GM Keynote @ CES 2022 is Virtual, yet we see the Chevrolet Truck and SUV to lead their BEV Portfolio!

7 minutes ago, David said:

@surreal1272 I find it speaks volumes when SMK is presented with facts and yet he chooses to ignore my post that shows he is full of BS and move the goal posts with an ever-changing Apples to Oranges comparison and excuses while attacking American Business. Seems he needs to move to Germany.

That avoidance of facts seems to have spread to others, as evidenced by the last 24 hours.

13 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Kind of like the G Wagen.. Sells like crap so it's the worst, right? *eyeroll* 

Shhhh! You know we don't talk about that around here lol.

13 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Kind of like the G Wagen.. Sells like crap so it's the worst, right? *eyeroll* 

G-Wagen had an all time global sales record in 2021.  It’s more popular than ever.

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

G-Wagen had an all time global sales record in 2021.  It’s more popular than ever.

It is still their lowest seller so by your GM and Ford logic, it is a failure. Thanks for playing though. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

G-Wagen had an all time global sales record in 2021.  It’s more popular than ever.

Hey BIFF, Wanna re-think that statement as I would not say sales #'s in the U.S. is good.

Based on just the U.S. and Canada Numbers, the G-Wagon should be discontinued based on your posted past statements about other auto companies.

More interesting is that Mercedes-Benz no longer breaks out the G-Wagon as it is part of the G-Class of SUVs and so one has to wonder how many they really sold? Seems their starting to make it grey to really see how many sales by model number. 

Mercedes-Benz sees strong demand as high-end and electrified vehicle sales surge - Daimler Global Media Site

I will say that MB had greater than other auto companies drop in sales.

Interesting is that MB USA still breaks down the model numbers in reporting compaired to the Parent Company web site. so G-Class it would seem is the G-Wagon of past and still not that great of sales numbers. If the parent company site is using the same, then the G-Class / G-Wagon sold just a little over 41,000 globally. Which still is nothing compared to other SUVs here in the US by sales numbers alone.

So then I think that GM is on the right path to success as the Escalade has been selling well in both standard and ESV numbers globally. So seems MB G-Class is finally catching up to Cadillac.

The important part of the Daimler press release is:

All their top end cars are doing well, G-class at its best ever.  And the GLS is the Escalade competitor, the G-class ATP is like $75k higher than an Escalade, not really a valid comparison, also a G-class is a mid-size SUV, not a full size.  I'd imagine the S-class it the #1 selling vehicle in the world with a base price over $100k.

So this actually goes to my earlier point, Mercedes will have no problem selling $100,000 EV's because they already sell vehicles in good volume at that price, and the upcoming Mercedes EV's should be in the GLE's price range and the GLE was their #1 seller in the USA last year.  So there is no sticker shock there.

Where as VW iD4 is Tiguan size at $50k for all wheel drive, that is sticker shock when the Tiguan in the same showroom is like $30k.  And if Ford does an EV Explorer  above the Mach-E, are we talking like $60-80k?  And $100k for the Expedition EV?  Hard sell at those prices.

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The important part of the Daimler press release is:

All their top end cars are doing well, G-class at its best ever.  And the GLS is the Escalade competitor, the G-class ATP is like $75k higher than an Escalade, not really a valid comparison, also a G-class is a mid-size SUV, not a full size.  I'd imagine the S-class it the #1 selling vehicle in the world with a base price over $100k.

So this actually goes to my earlier point, Mercedes will have no problem selling $100,000 EV's because they already sell vehicles in good volume at that price, and the upcoming Mercedes EV's should be in the GLE's price range and the GLE was their #1 seller in the USA last year.  So there is no sticker shock there.

Where as VW iD4 is Tiguan size at $50k for all wheel drive, that is sticker shock when the Tiguan in the same showroom is like $30k.  And if Ford does an EV Explorer  above the Mach-E, are we talking like $60-80k?  And $100k for the Expedition EV?  Hard sell at those prices.

So how do you make the extreme wealthy that is far more conservative and not the ones to spend money actually spend money on these expensive 6 figure EVs?

Tech workers are the main supporting area of BEVs and that is the growth area of high middle-income folks, not the wealthy. As such, I think you are overestimating how many of the 1% class will embrace BEVs.

Selling BEVs to the ultra-conservative 1% crowd is a much bigger challenge than selling to the high-tech crowd.

2 hours ago, David said:

So how do you make the extreme wealthy that is far more conservative and not the ones to spend money actually spend money on these expensive 6 figure EVs?

Tech workers are the main supporting area of BEVs and that is the growth area of high middle-income folks, not the wealthy. As such, I think you are overestimating how many of the 1% class will embrace BEVs.

Selling BEVs to the ultra-conservative 1% crowd is a much bigger challenge than selling to the high-tech crowd.

Not really, and by 2030 all S-classes, Maybachs, Rolls-Royces, Bentleys, etc will be electric.  The rich will buy them and probably like them more because they will be quieter and more powerful than those vehicles with gas engines.  And the bulk of BMW and Mercedes sales are in the $50-80k range so if they have EV's priced there that is nothing new for their consumer base.  

I want to know how many people are buying a $60k Kia EV6, Kia couldn't sell a full size luxury sedan for $60k, now they want to sell a small crossover for that much.  

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Not really, and by 2030 all S-classes, Maybachs, Rolls-Royces, Bentleys, etc will be electric.  The rich will buy them and probably like them more because they will be quieter and more powerful than those vehicles with gas engines.  And the bulk of BMW and Mercedes sales are in the $50-80k range so if they have EV's priced there that is nothing new for their consumer base.  

I want to know how many people are buying a $60k Kia EV6, Kia couldn't sell a full size luxury sedan for $60k, now they want to sell a small crossover for that much.  

INFLATION!!!

On 1/10/2022 at 10:27 AM, smk4565 said:

G-Wagen had an all time global sales record in 2021.  It’s more popular than ever.

And still sells in abysmal numbers. 

That's the point. 

It isn't a bad vehicle because its sales numbers are abysmal. 

On 1/7/2022 at 9:08 AM, surreal1272 said:

Did you actually READ why it's being discontinued? It's not because of sales.

https://carbuzz.com/news/ford-edge-and-lincoln-nautilus-are-dead-after-2023

 

Stop posting half truths.

The Nautilus and Edge sell reasonably well.  They were supposed to move to the Explorer platform. I wonder if that plan has been shelved.  They would have been moved to the Chicago assembly plant. 

10 hours ago, ccap41 said:

And still sells in abysmal numbers. 

That's the point. 

It isn't a bad vehicle because its sales numbers are abysmal. 

It outsold all of Rolls-Royce, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Bentley combined.  And while not quite in their price tier, they are selling for $150-200k (probably more with dealer markups) and easily the best selling vehicle in that price category.

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Nautilus and Edge sell reasonably well.  They were supposed to move to the Explorer platform. I wonder if that plan has been shelved.  They would have been moved to the Chicago assembly plant. 

For a couple years they have said they would die at the end of this life cycle.  I imagine Ford will put a mid-size electric SUV out instead, but if a Mach-E is $45-65k range, are we talking $55-75k for the mid-size and $65-85k for the Explorer EV?   I don't see a big market for $75,000 Explorers.  So they have to get cost out to make any of this plan work. 

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It outsold all of Rolls-Royce, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Bentley combined.  And while not quite in their price tier, they are selling for $150-200k (probably more with dealer markups) and easily the best selling vehicle in that price category.

For a couple years they have said they would die at the end of this life cycle.  I imagine Ford will put a mid-size electric SUV out instead, but if a Mach-E is $45-65k range, are we talking $55-75k for the mid-size and $65-85k for the Explorer EV?   I don't see a big market for $75,000 Explorers.  So they have to get cost out to make any of this plan work. 

I think the low end Explorer EV will overlap the high end Mach-E.

$75k Explorers are called Aviators and they’re selling well.

44 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I think the low end Explorer EV will overlap the high end Mach-E.

$75k Explorers are called Aviators and they’re selling well.

But a Lincoln version of a Mach-E would add say $10,000 and be in that $55-75k range and a Corsair size vehicle.  The Aviator is like $20k over a Corsair, and Aviator EV could be $90,000.

Aviator sold 20,924 units in 2021 down 9.3%.  

MDX 60,057. up 26.8%

GLE 48,154 up 35%

X5 60,725 up 19.9%

Lexus GX 32,509 up 14% 

Q7 25,362  0% change

XT6 20,662 down 8.6%

So I wouldn't really say the Aviator sells well, 7th place in it's segment, mainly because Infiniti is a mess and Genesis is new, they might overtake the Aviator next year.

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But a Lincoln version of a Mach-E would add say $10,000 and be in that $55-75k range and a Corsair size vehicle.  The Aviator is like $20k over a Corsair, and Aviator EV could be $90,000.

Aviator sold 20,924 units in 2021 down 9.3%.  

MDX 60,057. up 26.8%

GLE 48,154 up 35%

X5 60,725 up 19.9%

Lexus GX 32,509 up 14% 

Q7 25,362  0% change

XT6 20,662 down 8.6%

So I wouldn't really say the Aviator sells well, 7th place in it's segment, mainly because Infiniti is a mess and Genesis is new, they might overtake the Aviator next year.

The Aviator can be optioned well into the 90s. I’m not terribly worried about year over year sales since Covid started, there’s far too many outside factors to make any one manufacturer have a valid data point. 
 

That said, 20k luxury Explorers selling at prices over the previous generation Navigator is a win for a damaged brand like Lincoln.

43 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Aviator can be optioned well into the 90s. I’m not terribly worried about year over year sales since Covid started, there’s far too many outside factors to make any one manufacturer have a valid data point. 
 

That said, 20k luxury Explorers selling at prices over the previous generation Navigator is a win for a damaged brand like Lincoln.

Maybe that is a win for Lincoln, but it isn't a win against any of the competitors, most of which are seeing double digit increases while the Aviator and XT6 are declining.  Cadillac kind of has an excuse, they phoned it in early on the XT6, Lincoln actually tried on the Aviator.    

The Toyota Highland also outsold the fleet heavy Ford Explorer last year.  I remember when Ford sold over 400k Explorers a year in the 90s, before any of them were cop cars; they sold 219,000 last year, in a market that is larger than it was in the 90s.   The Aviator also had better sales numbers in 2003 and 2004 than it did last year or in 2020.   These guys just let the competition walk all over them.  

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Maybe that is a win for Lincoln, but it isn't a win against any of the competitors, most of which are seeing double digit increases while the Aviator and XT6 are declining.  Cadillac kind of has an excuse, they phoned it in early on the XT6, Lincoln actually tried on the Aviator.    

The Toyota Highland also outsold the fleet heavy Ford Explorer last year.  I remember when Ford sold over 400k Explorers a year in the 90s, before any of them were cop cars; they sold 219,000 last year, in a market that is larger than it was in the 90s.   The Aviator also had better sales numbers in 2003 and 2004 than it did last year or in 2020.   These guys just let the competition walk all over them.  

Cop fleet is not cheap like rental fleet is. And most governments aside from the Feds and States don’t have the buying power to get any significant discount. So the municipality I work for pays roughly $50k for a cop version of an Explorer ST before it goes to the outfitters.

 Those old numbers you’re looking at were also when those vehicles were a lot less expensive. Lincoln struggled to get sales back then because their vehicles were so low effort. The Aviator today is much more bespoke for Lincoln than the old one which was just a hood and tailgate swap. 

14 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Cop fleet is not cheap like rental fleet is. And most governments aside from the Feds and States don’t have the buying power to get any significant discount. So the municipality I work for pays roughly $50k for a cop version of an Explorer ST before it goes to the outfitters.

 Those old numbers you’re looking at were also when those vehicles were a lot less expensive. 

Cop cars is probably a profitable business, but my point more was if you take our the fleet sales, the retail demand doesn't look so great for the Explorer, compared to others in the segment.

DING, DING, DING! on vehicles were a lot less expensive.  This is my point with these EV's, too expensive.  Explorer sales are 50% what they were 20 years ago, so if Ford makes it electric, and jacks the price up more, do sales get cut in half again?  Not sure how that is a long term plan for success, you can't charge Tesla prices for a Ford.

We'll see how GM does, if they can deliver on a $30k Equinox, maybe they can have something affordable that isn't too expensive for the market.

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cop cars is probably a profitable business, but my point more was if you take our the fleet sales, the retail demand doesn't look so great for the Explorer, compared to others in the segment.

 

DING, DING, DING! on vehicles were a lot less expensive.  This is my point with these EV's, too expensive.  Explorer sales are 50% what they were 20 years ago, so if Ford makes it electric, and jacks the price up more, do sales get cut in half again?  Not sure how that is a long term plan for success, you can't charge Tesla prices for a Ford.

We'll see how GM does, if they can deliver on a $30k Equinox, maybe they can have something affordable that isn't too expensive for the market.

Then based on your statement here Mercedes-Benz will FAIL since they are producing way too expensive BEVs.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Cop cars is probably a profitable business, but my point more was if you take our the fleet sales, the retail demand doesn't look so great for the Explorer, compared to others in the segment.

 

DING, DING, DING! on vehicles were a lot less expensive.  This is my point with these EV's, too expensive.  Explorer sales are 50% what they were 20 years ago, so if Ford makes it electric, and jacks the price up more, do sales get cut in half again?  Not sure how that is a long term plan for success, you can't charge Tesla prices for a Ford.

We'll see how GM does, if they can deliver on a $30k Equinox, maybe they can have something affordable that isn't too expensive for the market.

The Ford v GM question is going to come down the the EV platform. GM appears to have the edge here (pun intended) because their Ultium system looks significantly more flexible and scaleable 

21 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Maybe that is a win for Lincoln, but it isn't a win against any of the competitors, most of which are seeing double digit increases while the Aviator and XT6 are declining.  Cadillac kind of has an excuse, they phoned it in early on the XT6, Lincoln actually tried on the Aviator.    

The Toyota Highland also outsold the fleet heavy Ford Explorer last year.  I remember when Ford sold over 400k Explorers a year in the 90s, before any of them were cop cars; they sold 219,000 last year, in a market that is larger than it was in the 90s.   The Aviator also had better sales numbers in 2003 and 2004 than it did last year or in 2020.   These guys just let the competition walk all over them.  

Seems your data is a failure as Lincoln has surpassed sales in the US in China. Lincoln is alive and well and even Ford products that you have bashed here are selling like crazy in China.

Lincoln China Sales Figures (carsalesbase.com)

Lincoln Now Sells More Product in China Than U.S. - The Truth About Cars

Lincoln's China sales top U.S. for 1st time | Automotive News (autonews.com)

Ford China Year-to-Date Sales Grow 11%, Driven by Record Lincoln Sales | China | English | Ford Media Center

Seems Chinese love the Current Lincoln Styling compared to many European styling.

Ford has Pro Power Onboard which came out in their Hybrid F150 and will be on the F150 Lighting EV. 

GM has PowerBase to compete with Ford based on the news story here:

GM PowerBase trademark hints at Silverado EV's onboard outlets (autoblog.com)

1 hour ago, David said:

Seems your data is a failure as Lincoln has surpassed sales in the US in China. Lincoln is alive and well and even Ford products that you have bashed here are selling like crazy in China.

Lincoln China Sales Figures (carsalesbase.com)

Lincoln Now Sells More Product in China Than U.S. - The Truth About Cars

Lincoln's China sales top U.S. for 1st time | Automotive News (autonews.com)

Ford China Year-to-Date Sales Grow 11%, Driven by Record Lincoln Sales | China | English | Ford Media Center

Seems Chinese love the Current Lincoln Styling compared to many European styling.

The German brands each sell about 700,000 units per year in China.    Lincoln is about 600,000 units a year behind, a non-factor.

And Mercedes EV's aren't too expensive, their full size EV sedan costs less than their gas full size sedan.  

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Explorer sales are 50% what they were 20 years ago,

LOT more SUV competition now- Explorer was the 'it' SUV in the '90s.
Try looking at Ford's SUV volume 20 yrs ago vs. 2019.

43 minutes ago, balthazar said:

LOT more SUV competition now- Explorer was the 'it' SUV in the '90s.
Try looking at Ford's SUV volume 20 yrs ago vs. 2019.

Explorer was the "it" SUV, but now it is the Rav4 and Highlander.  Ford lost their edge (and will lose the Edge next year).  The Jeep Grand Cherokee was popular in the 90s, still is today, they were able to maintain with new competition.  

Side note on that Ford sold over 400,000 Taurus's a year in the 90s, Fusion and Taurus both gone now.  Camry became the #1 selling car I believe in the 90s, in 2021 it was the #1 selling car.  So others have maintained their leadership.

It's all statistics.

Volume chasers are going to flood every segment, pushing for mainstream volume (toyoter, mercedes, etc). Other Companies are focusing more on future/profitable segments rather than mere volume.

It's not like the RAV4 is a compelling vehicle, people just buy them for some reason. Look at the corolla- absolutely bottom of the barrel, people keep buying it.

12 hours ago, balthazar said:

It's all statistics.

Volume chasers are going to flood every segment, pushing for mainstream volume (toyoter, mercedes, etc). Other Companies are focusing more on future/profitable segments rather than mere volume.

It's not like the RAV4 is a compelling vehicle, people just buy them for some reason. Look at the corolla- absolutely bottom of the barrel, people keep buying it.

A-Effing-Men!

The RAV4 is the current lowest common denominator. It's not that it's a great car in any particular measure (thought the hybrid model does have excellent performance and efficiency, but is also quite expensive and dealers are marking it up).  They aren't very comfortable, they don't handle well.  The interior is meh. 

As low as the bar is, the CR-V is a much nicer and more comfortable vehicle all around, but it gets outsold by the Toyota. 

People are just buying refrigerators. 

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

A-Effing-Men!

The RAV4 is the current lowest common denominator. It's not that it's a great car in any particular measure (thought the hybrid model does have excellent performance and efficiency, but is also quite expensive and dealers are marking it up).  They aren't very comfortable, they don't handle well.  The interior is meh. 

As low as the bar is, the CR-V is a much nicer and more comfortable vehicle all around, but it gets outsold by the Toyota. 

People are just buying refrigerators. 

And yet the default is buy a Toyota.  Just like buy a Chevrolet 40 or 50 years ago was the default. SAD.

Is this reality really sad though?  

That GM is no longer the go to OEM for mediocre vehicles anymore?

That Walmart type of consumers no longer shop for GM vehicles anymore?

That GM no longer produces mediocre products that Walmart type of consumers crave for?

Because 40-50 years ago, General Motors gave us some really bad stinkers that were engineered to the lowest common denominator meant for big volume.  And what did that do?  Ironically, it made lots lots of Americans mad to never touch an American car again which ironically, these very same pissed off Americans are buying mediocre shyte from Japan...

Guys, be freakin' happy that GM is building some quality cars again!   Engineering is top notch and so is build quality.  

What is sad in my opinion, is that some Americans are NOT buying and supporting GM that builds a waaaay better product than Toyota which is a very very lesser product than GM's. 

Now THAT is SAD. 

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Is this reality really sad though?  

That GM is no longer the go to OEM for mediocre vehicles anymore?

That Walmart type of consumers no longer shop for GM vehicles anymore?

That GM no longer produces mediocre products that Walmart type of consumers crave for?

Because 40-50 years ago, General Motors gave us some really bad stinkers that were engineered to the lowest common denominator meant for big volume.  And what did that do?  Ironically, it made lots lots of Americans mad to never touch an American car again which ironically, these very same pissed off Americans are buying mediocre shyte from Japan...

Guys, be freakin' happy that GM is building some quality cars again!   Engineering is top notch and so is build quality.  

What is sad in my opinion, is that some Americans are NOT buying and supporting GM that builds a waaaay better product than Toyota which is a very very lesser product than GM's. 

Now THAT is SAD. 

Add to this the certain group of folks that pound the drum about buy Made in America and yet they themselves buy Asian or European. Interesting that in this time of that drum pounding, key high visible individuals are double standards.

That 'certain group' is called "hypocrites", and absolutely every adult age group has 'em.

On 1/15/2022 at 8:24 PM, oldshurst442 said:

Is this reality really sad though?  

That GM is no longer the go to OEM for mediocre vehicles anymore?

That Walmart type of consumers no longer shop for GM vehicles anymore?

That GM no longer produces mediocre products that Walmart type of consumers crave for?

Because 40-50 years ago, General Motors gave us some really bad stinkers that were engineered to the lowest common denominator meant for big volume.  And what did that do?  Ironically, it made lots lots of Americans mad to never touch an American car again which ironically, these very same pissed off Americans are buying mediocre shyte from Japan...

Guys, be freakin' happy that GM is building some quality cars again!   Engineering is top notch and so is build quality.  

What is sad in my opinion, is that some Americans are NOT buying and supporting GM that builds a waaaay better product than Toyota which is a very very lesser product than GM's. 

Now THAT is SAD. 

The reality is SAD because a lot of buyers are settling for Toyota when they are no longer the leader in quality.  Simply put, Toyota is living off a reputation that is no longer true.

What is even sadder is that fewer people are buying GM vehicles than ever.  While mediocrity at GM has diminished, sales numbers do not reflect the new reality.  To a lot of people, when in doubt, buy the Toyota.  SAD.

14 hours ago, riviera74 said:

The reality is SAD because a lot of buyers are settling for Toyota when they are no longer the leader in quality.  Simply put, Toyota is living off a reputation that is no longer true.

What is even sadder is that fewer people are buying GM vehicles than ever.  While mediocrity at GM has diminished, sales numbers do not reflect the new reality.  To a lot of people, when in doubt, buy the Toyota.  SAD.

Lucky quality has gone up and with it ATP that GM is profitable and pushing the future of Auto tech. Very excited by the Snapdragon Ride Platform.
Let the lemmings have the Toyota crap, happy to be at an American Auto company.