Detroit 2019: 2019 RAM HD Trucks

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I wonder when the Rivian pickup comes out how it will match up to the Ram Power Wagon,

1 minute ago, dfelt said:

I wonder when the Rivian pickup comes out how it will match up to the Ram Power Wagon,

Not even close. Completely different class of vehicle.

Hard to tell, but looking at the pics it looks like the cab and bed are carried over from the previous generation, not  using the cab and bed from the '19 1500...good looking truck, the new front is a big improvement over the pig nostril grille the Heavy Duty has used recently. 

The Rivian will be a joke next to a Power Wagon. 

Just now, ccap41 said:

The Rivian will be a joke next to a Power Wagon. 

Different market niche, pointless to compare. 

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

Different market niche, pointless to compare. 

Absolutely. 

53 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Different market niche, pointless to compare. 

52 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Absolutely. 

Is it really? Power Wagon for off road adventure, Rivian Adventure Activity Truck for living life. 

Clearly noticeable differences between the trucks, but one could make a case as to why they would compete in the same segment.

Just saying, we redefine market roles all the time. Rivian is big into the outdoors and rock climbing. markets.

Until these EV startup companies have something to sell and they pass safety requirements they're completely insignificant to me. All fluff no substance yet. 

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Until these EV startup companies have something to sell and they pass safety requirements they're completely insignificant to me. All fluff no substance yet. 

Fair enough, be interesting to see what happens in 12 months.

There still won't be a road legal version of the Rivian on the road in 12 months.. is my prediction. 

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

There still won't be a road legal version of the Rivian on the road in 12 months.. is my prediction. 

Or in 24. 

15 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The PowerWagon is a true off-road adventure vehicle. I've been in the passenger seat while the RAM rep was driving it full force taking leaps off hills with all 4 wheels off the ground. The power wagon has a remote detachable anti-roll bar, giant shocks, giant ground clearance, and a hugely strong steel frame that is used in the same trucks capable of towing 35 thousand pounds. 

No, the Rivian is not in the same class.  It's barely in the F-150's same class.  I look at it as a Honda Ridgeline EV. 

Rivian is much better looking than the Ridgeline though.

9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Rivian is much better looking than the Ridgeline though.

Plus I doubt the Ridgeline could drive through 3 feet of water or has the Frunk, cool behind seats storage place, I am thinking it is on par with the basic full size pickups and might even reach into some areas of the offroad crowd like a Z71.

Just now, dfelt said:

Plus I doubt the Ridgeline could drive through 3 feet of water or has the Frunk, cool behind seats storage place, I am thinking it is on par with the basic full size pickups and might even reach into some areas of the offroad crowd like a Z71.

Agreed. And this is what I mean by wanting new people with new ideas in the automotive marketplace.

6 hours ago, dfelt said:

Rivian is big into the outdoors and rock climbing markets.

Noooooo; the Rivian MARKETING MATERIAL is big into the outdoors.
The Rivian truck is big into the garage it was hand built in.

It seems to me the Power Wagon is country music and mud pluggin' in the rural South or Midwest, the Rivian is more urban sophistication, avocado toast on the West Coast and going to the beach and mountains there....

Anyway, a Hellcat version of Power Wagon called Mega Power Wagon would be cool...

The Hemi barely makes any more power than the 3 liter V6 in the Explorer ST.   They badly need a new V8 or some sort of boosted V6 or something to replace that severely dated engine.

1,000 lb-ft diesel engine sounds epic.  You are just wasting your time driving any vehicle with under 1,000 lb-ft of torque.

As far as electrics go, the Rivian is obviously a different class, but someone could make an electric pickup that could rival this.  Tesla and Freightliner are working on electric semi's, you can get several thousand torques from electric motors and pull anything you want.

30 HP / 60 Trq = "basically the same" ?

They badly need a new V8 or some sort of boosted V6 or something to replace that severely dated engine.

We've been over this before.  Just slip a higher tune version in if its power one is looking for- there are 4 MORE Hemi's above the base 5.7L.

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

We've been over this before.  Just slip a higher tune version in if its power one is looking for- there are 4 MORE Hemi's above the base 5.7L.

There's no vehicle they offer that has 5 HEMI options. 

No, of course not. I was saying in response to 'they need a new V8 because it barely has anymore power than a twin turbo EcoBoost', that FCA has like 5 Hemi tunes in the catalog : 375/395 HP, 475, 707, 808, 840. The Hemi is capable of delivering more HP than any other street engine out there; the engine doesn't 'end' at 375 HP. IOW; it's in no way 'outdated'.

No, but those high hp versions are only in SRT vehicles. 

Also, this is a 6.4 putting out 410hp, fwiw. 

I also don't think the phrase, "The Hemi is capable of delivering more HP than any other street engine out there" is accurate.. It isn't like the 840hp engine is just the 375hp engine with a supercharger with zero modifications done to it. They build it as necessary, as would any other company. Just in the same way GM didn't just put a massive blower on the 6.2 to make 755hp. They built the engine knowing it will be 755hp with the necessary components. 

But yes, these are dated int he sense that they aren't the most powerful(the ones not in SRTs) and they aren't efficient. They're a mix of "okay". 

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

No, but those high hp versions are only in SRT vehicles. 

Also, this is a 6.4 putting out 410hp, fwiw. 

I also don't think the phrase, "The Hemi is capable of delivering more HP than any other street engine out there" is accurate.. It isn't like the 840hp engine is just the 375hp engine with a supercharger with zero modifications done to it. They build it as necessary, as would any other company. Just in the same way GM didn't just put a massive blower on the 6.2 to make 755hp. They built the engine knowing it will be 755hp with the necessary components. 

But yes, these are dated int he sense that they aren't the most powerful(the ones not in SRTs) and they aren't efficient. They're a mix of "okay". 

Technology moves at such an incredible pace...Bolt made Volt Obsolete, and will itself become obsolete rapidly.  ICE power plants are the same ways. The days when Ford could bring out a V8 in 1932 and let it run through with minimal changes through 1953 are long gone!

IIRC current Hemi architecture has been around for awhile.

The Ford flathead indeed was around a while, tho it made significant strides during that time. It had multiple displacements, started out at the bottom with 60 HP, finished off with 125 at Ford & 154 @ Lincoln, but the architecture made a huge design change to OHV- and in 4 short years it was up to 400 HP (gross).
Are there those kinds of gains possible when you have a legitimate 700+ HP (I'll toss the Demon aside for now) tunes in productions? Is there some CNC titanium Monoblock triple OHC swirlsupercharged design good for 1200 HP that they want to chase for production?  IMO- no.

So does FCA scrap the Hemi V8, spend a 100 million to design a new V8, also IBC, also Hemi-headed? To gain what- with the same 'tune' as the current one so it'll give 425 HP instead of 375? Is that worth it? Would it be worth it if the Hemi was only -say- 5 years old?

There is 'outdated' power/performance levels, but Dodge/Ram doesn't have that problem. So we're simply talking about the date on the engine blueprint.

28 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The Ford flathead indeed was around a while, tho it made significant strides during that time. It had multiple displacements, started out at the bottom with 60 HP, finished off with 125 at Ford & 154 @ Lincoln, but the architecture made a huge design change to OHV- and in 4 short years it was up to 400 HP (gross).
Are there those kinds of gains possible when you have a legitimate 700+ HP (I'll toss the Demon aside for now) tunes in productions? Is there some CNC titanium Monoblock triple OHC swirlsupercharged design good for 1200 HP that they want to chase for production?  IMO- no.

So does FCA scrap the Hemi V8, spend a 100 million to design a new V8, also IBC, also Hemi-headed? To gain what- with the same 'tune' as the current one so it'll give 425 HP instead of 375? Is that worth it? Would it be worth it if the Hemi was only -say- 5 years old?

There is 'outdated' power/performance levels, but Dodge/Ram doesn't have that problem. So we're simply talking about the date on the engine blueprint.

But, But, But According to the master blaster of all things German and the ultimate German God of all things Auto who invented the auto industry Mercedes-benz, one should throw away a perfectly good design to change it up and let marketing tell you that a straight six turbo'd to 400HP is better than a traditional NA V8 because the Germans said so!  

They could just update them to get at least modern efficiency out of them. Is that a lot to ask for? 

The Silverado and F150 smoke the 5.7 in performance and they're the same or better in fuel economy ratings(with the 6.2 and 3.5EB). 

31 minutes ago, dfelt said:

a straight six turbo'd to 400HP is better than a traditional NA V8 because the Germans said so!

I bet if they did this people wouldn't really bat an eye and they'd love it. I don't really understand the fascination with straight 6's but it seems like people love them for some reason. 

37 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

They could just update them to get at least modern efficiency out of them. Is that a lot to ask for? 

The Silverado and F150 smoke the 5.7 in performance and they're the same or better in fuel economy ratings(with the 6.2 and 3.5EB). 

I bet if they did this people wouldn't really bat an eye and they'd love it. I don't really understand the fascination with straight 6's but it seems like people love them for some reason. 

I have driven a bunch of them that are very smooth.

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

They could just update them to get at least modern efficiency out of them. Is that a lot to ask for? 

The Silverado and F150 smoke the 5.7 in performance and they're the same or better in fuel economy ratings(with the 6.2 and 3.5EB). 

I bet if they did this people wouldn't really bat an eye and they'd love it. I don't really understand the fascination with straight 6's but it seems like people love them for some reason. 

If you ever get to drive a quality made straight 6 or 8 they are very smooth, but they take up a ton of space as to why the V design was born to save those long ass noses on auto's. Sad part is you seem to get two different camps when it comes to 4 bangers where some are silky smooth and others are very crude.

Perfect example of a crude but powerful straight 4 banger is the Olds Quad 4. I saw racing teams get 1200HP turbo'd out of that engine but it was very rough. Flip side of this is I have seen some very silky smooth V4 engines that are also very compact.

8 minutes ago, dfelt said:

If you ever get to drive a quality made straight 6 or 8 they are very smooth, but they take up a ton of space as to why the V design was born to save those long ass noses on auto's. Sad part is you seem to get two different camps when it comes to 4 bangers where some are silky smooth and others are very crude.

Perfect example of a crude but powerful straight 4 banger is the Olds Quad 4. I saw racing teams get 1200HP turbo'd out of that engine but it was very rough. Flip side of this is I have seen some very silky smooth V4 engines that are also very compact.

I've had experience w/ 3 straight 6s--Jeep's 4 liter (not smooth but mostly reliable), BMW's 3.2 and Mercedes 3.0, both of which were pretty smooth.  I like straight 6s. 

One thing I like about straight 6s is they are usually used in RWD/AWD applications where the long hood fits the RWD styling proportions.    They are usually too long to fit in transverse engine applications, where a V6 works better.

V4?  The only one I can think of was from Ford in Europe in the 60s-70s that was used in some SAABs.   Can't think of any in at least 40 years.

2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

V4?  The only one I can think of was from Ford in Europe in the 60s-70s that was used in some SAABs.   Can't think of any in at least 40 years.

One thing I like about straight 6s is they are usually used in RWD/AWD applications where the long hood fits the RWD styling proportions.    They are usually too long to fit in transverse engine applications, where a V6 works better.  

Very true, from an auto stand point I agree with you that I think the only use was in Europe, but from a motorcycle stand point many have been done and from a custom kit car stand point Motus built a silky powerful V4 off the Corvette engine design.

https://www.motusmotorcycles.com/home

Crate Motor info here:

https://rorty.net/motus-mv4r-crate-engine

Base engine is 180HP / 126 lb-ft of torque. Weird that the Torque is so low when they did in years past offer a 300+ HP and over 350 lb-ft of torque crate motor too. So not sure what has happened, but they are still around.

6 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 ..from a motorcycle stand point many have been done and from a custom kit car stand point Motus built a silky powerful V4 off the Corvette engine design.

https://www.motusmotorcycles.com/home

Crate Motor info here:

https://rorty.net/motus-mv4r-crate-engine

Base engine is 180HP / 126 lb-ft of torque. Weird that the Torque is so low when they did in years past offer a 300+ HP and over 350 lb-ft of torque crate motor too. So not sure what has happened, but they are still around.

Interesting..I just heard about that engine in a podcast, someone had installed one in a older Civic IIRC.

Is there a point where even HD truck buyers that need the diesel engine simply can use the extra grunt? What is like the maximum limit. Will they hit like 2000 torques and still have more? Or will like the universe intervene, cause a prototype engine in this class years down the line make a black hole, swallow the earth, be the truck engine of doom...

1000....

Ten 100 torques engines.... In one. 

You can't even tow anything with 100 torques.

But multiply nothing by 10, and suddenly you can tow all the American Freedom. All of it. Thirty five thouserrraand. Pounds.

Seems legit. 

You can tow/haul with shockingly low torque ratings, but you won't be going fast. Or even posted speeds. It's all about the gears.
My 1940 had a registered/loaded weight of 15,975 and only has 180 torque.

I have a 2500HD Duramax, rated at 520 torque. It's getting on it years/miles now, but judging off of that I don't think anyone 'needs' torque in a 2500 to be over 650-700. It's all a pissing match over that, IMO. Not that 'need' is the only factor driving sales, of course.

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

You can tow/haul with shockingly low torque ratings, but you won't be going fast. Or even posted speeds. It's all about the gears.
My 1940 had a registered/loaded weight of 15,975 and only has 180 torque.

I have a 2500HD Duramax, rated at 520 torque. It's getting on it years/miles now, but judging off of that I don't think anyone 'needs' torque in a 2500 to be over 650-700. It's all a pissing match over that, IMO. Not that 'need' is the only factor driving sales, of course.

We once used a pre-Powerstroke Ford F350 diesel to tow a 36,000 pound load on a trailer.  Slow going and illegal as hell, but we made it.

On 1/14/2019 at 9:02 PM, smk4565 said:

The Hemi barely makes any more power than the 3 liter V6 in the Explorer ST.   They badly need a new V8 or some sort of boosted V6 or something to replace that severely dated engine.

1,000 lb-ft diesel engine sounds epic.  You are just wasting your time driving any vehicle with under 1,000 lb-ft of torque.

As far as electrics go, the Rivian is obviously a different class, but someone could make an electric pickup that could rival this.  Tesla and Freightliner are working on electric semi's, you can get several thousand torques from electric motors and pull anything you want.

 

Every time you post something like this it makes you look dumb. You still don't know how horsepower and torque and RPM work after all these years here? @balthazar and I have failed in teaching you.

Plus, aren't all of these electronically limited in the first 2 gears so you don't get all 900-1000 torques anyway? 

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

You can tow/haul with shockingly low torque ratings, but you won't be going fast. Or even posted speeds. It's all about the gears.
My 1940 had a registered/loaded weight of 15,975 and only has 180 torque.

I have a 2500HD Duramax, rated at 520 torque. It's getting on it years/miles now, but judging off of that I don't think anyone 'needs' torque in a 2500 to be over 650-700. It's all a pissing match over that, IMO. Not that 'need' is the only factor driving sales, of course.

So True, always comes down to who has the bigger tool or is a tool.  

34 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Every time you post something like this it makes you look dumb. You still don't know how horsepower and torque and RPM work after all these years here? @balthazar and I have failed in teaching you.

On 1/14/2019 at 8:18 PM, balthazar said:

Noooooo; the Rivian MARKETING MATERIAL is big into the outdoors.
The Rivian truck is big into the garage it was hand built in.

The people that have deposits on it will go buy a Volvo SUV when no actual Trucks are built. 

Since yet another thread about fantastic, authentic American product has been muddied with mention of the "E" word, I will circle back to the original subject.  If I may, sirs.

This truck is totally bad-ass!  I would totally take a Tradesman regular cab 4X4 with chrome package and the Cummins (no "G" in Cummins) lower tune version.

The Hemi is fine in this as well, imo.  It is built for longevity and ease of service, not drag strip performance.  GM and Ford's venerable, big cube HD truck V8's are the same.  All of them do an admirable job.

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Since yet another thread about fantastic, authentic American product has been muddied with mention of the "E" word, I will circle back to the original subject.  If I may, sirs.

This truck is totally bad-ass!  I would totally take a Tradesman regular cab 4X4 with chrome package and the Cummins (no "G" in Cummins) lower tune version.

The Hemi is fine in this as well, imo.  It is built for longevity and ease of service, not drag strip performance.  GM and Ford's venerable, big cube HD truck V8's are the same.  All of them do an admirable job.

On a personal note, this is highly refreshing for me as an enthusaist to read this. 

Yes, i would totally rock this truck. I have always wanted a full size truck. 

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Since yet another thread about fantastic, authentic American product has been muddied with mention of the "E" word, I will circle back to the original subject.  If I may, sirs.

This truck is totally bad-ass!  I would totally take a Tradesman regular cab 4X4 with chrome package and the Cummins (no "G" in Cummins) lower tune version.

The Hemi is fine in this as well, imo.  It is built for longevity and ease of service, not drag strip performance.  GM and Ford's venerable, big cube HD truck V8's are the same.  All of them do an admirable job.

Yet Ram will bring this into the modern world by adding their 48V eDrive to give it the quick off the line pull as well as long life I suspect. My gut tells me the future for trucks is a mild hybrid system.

Love the thought of something that can get into the dirt, be it a Rally car or a RAM!

10 hours ago, dfelt said:

Yet Ram will bring this into the modern world by adding their 48V eDrive to give it the quick off the line pull as well as long life I suspect. My gut tells me the future for trucks is a mild hybrid system.

No mention of e-torque in the 30 minute video I watched onto the YouTube, presented by the head of Ram and a bunch of engineers who worked on this truck.

3 hours ago, ocnblu said:

No mention of e-torque in the 30 minute video I watched onto the YouTube, presented by the head of Ram and a bunch of engineers who worked on this truck.

Not Yet Skippy, but it will come. They will start with the Half Ton regular and then move it across the whole family. In 2 years, I believe all trucks will be hybrids.

If you're talking about burning fuel AND rubber, then yeah, I can see that happening.