Next BMW X5 to Use Underpinnings from 7-Series

So then BMW will attempt to have an CUV to compete against Cadillacs SUV. Be interesting to see if this X7 get compared to the XT7 from Cadillac or if people look at price and compete against Escalade.

CLAR - Cluster Architecture

 

When I read that.....only one thing came to my mind...

Can you folk guess what that might have been?

Because I bought the DVD last week and we watched it another 3 times for a total of 5.

Twice in the movie theatre and thrice more at home...

CLAR does sound like a cluster of materials.  The new 7 is lighter than the previous, so I assume they will be able to used this mix material concept and cut weight on all models.  

What is interesting is that the X7 is going to be a different platform.  Maybe a Rolls-Royce platform then, but that seems odd that they wouldn't use the 7-series platform for it.  They say there will be a V12 in the X5, that won't happen, the X7 is getting a V12 though.

I would assume CLAR must be really flexible, because Mercedes builds the GLE and GLS off an SUV platform they have, it is not shared with any cars.   Thing about the Cadillac XT7 though is it is going to be Enclave based, that won't hold a candle to a rear drive V8 and V12 SUV.

-----------lSo then BMW will attempt to have an CUV to compete against Cadillacs SUV. Be interesting to see if this X7 get compared to the XT7 from Cadillac or if people look at price and compete against Escalade.

The X5 has always been a unibody RWD/AWD model, so nothing is really changing as far as it's positioning or general layout...

CLAR does sound like a cluster of materials.  The new 7 is lighter than the previous, so I assume they will be able to used this mix material concept and cut weight on all models.  

 

What is interesting is that the X7 is going to be a different platform.  Maybe a Rolls-Royce platform then, but that seems odd that they wouldn't use the 7-series platform for it.  They say there will be a V12 in the X5, that won't happen, the X7 is getting a V12 though.

 

I would assume CLAR must be really flexible, because Mercedes builds the GLE and GLS off an SUV platform they have, it is not shared with any cars.   Thing about the Cadillac XT7 though is it is going to be Enclave based, that won't hold a candle to a rear drive V8 and V12 SUV.

SMK where did you hear officially that the XT7 will be based on the Enclave? I have found nothing and heard nothing to this statement at all.

We have no idea what the new platform will be. Yes the XT7 could be a stretched bigger version of the XT5 but nothing has really been stated yet.

CLAR does sound like a cluster of materials.  The new 7 is lighter than the previous, so I assume they will be able to used this mix material concept and cut weight on all models.  

 

What is interesting is that the X7 is going to be a different platform.  Maybe a Rolls-Royce platform then, but that seems odd that they wouldn't use the 7-series platform for it.  They say there will be a V12 in the X5, that won't happen, the X7 is getting a V12 though.

 

I would assume CLAR must be really flexible, because Mercedes builds the GLE and GLS off an SUV platform they have, it is not shared with any cars.   Thing about the Cadillac XT7 though is it is going to be Enclave based, that won't hold a candle to a rear drive V8 and V12 SUV.

SMK where did you hear officially that the XT7 will be based on the Enclave? I have found nothing and heard nothing to this statement at all.

 

We have no idea what the new platform will be. Yes the XT7 could be a stretched bigger version of the XT5 but nothing has really been stated yet.

There were pics of a test mule a while back, bit there was some debate. The belief was the XT7 along with Enclave and Traverse would be on long wheel base C2xx, while Acadia and XT5 are short wheel base.

If I we're Cadillac I'd build it on Omega, make it 1,000 lbs lighter than Escalade and put a 400 hp turbo V6 and a 500 HP V8 in there.

Das ist gut, ja ???

I think it means do not expect the X5 to lose a TON of weight.

The 7 Series did not lose a lot, but that's probably a lot of weight was put back in adding tech equipment for the available features.

  Thing about the Cadillac XT7 though is it is going to be Enclave based, that won't hold a candle to a rear drive V8 and V12 SUV.

How do U kno? Just wondering. Your comment about an unknown mule means zero; and quite frankly I'm quite confident that with GM's Platform engineering even if the vehicle was on C2xx there is no guarantee that it will not run circles around the German SUVs. What Benz and BMW should really worry about, in terms of performance, is if Cadillac does use Alpha or Omega.

Cadillac should do an Alpha SUV and an Omega SUV.  GM has all these platforms, put them to use.  XT5 is already on C2xx, that is fine for competing with the Lexus RX and Lincolns and Acuras of the world, a D2xx could slot below that in the low $30s.  People buying a low $30s crossover are probably coming from a Rav4 or Ford Edge or something, they'll like the move to a fwd based crossover that drives like what they are used to but has more luxury.  With 2 front drive crossovers you cater to the sheeple that blindly buy anything that is a crossover, and with Alpha and Omega crossovers you can sell performance.

The BMW X7 is getting a V12, the only thing GM has that is close is the Z06/CTS-V engine.  They aren't going to match that V12 in smoothness or refinement, they could be close in power and torque.  

The BMW X7 is getting a V12, the only thing GM has that is close is the Z06/CTS-V engine.  They aren't going to match that V12 in smoothness or refinement, they could be close in power and torque.  

Your information, as usual, is erroneous.

BMW V-12 : 592 HP / 590 TRQ

Cadillac V : 640 HP / 630 TRQ

Already puts the smack down on the V-12, with a half-liter less displacement & 4 less cylinders. And no smoothness penalty.

BMW's 12 needs a major overhaul.

Das ist gut, ja ???

ah, there you are......tell us more

 

The BMW X7 is getting a V12, the only thing GM has that is close is the Z06/CTS-V engine.  They aren't going to match that V12 in smoothness or refinement, they could be close in power and torque.  

Your information, as usual, is erroneous.

 

BMW V-12 : 592 HP / 590 TRQ

Cadillac V : 640 HP / 630 TRQ

 

Already puts the smack down on the V-12, with a half-liter less displacement & 4 less cylinders. And no smoothness penalty.

BMW's 12 needs a major overhaul.

 

I think I read some rumor where BMW might up the power of the V12, as Rolls Royce will use it too.  But if it is the 592 of the 760 which it probably will be, that engine does make peak torque at 1,500 rpm, which is really low.  The CTS-V makes peak torque at 3,600.

Regardless though, it is physically impossible to make a V8 as smooth as a V12 or an inline six for that matter.  The V12 is the smoothest engine configuration.  

You "think" you read "some rumor"??

K.

Bottom line; for a 6.6L V-12, the power levels are rather anemic for 2016.

Regardless though, it is physically impossible to make a V8 as smooth as a V12 or an inline six for that matter.

​Point being- there is zero issue with the NVH of the 6.2 V8. Buyers aren't balancing nickels on the plastic engine covers of their shopping choices.

But the smoothest configuration of all is the V16. If anyone actually cares.

BMW's V12 is a bit weak, they should be getting more power from it, even though it is tuned for low end torque and smoothness.  Mercedes V12 is better and hasn't had a power bump in nearly a decade, although it is supposed to.    Even the Mercedes 4.0 V8 is supposed to make 577 or 612 hp next year.

 

 

The BMW X7 is getting a V12, the only thing GM has that is close is the Z06/CTS-V engine.  They aren't going to match that V12 in smoothness or refinement, they could be close in power and torque.  

Your information, as usual, is erroneous.

 

BMW V-12 : 592 HP / 590 TRQ

Cadillac V : 640 HP / 630 TRQ

 

Already puts the smack down on the V-12, with a half-liter less displacement & 4 less cylinders. And no smoothness penalty.

BMW's 12 needs a major overhaul.

 

I think I read some rumor where BMW might up the power of the V12, as Rolls Royce will use it too.  But if it is the 592 of the 760 which it probably will be, that engine does make peak torque at 1,500 rpm, which is really low.  The CTS-V makes peak torque at 3,600.

 

Regardless though, it is physically impossible to make a V8 as smooth as a V12 or an inline six for that matter.  The V12 is the smoothest engine configuration.  

 

So wait.. the BMW "only" makes it's 590 lb-ft at 1,500 rpm, and that's the most you'll ever get..... and the CTS-V makes that same 590 lb-ft at 2,000rpm and will continue to deliver another 40 lb-ft  once reaching 3,600rpm...

.

but somehow the BMW is better and has better power delivery?  What exactly have the Germans been putting in your Kool-Aid?

I didn't say better power delivery, but the BMW V12 torque hits really low so it should pull pretty well off the line.   The 600 hp comes in at 5500 rpm on the BMW also, it is hitting it's peak sooner, so that can help make up the 40 hp difference.  Not totally, but the overall power is close.  The Rolls-Royce SUV could have over 760 lb-ft of torque, that could be a whole other animal, and the BMW won't get that tune it sounds like.

The thing with the X7 V12 is what is the completion?  Mercedes could do a GLS65 and out power it.  A GLS600 Maybach would have less power.  But they haven't decided anything, and any of that would be next generation of GLS in 2019.   Cadillac could put the CTS-V engine in the Escalde, but look at the weight, at near 6,000 lbs no way would it be as fast as a unibody X7.  

And a V12 is a V12.  There is something special about that regardless of the power rating.  I am excited for the X7 in that it will force Mercedes to up their game with the GLS, but the downside is BMW is probably going to steal GLS sales.

Uh, no. That is a completely dishonest comparison..comparing when the torque peaks occur is basically immaterial. The BMW and Cadillac produce the same amount of torque within 500rpm of each other, but the Cadillac goes on to produce even more as the RPM climbs while the BMW gets left behind.

No one ever in all the history of automobiles is going to complain about 590 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm (plus more later) verses 590 lb-ft @ 1500 rpm (absolute max)... Except of course you and your badge snobbery.

Cadillac could put the CTS-V engine in the Escalade, but look at the weight, at near 6,000 lbs no way would it be as fast as a unibody X7.

Piece of cake- aftermarket tuners have built Escalades (LAST generation) going 0-60 in 3.3.

'Big E' starts @ 5550 lbs, even the straight-up 6.2L engine is 8.6 lbs/HP. 750 HP is 7.4 lbs/HP, or less than a 4700 lb V-12 SUV @ BMW.

Will they test the Escalade-V on the Nurburgring?

Will they test the Escalade-V on the Nurburgring?

I'm not 100% sure they will, but I am 100% sure it doesn't matter. The Housewives of Miami who will buy this can't even pronounce Nurburgring.

Will they test the Escalade-V on the Nurburgring?

Wtf does that matter? Why is it that everytine to get proven wrong, you completely change the subject instead of just manning up and admitting that you don't have a clue about anything that doesn't come from Germany?

Will they test the Escalade-V on the Nurburgring?

Wtf does that matter? Why is it that everytine to get proven wrong, you completely change the subject instead of just manning up and admitting that you don't have a clue about anything that doesn't come from Germany?

Damn autocorrect. Let me revise the first part.

Why is it that everytime YOU get proven wrong...

A BMW fan will argue Nurburgring = more better. I am a Mercedes fan, not a BMW fan. To me the good thing about the X7 is it pushes Mercedes to up the ante on the GLS.

Das ist gut, ja ???

Yep!   

A BMW fan will argue Nurburgring = more better. I am a Mercedes fan, not a BMW fan.

Surprised you are unaware that mercedes regularly tests upcoming models on Nurburging.

Perhaps you aren't much of a fan after all.

A BMW fan will argue Nurburgring = more better. I am a Mercedes fan, not a BMW fan. To me the good thing about the X7 is it pushes Mercedes to up the ante on the GLS.

Again, it has nothing to do with anything. No one really cares if a CUV goes to Nuremberg.

I know Mercedes tests every car they make on the Nurburgring.  But they test them in ever climate and every type of terrain too.  Some of these car companies are all about Nurburgring, I think Renault had a Meganne or Clio Sport that was the Nurburgring edition with a diagram of the track layout on the outside of the car.  

A BMW fan will argue Nurburgring = more better. I am a Mercedes fan, not a BMW fan. To me the good thing about the X7 is it pushes Mercedes to up the ante on the GLS.

BMW fans won't buy a Cadillac at any price no matter how good it is and no matter how many times it laps a BMW around the Ring. Just like you still wouldn't buy a Cadillac even if it was a rebadged S Class. You like to make up stories about why your pet brand is so much better, but you keep having to move the goal posts when Cadillac meets or exceeds them. That's what's annoying about brand fans like you. You simply cannot admit that there are areas your brand falls down in.

I know Mercedes tests every car they make on the Nurburgring.  But they test them in ever climate and every type of terrain too.  Some of these car companies are all about Nurburgring, I think Renault had a Meganne or Clio Sport that was the Nurburgring edition with a diagram of the track layout on the outside of the car.  

I will admit you are an MB fan just as I am a GM fan. Difference is I know GM has flaws and always will and need to work on them. You have yet to ever admit that MB is far from perfect and not the second coming of Christ.

I know Mercedes tests every car they make on the Nurburgring.  But they test them in ever climate and every type of terrain too.  Some of these car companies are all about Nurburgring, I think Renault had a Meganne or Clio Sport that was the Nurburgring edition with a diagram of the track layout on the outside of the car.

Please stop acting like Mercedes tests their cars in some special way because they don't. All makes do a variety of drives in many different environments.

I know Mercedes tests every car they make on the Nurburgring.  But they test them in ever climate and every type of terrain too.

General Motors created the first dedicated automotive test facility with MPG in 1924, all the divisions pounded their vehicles there constantly. Today it encompasses every terrain imaginable and is over 4000 acres.

 

I know Mercedes tests every car they make on the Nurburgring.  But they test them in ever climate and every type of terrain too.

General Motors created the first dedicated automotive test facility with MPG in 1924, all the divisions pounded their vehicles there constantly. Today it encompasses every terrain imaginable and is over 4000 acres.

 

 

But it's not "The Ring" so it doesn't count in SMKs eyes.

I am still curious as to why they would chose this platform.

With the X7 being the 3-row vehicle they want, I would guess the X5 could take a size cut or no longer offer the 3rd row option.

I am still curious as to why they would chose this platform.

 

With the X7 being the 3-row vehicle they want, I would guess the X5 could take a size cut or no longer offer the 3rd row option.

Size..  Cutting down a platform is easier than stretching one beyond its design.

The 'Ring is now 100% Russian though...or 99%

(like I give a flying #^$% what the real percentage is)

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/27/russian-billionaire-acquires-99-percent-nurburgring-stake/

The fun is over....

Why?

Ah. Well the carbon core tech has not really resulted in huge weight loss. The X5 is now a porky vehicle in its class.

And a decent set of rubber makes vehicles like XT5, MKX and hell even RX pretty close in handling numbers and perhaps even feel.

Well, anyways, I just posed a point which has zero value. But still. What I'm saying is that BMW is not going to change much, anytime soon. Though I would hope they make their vehicles more reliable. That's like they only path they still haven't blazed.

 

I know Mercedes tests every car they make on the Nurburgring.  But they test them in ever climate and every type of terrain too.

General Motors created the first dedicated automotive test facility with MPG in 1924, all the divisions pounded their vehicles there constantly. Today it encompasses every terrain imaginable and is over 4000 acres.

 

 

+1

 

 

The BMW X7 is getting a V12, the only thing GM has that is close is the Z06/CTS-V engine.  They aren't going to match that V12 in smoothness or refinement, they could be close in power and torque.  

Your information, as usual, is erroneous.

 

BMW V-12 : 592 HP / 590 TRQ

Cadillac V : 640 HP / 630 TRQ

 

Already puts the smack down on the V-12, with a half-liter less displacement & 4 less cylinders. And no smoothness penalty.

BMW's 12 needs a major overhaul.

 

I think I read some rumor where BMW might up the power of the V12, as Rolls Royce will use it too.  But if it is the 592 of the 760 which it probably will be, that engine does make peak torque at 1,500 rpm, which is really low.  The CTS-V makes peak torque at 3,600.

 

Regardless though, it is physically impossible to make a V8 as smooth as a V12 or an inline six for that matter.  The V12 is the smoothest engine configuration.  

 

Dude U really should take a spin in the new CTS-V in Touring Mode just to understand how wrong U are. Take a rich guy with U.. cause they don't just allow test drives for the sake of doing it.

While I won't claim that the LT4 is as smooth as the BMW V12, my reason for doing so is confined to the fact that I haven't tested them back to back. In driving a 760i I won;t lie.. I was certainly impressed with the NVH and power delivery.. but after driving the CTS-V for going on 3 months... I truly believe that Cadillac should forego the intro of the TTV8 they are planing and simply use the LT series engines, re-branded, as their choice of V8

Supercharging an engine I believe is superior to turbocharging. No lag, smoother power delivery and just a superior engine note.

48 Volt systems and electric turbos are on the horizon.

 

 

 

The BMW X7 is getting a V12, the only thing GM has that is close is the Z06/CTS-V engine.  They aren't going to match that V12 in smoothness or refinement, they could be close in power and torque.  

Your information, as usual, is erroneous.

 

BMW V-12 : 592 HP / 590 TRQ

Cadillac V : 640 HP / 630 TRQ

 

Already puts the smack down on the V-12, with a half-liter less displacement & 4 less cylinders. And no smoothness penalty.

BMW's 12 needs a major overhaul.

 

I think I read some rumor where BMW might up the power of the V12, as Rolls Royce will use it too.  But if it is the 592 of the 760 which it probably will be, that engine does make peak torque at 1,500 rpm, which is really low.  The CTS-V makes peak torque at 3,600.

 

Regardless though, it is physically impossible to make a V8 as smooth as a V12 or an inline six for that matter.  The V12 is the smoothest engine configuration.  

 

 

 

Dude U really should take a spin in the new CTS-V in Touring Mode just to understand how wrong U are. Take a rich guy with U.. cause they don't just allow test drives for the sake of doing it.

 

While I won't claim that the LT4 is as smooth as the BMW V12, my reason for doing so is confined to the fact that I haven't tested them back to back. In driving a 760i I won;t lie.. I was certainly impressed with the NVH and power delivery.. but after driving the CTS-V for going on 3 months... I truly believe that Cadillac should forego the intro of the TTV8 they are planing and simply use the LT series engines, re-branded, as their choice of V8

 

But a CTS is a mid-size sedan.  We are talking about a full size SUV with the X7.  Put the CTS-V engine in an Escalade ESV that is 6,000 lbs and it is a different result.  The engine would be working harder just in every day driving, more noise, more fuel burn.  But at the same time I don't think the people buying a Supercharged V8 Escalade would care if it was noisy or 10 mpg thirsty.  

I also feel like the argument of "a turbo/super charged V8 is a good as a V12" is an argument made by companies without a V12.  It is like when Lincoln tried to claim and Ecoboost V6 was better than the other luxury brands V8s.  Lincoln had to say that since they didn't have a V8 sedan.    The V12 just goes into the highest stratosphere of cars, it is the ultimate.  

As far as LT V8 vs a new line V8, that is a valid argument, since it is V8 vs V8.  Then it is just personal preference of the engineering behind it and the power delivery of the two.

It's nice to have a V12....but I kinda think that if Bentley feels like putting V8s in their behemoth, cruiser-class cruisers...I think a force-fed V8 can do a lot in even a heavy as hell Escalade.

The BMW X7 is getting a V12, the only thing GM has that is close is the Z06/CTS-V engine.  They aren't going to match that V12 in smoothness or refinement, they could be close in power and torque.

Your information, as usual, is erroneous.

 

BMW V-12 : 592 HP / 590 TRQ

Cadillac V : 640 HP / 630 TRQ

 

Already puts the smack down on the V-12, with a half-liter less displacement & 4 less cylinders. And no smoothness penalty.

BMW's 12 needs a major overhaul.

I think I read some rumor where BMW might up the power of the V12, as Rolls Royce will use it too.  But if it is the 592 of the 760 which it probably will be, that engine does make peak torque at 1,500 rpm, which is really low.  The CTS-V makes peak torque at 3,600.

 

Regardless though, it is physically impossible to make a V8 as smooth as a V12 or an inline six for that matter.  The V12 is the smoothest engine configuration.

 

 

Dude U really should take a spin in the new CTS-V in Touring Mode just to understand how wrong U are. Take a rich guy with U.. cause they don't just allow test drives for the sake of doing it.

 

While I won't claim that the LT4 is as smooth as the BMW V12, my reason for doing so is confined to the fact that I haven't tested them back to back. In driving a 760i I won;t lie.. I was certainly impressed with the NVH and power delivery.. but after driving the CTS-V for going on 3 months... I truly believe that Cadillac should forego the intro of the TTV8 they are planing and simply use the LT series engines, re-branded, as their choice of V8

But a CTS is a mid-size sedan.  We are talking about a full size SUV with the X7.  Put the CTS-V engine in an Escalade ESV that is 6,000 lbs and it is a different result.  The engine would be working harder just in every day driving, more noise, more fuel burn.  But at the same time I don't think the people buying a Supercharged V8 Escalade would care if it was noisy or 10 mpg thirsty.  

 

I also feel like the argument of "a turbo/super charged V8 is a good as a V12" is an argument made by companies without a V12.  It is like when Lincoln tried to claim and Ecoboost V6 was better than the other luxury brands V8s.  Lincoln had to say that since they didn't have a V8 sedan.    The V12 just goes into the highest stratosphere of cars, it is the ultimate.  

 

As far as LT V8 vs a new line V8, that is a valid argument, since it is V8 vs V8.  Then it is just personal preference of the engineering behind it and the power delivery of the two.

A V12 doesn't mean jack squat in this day and age, especially when there are V8s with more horsepower and torque. A V12 is nothing but a word used to sell to fools who love to part with their money. Put a hi-po V8 in there and leave the V12 badges on it and most of those people would not be able to even tell the difference.

This has a V12, and it makes 789 horsepower, 950 hp with the KERS unit.   I think that means more than jack squat.

People will buy the BMW X7 because they want a 3 row SUV and want a BMW, those people will be happy with the straight six, they just want something longer than the X5 they are trading in.  I think there will also be buyers that will buy an X7 just because it has a V12, this might be 2,000 or so units world wide, but there will probably be a $50,000 up charge for the V12, that is a crazy amount of profit margin.

This has a V12, and it makes 789 horsepower, 950 hp with the KERS unit. I think that means more than jack squat.

People will buy the BMW X7 because they want a 3 row SUV and want a BMW, those people will be happy with the straight six, they just want something longer than the X5 they are trading in.  I think there will also be buyers that will buy an X7 just because it has a V12, this might be 2,000 or so units world wide, but there will probably be a $50,000 up charge for the V12, that is a crazy amount of profit margin.

Thus supporting my statement about a fool and his money. Thanks for confirming that.

So why wouldn't Cadillac want to take fool's money?  Suppose Cadillac made an Omega crossover that was under 5,000 lbs, had a 750 hp, 750 lb-ft V12 and could do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds with a top speed of 205 mph.  Better than Corvette Z06 straight line performance in a 3 row SUV.    And they sell it for $300,000 and sell 1,000 of them a year, but make $75,000 profit on each one.  Take crazy rich people's money if you can get it.