Cadillac Fully Unveils The CT5 Sedan

44 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

It is a very nice interior, but that does not negate the apparent fact that the CT5 has now equaled them in terms of looks and features. To be honest, the CTS was on par with the previous A6 too except in small areas that only interior fondlers sought out.. Like under the seat. ?

Ehhhhh.. I don't dislike the CT5's interior at all but I think that A6 just looks really fancy. 

I don't see it working the best as it looks like way too much touch-ness to work everything but I think it looks great. 

27 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So Chinese believe European imports are better than American too?   

And again, that is Cadillac’s problem to fix.  Cadillac knows they are at an immediate disadvantage when it comes to image, yet they don’t do a whole lot with their product line or marketing to correct it.  And this has been a 25 year problem.

Europeans got to China like 15 years before Caddy. Buick was there more visible than any other GM brand. Hence the reason why Buick is selling in the numbers they do. Care to argue that? I have a real question for U..  Vehicle to vehicle.. Cadillac versus a Euro.. What justifies the higher price outside of bulls#! +? 

This looks way better in person.  Again, GM cars don't seem to photograph well but look good in person. 

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

This looks way better in person.  Again, GM cars don't seem to photograph well but look good in person. 

Can't wait. Probably going on Monday. Are U there now?

4 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Can't wait. Probably going on Monday. Are U there now?

 

Yup. I'll be back there tomorrow

5 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Europeans got to China like 15 years before Caddy. Buick was there more visible than any other GM brand. Hence the reason why Buick is selling in the numbers they do. Care to argue that? I have a real question for U..  Vehicle to vehicle.. Cadillac versus a Euro.. What justifies the higher price outside of bulls#! +? 

About half of Buick’s Chinese sales are from the Excelle which competes with the Jetta and Corolla.  Buick’s China performance should be compared to VW as they operate in the same price tiers with similar products.

Lexus and Acura outsell Cadillac in the USA too, do they benefit fro the German propaganda machine? 

As for what makes the Germans better vehicle to vehicle, first is performance, example Panamera vs CT6 or X5 M vs XT6.  Next is build quality, and materials quality, next is suspension tuning, does the Escalade have active curve function that can lean the vehicle on hydraulics in a turn so it corners flat?  The GLS does.  Technology is next, the A8 is the only level 3 autonomous car on sale right now, Super Cruise is a level 2, what CT5 is getting next year is already behind Audi.  Innovation is another, the SL and S-class have 30 laser drilled holes inside the wiper blades to dispense washer fluid so the windshield is never sprayed temporarily blinding the driver, or spraying fluid over the roof or wasting washer fluid.  There is also engine refinement and interior noise level.  It is a long list.

i DO LIKE THE CTS INTERIOR, BUT....

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

About half of Buick’s Chinese sales are from the Excelle which competes with the Jetta and Corolla.  Buick’s China performance should be compared to VW as they operate in the same price tiers with similar products.

Lexus and Acura outsell Cadillac in the USA too, do they benefit fro the German propaganda machine? 

As for what makes the Germans better vehicle to vehicle, first is performance, example Panamera vs CT6 or X5 M vs XT6.  Next is build quality, and materials quality, next is suspension tuning, does the Escalade have active curve function that can lean the vehicle on hydraulics in a turn so it corners flat?  The GLS does.  Technology is next, the A8 is the only level 3 autonomous car on sale right now, Super Cruise is a level 2, what CT5 is getting next year is already behind Audi.  Innovation is another, the SL and S-class have 30 laser drilled holes inside the wiper blades to dispense washer fluid so the windshield is never sprayed temporarily blinding the driver, or spraying fluid over the roof or wasting washer fluid.  There is also engine refinement and interior noise level.  It is a long list.

Last year in China Buick sold 1.1 Million (2018). The Excelle XT/GT sold 262K. I don't what math class U took but that is not any where near half

Also Level 3 autonomy is a lawsuit waiting to happen here in the U.S. Super-Cruise, and I've tested" works extremely well, and only small improvements should be done or allowed on the streets of the United States with over 225 million actual drivers. That number blows away all of Europe in terms of possible injuries and fatalities. Are U really so much of a zealot that U believe that GM couldn't offer Level 3 or 4 if they wanted to? 

Escalade has a MRC and various other handling mechanisms that will put the Germans on notice in a cornering debate. 

Lexus and Acura benefit from a different type of propaganda machine. Altho Acura barely outsells Cadillac which up until the end of last year simply did not have the proper CUV options available. I see Cadillac (155K 2018) outselling Acura (159K 2018)  this year once the XT6 goes on line.  Also its absolutely undeniable if Cadillac had as extensive a line up as  Audi.. it would outsell it. 223K sales of Audi with 15 cars avail vs Cadillac having 6

12 hours ago, regfootball said:

 

i DO LIKE THE CTS INTERIOR, BUT....

I see it.. What of it? Both of those interiors are gorgeous.. something that many have never argued. Why is a retention of a design cue a bad idea? Are we advocating change for the sake of change? For Godsake... I see zero wrong with the retention of the dash portions.. and think they did a helluva job in integration. The goal was to bring the interiors going forward in line with the other current offering. The CT5, XT6 were supposed to recognizable as the sisters to the XT5 and XT4. I will also point out that the gear shifter and console area are literally 95% the same as well.. AGAIN.. great integration into a new design. 

12 hours ago, regfootball said:

 

i DO LIKE THE CTS INTERIOR, BUT....

Yup, Family consistency in the dash, just done better this time around with contrasting colors. I can find the same thing in MB, heck just about any European auto, Asia is where you find the really weird contrasting dash shapes.

5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yup, Family consistency in the dash, just done better this time around with contrasting colors. I can find the same thing in MB, heck just about any European auto, Asia is where you find the really weird contrasting dash shapes.

That passenger side dash trim wedge is a common motif seen on countless modern vehicles. 

5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yup, Family consistency in the dash, just done better this time around with contrasting colors. I can find the same thing in MB, heck just about any European auto, Asia is where you find the really weird contrasting dash shapes.

Its things like this that will never please everyone. I call it "nit-b!tching"

Read elsewhere where a claimed BMW owner was severely disappointed the CT5 didn't look like the Escala. Here's a quickie comparison :
 

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

Read elsewhere where a claimed BMW owner was severely disappointed the CT5 didn't look like the Escala. Here's a quickie comparison :
 

Wow.. I'm actually glad someone did that. Imagine had they simply lined up the emblems perfectly.. Its virtually the same car in front, with exception to the headlights, the bottom grille, and the hood. Its as if the Escala was a styling exercise put into context with a concept car.. then translated quite nicely into a car that was 85% its length 

Hey I just noticed that we have, in essence, the same avatar... LOL.. U should put over to of it "MiatsoCi et LovelyMoon" and it will be complete?

New BMW 330 does a 5.2 0-60 with a 2.0 liter motor and a sub 14 1/4 mile time. CT5 with its new downgraded 2.0 which has clocked out at 7.5 0-60 on a couple different tests of its similar weight Cadillac mates, no reason to expect much better than a 7.2 or 7.3 0-60 in a CT5. How do you win in the sales marketplace when you are 2 seconds behind.  

1 hour ago, regfootball said:

New BMW 330 does a 5.2 0-60 with a 2.0 liter motor and a sub 14 1/4 mile time. CT5 with its new downgraded 2.0 which has clocked out at 7.5 0-60 on a couple different tests of its similar weight Cadillac mates, no reason to expect much better than a 7.2 or 7.3 0-60 in a CT5. How do you win in the sales marketplace when you are 2 seconds behind.  

WHO CARES other than badge snobs. People buying either the BMW or Cadillac models you state are not buying them as race cars and most people cannot tell the difference between 1 or 2 seconds. I honestly see no issue with a car that reaches 60 in 5 to 8 seconds as it is quick compared to most other cars.

The bigger thing is does it feel that it gets up to highway speed quick and if that feel is there in the seat of the pants with the right luxury interior and isolation from road noise, then the auto is a success that most people will like.

I was more Meh when I first saw this, but I agree with Drew on the looks. Up close it really does have a nice clean look to it....

There is only one question that matters: will the CT5 outsell the E-series and the 5 series?  In 2020-2025? 

Cadillac has a chance, especially with this car, but I want to see sales numbers before declaring defeat at the hands of the Germans.

13 hours ago, dfelt said:

WHO CARES other than badge snobs. People buying either the BMW or Cadillac models you state are not buying them as race cars and most people cannot tell the difference between 1 or 2 seconds. I honestly see no issue with a car that reaches 60 in 5 to 8 seconds as it is quick compared to most other cars.

The bigger thing is does it feel that it gets up to highway speed quick and if that feel is there in the seat of the pants with the right luxury interior and isolation from road noise, then the auto is a success that most people will like.

that reminds of the time a few years ago when a bunch of folks here were saying that Cadillac didn't need to offer all wheel drive as an option on their rear wheel drive cars which weren't selling.  and then finally cadillac gets that all wheel drive matters and that took away the impediment to the sale.  luxury car buyers want a quick car and if the buff books or their butt in the seat tells them the car is slow, that is a big impediment to the car being purchased.  impediments that don't exist in the competition.

4 hours ago, riviera74 said:

There is only one question that matters: will the CT5 outsell the E-series and the 5 series?  In 2020-2025? 

Cadillac has a chance, especially with this car, but I want to see sales numbers before declaring defeat at the hands of the Germans.

Cadillac had / has a chance to sell many CTS if

-Cadillac improved the quaility of their interiors and leather.  (not sure in this case)

-if it has sexy styling (not sure it got that in this case, especially with the divergence from Caddy style and the wishbone / awkward c pillar treatment that is being universally commented on unfavorably on social media and web sites in many places.

-if the car leases cheap like the competition, which cadillac still doesn't get....how do they plan to move any.

-if the car has dynamic advantage or is not up to class average in either ride, handling or power.  the car should ride and handle well because Cadillac did finally condition buyers to expect that but if the luxury car buyer is not getting the same power in the entry model that the competition is then, see ya.  Caddy will way overprice the twin turbo six out of the market as well.  if it were a standalone option for not a ton more, the 6 vs. 4 choice would help them.  But they will bury the six cylinder option in a super expensive package i bet.

For the CT5 the issue is solved by simply tuning up the motor to more horsepower.  But for whatever reason GM screws up their new motor launches.  It should have specced out with at least the same or more power and torque than the motor it replaces.  They probably detuned it for CAFE reasons, which should not be a thing in a luxury marque.

CAFE is also based on sales volume, so I am not surprised that Cadillac might detune the engine for fuel economy.  This is NOT a Corvette with so few sales that it would affect CAFE number.

9 hours ago, riviera74 said:

There is only one question that matters: will the CT5 outsell the E-series and the 5 series?  In 2020-2025? 

Cadillac has a chance, especially with this car, but I want to see sales numbers before declaring defeat at the hands of the Germans.

0% chance of that happening.  From what I read, the CT5 is going to be priced like a C-class.  But even at $40k, it won't get E-class volume in the USA.  The sedan market is shrinking and Mercedes has too strong a buyer loyalty.

4 hours ago, regfootball said:

-if the car has dynamic advantage or is not up to class average in either ride, handling or power.  the car should ride and handle well because Cadillac did finally condition buyers to expect that but if the luxury car buyer is not getting the same power in the entry model that the competition is then, see ya.  Caddy will way overprice the twin turbo six out of the market as well.  if it were a standalone option for not a ton more, the 6 vs. 4 choice would help them.  But they will bury the six cylinder option in a super expensive package i bet.

For the CT5 the issue is solved by simply tuning up the motor to more horsepower.  But for whatever reason GM screws up their new motor launches.  It should have specced out with at least the same or more power and torque than the motor it replaces.  They probably detuned it for CAFE reasons, which should not be a thing in a luxury marque.

I don't think they'll overprice the V6.  My guess is turbo V6 is in the $50k range.  Although I think interiors and brand image hurt Cadillac more than the engine.  They could make the Blackwing V8 standard and price this car at $50k and the 5-series with a 250 hp 4-banger would outsell it.

28 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don't think they'll overprice the V6.  My guess is turbo V6 is in the $50k range.  Although I think interiors and brand image hurt Cadillac more than the engine.  They could make the Blackwing V8 standard and price this car at $50k and the 5-series with a 250 hp 4-banger would outsell it.

good point about the interior.  I don't think the engine would be a HUGE deal if its at least able to crack that 6.5 second 0-60 range, then its not a two second gap in 0-60, if it's within a second or so of the 330 then it shouldn't be that big of a deal.  What people don't realize in the car sales environment, numbers and specs do generate interest, and if the vehicle neither has the specs nor delivers on the test drive, then it's DOA in the market.  Which for a family sedan no one cares.  For a luxury car model line it will matter to some degree because Cadillac doesn't have a huge brand following anymore for sedans like the BMW does, it needs all the internet and real test drive cred it can muster because few other than current Cadillac fans will even care otherwise.

My guess is no ttv6 stickers for less than say 57-58 thousand.  I wish the current CTS would have had an AWD Vsport package.  That would have been insane.

Good points, Cadillac is to have improved the ride and comfort, has increased cabin space, and the dash layout looks user friendly.  Its corrected those deficiencies of the CTS, and i think that bodes well for it that way.

2 hours ago, regfootball said:

good point about the interior.  I don't think the engine would be a HUGE deal if its at least able to crack that 6.5 second 0-60 range, then its not a two second gap in 0-60, if it's within a second or so of the 330 then it shouldn't be that big of a deal.  What people don't realize in the car sales environment, numbers and specs do generate interest, and if the vehicle neither has the specs nor delivers on the test drive, then it's DOA in the market.  Which for a family sedan no one cares.  For a luxury car model line it will matter to some degree because Cadillac doesn't have a huge brand following anymore for sedans like the BMW does, it needs all the internet and real test drive cred it can muster because few other than current Cadillac fans will even care otherwise.

My guess is no ttv6 stickers for less than say 57-58 thousand.  I wish the current CTS would have had an AWD Vsport package.  That would have been insane.

Good points, Cadillac is to have improved the ride and comfort, has increased cabin space, and the dash layout looks user friendly.  Its corrected those deficiencies of the CTS, and i think that bodes well for it that way.

 

A BMW M340i and C43 AMG are both $55k.  If Cadillac is pricing CT5 like those guys, then a TT V6 CT5 needs to be in that $50k-55k range, because those cars are pretty fast.  The CT5 has interior room to sell on since it is bigger than them, but it has to match them in performance too, and the C43 is probably becoming the C53 in a couple years with the new E-class engine.

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A BMW M340i and C43 AMG are both $55k.  If Cadillac is pricing CT5 like those guys, then a TT V6 CT5 needs to be in that $50k-55k range, because those cars are pretty fast.  The CT5 has interior room to sell on since it is bigger than them, but it has to match them in performance too, and the C43 is probably becoming the C53 in a couple years with the new E-class engine.

The 3.0 is quite downgraded from power output vs. the CT6.  Torque is similar but in the Ct6 its 400hp, and in the CT5 it's like 335.  interesting move.  

Isn't that standard practice? BMW 4.4L V8 currently in production has a 100 HP & TRQ range, depending on application.
If I were buying, I'd certainly expect a power difference between in the CT6 & CT5 output.

On 4/20/2019 at 12:16 AM, dfelt said:

WHO CARES other than badge snobs. People buying either the BMW or Cadillac models you state are not buying them as race cars and most people cannot tell the difference between 1 or 2 seconds. I honestly see no issue with a car that reaches 60 in 5 to 8 seconds as it is quick compared to most other cars.

The difference is one is legitimately quick and can be enjoyed more so as a sports sedan with its base engine and the other much less so. That's a significant difference. 

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

The difference is one is legitimately quick and can be enjoyed more so as a sports sedan with its base engine and the other much less so. That's a significant difference. 

I see no mention that this is a SPORT sedan, just a sedan and for most sedan buyers, a couple seconds difference is not going to make that big of a difference to buyers. Let me know when the V-Sport shows up and then we can talk about that time again.

On 4/20/2019 at 3:51 PM, riviera74 said:

CAFE is also based on sales volume, so I am not surprised that Cadillac might detune the engine for fuel economy.  This is NOT a Corvette with so few sales that it would affect CAFE number.

In 2018, Chevy sold 7,572 more Vettes than CTS, fwiw. 

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I see no mention that this is a SPORT sedan, just a sedan and for most sedan buyers, a couple seconds difference is not going to make that big of a difference to buyers. Let me know when the V-Sport shows up and then we can talk about that time again.

So you're really going to try and say the CTS/CT5 is not a sport sedan outside of V trim? 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

In 2018, Chevy sold 7,572 more Vettes than CTS, fwiw. 

So you're really going to try and say the CTS/CT5 is not a sport sedan outside of V trim? 

Lots of things are called sport sedans that aren't. Toyota has been referring to the Avalon as a sport sedan for a number of years now.  The term gets over-used. 

Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

Lots of things are called sport sedans that aren't. Toyota has been referring to the Avalon as a sport sedan for a number of years now.  The term gets over-used. 

It is overused but an Alpha chassis sedan is pretty much the definition of a sport sedan. 

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It is overused but an Alpha chassis sedan is pretty much the definition of a sport sedan. 

Just because something has the same chassis, a sport sedan it is not.

Yes, outside of the V models, the CT5 is just a sedan. I feel this way about everything out there. Mercedes and BMW outside of the AMG or M series are just sedans.

19 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It is overused but an Alpha chassis sedan is pretty much the definition of a sport sedan. 

Would you say the same about the C-Class with the base 4-cylinder? 241hp at 5500 RPM.

The Q60, with a 208 hp Turbo-4?

The XTS V-Sport with 410hp and AWD?

Just because they're rear-wheel drive doesn't make them a sport sedan.  The Maxima is faster and has FWD and a CVT. The K900 is rear wheel drive and is a boat.

So I guess what I'm asking is... what about the Alpha makes it a sport sedan? (I'm not taking Dfelt's side here on the application of it on the CT5, I haven't driven it yet).  Suspension tuning is changeable and not platform specific. 

@ccap41 You can downvote me and that is fine, but I agree with @Drew Dowdell what about the CT5 outside of the Chassis that they are using makes it a Sports Sedan?

Sat in this car last week in NYC. Overall look and interior are definitely an improvement over the ATS/CTS.

Rear seat packaging is most improved and actually adult habitable now, unlike the sometimes "can I even put human legs back there?" of the ATS/CTS. The talk of their work to get the same dynamics but soften and refine out the ragged, harsh impact edges of the ATS/CTS to be a more refined day to day package sounds good too...

Cars are cars. No one cares, and it won't be a big market. So making 1 good one vs. 2 confusing ones is better than nothing.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Would you say the same about the C-Class with the base 4-cylinder? 241hp at 5500 RPM.

The Q60, with a 208 hp Turbo-4?

The XTS V-Sport with 410hp and AWD?

Just because they're rear-wheel drive doesn't make them a sport sedan.  The Maxima is faster and has FWD and a CVT. The K900 is rear wheel drive and is a boat.

So I guess what I'm asking is... what about the Alpha makes it a sport sedan? (I'm not taking Dfelt's side here on the application of it on the CT5, I haven't driven it yet).  Suspension tuning is changeable and not platform specific. 

Yes, they are all still riding on sporty vehicles. 

The Alpha platform is world class and is sporty as hell. All they have to do is use their fancy magnet dampers that can adjust from firm to floppy in fractions of a second, perfect.  It is also the same underpinnings as the V Series. Same sedan. Yea, they change components on the sedan but the same sedan is being used. 

Is an FRS/BRZ no longer sporty because it's slower than those listed above? Is straight line acceleration the only requirement for a sporty car? 

They seem to think it's pretty sporty. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

Yes, they are all still riding on sporty vehicles. 

The Alpha platform is world class and is sporty as hell. All they have to do is use their fancy magnet dampers that can adjust from firm to floppy in fractions of a second, perfect.  It is also the same underpinnings as the V Series. Same sedan. Yea, they change components on the sedan but the same sedan is being used. 

Is an FRS/BRZ no longer sporty because it's slower than those listed above? Is straight line acceleration the only requirement for a sporty car? 

No, that was my point and why I included the XTS-VSport. Most people don't consider any XTS to be a sport sedan. 

I just hate the proportions on the XTS so damn much. I don't even consider that a vehicle. I don't care how great it might be. It's on top of my sh!t list with the Impala and MKT. ?

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I just hate the proportions on the XTS so damn much. I don't even consider that a vehicle. I don't care how great it might be. It's on top of my sh!t list with the Impala and MKT. ?

Both the Impala and the XTS die this year.  Not sure about the MKT.

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Both the Impala and the XTS die this year.  Not sure about the MKT.

Was extended to January 2020.

Just got back from NYIAS 2019. NICE

10 hours ago, ccap41 said:

The difference is one is legitimately quick and can be enjoyed more so as a sports sedan with its base engine and the other much less so. That's a significant difference. 

Then don't buy the base engine.  If the CT5 is priced under $40k to start I don't know that a C300 or ES350 are all that fast, probably quicker than the base CT5, but I don't think those buyers care.  CT6's base engine is too weak, I agree with you there.  I think the CT5 V6 needs some quickness as it is then competing with some quick cars to capture buyers that do care more about performance.

8 hours ago, dfelt said:

@ccap41 You can downvote me and that is fine, but I agree with @Drew Dowdell what about the CT5 outside of the Chassis that they are using makes it a Sports Sedan?

I would argue Cadillac might be better served not trying to "sell" a sports sedan.  They should be promoting luxury and other attributes.  Obviously you don't want a car with sloppy handling that body rolls all over the place like an 80s Town Car, but pushing sport has got them no where over the past 15 years.

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

 

Power Trip on a 2.0 4-cylinder is laughable.  Maybe on the TT V6 they can use that, but they should have something about 30+ mpg efficiency on the base engine, with no mention of power.  This is probably why Cadillac can't sell cars, they push the 2 liter car as the fast lane, so why buy the big engine.  And no mention of efficiency for people there aren't buying it for performance.

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Then don't buy the base engine.  If the CT5 is priced under $40k to start I don't know that a C300 or ES350 are all that fast, probably quicker than the base CT5, but I don't think those buyers care.  CT6's base engine is too weak, I agree with you there.  I think the CT5 V6 needs some quickness as it is then competing with some quick cars to capture buyers that do care more about performance.

Well no sh!t. The talk was about base engines though. A base engine at BMW is a legitimately quick car while the GM one is much less so, was the comparison. 

21 hours ago, ccap41 said:

 

That statement not only makes me laugh, but I have to think it is an idiot marketing dweeb that has no fracking clue about power.

1 minute ago, dfelt said:

That statement not only makes me laugh, but I have to think it is an idiot marketing dweeb that has no fracking clue about power.

Well, it's directly on Cadillac's website. I think we all have said their marketing team has been junk at GM for awhile now. A long while. 

But no mention of MPG, marketing people say a heavy duty truck has an “efficient” V8.

Has Cadillac released MPG ratings for the CT5 yet ??

53 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Has Cadillac released MPG ratings for the CT5 yet ??

24/34 mpg rating for the CT6 with the same powertrain.  So that or better.   But no, it's not officially released yet.