2016 Detroit Auto Show: 2017 Lincoln Continental

 

 

 

I love that casa is allowed to get away with this trolling crap because this is a GM biased site.....and yet I get called a cheerleader.....for mentioning more Lincoln traffic at the show.

Can't make this stuff up.

Posting a preference for or against a particular product is fine. You werent being called a cheerleader for noting the Continental traffic ( which I agree was significant), you were called a cheerleader for incorrectly ascribing a cause to the difference between CT6 traffic and Continental traffic. It was bias for Continental because of your made up rationale and I called you on it.

Called me on it?

BS.

You gave me your opinion on it, which I disagreed with.

And thus far all the news I am hearing is still focused on the Conti first, and I expect that to continue....even though few at Detroit have seen the CT6. My point again, it does not stand out like the Conti.

If I agreed with your opinion, then we'd both be wrong!

By your theory, the Pacifica is even more interesting to people than Continental. Chrysler had guards up there kicking everyone but media out.

During Monday and Tuesday, most of the people in the Cobo are media or industry.. People who have been to one of the many many displays of the CT6 from the previous 10 months. The CT6 is not new to them, the Continental was less than 6 hours old at that point.

 

When I was there late Tuesday, it was mostly employees and suppliers left at the show and most of which have not seen either product yet, even though the CT6 was revealed prior. That is what I saw and commented on.  

Anyway, our opinions and your insult aside, what I took issue with recently is that casa gets away with what he got away with.  You have deleted my posts for far less.  

So now I am thinking about going into a few GM autoshow reveal threads, sharing my 'opinion' and flooding them with pics of Ford or Lincoln equivalent products.  Let's see you give that an OK.

This post was edited by me...and the song is directed towards me..

I got to know when to hold them, when to fold them, when to walk away and especially when to run...

I know how to play the game...but in this game is when I keep my mouth shut!

Contrary to what some want, I hope Lincoln keeps pricing in check, far less than CT6.  I priced a CT6 with 3.0L AWD an the top dog interior option, and it checked in at over $91,000.   I hope the Conti does not add up to more than about $75-80K.  This is getting ridiculous.  Sedans are already difficult to move due to CUV preference, so pricing like Cadillac is product suicide.  They already have a hard time moving the CTS priced much less, before discounts.  I think a base price of about $45K with the 3.7L (CTS bases with an I4....yikes) and a nicely equipped 3.0L AWD option at about $60K will really help get the traffic into showrooms and not just for CUV's.  This is the perfect stop gap before they roll out their true flagship and new platforms.

I expect the Aviator to be shown by spring.  That should help inject more excitement into the brand.

These marketing departments need to do a better job promoting sedans, or manufacturers need to make sedans more compelling.  I think crossovers in general are growing because all wheel drive and cargo space are 2 of the most desired product attributes among car buyers.  You can't get all wheel drive in a Mazda 6, Camry, Accord or Malibu, but you can in an Escape, CR-V or RAV-4.  

I think the idea of a $90k Cadillac sedan isn't crazy, but I think the CT6 as a product falls short of that price point.   $75k for a Continental is insane.  It is a front drive platform with all wheel drive and a 6-speed, even with the Ecoboost V6, it has power but not the chassis to back it up.  I think the CT6 and Continental will both fall flat in the market place because the German sedans will eat them up.  

These marketing departments need to do a better job promoting sedans, or manufacturers need to make sedans more compelling.  I think crossovers in general are growing because all wheel drive and cargo space are 2 of the most desired product attributes among car buyers.  You can't get all wheel drive in a Mazda 6, Camry, Accord or Malibu, but you can in an Escape, CR-V or RAV-4.  

 

I think the idea of a $90k Cadillac sedan isn't crazy, but I think the CT6 as a product falls short of that price point.   $75k for a Continental is insane.  It is a front drive platform with all wheel drive and a 6-speed, even with the Ecoboost V6, it has power but not the chassis to back it up.  I think the CT6 and Continental will both fall flat in the market place because the German sedans will eat them up.  

There is nothing about the Continental chassis that Audi isn't doing in some form or another. 

 

I don't know where you got this impression you seem to have that this is my first time at the rodeo. This site is going to be celebrating its 15th birthday this summer which will be its 9th year under my ownership and 14th with me as a member. I've been running forums in some form or another for over 20 years, going back to the BBS days.  You aren't even close to being the first person to threaten to troll my forums.... heck that isn't even your first threat to me.  I promise you, I can handle you and I can do a lot worse than ban you if I have to. 

 

I've been to each of the Detroit, NYC, and Chicago auto shows every year for the past 8 years and LA auto show the past 2 years.  William has been attending the shows with me for a number of years as well.  We have it down to a very efficient science for a 2 man operation. We know how these shows work. So go ahead, try to 'splain how the shows work, I'm here eagerly waiting to take notes from you. 

 

I'd like to say thank you for running the site.  I think this is the best auto discussion forum on the internet.  I like Autoblog and Worldcarfans for news, but the comments sections on some of those sites are weak.   This site is much more well rounded and covers topics on every brand too, and the auto show coverage and sales ticker numbers are always good.  I visit this site multiple times daily, I enjoy discussion, I don't mind some cheerleading, it shows passion for your favorite brand, but we don't need any attacking or trolling.

 

These marketing departments need to do a better job promoting sedans, or manufacturers need to make sedans more compelling.  I think crossovers in general are growing because all wheel drive and cargo space are 2 of the most desired product attributes among car buyers.  You can't get all wheel drive in a Mazda 6, Camry, Accord or Malibu, but you can in an Escape, CR-V or RAV-4.  

 

I think the idea of a $90k Cadillac sedan isn't crazy, but I think the CT6 as a product falls short of that price point.   $75k for a Continental is insane.  It is a front drive platform with all wheel drive and a 6-speed, even with the Ecoboost V6, it has power but not the chassis to back it up.  I think the CT6 and Continental will both fall flat in the market place because the German sedans will eat them up.  

 

There is nothing about the Continental chassis that Audi isn't doing in some form or another. 

 

But they have the longitudinal engine, 8-speed automatic (even though they bought it from ZF rather than make their own), and their C/D segment platforms are a bit more capable than the VW and A4 level stuff.   But the A6 and A8 aren't really lighting up the sales chart anyway.   The BMW and Mercedes sedans eat up the A6 and A8, and I think in part due to the rwd chassis, 50/50 weight balance, excessive nurburgringing, etc.

 

 

I don't know where you got this impression you seem to have that this is my first time at the rodeo. This site is going to be celebrating its 15th birthday this summer which will be its 9th year under my ownership and 14th with me as a member. I've been running forums in some form or another for over 20 years, going back to the BBS days.  You aren't even close to being the first person to threaten to troll my forums.... heck that isn't even your first threat to me.  I promise you, I can handle you and I can do a lot worse than ban you if I have to. 

 

I've been to each of the Detroit, NYC, and Chicago auto shows every year for the past 8 years and LA auto show the past 2 years.  William has been attending the shows with me for a number of years as well.  We have it down to a very efficient science for a 2 man operation. We know how these shows work. So go ahead, try to 'splain how the shows work, I'm here eagerly waiting to take notes from you. 

 

I'd like to say thank you for running the site.  I think this is the best auto discussion forum on the internet.  I like Autoblog and Worldcarfans for news, but the comments sections on some of those sites are weak.   This site is much more well rounded and covers topics on every brand too, and the auto show coverage and sales ticker numbers are always good.  I visit this site multiple times daily, I enjoy discussion, I don't mind some cheerleading, it shows passion for your favorite brand, but we don't need any attacking or trolling.

 

Thank you.  I do this because I enjoy it... and like you I enjoy the discussion and camaraderie we generally have around here. I've met a number of our regular members over the years. Everyone has their pet brand and that is fine and encouraged.... but don't try raise up your* own brand by putting down others... particularly if the put-down is based on false premises. 

*the general "your"

 

 

These marketing departments need to do a better job promoting sedans, or manufacturers need to make sedans more compelling.  I think crossovers in general are growing because all wheel drive and cargo space are 2 of the most desired product attributes among car buyers.  You can't get all wheel drive in a Mazda 6, Camry, Accord or Malibu, but you can in an Escape, CR-V or RAV-4.  

 

I think the idea of a $90k Cadillac sedan isn't crazy, but I think the CT6 as a product falls short of that price point.   $75k for a Continental is insane.  It is a front drive platform with all wheel drive and a 6-speed, even with the Ecoboost V6, it has power but not the chassis to back it up.  I think the CT6 and Continental will both fall flat in the market place because the German sedans will eat them up.  

 

There is nothing about the Continental chassis that Audi isn't doing in some form or another. 

 

But they have the longitudinal engine, 8-speed automatic (even though they bought it from ZF rather than make their own), and their C/D segment platforms are a bit more capable than the VW and A4 level stuff.   But the A6 and A8 aren't really lighting up the sales chart anyway.   The BMW and Mercedes sedans eat up the A6 and A8, and I think in part due to the rwd chassis, 50/50 weight balance, excessive nurburgringing, etc.

 

I find the big Audi sedans to be rather dull and lacking in gravitas... neither of which are the case for the Continental.   All-wheel drive systems these days are so advanced that it no longer matters which way the engine is facing. Even my little Encore can send 50% of the torque to the rear wheels when needed.... and I was playing in a snow covered parking lot in Detroit just to try it, I can actually kick the rear end out.   I know the XTS can do something like 90% to the rear wheels, so i fully expect the advanced Continental AWD to do the same. 

The A8 is boring, unless you like huge grilles.  To me the Continental is a bit bland.  I don't think people will say gee, I am going to pass on that Mercedes or Lexus and spend $70k on a Lincoln instead.

For me a problem is, if Lincoln is going to cut corners on the chassis and transmission, by recycling from the Fusion parts bin, where else did they cut?  And even if they didn't and did the best interior and the best seats, etc, it is like having the nicest 2nd floor possible on a house with a weak foundation.

These marketing departments need to do a better job promoting sedans, or manufacturers need to make sedans more compelling.  I think crossovers in general are growing because all wheel drive and cargo space are 2 of the most desired product attributes among car buyers.  You can't get all wheel drive in a Mazda 6, Camry, Accord or Malibu, but you can in an Escape, CR-V or RAV-4.  

 

I think the idea of a $90k Cadillac sedan isn't crazy, but I think the CT6 as a product falls short of that price point.   $75k for a Continental is insane.  It is a front drive platform with all wheel drive and a 6-speed, even with the Ecoboost V6, it has power but not the chassis to back it up.  I think the CT6 and Continental will both fall flat in the market place because the German sedans will eat them up.

 

There is nothing about the Continental chassis that Audi isn't doing in some form or another.

But they have the longitudinal engine, 8-speed automatic (even though they bought it from ZF rather than make their own), and their C/D segment platforms are a bit more capable than the VW and A4 level stuff.   But the A6 and A8 aren't really lighting up the sales chart anyway.   The BMW and Mercedes sedans eat up the A6 and A8, and I think in part due to the rwd chassis, 50/50 weight balance, excessive nurburgringing, etc.

 

I find the big Audi sedans to be rather dull and lacking in gravitas... neither of which are the case for the Continental.   All-wheel drive systems these days are so advanced that it no longer matters which way the engine is facing. Even my little Encore can send 50% of the torque to the rear wheels when needed.... and I was playing in a snow covered parking lot in Detroit just to try it, I can actually kick the rear end out.   I know the XTS can do something like 90% to the rear wheels, so i fully expect the advanced Continental AWD to do the same.

If the Continental can generate the same gravitas that Drew mentioned, then it's done it's job.

The XTS with AWD and VSport is a pretty nice vehicle. 

And this should just build on even further, with the trick AWD system and genuinely nice interior, worthy of being in any luxury sedan of that size. Forget the personal subjective design preference - they have the materials locked down, and Mercedes would be envious, heck even Bentley would be wishing for 30 way power seats. 

May the Chinese Aristocrat get fully aroused, then thusly Lincoln's pedigree would be revived by a cross continent market. Maybe that's why they chose the Continental name. 

The A8 is boring, unless you like huge grilles.  To me the Continental is a bit bland.  I don't think people will say gee, I am going to pass on that Mercedes or Lexus and spend $70k on a Lincoln instead.

 

For me a problem is, if Lincoln is going to cut corners on the chassis and transmission, by recycling from the Fusion parts bin, where else did they cut?  And even if they didn't and did the best interior and the best seats, etc, it is like having the nicest 2nd floor possible on a house with a weak foundation.

And I'll ask again, what Fusion parts do you see on there?  I didn't notice any. 

 

 

 

 

These marketing departments need to do a better job promoting sedans, or manufacturers need to make sedans more compelling.  I think crossovers in general are growing because all wheel drive and cargo space are 2 of the most desired product attributes among car buyers.  You can't get all wheel drive in a Mazda 6, Camry, Accord or Malibu, but you can in an Escape, CR-V or RAV-4.  

 

I think the idea of a $90k Cadillac sedan isn't crazy, but I think the CT6 as a product falls short of that price point.   $75k for a Continental is insane.  It is a front drive platform with all wheel drive and a 6-speed, even with the Ecoboost V6, it has power but not the chassis to back it up.  I think the CT6 and Continental will both fall flat in the market place because the German sedans will eat them up.

 

There is nothing about the Continental chassis that Audi isn't doing in some form or another.

But they have the longitudinal engine, 8-speed automatic (even though they bought it from ZF rather than make their own), and their C/D segment platforms are a bit more capable than the VW and A4 level stuff.   But the A6 and A8 aren't really lighting up the sales chart anyway.   The BMW and Mercedes sedans eat up the A6 and A8, and I think in part due to the rwd chassis, 50/50 weight balance, excessive nurburgringing, etc.

 

I find the big Audi sedans to be rather dull and lacking in gravitas... neither of which are the case for the Continental.   All-wheel drive systems these days are so advanced that it no longer matters which way the engine is facing. Even my little Encore can send 50% of the torque to the rear wheels when needed.... and I was playing in a snow covered parking lot in Detroit just to try it, I can actually kick the rear end out.   I know the XTS can do something like 90% to the rear wheels, so i fully expect the advanced Continental AWD to do the same.

I could very well be wrong but can't the new trick system in the RS send up to 100% to an individual wheel?

 

I don't remember for sure and I haven't had my tea yet... but I believe you are right.  If not to an individual wheel, at least 100% to the rear wheels.

I don't know where you got this impression you seem to have that this is my first time at the rodeo. This site is going to be celebrating its 15th birthday this summer which will be its 9th year under my ownership and 14th with me as a member. I've been running forums in some form or another for over 20 years, going back to the BBS days.  You aren't even close to being the first person to threaten to troll my forums.... heck that isn't even your first threat to me.  I promise you, I can handle you and I can do a lot worse than ban you if I have to...

 

Thank you.  I do this because I enjoy it... and like you I enjoy the discussion and camaraderie we generally have around here. I've met a number of our regular members over the years. Everyone has their pet brand and that is fine and encouraged.... but don't try raise up your* own brand by putting down others... particularly if the put-down is based on false premises. 

 

*the general "your"

First of all, if multiple threats against you don't constitute banning, nothing does.

Second, do not insult the intelligence of your good posters by trying to insinuate that they had ANYTHING to do with the post I called in yesterday. It was completely unprovoked.

I've been laying low because I wanted to see if the problem would get fixed. It's been quiet so far. We shall see.

 

 

 

 

Called me on it?

BS.

You gave me your opinion on it, which I disagreed with.

And thus far all the news I am hearing is still focused on the Conti first, and I expect that to continue....even though few at Detroit have seen the CT6. My point again, it does not stand out like the Conti.

If I agreed with your opinion, then we'd both be wrong!

By your theory, the Pacifica is even more interesting to people than Continental. Chrysler had guards up there kicking everyone but media out.

During Monday and Tuesday, most of the people in the Cobo are media or industry.. People who have been to one of the many many displays of the CT6 from the previous 10 months. The CT6 is not new to them, the Continental was less than 6 hours old at that point.

 

 

When I was there late Tuesday, it was mostly employees and suppliers left at the show and most of which have not seen either product yet, even though the CT6 was revealed prior. That is what I saw and commented on.  

 

Anyway, our opinions and your insult aside, what I took issue with recently is that casa gets away with what he got away with.  You have deleted my posts for far less.  

 

So now I am thinking about going into a few GM autoshow reveal threads, sharing my 'opinion' and flooding them with pics of Ford or Lincoln equivalent products.  Let's see you give that an OK.

 

 

I don't know where you got this impression you seem to have that this is my first time at the rodeo. This site is going to be celebrating its 15th birthday this summer which will be its 9th year under my ownership and 14th with me as a member. I've been running forums in some form or another for over 20 years, going back to the BBS days.  You aren't even close to being the first person to threaten to troll my forums.... heck that isn't even your first threat to me.  I promise you, I can handle you and I can do a lot worse than ban you if I have to. 

 

I've been to each of the Detroit, NYC, and Chicago auto shows every year for the past 8 years as a media member and LA auto show the past 2 years.  William has been attending the shows with me for a number of years as well.  We have it down to a very efficient science for a 2 man operation. We know how these shows work. So go ahead, try to 'splain how the shows work, I'm here eagerly waiting to take notes from you. 

 

You made a lot of assumptions for things I never said or eluded to.

I simply made an observation that late Tuesday, as the press was finishing most of their work, and the crowds remaining were workers, suppliers, etc.....that Conti had a lot, lot, LOT more traffic than CT6, which had basically none.

Oh, and I also complained about casa's troll-worthy rants, which are not allowed for some others.

Draw from that what you want.

Traffic at an auto show booth doesn't mean sales.  Every year there is a huge crowd around the Corvette at the Pittsburgh auto show, and no one around the Camry, yet the Camry still outsells the Corvette 10 to 1.

I also think we can't truly judge the Continental until we know how it is priced.  If they price it the same as the MKS they could have a strong contender.  If it is CT6 TT V6 money, I think it is too high.

Traffic at an auto show booth doesn't mean sales.  Every year there is a huge crowd around the Corvette at the Pittsburgh auto show, and no one around the Camry, yet the Camry still outsells the Corvette 10 to 1.

 

I also think we can't truly judge the Continental until we know how it is priced.  If they price it the same as the MKS they could have a strong contender.  If it is CT6 TT V6 money, I think it is too high.

All good points and hard to argue.

So yeah, let's wait and see.

These marketing departments need to do a better job promoting sedans, or manufacturers need to make sedans more compelling.  I think crossovers in general are growing because all wheel drive and cargo space are 2 of the most desired product attributes among car buyers.  You can't get all wheel drive in a Mazda 6, Camry, Accord or Malibu, but you can in an Escape, CR-V or RAV-4.  

 

I think the idea of a $90k Cadillac sedan isn't crazy, but I think the CT6 as a product falls short of that price point.   $75k for a Continental is insane.  It is a front drive platform with all wheel drive and a 6-speed, even with the Ecoboost V6, it has power but not the chassis to back it up.  I think the CT6 and Continental will both fall flat in the market place because the German sedans will eat them up.  

I dunno.. I think that your assessment on the CT6 is wrong. I think that the car is gonna surprise a great deal of people on these enthusiasts sites. The only hurt I can see is that the XTS will be viewed as a cheaper alternative to the vehicle because of the size.. ironically it does the same thing to the CTS. The CTS sufferes vs the XTS because the XTS is priced exactly like the CTS while appearing to be.. the larger, thus higher up car. The CT6 could suffer due to the fact that they are somewhat similar in size.. yet there is a $9K difference in price.

Versus the Germans? I think U truly overestimate them. I think that the CT6 might just be the savior of the American luxury game.. This car appears to be of Flagship caliber for a price scheme that come in mid-size levels. The amenities, technology, and style is gonna be a hard thing to turn away from even versus the S-Class and 7Series

 

 

 

 

 

Called me on it?

BS.

You gave me your opinion on it, which I disagreed with.

And thus far all the news I am hearing is still focused on the Conti first, and I expect that to continue....even though few at Detroit have seen the CT6. My point again, it does not stand out like the Conti.

If I agreed with your opinion, then we'd both be wrong!

By your theory, the Pacifica is even more interesting to people than Continental. Chrysler had guards up there kicking everyone but media out.

During Monday and Tuesday, most of the people in the Cobo are media or industry.. People who have been to one of the many many displays of the CT6 from the previous 10 months. The CT6 is not new to them, the Continental was less than 6 hours old at that point.

 

 

When I was there late Tuesday, it was mostly employees and suppliers left at the show and most of which have not seen either product yet, even though the CT6 was revealed prior. That is what I saw and commented on.  

 

Anyway, our opinions and your insult aside, what I took issue with recently is that casa gets away with what he got away with.  You have deleted my posts for far less.  

 

So now I am thinking about going into a few GM autoshow reveal threads, sharing my 'opinion' and flooding them with pics of Ford or Lincoln equivalent products.  Let's see you give that an OK.

 

 

I don't know where you got this impression you seem to have that this is my first time at the rodeo. This site is going to be celebrating its 15th birthday this summer which will be its 9th year under my ownership and 14th with me as a member. I've been running forums in some form or another for over 20 years, going back to the BBS days.  You aren't even close to being the first person to threaten to troll my forums.... heck that isn't even your first threat to me.  I promise you, I can handle you and I can do a lot worse than ban you if I have to. 

 

I've been to each of the Detroit, NYC, and Chicago auto shows every year for the past 8 years as a media member and LA auto show the past 2 years.  William has been attending the shows with me for a number of years as well.  We have it down to a very efficient science for a 2 man operation. We know how these shows work. So go ahead, try to 'splain how the shows work, I'm here eagerly waiting to take notes from you. 

 

 

 

You made a lot of assumptions for things I never said or eluded to.

I simply made an observation that late Tuesday, as the press was finishing most of their work, and the crowds remaining were workers, suppliers, etc.....that Conti had a lot, lot, LOT more traffic than CT6, which had basically none.

 

Oh, and I also complained about casa's troll-worthy rants, which are not allowed for some others.

 

Draw from that what you want.

 

Troll worthy? Calling U out as the salesperson U are is troll worthy? Please. With U it never stops. Then again U are the same person that once predicted that the MKT.. yes this MKT

was gonna put the Escalade  outta business. Bottom line is that the Continental better do a heckava job. The name change will at least kill Lincoln's ability to put a "100% increase" next to the MKS's numbers when it goes on sale.. taking that average 570 per month to 1100

I think the Continental will do very well.  One of the rap stars will get one and the rest will be history. 

Yeah, maybe some NBA star will personally be a vehicle sponsor for free.

Like how Lebron James out of his own free will bought a Kia K900, was hella impressed with it, and then decided to give Kia free use of his name and brand to communicate his association with the K900.

He even likes the Cadenza loaners he'd get.

And this is a guy who'd use this car regularly among his rotation of daily drivers. And he must have more cars in his garage than there are days in a year.

Full disclosure - you all know I'm not so hot for this, but I can see why it'll fulfill its mission.

The Continental does not have to be some back road champion or even tuned on the Nurburgring like even how the Genesis branded cars are.

Lincoln has a deep understanding of its customers - or the segment it wants to capture. They want luxury. By that I mean they want to be pampered, coddled. They want what others won't give them - peace, space, and grace. And they're doing it on the cheap. Which means their contribution margin on the Continental will be exceptional. They are creating value for their customer, and the value exchange is both ways, and they are not bending over or subsuming the archetypes of what 'enthusiasts' expect of the import brands. They're being a discreet, more old world style luxury car. 

And that is about creating dense vehicles. Basically imagine a first-class coach on a train. That's what the Conti is. or the finest hand-made American couch. Couches don't have to hustle around corners, they just need to look classy and feel buttery comfortable.

They're doing what Johan said Cadillac should do, just as good, if not better here. 

Well...I went to the Montreal Auto Show today.

They had the new MKZ on display, on a pedestal. People could not get close to it, but admire it from afar.

I must say, the new face is very attractive. It out-Jaguars Jaguar in my opinion.  Very similar look, but I think the MKZ pulls that look better. At least from the front because from the back....YIKES!

What Im trying to say is that the front end looks very classy.

Now, I think the front end of the Continental will be that much more majestic than the MKZ.

So, I could now at least imagine what journalists keep on saying that the Continental has presence.

Based on looks alone, I think the Continental has nothing to worry about. People will admire it. And THAT is a HUGE step forward for Lincoln.

There are a lot of vehicles out there that just don't do as well in pictures as they do in person.  I think the Continential is one of them.  The Buick Avista is like that too because it was hard to capture all the little details in the design. 

So, anyways... the Contintntal is highly unlikely to help Lincoln. It's not going on sale for a while yet, it's using outmoded chassis and transmission tech, and the Koreans have moved into the segment.

Too little, too late.

There are a lot of vehicles out there that just don't do as well in pictures as they do in person.  I think the Continential is one of them.  The Buick Avista is like that too because it was hard to capture all the little details in the design. 

The Buick Avenir...WE HAD IT ON DISPLAY!!!

CANADIAN PREMIER...WOOHOO!!!

I think the Avenir also is one of these vehicles.

The first time I saw it in pics I was wowed by it, but quickly got bored with it.

But seeing it person, the Avenir has a certain elegance to it that pictures dont do justice. And its bigger than what it looks like in pictures.

Anyway, the MKZ, if they could fix the odd back end, it might just become a great seller because the new front end makes it look that much more elegant and expensive. And if a new 3.0 ecoboosted 6 comes along with, what, 400 horsepower, it will definitely turn the tide.

Wow...I have come full circle in accepting the MKZ...who knew?

So, anyways... the Contintntal is highly unlikely to help Lincoln. It's not going on sale for a while yet, it's using outmoded chassis and transmission tech, and the Koreans have moved into the segment.

Too little, too late.

The G90 can have 20 speeds and that won't help the dowdy look when sitting next to a Continental or CT6... or anything else in that segment.

It's made of sturdier stuff underneath. That's what counts.

What happens when Cadillac makes its CT6 sales-proof - or atleast a version of it?

It's confirmed at C&D that the plug-in CT6 will be imported from China.

Now, I'm okay with the Buick doing it, and okay with Cadillac doing it too.

But I can't help but think that last thing a Cadillac sales rep wants to say about the plug-in to the customer (it'll prolly be special order due to uncooperative gas price) is that it's from China. Or even the fact that a version of it. 

Like really, no one's going to pay around $80k for a American Cadillac sedan made in China. I wouldn't. 

What happens when Chinese customers will be willing to pay through the roof for the Lincoln, because it won't be built there it'll be imported to China from America. Atleast one domestic company gets it right.

What I'm saying is that Lincoln is going to continue to flip off the El Kabongs and SMKs of the world. And they're okay with that. That's their strategy. To "fire" the customers who weren't interested in the company to begin with.

Smart companies don't try to be everything to everyone, because they end up being nothing to no one. Lincoln's going to make more money off of the Continental than people really appreciate, and they're going to do it without copying anyone.

It's made of sturdier stuff underneath. That's what counts.

bollocks.... entirely.   You're getting out of the realm of opinion and into making up facts that you cannot back up simply because you have an agenda against a certain brand.  You don't know how stiff or not either car is.   And being FWD based has nothing to do with chassis stiffness. When the old GM FWD G-Bodies came out, they suffered side effects of their chassis' being so stiff, GM ran into problems they'd never had before. 

Look, I'm guessing Ford is capable enough to put chassis bracing to increase torsional rigidity and the good stuffs. As luxury cars - the ones that are really just focused on luxury and effortless power, the Rolls Royces and the Bentleys of the world - the cars speak for themselves.

And Ford Motor Company has among the best records recently of making front-drive performance cars that are really fun to drive.

The whole premise of the car to exist is to not worry as much as what is underneath, other than just have the discreet understanding that whatever it is - it's the most diplomatic assumption of adequacy. It's 'understood' that the car must be powerful. Must be comfortable. And must be gas-guzzling, which thanks in no part to not having a V8, this shouldn't be too bad.

What's really amusing is someone insinuating that this car is clumsy. People don't drive full-size sedans at the track. If they do, then well Lincoln can skip that unscrupulous buyer entirely and go for the meat that wants what it sees first and foremost to be exceptional, in a sense.

The car speaks for itself, and that's something that I feel the CT6 fails to do as well, but it does well enough. For the CT6, I feel that the dealer will have to spout off all of its innovations like checking off a list to just get the person who just wants the Escalade anyways to even bat an eye.

All the Lincoln dealer should do is, ask "Why don't you sit inside?"

That will seal the deal. Let the car speak. And the Continental speaks - and some people really want to listen to it. Its not meant for the brand snob or cheerleaders. It is meant for people who still believe in old world luxury, and the kind that comes from America. 

I'm a wannabe enthusiast though, so I'm the exception, I can appreciate just how far Cadillac had to go to get the same impression. But it's clear to me that Lincoln has bigger balls because they're unyielding to the petty expectations of people who have no clue exactly what luxury buyers want - rather they only have conjecture of an archetypal customer that is salient to their own beliefs. Different customers have different needs.

The day flagship sedans are auto-crossed or at Le Mans is the day that Cadillac's CT6 can actually shine.

Also, I love how this car will be exported to China. I love that they're adamant to sell the car at a premium. They're building their brand, not chasing volume.

 

There are a lot of vehicles out there that just don't do as well in pictures as they do in person.  I think the Continential is one of them.  The Buick Avista is like that too because it was hard to capture all the little details in the design. 

The Buick Avenir...WE HAD IT ON DISPLAY!!!

 

CANADIAN PREMIER...WOOHOO!!!

 

I think the Avenir also is one of these vehicles.

 

The first time I saw it in pics I was wowed by it, but quickly got bored with it.

But seeing it person, the Avenir has a certain elegance to it that pictures dont do justice. And its bigger than what it looks like in pictures.

Anyway, the MKZ, if they could fix the odd back end, it might just become a great seller because the new front end makes it look that much more elegant and expensive. And if a new 3.0 ecoboosted 6 comes along with, what, 400 horsepower, it will definitely turn the tide.

 

Wow...I have come full circle in accepting the MKZ...who knew?

 

it's because you set your brand preferences aside and you judged the car fairly on its own merits, not on the recent history of the company.

Lincoln's trying really hard to go back to what it did well in the past. The bungled MKS and MKT are vehicles they even know were terrible.

By no means has the brand cleared any hurdles though. But again, I'll invite people to judge the vehicles fairly, like I invite folks to do for Genesis cars or any other brand that gets a barrage of misguided hatred. 

I have not seen the new MKZ in person though, so to me it's still the Jaudi XJz. But I'm glad to know that someone thought the car looked expensive. And part of being expensive - well you do have to look the part.

Well...I went to the Montreal Auto Show today.

 

They had the new MKZ on display, on a pedestal. People could not get close to it, but admire it from afar.

 

I must say, the new face is very attractive. It out-Jaguars Jaguar in my opinion.  Very similar look, but I think the MKZ pulls that look better. At least from the front because from the back....YIKES!

What Im trying to say is that the front end looks very classy.

 

Now, I think the front end of the Continental will be that much more majestic than the MKZ.

So, I could now at least imagine what journalists keep on saying that the Continental has presence.

 

Based on looks alone, I think the Continental has nothing to worry about. People will admire it. And THAT is a HUGE step forward for Lincoln.

See, I like the front end of the MKZ and I like the back end of the MKZ.... Just not on the same car.

Yes, I do think the Continental has presence. Remember when the concept came out and Bentley got mad? The Continental reminding people of something as posh as a Bentley isn't a bad association to have... Better than invoking a Genesis that has virtually zero brand or image equity.

Two decades ago, Lexus pulled the same trick on Benz and it worked. It got people's attention and built the brand.

^

Great points by drew.

And regarding chassis stiffness for continental,  I think that today's CAE tools are more than capable enough to deliver a modified and stretched platform, be it FWD or RWD, that yields significant improvements that are more than adequate to the capacities called upon for a luxury car that emphasizes soft and quiet.  Yet I also have no doubt that this Lincoln can impress with it's zig and it's zag too. This is not a case of good enough either. Conti is not some brown dress shoes that rarely get used, but instead a hybrid of appropriately stylish dress combined with All -Sport comfort that feels so good you don't want to take them off. And with those seats, a one size fits all sole for many different size butts.

I think the Continental will do very well.  One of the rap stars will get one and the rest will be history.

Facepalm moment.

Lol.. To Suavil's LeBron comment, yeah.. Didn't 50cent do the same thing to the G8? Toss money at me and I might let Hyundai.. A company I hate.. use my name too

Did casa really just offer his name for brand placement?

And did he really just accuse others of being salesman?

I don't know which to laugh at first.

Did casa really just offer his name for brand placement?

And did he really just accuse others of being salesman?

 

I don't know which to laugh at first.

Laugh at your inability to get sarcasm

I don't see how Lincoln is going to conquer luxury ride from the rwd cars. Rear drive let's you stretch the wheelbase which improves ride. Even with awd you want 60-70% of the power to the back so you are pushed and not pulled, offering smoother acceleration. And I didn't read anything in the press release about air suspension or magnetic shock absorbers.

Also the 2017 Continental has fewer gears than a 2004 S-class. Mechanically the Continental just doesn't have it. 30-way seats won't save it either.

I don't see how Lincoln is going to conquer luxury ride from the rwd cars. Rear drive let's you stretch the wheelbase which improves ride. Even with awd you want 60-70% of the power to the back so you are pushed and not pulled, offering smoother acceleration. And I didn't read anything in the press release about air suspension or magnetic shock absorbers.

Also the 2017 Continental has fewer gears than a 2004 S-class. Mechanically the Continental just doesn't have it. 30-way seats won't save it either.

How is that statement true in any way at all? Did you just make that up?

My 06 C350 had a 7spd as well, fyi.

Ford can't get that 9spd/10spd soon enough. If nothing else it will shut you and 'Bong up about gear ratios.

I don't see how Lincoln is going to conquer luxury ride from the rwd cars. Rear drive let's you stretch the wheelbase which improves ride. Even with awd you want 60-70% of the power to the back so you are pushed and not pulled, offering smoother acceleration. And I didn't read anything in the press release about air suspension or magnetic shock absorbers.

Also the 2017 Continental has fewer gears than a 2004 S-class. Mechanically the Continental just doesn't have it. 30-way seats won't save it either.

So as usual you move the fence post and compare apples to oranges as the Continental is NOT to compete with the S class from your beloved MB.

IF RWD is so superior then how do you justify not only MB, but BMW and Audi with all their FWD appliances? So then this is the Chevy, Ford, Dodge side of the German companies? So then you drive an equal Chevy used at that MB auto since MB is no longer just a Luxury auto maker but a build for everyone with generic appliances on FWD base as well as RWD.

I don't see how Lincoln is going to conquer luxury ride from the rwd cars. Rear drive let's you stretch the wheelbase which improves ride. Even with awd you want 60-70% of the power to the back so you are pushed and not pulled, offering smoother acceleration. And I didn't read anything in the press release about air suspension or magnetic shock absorbers.

Also the 2017 Continental has fewer gears than a 2004 S-class. Mechanically the Continental just doesn't have it. 30-way seats won't save it either.

None of that is even close to true.  First off, during acceleration, most of the advanced new AWD systems including this one send the majority of torque to the rear wheels anyway, which completely alleviates your false assertion that RWD is somehow smoother at acceleration than FWD (probably the crowning achievement of your absurd statements).  The suspension uses continuous dampening control shocks. They are lighter weight than MRC and offer nearly as much speed as MRC. 

No one is going to walk into a dealership to buy a Continental and then turn around and leave over the 6-speed. You like a car for what it is, not the number of gears in the box.  The 9-speed will be along soon anyway, it's not done being developed. 

If you look at most of the luxury all wheel drive systems they send more power to the back than the front.  Audi Quattro is a 50-50 set up, although the R8 sends 85% to the rear wheels.  A VW with all wheel drive sends about 90% power to the front wheels, and will only send more to the back if the wheels slip.

BMW is a 40/60 front to rear split, Mercedes is 45/55 split, except AMG cars are 33/67.  Because you want to power to the back, steering at the front.  My Mercedes is rear drive, I didn't want 4matic. 

As far as Mercedes with all their fwd appliances, they have 3 front drive models and 18 rear drive models.  

Quick edit, the VW Haldex system actually sends 95% power to the front wheels.  Some BMWs are 36/64 split.

The Cadillac STS and CTS were 40/60 splits, the ATS actually has a 30/70 split.  The Jaguar all wheel drive defaults 100% rear, uses a 30/70 split in winter mode and can adjust to 50/50 if there is wheel slippage.

All these systems are rear biased, because as I said, you want drive power to the back wheels.

If you look at most of the luxury all wheel drive systems they send more power to the back than the front.  Audi Quattro is a 50-50 set up, although the R8 sends 85% to the rear wheels.  A VW with all wheel drive sends about 90% power to the front wheels, and will only send more to the back if the wheels slip.

 

BMW is a 40/60 front to rear split, Mercedes is 45/55 split, except AMG cars are 33/67.  Because you want to power to the back, steering at the front.  My Mercedes is rear drive, I didn't want 4matic. 

 

As far as Mercedes with all their fwd appliances, they have 3 front drive models and 18 rear drive models.  

They used to have ZERO FWD models and it's real easy to pad your "18" count when you want to include every variant of each main model.

Quick edit, the VW Haldex system actually sends 95% power to the front wheels.  Some BMWs are 36/64 split.

 

The Cadillac STS and CTS were 40/60 splits, the ATS actually has a 30/70 split.  The Jaguar all wheel drive defaults 100% rear, uses a 30/70 split in winter mode and can adjust to 50/50 if there is wheel slippage.

 

All these systems are rear biased, because as I said, you want drive power to the back wheels.

Why send any power to the front then? if you "want drive power to the back wheels." 

Sounds like they're all f'n up i there is any power sent to the front. Stupid FWD vehicles. There's never been one successful FWD or FWD biased car ever to have been produced. I don't understand what in the H Lincoln was thinking. STUPID. 

Also, if you could elaborate on your previous statement "Even with awd you want 60-70% of the power to the back so you are pushed and not pulled, offering smoother acceleration." that would be great.  I think everybody here would like an explanation of how this is a thing. 

Maybe they should make the Corvette, Camaro and Mustang FWD as well, since it is so good.  And since V8s aren't needed anymore, make the 3.0TT V6 as the top engine in the Mustang.  

I wonder what would happen to Mustang sales if it was FWD/AWD with no V8 option?  Hmmmmm

 

If you look at most of the luxury all wheel drive systems they send more power to the back than the front.  Audi Quattro is a 50-50 set up, although the R8 sends 85% to the rear wheels.  A VW with all wheel drive sends about 90% power to the front wheels, and will only send more to the back if the wheels slip.

 

BMW is a 40/60 front to rear split, Mercedes is 45/55 split, except AMG cars are 33/67.  Because you want to power to the back, steering at the front.  My Mercedes is rear drive, I didn't want 4matic. 

 

As far as Mercedes with all their fwd appliances, they have 3 front drive models and 18 rear drive models.  

They used to have ZERO FWD models and it's real easy to pad your "18" count when you want to include every variant of each main model.

 

12 to 3 if not counting model variants or the vans.  They used to have zero but the world changed, and one of their fwd cars is a compliance car to meet electric car regs.  And the front drive is at the very bottom of the brand.  It isn't on their flagship.

Quick edit, the VW Haldex system actually sends 95% power to the front wheels.  Some BMWs are 36/64 split.

 

The Cadillac STS and CTS were 40/60 splits, the ATS actually has a 30/70 split.  The Jaguar all wheel drive defaults 100% rear, uses a 30/70 split in winter mode and can adjust to 50/50 if there is wheel slippage.

 

All these systems are rear biased, because as I said, you want drive power to the back wheels.

The systems are biased because of the orientation of the engines... and the defaults aren't the defaults during heavy acceleration.  The best AWD systems are the ones that can shift power around front to rear or rear to front. 

The system Ford is using in the Focus RS, Continental, and others that I'm forgetting is the GKN system that can send all the power to the rear wheels when needed or is programmed to.  The latest versions of Haldex can send up to 90% to the rear wheels and they don't need to wait for slip to occur to engage the rear wheels. The Chrysler system linked to the 9-Speed FWD auto can be (and is in the 200S) programmed to favor power to the rear wheels rather than the front when in sport mode.   The new Dual-Clutch in the most recent GMs (XT5, Acadia All-Terrain, Buick LaCrosse) is just a variant of the GKN system. Even my Encore sends 50% of the torque to the rear when starting out and then dials it back to FWD mode once underway.

So let me ask you a question.... when you're just poking along on the turnpike, why do you care which wheels are powering you along? It's not like you'll feel any difference front to rear in that situation.  The only time it matters is in full throttle acceleration or Nurbergring type driving.... the former is addressed through AWD system programming and the later is irrelevant to the typical buyer in this class.