CARB Documents Confirm V6 For Regal GS

Nice, but it looks like all they did was change out the front badge from Opel to Buick. 

17 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Nice, but it looks like all they did was change out the front badge from Opel to Buick. 

Well yeah, it was developed and designed from the ground up as both Opel and Buick, so why would they put two unique faces on a car sold in separate markets?

54 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Well yeah, it was developed and designed from the ground up as both Opel and Buick, so why would they put two unique faces on a car sold in separate markets?

Different brands, different grille styling cues... 

Probably going after the Acura TLX and Maxima that offer a V6.  Eventually I bet they merge Regal and Lacrosse into one sedan, they are awfully close to each other at this point and the sales of either won't be that high.  Especially when they lose input from Opel, Buick might just go with 1 sedan and 3-4 crossovers post 2020, or maybe add a version of the Volt as their 2nd car.

24 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 Eventually I bet they merge Regal and Lacrosse into one sedan

Didnt that, like happen about 20-30 years ago?

Didnt the Lacrosse replace the old W-Body Regal and the shared old W-Body Century which replaced the FWD  A-Body and the RWD G-Body which were fused together to create the aforementioned W-Body twins?

Didnt the big Lacrosse replace the Lucerne which replaced the LeSabre and Park Ave?

Why was the Verano so phoquing close to interior dimensions as the Regal?

Why was the Verano killed off and why is this next gen Regal so phoquing close to interior dimensions as the Lacrosse?

I get that Buick is hot in China, but in North America....like WTF is Buick doing???!!!

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

Didnt that, like happen about 20-30 years ago?

Didnt the Lacrosse replace the old W-Body Regal and the shared old W-Body Century which replaced the FWD  A-Body and the RWD G-Body which were fused together to create the aforementioned W-Body twins?

Didnt the big Lacrosse replace the Lucerne which replaced the LeSabre and Park Ave?

Why was the Verano so phoquing close to interior dimensions as the Regal?

Why was the Verano killed off and why is this next gen Regal so phoquing close to interior dimensions as the Lacrosse?

I get that Buick is hot in China, but in North America....like WTF is Buick doing???!!!

 

Yes, all true.  And that was back when sedans sold, and now sedans are like 25% of the total market.

See the shock on my face {Not}  that there is a V6, Now the real question is how far over 300 HP did they push it. 

As for the grill change you act like that was a bad thing? It looks fine and a lot less toothy. 

The real question also is will we get the 4 door sedan here too as I see the 5 door hatch being a limited sale here. It will only be worse now there is a wagon as anyone wanting 5 doors here would opt for the better looking wagon here. Even then I see small number of sales in this CUV market. Too bad they did not have these cars 20  years ago.  Imagine this kind of car in the late 90's? 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Probably going after the Acura TLX and Maxima that offer a V6.  Eventually I bet they merge Regal and Lacrosse into one sedan, they are awfully close to each other at this point and the sales of either won't be that high.  Especially when they lose input from Opel, Buick might just go with 1 sedan and 3-4 crossovers post 2020, or maybe add a version of the Volt as their 2nd car.

I expect to meet the needs of China to have have one CUV EV and one sedan EV plus a volt type.

Who cares??? Until GM gets off its hands and lets the 3.0L TT be an actual replacement to the 3.6L I will no longer get excited. Seriously.. 335HP-340HP from the 3.6L is pointless when U can detune the 3.0L TT and have 350-400 NOW. No one cares if an engine is exclusive to Cadillac.. what they care about is if their stock engine is more powerful than the under-brands. 

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Who cares??? Until GM gets off its hands and lets the 3.0L TT be an actual replacement to the 3.6L I will no longer get excited. Seriously.. 335HP-340HP from the 3.6L is pointless when U can detune the 3.0L TT and have 350-400 NOW. No one cares if an engine is exclusive to Cadillac.. what they care about is if their stock engine is more powerful than the under-brands. 

Not to mention the 3.6 has no torque unless you wind it up to 5,000 RPM.  But in a Regal or any other front wheel driver car, over 300 hp is pointless.  Which is going to make front drive V6 cars obsolete around 2022 (maybe sooner) because turbo 4s will be able to max out what a front drive car can handle very soon.

Now if they want to make a Buick on Alpha or Omega, then different story and bring on the turbo V6.   I think Cadillac should drop the 3.6 like a sack of dirt, and go with all turbos.  And really they should have e-turbos on  the way.

3 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

See the shock on my face {Not}  that there is a V6, Now the real question is how far over 300 HP did they push it. 

As for the grill change you act like that was a bad thing? It looks fine and a lot less toothy. 

The real question also is will we get the 4 door sedan here too as I see the 5 door hatch being a limited sale here. It will only be worse now there is a wagon as anyone wanting 5 doors here would opt for the better looking wagon here. Even then I see small number of sales in this CUV market. Too bad they did not have these cars 20  years ago.  Imagine this kind of car in the late 90's? 

They did!!!!

Back then they were called OLDSMOBILE!!!

These cars that Buick got now....the Intrigue, the Alero, the Aurora were already there in their 1st generations....let us not forget that Aurora's 1st gen was in 1994 or 1995

Imagine what Olds could have done with a post bankrupt GM with a 3rd or 4rth gen Alero & Intrigue and a 5th generation Aurora with a head start of DOHC V6s that Olds offered on the 1990s as well...

Oldshurst442 is right.  The 1999-2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue had a DOHC Northstar-derived 3.5L V6.  The '98 model had the 3800 series II engine; I know because I used to own a '98 Intrigue.  The fact that the Buick Regal GS is where the Intrigue would be now if Olds made it past 2004 is mere speculation, but it is accurate to say that this could have happened.  The real issue is not whether the new Regal needs a V6 (it does) but why the LaCrosse is so similar to the Regal in terms of dimensions.  When the Lucerne and the Lacrosse were side by side seven years ago, it was obvious which car was bigger.  I fear that a LOT of current LaCrosses will be left on the dealer lots while Regals (and especially Regal GS models) literally fly off the lots.  The LaCrosse needs to be at least the size of the current Impala (or go Alpha) in order to give people a reason to buy one.

Then again, in a time where Buick has 3 crossovers, the LaCrosse may end up being the odd man out in this current environment.

5 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Oldshurst442 is right.  The 1999-2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue had a DOHC Northstar-derived 3.5L V6.  The '98 model had the 3800 series II engine; I know because I used to own a '98 Intrigue.  The fact that the Buick Regal GS is where the Intrigue would be now if Olds made it past 2004 is mere speculation, but it is accurate to say that this could have happened.  The real issue is not whether the new Regal needs a V6 (it does) but why the LaCrosse is so similar to the Regal in terms of dimensions.  When the Lucerne and the Lacrosse were side by side seven years ago, it was obvious which car was bigger.  I fear that a LOT of current LaCrosses will be left on the dealer lots while Regals (and especially Regal GS models) literally fly off the lots.  The LaCrosse needs to be at least the size of the current Impala (or go Alpha) in order to give people a reason to buy one.

Then again, in a time where Buick has 3 crossovers, the LaCrosse may end up being the odd man out in this current environment.

I would expect in these days of SUV/CUV craz that the LaCrosse is on the near future chopping block.

I hope not, if only because not everyone wants an SUV or a CUV.  It was not that long ago that Oil prices peaked at $149 a barrel, which directly led to $4-$5 a gallon for gas.  Ending the LaCrosse (and Impala) would be deeply foolish on GM's part, especially if oil prices spike again.

agree.  3.0tt would be perfect.  3.6 a good mid range motor but lack of torque an issue.

i would expect the sedan to hit here eventually but i would have no problem with a hatch on this car. or the wagon if it were de cladded.

Here are realities for the fantasies here.

While it may be true people want sedans they are still not buying them.  

The old 3.6 made torque at 3000 and up not 5000. 

The new LGZ make good low end torque with the new transmissions.

Adding a TT while fun will solve little.

I hope I am wrong but the future for the Impala and LaCrosse looks limited unless sales improve. But if trends in this segment do not improve we will see changes. They can not continue to make a buisness case for a segment at large that is stagnate. 

I do not want to see them end but the market has changed and both the Buick and Impala are both non global models and that may seal their fate. This may also account for the growth of the Regal in size.

1 hour ago, hyperv6 said:

Here are realities for the fantasies here.

While it may be true people want sedans they are still not buying them.  

The old 3.6 made torque at 3000 and up not 5000. 

The new LGZ make good low end torque with the new transmissions.

Adding a TT while fun will solve little.

I hope I am wrong but the future for the Impala and LaCrosse looks limited unless sales improve. But if trends in this segment do not improve we will see changes. They can not continue to make a buisness case for a segment at large that is stagnate. 

I do not want to see them end but the market has changed and both the Buick and Impala are both non global models and that may seal their fate. This may also account for the growth of the Regal in size.

I wouldn't call the m fantasies at all.  The GS is supposed to be a sporty model and a 3.0TT would certainly go far in giving it it's feel and flair.  he 3.6 is a fine bread and butter engine, not really that sporting, especially in FWD/AWD sedan tune.  Ford was willing to go 2.7TT/AWD in the Fusion Spot, so the Buick being basically a rebadged Malibu with a 5th door and the Impala's V6 is kind of a yawn factor, as much as the fact the Impala was starved of AWD/3.6TT from the XTS.  Impala SS anybody? 

16 minutes ago, Stew said:

  Impala SS anybody? 

Why not just use the V6TT and call is the SS, no need for the Impala label. We just have a global Chevy SS auto. 400HP  

Just now, dfelt said:

Why not just use the V6TT and call is the SS, no need for the Impala label. We just have a global Chevy SS auto. 400HP  

This is true.  And AWD to increase it's demand in colder climates.  And heck, it wouldn't really need to be certified with the EPA and XTS V-Sport already provides all the needed parts and pieces, 

1 hour ago, Stew said:

This is true.  And AWD to increase it's demand in colder climates.  And heck, it wouldn't really need to be certified with the EPA and XTS V-Sport already provides all the needed parts and pieces, 

Do people in the Snowbelt really BUY vehicles with AWD, or do they just get snow tires which would resolve traction issues?

Another question: Why is the LaCrosse not being sold in China?  An Impala-based LaCrosse would be fabulous, especially in the Middle Kingdom.

29 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Do people in the Snowbelt really BUY vehicles with AWD, or do they just get snow tires which would resolve traction issues?

Another question: Why is the LaCrosse not being sold in China?  An Impala-based LaCrosse would be fabulous, especially in the Middle Kingdom.

Maybe the Midwest and parts of East coast might not want AWD as long as they haev snow tires, but on the NW corner with all our mountains and steep hills, AWD with Snow Tires is a rockin combination for ultimate traction especially in heavy spring snow that is very wet and turns into slick compact snow / ice.

People in the snow belt buy all wheel drive in the form of a crossover.  I have heard multiple people they say they bought a crossover for the snow, and they probably didn't even consider an all wheel drive car.  

Also remember back when the Regal GS had a supercharged V6 it had 240 hp.  A turbo 4 easily beats that.  And back then a Cadillac had a V8, now they even have turbo 4's and V6s.

And the large car segment everywhere is down, as every brand made their mid size car bigger and more luxurious it made the large sedan pointless.  Plus a mid size crossover replaces a large sedan just as a small crossover is replacing mid size sedans.

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Do people in the Snowbelt really BUY vehicles with AWD, or do they just get snow tires which would resolve traction issues?

Another question: Why is the LaCrosse not being sold in China?  An Impala-based LaCrosse would be fabulous, especially in the Middle Kingdom.

Yep, there and the northern areas love AWD and are crazy for Subarus.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

People in the snow belt buy all wheel drive in the form of a crossover.  I have heard multiple people they say they bought a crossover for the snow, and they probably didn't even consider an all wheel drive car.  

Also remember back when the Regal GS had a supercharged V6 it had 240 hp.  A turbo 4 easily beats that.  And back then a Cadillac had a V8, now they even have turbo 4's and V6s.

And the large car segment everywhere is down, as every brand made their mid size car bigger and more luxurious it made the large sedan pointless.  Plus a mid size crossover replaces a large sedan just as a small crossover is replacing mid size sedans.

I see quite a few AWD cars out there, especially luxury brands. 

For those who are wondering why the Regal GS isn't likely going to get a twin-turbo V6 (either 3.0 or 3.6), may I direct your attention to this story, Holden Releases Details On the Next, Insignia-Based Commodore. There is a key detail in this story that may give you an answer.

Quote

According to media reports, Holden pushed for the V6 and all-wheel drive combination for their requirements. There were rumors of the Commodore getting a twin-turbo V6 - possibly the twin-turbo 3.0L or 3.6L from Cadillac. But that isn't going to happen for a simple reason - it can't fit in the Insignia/Commodore's platform (E2XX). 

 

4 minutes ago, William Maley said:

For those who are wondering why the Regal GS isn't likely going to get a twin-turbo V6 (either 3.0 or 3.6), may I direct your attention to this story, Holden Releases Details On the Next, Insignia-Based Commodore. There is a key detail in this story that may give you an answer.

So you build a list of requirements, why use a platform that does not support your needs? Never did understand that one.

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

So you build a list of requirements, why use a platform that does not support your needs? Never did understand that one.

 

Reading the various reports throughout the lead up to the Insignia/Commodore/Regal, my speculation is that a V6 was on the table from the beginning. The idea of a turbocharged V6 may have been floating around, but this wasn't likely in the minds of those designing the vehicles until it was too late.

But no one knows outside of GM as to why.

@William Maley Thank you, appreciate that insight.  

the thing about "large" sedans now... they are all quite similar in available space for passengers. power trains are the biggest difference between them.

is the impala pretty much the same size as the lacross?

my point, lots of overlap(generally) and the shrinking sedan segment by sales.

Mazda has 2 sedans with 2 engines. (the mazda 2 is sold as a toyota)

Chevy has ..4? with 6? engines (not including diesel) sonic, cruze, 'bu and impala.  GM can more easily do this cause of size, but i would say in the next 4 years, they'll probably need to simplify/hybridize down to ...4? engines.

will the differentiation be in the trim(price point) in the future, or something else?

3 hours ago, Stew said:

Yep, there and the northern areas love AWD and are crazy for Subarus.

I see quite a few AWD cars out there, especially luxury brands. 

Well yes, every Audi, BMW and Mercedes is all wheel drive around me (except mine is rwd).  People gobble up all wheel drive luxury sedans, and Subaru does well in Pittsburgh too.  But for mainstream cars people want the crossover. 

Thanks William.  What is the difference in physical dimensions between the 3.0T and the 3.6? 

20 hours ago, Stew said:

Thanks William.  What is the difference in physical dimensions between the 3.0T and the 3.6? 

I spent a good half-hour this morning trying to see if I could pull those measurements on GM's media site and wasn't able to find anything. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place or something else.

There's probably a pretty good amount different because of when you add in the turbo and all of the necessary plumbing and intercooler up front that's a lot of space required.

Heck, looking in the engine bay of my Focus vs Escape is like night and day. I can almost stand behind the engine in my Focus without all of the extra turbo and air plumbing not going on that the Escape had.

19 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

There's probably a pretty good amount different because of when you add in the turbo and all of the necessary plumbing and intercooler up front that's a lot of space required.

Heck, looking in the engine bay of my Focus vs Escape is like night and day. I can almost stand behind the engine in my Focus without all of the extra turbo and air plumbing not going on that the Escape had.

A lot just depends on the overall setup  A turbo 6 can be made relatively comparable in physical size to a NA 6.  Turbo and other parts could be placed in the V and the intercooler could be top mounted needing  maybe a taller  hood.  This has my interest piqued. 

GM crammed a 5.3 litre v8 in a W-body.  Its probably a case of 'we haven't made it fit YET'.  

It would behoove GM to develop something like Ford's 2.7 v6 that can be fit into a wider range of product.

I'm no engineer, but i would guess the difference in physical size between a v6 and turbo v6 has more to do with space for all the plumbing atop the block and heads.

3 hours ago, regfootball said:

GM crammed a 5.3 litre v8 in a W-body.  Its probably a case of 'we haven't made it fit YET'.  

It would behoove GM to develop something like Ford's 2.7 v6 that can be fit into a wider range of product.

I'm no engineer, but i would guess the difference in physical size between a v6 and turbo v6 has more to do with space for all the plumbing atop the block and heads.

I know I am showing my age, but for those that remember the Chevy Luv Truck of the mid to late 70's. A common thing was for us to pull the Isuzu 4 banger and install a small block V8. Totally made that truck Grease Lighting!

I agree with @regfootball GM has just not had the time or priority to see what it would take to cram the Turbo V6 into the auto.

i am of the mindset that the weight balance with a v6 and all that plumbing may be way off unless it has the AWD hardware to balance the front to back out.

I can tell you (from the Malibu) that the car is LIGHT and the Regal will be similarly light when comparing the 2.0 Malibu and 2.0 regal.  The 2.0 in the Malibu feels significantly heavier on the front end vs. the 1.5 and a v6 would feel even heavier still.  The AWD hardware probably does as much to help balance the chassis as anything.  My guess is that even a well engineered lighter v6 with turbo plumbing would still present a challenge for them to tune the suspension for balanced feel.

On 4/23/2017 at 10:42 PM, regfootball said:

i am of the mindset that the weight balance with a v6 and all that plumbing may be way off unless it has the AWD hardware to balance the front to back out.

I can tell you (from the Malibu) that the car is LIGHT and the Regal will be similarly light when comparing the 2.0 Malibu and 2.0 regal.  The 2.0 in the Malibu feels significantly heavier on the front end vs. the 1.5 and a v6 would feel even heavier still.  The AWD hardware probably does as much to help balance the chassis as anything.  My guess is that even a well engineered lighter v6 with turbo plumbing would still present a challenge for them to tune the suspension for balanced feel.

Not really sure I agree with this...I could see them getting really good chassis feel with a V6....it isn't all about weight....

On 4/18/2017 at 5:42 PM, Stew said:

Thanks William.  What is the difference in physical dimensions between the 3.0T and the 3.6? 

While I can't give you numbers. The exterior of both engines minus the turbocharging is identical. Take a 3.6, add the turbocharging kit, and it will be identical in exterior dimensions to the 3.0TT. 

5 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Not really sure I agree with this...I could see them getting really good chassis feel with a V6....it isn't all about weight....

Agreed.  The Regal GS gets the more advanced variable suspension, so they can dial that adjustment into the suspension.

8 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

While I can't give you numbers. The exterior of both engines minus the turbocharging is identical. Take a 3.6, add the turbocharging kit, and it will be identical in exterior dimensions to the 3.0TT. 

Agreed.  The Regal GS gets the more advanced variable suspension, so they can dial that adjustment into the suspension.

...and this isn't exactly going to be showing up at the local autocross to attempt spanking the GTI and the 8 speed corvette from the manual transmission thread.

Given that one needs Dramamine to properly drive a Lexus GS, and that Infinity, Acura and Lincoln don't exactly have stellar chassis tuning, I think the V6 regal will acquit itself quite well for the class.

On 4/19/2017 at 10:22 PM, dfelt said:

I know I am showing my age, but for those that remember the Chevy Luv Truck of the mid to late 70's. A common thing was for us to pull the Isuzu 4 banger and install a small block V8. Totally made that truck Grease Lighting!

I agree with @regfootball GM has just not had the time or priority to see what it would take to cram the Turbo V6 into the auto.

Knew people that had these.  i had 2 square body S-10s with 355s, miss the red regular cab one. 

49 minutes ago, Stew said:

Knew people that had these.  i had 2 square body S-10s with 355s, miss the red regular cab one. 

Those were a really cool vehicle.  Sally, girl I took to prom back when I was a junior in high school...her parents had one.  That was the first time I got to spend time with that style truck up close...Neat Truck...

Wish GM still built a small truck like that. With a 355, yours must ahve been a lot of fun!

Chevy Luv with Small Block V8. These trucks rocked and I always loved that my hood tilted forward.

Miss my little Chevy Luv Series 5. Sharp Little Trucks.

21 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Chevy Luv with Small Block V8. These trucks rocked and I always loved that my hood tilted forward.

Miss my little Chevy Luv Series 5. Sharp Little Trucks.

If they had only rust proofed them and built them out of some sort of quality steel...they were neat little trucks!

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

If they had only rust proofed them and built them out of some sort of quality steel...they were neat little trucks!

Yea, I get the rust issue, though I will say I never had a rust problem on mine. But then I am OCD about keeping my auto's clean.

1 minute ago, dfelt said:

Yea, I get the rust issue, though I will say I never had a rust problem on mine. But then I am OCD about keeping my auto's clean.

You don't live in a part of the country where using salt on the roads is part of the local religion..

2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

You don't live in a part of the country where using salt on the roads is part of the local religion..

True, salt is banned for the most part from use on roads in Washington state. Bio-Friendly ice melt is used instead.

Back on Topic, I wonder if the old Supercharged 3600 V6 would fit in the new Regal, that was a bad ass motor. Do your maintenance and it lasted for a long time.

1 minute ago, dfelt said:

True, salt is banned for the most part from use on roads in Washington state. Bio-Friendly ice melt is used instead.

Back on Topic, I wonder if the old Supercharged 3600 V6 would fit in the new Regal, that was a bad ass motor. Do your maintenance and it lasted for a long time.

I wonder if ti would pass modern emissions standards.  They ran forever....

2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I wonder if ti would pass modern emissions standards.  They ran forever....

My bet is you could bring it into compliance far more easily than you could a diesel or most turbo motors.

Just now, dfelt said:

My bet is you could bring it into compliance far more easily than you could a diesel or most turbo motors.

That would make seemingly infinite rational sense.

On 4/25/2017 at 2:10 PM, A Horse With No Name said:

Not really sure I agree with this...I could see them getting really good chassis feel with a V6....it isn't all about weight....

I am thinking about weight distribution.  the 2.0 malibu feels front heavy and unbalanced even though the front to rear is pretty close inbetween the 1.5 and 2.0.  a heavier v6 may make it even more lopsided, regardless of how well they can tune it out.