2018 Buick Enclave To Begin Just Under $41,000

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

So then what your also saying is the Benz and BMW could cut most of the cars and just keep 4 CUV's and they would be fine then.

Benze, C, E and S in Coupe, 4 door sedan and performance version along with a station wagon and AMG versions. Each lineup with a proper EV too. Then just have the GLC, GLE and GLS and drop all the GLA, CLA and G out of date wagon low selling models.

BMW 3, 5 & 7 series for coupe, 4 door sedan and performance with a station wagon and then their X3, X5 and X7 CUVs and drop all the rest of the wasteful low selling models.

C, E, and S class are each #1 selling sedan in their segment.  Mercedes will cut the SLC at the end of its cycle.  They may trim down coupe and convertible versions of the core lines.  G-Wayne sales are up and they have an all new one on sale next year, so that goes nowhere.  There is a plan for a GLB crossover with off road looks .

BMW is going to have X1 through X7.  Wouldn't surprise me if they come up with an X8 at some point.  You can have 6-8 crossovers and sell them all.  It is the only growing segment in the industry.  Sadly.

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

C, E, and S class are each #1 selling sedan in their segment.  Mercedes will cut the SLC at the end of its cycle.  They may trim down coupe and convertible versions of the core lines.  G-Wayne sales are up and they have an all new one on sale next year, so that goes nowhere.  There is a plan for a GLB crossover with off road looks .

BMW is going to have X1 through X7.  Wouldn't surprise me if they come up with an X8 at some point.  You can have 6-8 crossovers and sell them all.  It is the only growing segment in the industry.  Sadly.

In your constant praise of the Benz luxury cars and their number one sales slot...you kind of remind me of the crazy Pentecostal lady who leads worship at one of those churches where they speak in tongues and handle snakes. All she wants to do is praise the name of Jesus, and all you want to do is praise the S class.

On 6/14/2017 at 1:57 PM, A Horse With No Name said:

Sadly, yes, as the Impala is a wonderful product.

Yep, still love the styling of it, even now....

Once upon a time (I think 2005-7) somebody at Chevy wanted the marque to be trucks only (Corvette aside).  When oil prices spiked, Chevy was spared crashing sales because it had smaller cars such as the Sonic and Cruze and Trax (CUV).  Chevy may need to have another CUV or two, but hopefully the Impala is spared.  (This applies to Buick LaCrosse as well.).  In this increasingly CUV-centric market, small cars may actually be the bigger losers instead of larger cars because we as Americans tend NOT to buy subcompacts and compacts, unless gas prices are $4+ a gallon.  Even then, while BOF sales clearly suffer in the face of high gas prices, I personally doubt that CUVs will be all that negatively affected by that.  What is most likely the case is that Encores and Traxes will sell while Tahoes and Silverados sit on the dealer's lot for 200+ days at a time.

Not everyone wants a crossover; I think large cars will still be needed (though sadly not as much as they used to).  Then again, covering all the bases does make sense.

Large sedans are tanking.  These are the 2016 results and in 2017 most of these are down another 25-30% from last year's numbers.  Credit to Car and Driver for the list.   The Maximum was up to 62,000 units, it was the lone gainer.

• Chevrolet Impala down 17% to 97,006 units
• Dodge Charger down 1% to 95,437 units
• Chrysler 300 flat at 53,241 units
• Toyota Avalon down 20% to 48,080 units
• Ford Taurus down 10% to 44,098 units
• Buick LaCrosse down 34% to 27,582 units
• Hyundai Azera down 11% to 4942 units
• Kia Cadenza down 36% to 4738 units

Fun Fact, the Civic alone outsold the 8 cars on that list combined last year by over 35,000 units.  

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Fun Fact, the Civic alone outsold the 8 cars on that list combined last year by over 35,000 units.  

LINK

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Fun Fact, the Civic alone outsold the 8 cars on that list combined last year by over 35,000 units.  

Gee, an entry level low priced product outsold an expensive premium priced one. Fun fact, peanut butter and jelly are most often served with bread.  Next thing you will be telling us is that boys pee standing up and girls usually pee sitting down.

One car out selling a whole segment is a telling sign.  The Camry outsells the Avalon's whole segment also.  If you are an auto company looking at that and planning for the future, it is hard to make any commitment to the full size sedan segment.  2016 was a record sales year and those 8 cars took a dive, it is repeating this year.

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

One car out selling a whole segment is a telling sign.  The Camry outsells the Avalon's whole segment also.  If you are an auto company looking at that and planning for the future, it is hard to make any commitment to the full size sedan segment.  2016 was a record sales year and those 8 cars took a dive, it is repeating this year.

The Camry starts $8k to $10k less than the cars on that list. 

Given the falling sales of large cars, I wonder if CUV mania is also taking down other car segments in the market.  Does anyone know?

20 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Given the falling sales of large cars, I wonder if CUV mania is also taking down other car segments in the market.  Does anyone know?

I think the cheap sub-compact is next. Think about it from the manufacturer's point of view. They can sell a Sonic 5door for $14k to $17k after rebates or the can sell the virtually identical (from an engineering cost) Trax for $5k more. Ditto Fiesta / Ecosport. Ditto Dart / New Compass. If you were Mary Barra or Sergio, which would you rather sell?

3 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Given the falling sales of large cars, I wonder if CUV mania is also taking down other car segments in the market.  Does anyone know?

Mid-size sedans are down this year.  FCA is out of the segment, and the rest are hemorrhaging sales to crossovers.  The only car segment with any growth in the past year and a half is small cars (Civic, Corolla, Cruze segment)  and even now those cars aren't so small or sparsely equipped.

Small cars are still hanging on because for one it is what people can afford, and 2, compact crossovers haven't taken over yet.  Toyota is planning another crossover below Rav4, this market is about to flood.   I could see Toyota in about 5 years having Corolla, Prius, Camry (maybe Supra) as their whole car line with at least 8 crossover/SUV.  

Audi is about to have 8 crossovers by 2019 and probably the only reason they don't make 10 of them is because  they want Porsche and Bentley to sell more of them.

Just now, smk4565 said:

Mid-size sedans are down this year.  FCA is out of the segment, and the rest are hemorrhaging sales to crossovers.  The only car segment with any growth in the past year and a half is small cars (Civic, Corolla, Cruze segment)  and even now those cars aren't so small or sparsely equipped.

Small cars are still hanging on because for one it is what people can afford, and 2, compact crossovers haven't taken over yet.  Toyota is planning another crossover below Rav4, this market is about to flood.   I could see Toyota in about 5 years having Corolla, Prius, Camry (maybe Supra) as their whole car line with at least 8 crossover/SUV.  

Audi is about to have 8 crossovers by 2019 and probably the only reason they don't make 10 of them is because  they want Porsche and Bentley to sell more of them.

But the volumes (that you cherish) are going to be so low on most of those crossovers that it doesn't really matter.  I really wonder how much money can be made by having all of these different variants.  Is the 6-series GT really needed? Does it contribute anything to BMW's bottom line?  When the news came out that BMW was making that thing, I thought it was a joke at first... seriously... I thought there was an automotive equivalent of The Onion. I had forgotten (and so has everyone else) that the 5-series GT existed. 

Does BMW really need a 3GT, X4, 6GT, and X6? (most with corresponding M models) Benz is nearly as bad. 

The X4 sells about 400 a month.  The X6 sells about 1700 a month.  Are you telling me those buyers wouldn't buy some other BMW if those two models didn't exist?  The GLC Coupe and GLE Coupe are impossible to track because MBUSA lumps them in with their normal counterparts, but the GLC sells on average 4000 a month, so 10% of that being GLC Coupe sounds about right. 

The 6-series GT won't sell much, but Chevy makes a Camaro convertible, a ZL1, these are small volumes of a car, but they are profit margin.  Given the 6-series GT is a rebodied 535i for $70k, i bet there is margin to be made.  

And I don't think the volume will be low on these crossovers.  Toyota sold 70,000 RAV4's in 2004 and 2005.  In 2016 they sold 352,000.   And they are still losing out on 100,000s of sales for not having a vehicle or 2 below RAV4.  Crossovers are going world wide too, it is likely that a big company like GM, VW or Toyota could be selling over 5 million crossovers a year.  Even with 20 crossovers, that is 250,000+ per model.   

Even if Buick went from 3 crossovers to 5, all 5 would outsell Regal and Lacrosse.  There is a lot of volume left in the crossover market, the people keep buying them. 

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

...Chevy makes a Camaro convertible...

Tell me; how many Malibu's does Chevrolet sell JUST BECAUSE there's a Camaro convertible across the showroom? In hard numbers, please.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Tell me; how many Malibu's does Chevrolet sell JUST BECAUSE there's a Camaro convertible across the showroom? In hard numbers, please.

Perhaps zero.  But my point was they can make a Camaro convertible, even if they only sell 500 of them a month because the coupe paid for the car.  The 6-series GT is already paid for by the 5-series sedan, all they have to do is put a lift back on it, and a body kit on the front bumper and they are pretty much done.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Perhaps zero. 

Egg-zactly.  And THAT'S how a brand can be a 'luxury brand without a coupe & convertible'- their OTHER products can still be luxury products.

The 6-series GT is already paid for by the 5-series sedan, all they have to do is put a lift back on it, and a body kit on the front bumper and they are pretty much done.

Noooo- there are still R&D costs, certification costs, advertising costs, supplier costs... cars are not built like Legos. If the 6GT (whatever it is) loses money, it loses money. Now, a brand may choose to lose money on a vehicle, but has such a calculated risk ever been documented to have a net positive?? How would it even be possible to estimate such a thing?

Much like the fashion industry, there's an AWFUL LOT of supposing in the auto industry.

BMW is not going to lose money on a $75,000 car.  

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

BMW is not going to lose money on a $75,000 car.  

Sure they can.

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

BMW is not going to lose money on a $75,000 car.  

Then why did they discontinue the $77K 6-series coupe?

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Then why did they discontinue the $77K 6-series coupe?

Because coupes don't sell.  The Gran Coupe outsold the 6-series Coupe and convertible combined last year.  I don't think the 6-series GT is going to sell either but they won't lose money on it.  They sold over 2 million last generation 5-series.  That is huge economies of scale that pays for 90% of what is on a 6-series.

Again, why are we debating a bland and unlikeable crossover that no one here has the remotest interest in buying?  If internet threads could take Adderall this thread would need it badly.

On 6/17/2017 at 11:50 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

I think the cheap sub-compact is next. Think about it from the manufacturer's point of view. They can sell a Sonic 5door for $14k to $17k after rebates or the can sell the virtually identical (from an engineering cost) Trax for $5k more. Ditto Fiesta / Ecosport. Ditto Dart / New Compass. If you were Mary Barra or Sergio, which would you rather sell?

I agree, and it's going to be what is left of the industy's saving grace. The Sonic is the most in danger on that list simply due to the fact that it is built here (Dart is dead of course) Unless GM is okay with having another cavalier discount program, Lansing is going to have to find something new to build, and fast....

Not to be the rain on the parade, but I saw a sharp drop in auto sales soon......heck, used cars are barely moving at this point....

43 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

I agree, and it's going to be what is left of the industy's saving grace. The Sonic is the most in danger on that list simply due to the fact that it is built here (Dart is dead of course) Unless GM is okay with having another cavalier discount program, Lansing is going to have to find something new to build, and fast....

 

Not to be the rain on the parade, but I saw a sharp drop in auto sales soon......heck, used cars are barely moving at this point....

Agree...

2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Again, why are we debating a bland and unlikeable crossover that no one here has the remotest interest in buying?  If internet threads could take Adderall this thread would need it badly.

In a different situation, I could see an Enclave in my driveway to suit the other half. I prefer the looks of the new Traverse though.

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Toyota is planning another crossover below Rav4, this market is about to flood.  

I have news for you; it's already here!

6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Because coupes don't sell.  The Gran Coupe outsold the 6-series Coupe and convertible combined last year. 

But 'convertibles don't sell' (even tho you continually berate Cadillac for not having one) & the 6-series coupe outsold the 6-series convertible & 'the 5-series paid for the 6-series', so the model was free so why did BMW drop it?

[Nutso, party of one, your rubber room is ready!]

5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

In a different situation, I could see an Enclave in my driveway to suit the other half. I prefer the looks of the new Traverse though.

Odd, the new Traverse is nice but I strongly prefer the Buick.

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I have news for you; it's already here!

 

Well yes, but there is another one coming below that.  The FJ Cruiser looking thing.  

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

But 'convertibles don't sell' (even tho you continually berate Cadillac for not having one) & the 6-series coupe outsold the 6-series convertible & 'the 5-series paid for the 6-series', so the model was free so why did BMW drop it?

[Nutso, party of one, your rubber room is ready!]

I imagine there will be an 8-series convertible at the top, and 4-series convertible for lower price, plus the Z4.  Three convertibles is enough.  And the i8 is getting a convertible of some sort, maybe that will be a targa roof thing, not sure, but no one buys that car anyway.

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Well yes, but there is another one coming below that.  The FJ Cruiser looking thing.  

I imagine there will be an 8-series convertible at the top, and 4-series convertible for lower price, plus the Z4.  Three convertibles is enough.  And the i8 is getting a convertible of some sort, maybe that will be a targa roof thing, not sure, but no one buys that car anyway.

I do like the Z4.  Would take that over a Mustang convertible.