BMW's M Division Believes Manual and Dual-Clutch Transmissions Are Coming To An End

Totally agree with what is stated here, I suspect manual will be gone in 5 years from most markets if not all. After market will be the source of parts but most just want to shift and go even in performance.

Makes sense.. It will be sad to see manuals slowly disappear.

His torque reasoning doesn't really make much sense, imo. We've had 400-600lb-ft engines here for a long-ass time to say it's difficult to make one to handle that much.

Yeah, I don't get the torque comment either. It's not like we don't already have DSGs running behind engines with 250 lbft to 400 lbft. The physical size of the engine will change, but an X3i X-Drive-E Drive-Blue CrossCoupewagon will still be putting out about that same amount of power even if it's only from a 1.5 liter engine in 2045.

This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes...again

ive driven manuals a lot and have had my fill.  if automatics deliver better mpg, shift faster, perform as good or better, and i would argue are safer, then manuals are on their death bed.

Yeah that's really a bizarre quote also the one about the shift speed automatics have always been faster shifting. What they did was built in slippage to allow for reliablity and not breaking parts. The technology and metallurgy have allowed the shift speed to reduce with out incident.

As for the shift quality of American manual transmissions I fear the Euro's might be a little limp in the wrist. Shifting modern transmissionsare far from Muncie rock crushers or BW super T10's

I loved the way a Manual Corvette shifted, I have to disagree with his comment on the rough bad manuals out of America.

15 hours ago, dfelt said:

Totally agree with what is stated here, I suspect manual will be gone in 5 years from most markets if not all. After market will be the source of parts but most just want to shift and go even in performance.

This is very correct, I think. 

9 hours ago, dfelt said:

I loved the way a Manual Corvette shifted, I have to disagree with his comment on the rough bad manuals out of America.

The roughness and ruggedness reflected some of the unsettled nature and dynamism of not just American cars but American culture.  America has never been about smooth and silky, it has always been dynamic, exciting, and a little unpredictable...

Take a look at the vintage C2 stingray and the E type Jag, the Jag is smooth as silk and the stingray is a really edgy design.

12 hours ago, regfootball said:

ive driven manuals a lot and have had my fill.  if automatics deliver better mpg, shift faster, perform as good or better, and i would argue are safer, then manuals are on their death bed.

Safer yes, especially pulling into traffic.  I loved the DSG in the TDI Jetta I sold back to Volkswagen a month of so ago...

2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

This is very correct, I think. 

The roughness and ruggedness reflected some of the unsettled nature and dynamism of not just American cars but American culture.  America has never been about smooth and silky, it has always been dynamic, exciting, and a little unpredictable...

Take a look at the vintage C2 stingray and the E type Jag, the Jag is smooth as silk and the stingray is a really edgy design.

I get the old Manuals, I grew up learning to drive in the mid 70's on a 3 on the tree and those you had to listen to the RPMs and had specific shift points. Later on, once you did have a proper experience in shifting, you could do it clutch free as you speed shift at just the right upper RPM going through the gears. I made sure both my kids knew how to drive manuals so they could drive anything. Now it is no big deal or needed.

Not only does the manual get beat in about every performance metric by the automatic but consumers aren't buying manuals either, so why spend development dollars on them.  It is like diesel, the take rate gets so low you can't justify designing and producing it.

Automatics may be better, faster and more efficient than manuals.  However, IMHO any worthwhile enthusiast will enjoy driving a manual car much more than the automatic.

As an engineer, I am all for a new technology that is better than the old one. However, for an enthusiast buying a sporty car shift speed is irrelevant (unless he is a racing pro), the enjoyment from driving a sports car is what he is spending his money on.

Regretfully, today most cars are sold based on numbers and automatics will deliver better numbers.  Also, the fact that less and less people know how to drive the manual is not helping either.

1 minute ago, ykX said:

Automatics may be better, faster and more efficient than manuals.  However, IMHO any worthwhile enthusiast will enjoy driving a manual car much more than the automatic.

As an engineer, I am all for a new technology that is better than the old one. However, for an enthusiast buying a sporty car shift speed is irrelevant (unless he is a racing pro), the enjoyment from driving a sports car is what he is spending his money on.

Regretfully, today most cars are sold based on numbers and automatics will deliver better numbers.  Also, the fact that less and less people know how to drive the manual is not helping either.

Depends on the car enthusiast, lots of enthusiasts I know like automatics.

39 minutes ago, ykX said:

Automatics may be better, faster and more efficient than manuals.  However, IMHO any worthwhile enthusiast will enjoy driving a manual car much more than the automatic.

As an engineer, I am all for a new technology that is better than the old one. However, for an enthusiast buying a sporty car shift speed is irrelevant (unless he is a racing pro), the enjoyment from driving a sports car is what he is spending his money on.

Regretfully, today most cars are sold based on numbers and automatics will deliver better numbers.  Also, the fact that less and less people know how to drive the manual is not helping either.

The only cars that need manuals are the true sports cars like Miata, Z4, BRZ, maybe a Mini-Cooper or two, and things like Mustang and Camaro.

A 328ix is best left in automatic mode as everything has been so numbed up, that shifting yourself is the least of your concerns if you want "feel".

12 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The only cars that need manuals are the true sports cars like Miata, Z4, BRZ, maybe a Mini-Cooper or two, and things like Mustang and Camaro.

A 328ix is best left in automatic mode as everything has been so numbed up, that shifting yourself is the least of your concerns if you want "feel".

When Buick builds better drivers cars than BMW....

14 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The only cars that need manuals are the true sports cars like Miata, Z4, BRZ, maybe a Mini-Cooper or two, and things like Mustang and Camaro.

A 328ix is best left in automatic mode as everything has been so numbed up, that shifting yourself is the least of your concerns if you want "feel".

Absolutely. I was talking about sports cars.

Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

When Buick builds better drivers cars than BMW....

I'd put the current GS as the only one that'd be in that category.   The Verano T-Type is dead already.... but man that was a fun car to whip around in for not a lot of money.  Most reviewers find the ATS to be a better drivers car than the equivalent BMW also. An ATS Turbo-4 is an incredibly well balance machine with excellent feel.  The ATS-V is a brute when you push it... it doesn't have the balance of the lighter Turbo-4, but it makes up for it with raw power and no-lift manual shifting (which is an amazing thing to do even if you have to retrain your brain to do it properly).

1 minute ago, ykX said:

Absolutely. I was talking about sports cars.

...and even then, local VW dealers used to keep 40 percent GTI's as manual...and Miatas were mostly manual at the local Mazda store...

Now, local Mazda dealer has tons of automatic Miatas, and less than 10 percent of GTI's stocked locally are manual...

Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

I'd put the current GS as the only one that'd be in that category.   The Verano T-Type is dead already.... but man that was a fun car to whip around in for not a lot of money.  Most reviewers find the ATS to be a better drivers car than the equivalent BMW also. An ATS Turbo-4 is an incredibly well balance machine with excellent feel.  The ATS-V is a brute when you push it... it doesn't have the balance of the lighter Turbo-4, but it makes up for it with raw power and no-lift manual shifting (which is an amazing thing to do even if you have to retrain your brain to do it properly).

Fair enough...every time I drive a newer BMW I think about what once was, and that colors my perception I think.  Bring me an E30 M3 or an E36 M3 please...

I think in the GTI's case, part of that is the DSG that VW uses.... Aside from its performance in stop-go traffic, which isn't as smooth as a regular automatic, it is faster and better than a manual in nearly all cases. No one... not even the best race car driver can out-shift a DSG. 

18 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I think in the GTI's case, part of that is the DSG that VW uses.... Aside from its performance in stop-go traffic, which isn't as smooth as a regular automatic, it is faster and better than a manual in nearly all cases. No one... not even the best race car driver can out-shift a DSG. 

...and the difference becomes even more profound with a less skilled driver, like at our local autocrosses...

31 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I think in the GTI's case, part of that is the DSG that VW uses.... Aside from its performance in stop-go traffic, which isn't as smooth as a regular automatic, it is faster and better than a manual in nearly all cases. No one... not even the best race car driver can out-shift a DSG. 

How is the shift speed relevant unless you are racing?

I know GTI has excellent DSG but GTI is also a performance hatch that most people daily drive as well.  Most likely I would buy GTI with DSG as well, but would you buy for example Miata or Vette with auto?  I know plenty of people buy Miata with auto for various reasons, but I think Miata is so much more enjoyable with the manual.

1 minute ago, ykX said:

How is the shift speed relevant unless you are racing?

I know GTI has excellent DSG but GTI is also a performance hatch that most people daily drive as well.  Most likely I would buy GTI with DSG as well, but would you buy for example Miata or Vette with auto?  I know plenty of people buy Miata with auto for various reasons, but I think Miata is so much more enjoyable with the manual.

Because people buy these cars to actually use in sanctioned competition from time to time...

5 minutes ago, ykX said:

How is the shift speed relevant unless you are racing?

I know GTI has excellent DSG but GTI is also a performance hatch that most people daily drive as well.  Most likely I would buy GTI with DSG as well, but would you buy for example Miata or Vette with auto?  I know plenty of people buy Miata with auto for various reasons, but I think Miata is so much more enjoyable with the manual.

A Miata automatic I've never driven, so I don't know it's capabilities. I'd most likely go with a manual since few out there get manual transmission feel as good as Mazda does. 

The Corvette with GM's 8-speed auto? Mmm... it's such a great transmission, considered one of the best of the true automatics, that I really wouldn't feel shame about selecting it. It really could go either way for me.

The GTI, I would probably take a manual over a DSG just because I don't like the DSG's slow speed feel. I don't auto-cross, but feel and NVH is important to me.  I say this never having driven a recent GTI with a manual. 

Corvette with an 8 speed auto would be fantastic IMHO.  Several local autocrossers autocrossed automatic corvettes and did quite well.

Would be an excellent road trip car with the 8 speed auto, i think.

Being a cheapskate, I would buy a manual GTI to avoid the $400 plus DSG transmission flush every 40,000 miles.

4 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Corvette with an 8 speed auto would be fantastic IMHO.  Several local autocrossers autocrossed automatic corvettes and did quite well.

Would be an excellent road trip car with the 8 speed auto, i think.

Being a cheapskate, I would buy a manual GTI to avoid the $400 plus DSG transmission flush every 40,000 miles.

The Corvette with an 8-speed is an absolute cuddle puppy when being driven tamely for long distance.   It is really a Jekyl and Hyde car... it can be a comfort cruiser or a nearly track ready race car. 

7 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Corvette with an 8 speed auto would be fantastic IMHO.  Several local autocrossers autocrossed automatic corvettes and did quite well.

Would be an excellent road trip car with the 8 speed auto, i think.

Being a cheapskate, I would buy a manual GTI to avoid the $400 plus DSG transmission flush every 40,000 miles.

Most people that autocross do it for fun and even pros that I know that do it on a national level don't make any money doing it.  So unless you have a specially modified pro race car and you are pro racer, seems to me pointless to buy auto just for 6-8 events you going to run a year.  In addition, most autocross courses I know - you never have to go beyond second gear, so that is one shift for the whole run, that few milliseconds you will save are absolutely irrelevant.

But again, to each its own.  

Just now, ykX said:

Most people that autocross do it for fun and even pro's that I know that do it on a national level don't make any money doing it.  So unless you have a specially modified pro race car and you are pro racer, seems to me pointless to buy auto just for 6-8 events you going to run a year.  In addition, most autocross courses I know - you never have to go beyond second gear, so that is one shift for the whole run, that few milliseconds you will save are absolutely irrelevant.

But again, to each its own.  

The point I was making is just the opposite in the case of the corvette, that one could ahve an automatic car that ones spouse, children and friends could still drive, and still enjoy it in a weekend autocross.

No real need for a manual corvette unless you just wanted to buy it that way. Plus, V8 has a wide torque curve, much less need to be in a precise gear at a specified time...

3 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Corvette with an 8-speed is an absolute cuddle puppy when being driven tamely for long distance.   It is really a Jekyl and Hyde car... it can be a comfort cruiser or a nearly track ready race car. 

Exactly, like a comfortable pair of old blue jeans....!

Well, everyone knows I own a GTI w/ DSG trans. Love it, wouldn't change it at all.

But if I were buying any sports car that offered one- and I do mean ANY- I'd take the manual. Even the 911, which has the best 'auto' in the business.

Cars like the Corvette, Mustang, and such?? Not even close. The 8AT in GM's performance cars sucks. It boggles my mind that it gets near as much praise as it does. Poor shift logic in Drive, slow/clunky downshifts, especially when using paddles, etc. Hard pass.

On 4/24/2017 at 6:48 PM, aurora97 said:

This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes...again

Love the Doors. Underrated comment.

I find it hilarious the guy throws a dig at American high-torque manuals lacking feel or shift quality when BMW has gotten criticism for their recent manuals in mainstream models like the 3-series 2.0T.

35 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Love the Doors. Underrated comment.

Indeed...

19 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I find it hilarious the guy throws a dig at American high-torque manuals lacking feel or shift quality when BMW has gotten criticism for their recent manuals in mainstream models like the 3-series 2.0T.

I don't mind thoughtful critique of domestic vehicles, but that was a cheap shot on American transmissions....

I dunno what the issue with the GM 8speed is beyond it not being a manual. I found it very capable in the ATS-V, CTS Vsports, and Corvette.

This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes...again

The horror....The horror.

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 1:42 PM, cp-the-nerd said:

Love the Doors. Underrated comment.

The Horror....The Horror.

On 4/26/2017 at 11:30 AM, Frisky Dingo said:

Well, everyone knows I own a GTI w/ DSG trans. Love it, wouldn't change it at all.

But if I were buying any sports car that offered one- and I do mean ANY- I'd take the manual. Even the 911, which has the best 'auto' in the business.

 

Cars like the Corvette, Mustang, and such?? Not even close. The 8AT in GM's performance cars sucks. It boggles my mind that it gets near as much praise as it does. Poor shift logic in Drive, slow/clunky downshifts, especially when using paddles, etc. Hard pass.

Which auto did you drive that had the 8AT that you found what you stated above? Or is this just assumption because it is not a DSG Trans and your going on others comments.

Have you actually driven the ATS-V, CTS Sport or Corvette that has that transmission? Smooth and performs extremely well. better than some german auto's.

On 4/26/2017 at 6:48 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

I dunno what the issue with the GM 8speed is beyond it not being a manual. I found it very capable in the ATS-V, CTS Vsports, and Corvette.

Any shortcomings of the GM 6 or 8 speed automatics are within reach of a simple tune to fix.

Judgement of the GM 8-speed in particular across all manner of RWD vehicles seems to depend entirely on the mood of the reviewer. I've seen everything from Cadillacs to Silverados get the full spectrum of high praise to heavy criticism from one review to the next.

On 4/25/2017 at 0:08 PM, smk4565 said:

Not only does the manual get beat in about every performance metric by the automatic but consumers aren't buying manuals either, so why spend development dollars on them.  It is like diesel, the take rate gets so low you can't justify designing and producing it.

I love how your instant response ALWAYS.. and I mean ALWAYS goes back to 0-60 times... even unsaid. Having a manual is not necessarily about performance.. but allowing the enthusiast to control, in every way, the driving characteristics of the drive. Of course U don't really strike me as a REAL enthusiast. Nonetheless.. there are maneuvers that one can do in a manual that would always result in a "shift denied" situation in a modern Manu-Matic.

As to the sales aspect.. I actually can see this point of view. With more and more of the population condensing itself into urban areas.. traffic congestion.. and such.. manuals are a real pain in the ass. I love my 7Speed in Sasha (Z) and now.. even my 4speed in Thelma (SS).. but only on backroads and open highway. The 8Speed in Rose (V) is sublime.. but despite that.. I love my 7speed all the same when traffic is no issue

12 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Any shortcomings of the GM 6 or 8 speed automatics are within reach of a simple tune to fix.

Judgement of the GM 8-speed in particular across all manner of RWD vehicles seems to depend entirely on the mood of the reviewer. I've seen everything from Cadillacs to Silverados get the full spectrum of high praise to heavy criticism from one review to the next.

It, as per my experience, depends on how one drives these vehicles from the git. I bet good money that U can take my Aline "14 Impala" and drive her after U've just driven another '14 with similar miles on the ODO and believe that U are shifting two totally different cars. That GM transmissions LEARN your driving style is not a myth in my opinion. There is no way a driver in one of them for an hour or a day can claim that the tranny is one way or another over the long run. The only real tune(out) needed in some GM trannies is the 1-4 (CAGS) program in manuals for enthusiastic driving. 

On 2017-04-25 at 1:16 PM, A Horse With No Name said:

Depends on the car enthusiast, lots of enthusiasts I know like automatics.

Yup.

I am one of these types of guys.

I could see how a manual transmission gives joy to people, I for one dont have that joy...

Yes, yes...correct gear for heading into a curve (which may mean downshifting) at the perfect angle and speed, then exiting curve and possibly up shifting...

Another scenario....downshifting to get those revs high and then blasting past another car in front of you while the engine is wailing....

Another scenario....power shifting slamming the gears into place preferably in a Ferrari style gated shifter...and the best of the best dont use a clutch....

You see....none of that does NOT amuse me...

I find joy only in the power shifting slamming the gears into place preferably in a Ferrari style gated shifter scenario...

The other scenarios...well, I am not a track car kinda guy...

And to downshift to pass a guy...well, I prefer this scenario instead.

I got me a muscle car...

A FULLSIZED one or the official mid-sized type....

IM CRUISING nice and slow! Checking to see if there are any nice females around I could honk and whistle at....(yes...in 2017 that is sexual harassment...) Maybe I stop at a burger joint and buy myself a cheeseburger and milkshake...enjoying the sun and the Rock-N-Roll tunes on the radio....or reggae or Greek music...or just the gurgling sounds of my big cubic inch V8...meaning, Im paying more attention to my surroundings rather than the road itself...I get no kicks with the race car antics at 25 MPH...then all of a sudden, a douche bag in front of me with some sort of overpriced garbage decides he wants a piece of my American metal when all I do is just mash the pedal, anticipate the kickdown and leave the phocker in my dust....all the while hearing my V8 roar to life...and no effort was given...just a slight downward motion of the accelerator pedal...

On the highway....a big American AUTOMATIC transmission V8 car = SMOOTH SAILING!!!

On the highway especially on long road trips...a manual transmission car is usually left at the top gear for long periods of time...

Besides....MOST American roads are STRAIGHT....no curves to really benefit the joys of shifting...AND...stop and go traffic puts a kink in the left foot clutch, right hand shift, left foot clutch, right hand shift, left foot clutch, right hand shift enjoyment every 2 seconds...

14 hours ago, dfelt said:

Which auto did you drive that had the 8AT that you found what you stated above? Or is this just assumption because it is not a DSG Trans and your going on others comments.

Have you actually driven the ATS-V, CTS Sport or Corvette that has that transmission? Smooth and performs extremely well. better than some german auto's.

Literally every car they put it in. Every. Single. One.

Have YOU driven them?? Because it sure sounds to me like YOU are the one just regurgitating other's thoughts in your attempt to defend GM, as usual.

I drove manuals almost 100% of the time the first 14 years I was driving.....the place i enjoyed them them most were winding, hilly backroads...the rural Ohio of my 20s, and in the mountains of Colorado in my 20s-30s.  Never enjoyed them in the city or for freeway driving.    For the daily grind which is almost always city streets and suburbia for me, automatics are just fine.    In Ohio I will likely be doing a lot more freeway driving than I did in Arizona...I only used the freeways in AZ when I was going on a road trip, and that was usually in a rental car.   I can see owning another car w/ a manual in the future, though as a fun car (besides my '87 Mustang GT, which I hope to enjoy on weekends occasionally). 

5 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

Literally every car they put it in. Every. Single. One.

 

Have YOU driven them?? Because it sure sounds to me like YOU are the one just regurgitating other's thoughts in your attempt to defend GM, as usual.

I've driven the RWD 8-speed in just about every vehicle it is available in except the mid-size trucks of which I expect to experience in 2 weeks.   Some of them on the track (non-competition) and some of them just in normal street driving. It does have different modes, one of which is granny mode, but I've never experienced what you've made claim to when setting up the car appropriately and driving it hard. 

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I've driven the RWD 8-speed in just about every vehicle it is available in except the mid-size trucks of which I expect to experience in 2 weeks.   Some of them on the track (non-competition) and some of them just in normal street driving. It does have different modes, one of which is granny mode, but I've never experienced what you've made claim to when setting up the car appropriately and driving it hard. 

It's great in the trucks.

In the performance offerings, it's a joke. Numerous sources have also criticized it for being slow to respond in manual mode, having slow/jerky downshifts, etc.

If one is available to drive on May 18th at the next event I'm going to.... I'll make sure to take note and/or video it. 

3 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

It's great in the trucks.

In the performance offerings, it's a joke. Numerous sources have also criticized it for being slow to respond in manual mode, having slow/jerky downshifts, etc.

I have to call BS.. at least the outright performance iterations I've experienced. GM Built or Aisin.. the programming was on point.. and any changes were possible on the versions I spent at least a week with. 

CTS-V

ATS-V

Z06

GS

Stingray

CTS-Vsport

Camaro SS 

CT6 "Vsport" (3.0L TT)

an example ???

"The eight-speed automatic is a pretty spectacular piece of work, and that’s coming from the Save the Manuals people. It even responds quickly to paddle-activated manual shifts" C&D

ZF's 8AT in even the most mediocre applications absolutely shames it. 

6 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I love how your instant response ALWAYS.. and I mean ALWAYS goes back to 0-60 times... even unsaid. Having a manual is not necessarily about performance.. but allowing the enthusiast to control, in every way, the driving characteristics of the drive. Of course U don't really strike me as a REAL enthusiast. Nonetheless.. there are maneuvers that one can do in a manual that would always result in a "shift denied" situation in a modern Manu-Matic.

As to the sales aspect.. I actually can see this point of view. With more and more of the population condensing itself into urban areas.. traffic congestion.. and such.. manuals are a real pain in the ass. I love my 7Speed in Sasha (Z) and now.. even my 4speed in Thelma (SS).. but only on backroads and open highway. The 8Speed in Rose (V) is sublime.. but despite that.. I love my 7speed all the same when traffic is no issue

I didn't even mention 0-60, I said "about every performance metric."  That could be 0-60, it is also 30-50 acceleration, 50-70 passing power, fuel economy, NVH, winter driving, or downhill braking where the transmission is going to downshift automatically and provide some engine braking.   The Automatic is just all around better, the human can't react or process as fast as a computer.

I get that some want to shift their own gears and be in control, and that is totally fine too, but that is a striking amount of buyers.  So for a carmaker to spend two hundred million or so on a manual transmission, that is a big waste of money if they sell 2,000 cars a year with it.

Eventually the self driving cars are going to overtake us even driving.  There are about 35,000 deaths a year due to auto accidents and about 5 million car accidents per year, costing $871 Billion according to USA Today.  This is why there is a push for autonomy, once these self driving cars are level 5, the accidents and deaths basically go away.

6 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

Literally every car they put it in. Every. Single. One.

 

Have YOU driven them?? Because it sure sounds to me like YOU are the one just regurgitating other's thoughts in your attempt to defend GM, as usual.

LOL, I spend more time than most on the lots exploring and test driving cars. They are a passion of mine and while I have not driven every single version GM has, I have driven enough to question your statements about them and have doubt about you driving every single one of them.

36 minutes ago, dfelt said:

LOL, I spend more time than most on the lots exploring and test driving cars. They are a passion of mine and while I have not driven every single version GM has, I have driven enough to question your statements about them and have doubt about you driving every single one of them.

Considering what I do for a living, that's an incredibly daft statement. Which shouldn't surprise me.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I didn't even mention 0-60, I said "about every performance metric."  That could be 0-60, it is also 30-50 acceleration, 50-70 passing power, fuel economy, NVH, winter driving, or downhill braking where the transmission is going to downshift automatically and provide some engine braking.   The Automatic is just all around better, the human can't react or process as fast as a computer.

I get that some want to shift their own gears and be in control, and that is totally fine too, but that is a striking amount of buyers.  So for a carmaker to spend two hundred million or so on a manual transmission, that is a big waste of money if they sell 2,000 cars a year with it.

Eventually the self driving cars are going to overtake us even driving.  There are about 35,000 deaths a year due to auto accidents and about 5 million car accidents per year, costing $871 Billion according to USA Today.  This is why there is a push for autonomy, once these self driving cars are level 5, the accidents and deaths basically go away.

The CTS V is a sublime automobile indeed...

7 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

Considering what I do for a living, that's an incredibly daft statement. Which shouldn't surprise me.

You could have driven everything on the list and not understood what you were driving...which I do not think is the case. You seem to have a reasonably good eye for cars, and I trust your judgement on them.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I didn't even mention 0-60, I said "about every performance metric."  That could be 0-60, it is also 30-50 acceleration, 50-70 passing power, fuel economy, NVH, winter driving, or downhill braking where the transmission is going to downshift automatically and provide some engine braking.   The Automatic is just all around better, the human can't react or process as fast as a computer.

I get that some want to shift their own gears and be in control, and that is totally fine too, but that is a striking amount of buyers.  So for a carmaker to spend two hundred million or so on a manual transmission, that is a big waste of money if they sell 2,000 cars a year with it.

Eventually the self driving cars are going to overtake us even driving.  There are about 35,000 deaths a year due to auto accidents and about 5 million car accidents per year, costing $871 Billion according to USA Today.  This is why there is a push for autonomy, once these self driving cars are level 5, the accidents and deaths basically go away.

My son works for an insurance company...he has explained to me in detail that self driving cars just have to be better than human driven ones for the cost advantage to be overwhelming.

7 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I drove manuals almost 100% of the time the first 14 years I was driving.....the place i enjoyed them them most were winding, hilly backroads...the rural Ohio of my 20s, and in the mountains of Colorado in my 20s-30s.  Never enjoyed them in the city or for freeway driving.    For the daily grind which is almost always city streets and suburbia for me, automatics are just fine.    In Ohio I will likely be doing a lot more freeway driving than I did in Arizona...I only used the freeways in AZ when I was going on a road trip, and that was usually in a rental car.   I can see owning another car w/ a manual in the future, though as a fun car (besides my '87 Mustang GT, which I hope to enjoy on weekends occasionally). 

You urgently need another fun car.

9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The CTS V is a sublime automobile indeed...

You could have driven everything on the list and not understood what you were driving...which I do not think is the case. You seem to have a reasonably good eye for cars, and I trust your judgement on them.

Not understood what I was driving? I don't even know how to answer that.