshadowed by it's rivals in my eyes.

 

Also, when you start optioning the cars equally, the Cadiallacs pricing advantage gets eroded in many cases. As just one one example, an Audi S6 and CTS V Sport are only separated by only 2 grand when similarly equipped. And the S6 has AWD, a V8, and a proper DCT. And that kind of pricing level, the CTS isn't even an option for me, or virtually anyone else looking in this segment, and I think you know that. 

 

 

I'm confused by you saying "A proper DCT".  The Cadillac 8-speed is as fast or faster than even Porsche's DCT.... or is the "how" more important than the results?  If results don't matter, then sure, go for the DCT.. but don't claim that a DCT is better simply for being a DCT. 

 

If I select the V-Sport Premium and add 19" wheels (to make it fair) it comes in at $73k, yet I have to option the S6 up to $80k just to get the same level of tech that the Vsport has... so I'm still not seeing the vast Audi advantage you are (aside from AWD, which is a valid need in certain areas). 

 

You call it "going up a trim" but really it is just selecting a horsepower level at a specific price.  The people going for raw horsepower pick the engine first and the trim second.   The fact remains that at the pricing levels of the "buy-up" engines from Germany, you get V-Sport power from Cadillac.   SMK likes to point at the Benz E400 and compare it to the Cadillac 3.6 for some reason, when for the same price as the E400, one can get a CTS V-Sport.   It simply doesn't make sense to me to be okay with buying up to an E400, but objecting to buying up to a V-Sport.

 

More examples?

 You can get the base CTS V-Sport for $64k (base plus 19s), but to get the same level of equipment in a BMW 535i, you have to option it up to $68k and you're still substantially down on power. 300hp v 420hp... no contest.  Select the V-Sport Premium for $70k, match it option for option to a 535i, and you be paying $70k for a BMW with a 120hp deficit behind the Cadillac. If you go for the 550i, for the same price, you end up sacrificing tech to get the performance.  Match the tech of the 550i to the V-Sport premium, and you're paying at least $7k more. 

 

You don't think it's fair to compare the V-Sport to the non-"Sport" models of the German sport-sedans?  Fine.

 

Starting with a 528i in blue (everything but basic black or white is an upcharge, blue seems popular in my area), we'll add heated seats, Driver Assist (rear camera, park sensors, heads up display), Premium package (Sat Radio and keyless entry), and SmartPhone integration ($200 just to plug in your phone), that gets you to $57k for a 240hp RWD BMW. Head over to Cadillac and select the base V6 for $54k, you get everything included in the above packages, plus cooled seats and another 95 horsepower.  If you're fine with a 4-cylinder, stick with the CTS 2.0T, spend the same $57k as the 528i and get even more on the options list while still getting more power. 

 

It is very very easy to option the Germans up and over the base V-Sport prices.... or even just option up a lower powered car well over the price of the higher powered car from Cadillac.  Unless you're buying a truly base price German trim (which almost no one does, they're not often even stocked), you're simply going to pay more for less at a German brand.

 

 

I built an S6 Premium with options and a CTS V-Sport out to as identical in options as I could, and there was only a 2 grand price difference in favor of the Cadillac.

 

But that was but one example. In others, there is a larger price advantage in favor of Cadillac. The 5 Series, in particular, does represent rather poor value, more poor as you go lower in engine trims.

 

As for the 8AT, it's overhyped to put it mildly. I've experienced in several vehicles now, and while GM may like to tout that it's as quick as a DCT or PDK during full=throttle upshifts, it's a whole different story in part-throttle upshifts, downshifts, seamlessness, and response to using paddles. I just don't find it to be an impressive transmission. It's fine in mundane applications, in cars like the Z06, Cadillacs, etc, it needs to be replaced with a proper dual clutch auto. That's my opinion (as well as that of many others, journalists included) and I'm sticking to it. If you disagree, fine by me. I think you have a very strong bias for GM products, fwiw, so it doesn't surprise me. 

 

So the S6 base and the CTS V-Sport Premium have essentially the same base price.  It's the standard features on the Cadillac that are the "gotcha" on the Audi.   To get to the same level of features on the Audi S6 that come with the standard on the Cadillac V-Sport Premium, one has to add Driver Assistance Package ($2,550), Cold Weather Package ($500), Individual Contour Seating Package ($1,950), and Bose Sound System ($850), and Rear Side Airbags (astonishingly a $350 option on a $70k car), and only then has the S6 matched the level of equipment that comes standard with the V-Sport Premium.   Adding that equipment to the S4 that gets you to $77,100...... so that's why I'm having trouble seeing the mere $2k difference you see between the two vehicles.   Can you get an S6 for $70k?  Yes, but look at all of the equipment and features you'll be giving up.

Its interesting that you say I have a bias towards GM products.  Primarily, I have more of a bias toward getting the most for my money and in this segment, Cadillac seems to win.

However, you made me introspective, so I thought about the various segments and did a quick tally of what my personal first choice would be..... sadly, GM wins in only 5 segments. (Sonic, Canyonado, Tahoe/Yukon, Escalade, CTS and XTS V-Sports).  If I listed the rest out, I'd be accused of having a bias towards FCA or Mercedes.

 

 

Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

 

 

I agree with this. I see no reason why Cadillac is even using the NA 3.6L when they have the 3.0L TT capable of so much more. I would also argue that their 2.0LTT is also capable of being tuned to the same 335HP, but would most likely have more torque. I think they are playing up to the old desires of some buyers not wanting to have anything to do with Forced induction. 

 

Right now we have :

 

LTG 272HP/295lbs

 

LGX (335 hp and 284 lb-ft ) (WHY???) 

 

LGW (400HP) 

 

LF3 (420HP) 

 

LF4 (465HP)

 

LT4 (640HP) 

 

Voltech/2.0L Hybrid (335 hp and 432 lb-ft)

 

There has to be someone who looks at this and says "hey.. we have a lot of overlap, why don't we eliminate 2 of them?)

 

I would certainly think the LGX stay in the other brands while making Cadillac completely and only Forced induction. As of now the LF3 has sat in Cadillacs only, and I truly believe that the development of the LF4 was to keep Cadillac from needing to go to the LT1 for its 460+HP needs. The LF4 can easily be tuned to over 500HP as the LF3 is easily tuned to over 500HP. Perhaps a revisit to the "Shortstar" V6 and upcoming TTV8 being called NorthStar or UltraStar would be in order. It doesn't make sense to not take the 2.0L up a notch to the 335HP range or detuning the 3.0L down to 350HP

 

 

 

Look at that- a rational, intelligent, reasonable post from Cmicasa in response to someone who was criticizing (albeit more or less constructively) GM.

 

By that same token, your normally rational posts have been a rare commodity over the past week. Just saying.