Geneva 2018: Ferrari 488 Pista Comes With Tech from Race Cars

wow, talk about a compliment to ford, This looks so much like the GT. 

So Ferrari cannot create anything better than what FORD created 40+ years ago and improved in the last few versions of the GT. 

Probably be crazy priced for not that much of a special auto. Torque is pathetic compared to HP.

This thing sounds pretty crazy, I didn't think they could get that much hp or that kind of top speed out of the 488.  This thing is going to be a track monster and I think stomp on the Huracan Performante and McLaren 720S.

Hey; 211 MPH!

Just 6 MPH shy of the Hennessey Exorcist Camaro!

50 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Hey; 211 MPH!

Just 6 MPH shy of the Hennessey Exorcist Camaro!

Camaro is a steal at the price you pay for what you get compared to this over priced Italian pasta.

17 hours ago, dfelt said:

Probably be crazy priced for not that much of a special auto. Torque is pathetic compared to HP.

It's a track car + close ratio transmission.. you'll use that torque in 1st gear and she'll be screaming the rest of the time. There's no real need for gobs of torque. 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

It's a track car + close ratio transmission.. you'll use that torque in 1st gear and she'll be screaming the rest of the time. There's no real need for gobs of torque. 

I will agree to Disagree. From my own track experience, having a proper flat torque line that mirrors HP, when one goes to manuavure around another person that is in front of you, having the HP to keep momentum moving is one thing, having the torque to push you ahead at a high speed is another thing and very beneficial. Seen way too many auto's with a proper hp to torque ratio beat the high HP, low torque auto's.

Is that why most track cars aren't pushrod engines? 

Why would you need anything below 5000rpm in a car like this? It probably redlines at like 9000rpm so this lack of low end torque is meaningless in this application anyway. 

13 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Is that why most track cars aren't pushrod engines? 

Why would you need anything below 5000rpm in a car like this? It probably redlines at like 9000rpm so this lack of low end torque is meaningless in this application anyway. 

Guess we look at different track races as those supported by Asian or German auto companies use their DOHC engines and do not have the greatest track record compared to US based race teams using pushrods that do win. There is nothing that says a properly built nascar pushrod engine cannot handle 9K or even 10K rpm with a proper flat torque curve that can give extra grunt when you push a car in triple digit speeds to go even more.

I agree to disagree with you on this CCAP41.

18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Guess we look at different track races as those supported by Asian or German auto companies use their DOHC engines and do not have the greatest track record compared to US based race teams using pushrods that do win. There is nothing that says a properly built nascar pushrod engine cannot handle 9K or even 10K rpm with a proper flat torque curve that can give extra grunt when you push a car in triple digit speeds to go even more.

I agree to disagree with you on this CCAP41.

NASCAR still uses 4 spd transmissions and they NEED a broad torque curve because the gears are so long. With their oval-style racing they also have no need for a modern transmission as 95% of the tracks they just get to 4th and leave it. 

i do think they'll run up to 9500rpm on certain tracks. That's one screamin' push rod! 

I guess I don't understand what you mean by when you're in triple digits it'll give you the extra push? Your foot is on the floor and you're shifting no less than redline so a broad torque curve doesn't really mean anything at that point. 

GT350R vs Z/28 is a decent comparison. 

Z/28 vs GT350R

" From four to eight, this engine pours on the torque, but it’s rather lazy below that, in stark contrast to the LS7. But on this track, I’m never down there, so who cares? "

Guy I knew who built race Pontiacs V8s sponsored an early 70s T/A 455 car. That car turned 8900 RPM on the 1/4-mile strip, and was running somewhere in the 9's.

13 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I guess I don't understand what you mean by when you're in triple digits it'll give you the extra push? Your foot is on the floor and you're shifting no less than redline so a broad torque curve doesn't really mean anything at that point. 

It takes more work and talent to build a Pushrod that has a solid strong torque equal to HP from zero to redline and yet when you have an engine built that way, the cauto does push you back into your seat as you move ahead of a person with less torque but more HP as they are able to sustain but cannot overcome the basic inertia that resists. Sadly people have taken the focus of heavier OHC engines and gone with being a part replacement person than one that actually does the math on building an engine that has the right crank, pistons, etc. in building an engine that can and does win every day of the week. 

You have probably felt from off the line or when in someones car in the first couple gears that push in the gut as the auto accelerates with torque pushing it along. It can also be achieved in the upper gears and is a rush when your doing 100+ and you step on it and the wheels break free due to torque and you get the gut punch from the torque pushing you faster than competitor B next to you. This is why EV motors with their constant torque from zero and above just move. ICE engines can be made this same way but it take talent and a deep understanding of the whole engine build process to achieve this.

My custom 402 is built this way and truly moves even at high speed I can break the tires free though for a second before they reconnect. I have not seen this capability in the DOHC engines with high hp, low torque break free the tires in 4th, 5th, 6th gear. That torque can motivate the auto to jump ahead of the competitor when racing and get an edge. That is why I am not impressed with the low torque engines built in Europe or Asia or even in America, 

Since most driving is not racing anyway, this also gets applied to daily drivers where they should have a torque monster over high HP for moving around in local streets and highway system. I take a NA V6 with 300 lb-ft of torque and 200hp over a 300HP 267 lb-ft of torque turbo motor or DOHC application.

When you're on a race track, because the topic of the 488 Pista is a track car, how often are you starting from 0mph to feel that shove that you keep talking about? 

I think the whole race track part is what you're missing here. As a street car, I absolutely agree 100%. You want all sorts of low-mid range tq because that's what you actually use. When you're on a race track you'll be lucky to find a corner that you drop below 4-5000rpm(in a car that revs to the sky like the 488 Pista - 7500rpm is what the regular 488 redlines at). 

41 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Guy I knew who built race Pontiacs V8s sponsored an early 70s T/A 455 car. That car turned 8900 RPM on the 1/4-mile strip, and was running somewhere in the 9's.

So much America in that post. 

Pontiac

455

V8

1/4 mile

Don't know how a post about a new Ferrari veered off into vintage Pontiacs....anyway, this is the latest iteration in Ferrari mid engined models like the previous Challenge and Stradale models, of which there are race versions in one-make series (though variations of such models also compete in IMSA and WEC racing)... 

The tired old DOHC vs pushrod debate inexplicably popped up again, how is that remotely relevant?   GM is the only automaker left that has V8 engines in international competition that I know of...(Ford's GT is DOHC).  What works in NASCAR or drag racing has zero relevance to road racing, which this car is for.. 

Is the 488 street legal? Wipers, horn, lighting, etc? Yes, the article clearly states so.

The idea that's any 488 is going to be trailered to & from a track, accelerated once and then drive at redline for X laps, coast down & get reloaded into it's trailer / back to the mothballs, is delusional. Everyone knows these will be driven around on public streets, regardless of how the ferrari ad men pitch it.

ccap brought pushrods into the discussion.

Basically what I got from the discussion that everyone who buys a Ferrari is a sucker and they all have to buy a Camaro.  Right ...

Yeah, I would wage good money most people buying this car will be trailering it to and from the track. 

Just because it will be driven on public roads doesn't mean it was designed for public roads. 

Yeah, I brought up pushrods as they're the only thing comparable to the low end tq that dfelt was referring to. I didn't bring up 70's Pontiacs as they're irrelevant to the discussion. 

2 minutes ago, ykX said:

Basically what I got from the discussion that everyone who buys a Ferrari is a sucker and they all have to buy a Camaro.  Right ...

 

YUP. You better be buying The General so you can have your low end tq for the race tracks! 

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

When you're on a race track, because the topic of the 488 Pista is a track car, how often are you starting from 0mph to feel that shove that you keep talking about? 

I think the whole race track part is what you're missing here. As a street car, I absolutely agree 100%. You want all sorts of low-mid range tq because that's what you actually use. When you're on a race track you'll be lucky to find a corner that you drop below 4-5000rpm(in a car that revs to the sky like the 488 Pista - 7500rpm is what the regular 488 redlines at). 

Your missing the point, you get the shove at higher gears at higher speeds, it is NOT about starting from zero. Torque gives you that push at higher gears and speed if the motor is built to support torque through the whole rpm band. 

Too many of the High Revving DOHC engines spin and produce HP but no Torque and as such you get minimal performance boost. HP helps maintain that high speed but to accelerate fast, you need more torque.

Looks like this Ferrari has more than enough torque--look at the numbers..

• 0-62 mph in 2.8 seconds
• 0-124 mph in 7.6 seconds

^ No one can argue with those numbers!

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Just because it will be driven on public roads doesn't mean it was designed for public roads.

Yes, yes it was designed for public roads : it's street legal.

5 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Looks like this Ferrari has more than enough torque--look at the numbers..

• 0-62 mph in 2.8 seconds
• 0-124 mph in 7.6 seconds

The Corvette Z06 which is the fastest accelerating GM car, until they get the 2019 ZR1 tested, does 0-124 mph in 10.2 seconds, and that was the best number I could find, some tests are closer to 11 seconds.  A Tesla Model S with Ludicris mode takes 10.8 seconds to hit 124 mph.   This Ferrari is flying and I bet in the corners it is wicked too because it has race tech and weighs under 3,000 lbs, where a lot of these high powered super cars like an Aventator weigh 4,000 lbs.

17 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ No one can argue with those numbers!

Yes, yes it was designed for public roads : it's street legal.

Yeah, they put lights and corner markers because they had to, just like the GT. 

You know damn well this car was designed for track use. I'm not sure why there's a dispute. 

The point of contention here is one of 2 intents- that of the OEM, and that of the private owner.
Ferrari can yell all day long at how this is a track car, and the hardware very well may be there to be a serious track car. All I'm saying is- owners WILL drive these on the street, to some degree. "Designed" here is not reflective of tangible equipment, but a much more intangible 'intent'.

People will drive Demons on the street too but we know the full intent of the vehicle. 

I mean I understand what you're saying, they WILL get street time along with track time, but a car built like this has less concerns about how well it drives on the street than a race track. 

On 2/22/2018 at 12:26 PM, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

What works in NASCAR or drag racing has zero relevance to road racing, which this car is for.. 

This is completely untrue; there are loads of DOHC engines in drag racing & the equivalent of NASCAR- the valve actuators don't care if the front wheels are turning one way, both ways or steering straight.

I would imagine most people that own a Ferrari have 3-5 other cars, so they buy this for the track or for going fast on some rural road in the middle of nowhere.  They probably have a Bentley for their commuter car.

Most of these will probably never get used for what they were engineered for and instead be a conversation piece in some rich guys collection.

Could be  collector, these rare Ferraris go up in value.  

 Was working on one job, private home, circa 2002. The ex-husband pulled up to talk to the x-W, had a "Desperation Red" ferrari 355 spyder. I was out in the garage making a custom dog door for her Bull Mastiff, and there were 2 'off the boat' old Italians guys there painting (in their 60s).
When the guy came out & got into the car, I saw the 2 Italians watching the ferrari longingly from the garage. The guy cranks the sypder and it goes NeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNee and doesn't catch. One of the guys gestures toward the car and says to me in a heavy accent "Nice car, eh?"
Naturally, I'm unimpressed. "Sounds like an old Chrysler!" I say back, and they scoff at me like I'm crazy. Guy cranks the ferrari again: NeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNeeNee and it starts, sputtering a bit. "See?" I say to the painter, and he waves me off, like when spending $100K (or whatever) and getting old MoPar starter motor in your car is somehow acceptable.

Junk.