CES 2021 - The Cadillac Celestiq Concept

Tesla Model S Plaid+ has 520 mile range.  Which is a major problem for a 2025 model with a 300 mile range or the Taycan and its 225 mile range.  I think you can always have a 350-300 mile range as a base car, but all these EV's need a 400+ mile option too.

1 factor out of 50.

25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla Model S Plaid+ has 520 mile range.  Which is a major problem for a 2025 model with a 300 mile range or the Taycan and its 225 mile range.  I think you can always have a 350-300 mile range as a base car, but all these EV's need a 400+ mile option too.

Eh, I think 300 is enough for most people.

32 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Eh, I think 300 is enough for most people.

It is, but it looks bad on the stat sheet if the other guy has a 500 mile option.

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It is, but it looks bad on the stat sheet if the other guy has a 500 mile option.

The shitty Tesla Model S interior looks worse before you even get to the stat sheet. 

You'll never get me into a Model S with those interiors even if it had a 1,000 mile range. A Cadillac interior, 300 would be sufficient. 

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The $h!ty Tesla Model S interior looks worse before you even get to the stat sheet. 

You'll never get me into a Model S with those interiors even if it had a 1,000 mile range. A Cadillac interior, 300 would be sufficient. 

Cadillac should be able to beat Tesla on interior.  But Tesla does have horsepower, range and self driving technology advantages over everyone.  So Porsche, Mercedes, Cadillac or anyone else need to change the narrative and beat Tesla at something else.  

Worldwide Tesla outsells Cadillac, and Cadillac had a 100 year head start on them.  I don’t think Cadillac is going to put the Lyriq and Celestiq on sale and magically catch Tesla.  It will take more than that.

57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac should be able to beat Tesla on interior.  But Tesla does have horsepower, range and self driving technology advantages over everyone.  So Porsche, Mercedes, Cadillac or anyone else need to change the narrative and beat Tesla at something else.  

Worldwide Tesla outsells Cadillac, and Cadillac had a 100 year head start on them.  I don’t think Cadillac is going to put the Lyriq and Celestiq on sale and magically catch Tesla.  It will take more than that.

Tesla self driving is a Joke, proven to many times with lives lost!

56 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac should be able to beat Tesla on interior.  But Tesla does have horsepower, range and self driving technology advantages over everyone.  So Porsche, Mercedes, Cadillac or anyone else need to change the narrative and beat Tesla at something else.  

Worldwide Tesla outsells Cadillac, and Cadillac had a 100 year head start on them.  I don’t think Cadillac is going to put the Lyriq and Celestiq on sale and magically catch Tesla.  It will take more than that.

The Cadillac EVs will likely cost more than Teslas at the start. The first EVs are supposed to be flag ships, there’s not going to be a Model 3 or Model Y competitor right away.

I trust Cadillac SuperCruise more than Tesla AutoPilot. It’s safer.

Correct; Cadillac has the better judged 'auto pilot' then Tesla, along with better build quality. The old ATS-V had better handling than the Model 3 Performance does now. And the brand is profitable. Cadillac has numerous legs up on Tesla.

34 minutes ago, David said:

Tesla self driving is a Joke, proven to many times with lives lost!

Not Tesla's fault for a certain stupid Tesla owner that decides to do everything else BUT drive their vehicle while the vehicle is in motion...

We dont blame Ferrrari, Porsche, Chevrolet, Dodge , Lamborghini...hell, even Toyota for people going waaaaay over the speed limit with their fast cars and killing themselves and innocent people, now do we?

But here we are, we blame Tesla for autopilot?

Yeah..I know what Tesla marketed in the beginning with Autopilot including the name of it...but...let me repeat...we  dont blame sports car makers for their marketing of go fast cars with awesome go fast stickers and monikers on their cars and when the drivers of those vehicles and up in a killing spree...so why here?

Level 5 autonomous driving is not a thing nor will it ever be.

Regardless what system is better and reacts faster predicting a possible accident, both systems require a hand on the wheel and the driver alert  defeating the purpose of both Autopilot AND Supercruise. 

IF BOTH systems are used as an aid to prevent accidents while the driver is actually driving and being alert, then both systems are good enough...

Anything else other than that, the driver is fooling himself with something both systems are NOT...which is autonomous driving...which both systems are not...

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The shitty Tesla Model S interior looks worse before you even get to the stat sheet. 

You'll never get me into a Model S with those interiors even if it had a 1,000 mile range. A Cadillac interior, 300 would be sufficient. 

Have you seen the new Tesla 'steering wheel'?

57 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Cadillac EVs will likely cost more than Teslas at the start. The first EVs are supposed to be flag ships, there’s not going to be a Model 3 or Model Y competitor right away.

I trust Cadillac SuperCruise more than Tesla AutoPilot. It’s safer.

More expensive than Tesla isn’t really a good strategy unless the car is amazing.  And Mercedes and Porsche will be there too before the Celestiq, and you still have gas powered competition too.  
 

Autopilot doesn’t need mapped roads like Super Cruise does and I think the 2022 S-class is the only level 3 autonomy car available this year although Elon claims the Model S will be.  
 

Although I don’t think the differences in self driving systems will sway buyers to one brand or another.  It is about the race to level 5 autonomy so Tesla can sell rides in a robot taxi and have a car generate 5-10 years of revenue rather than a 1 time sale.

51 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Correct; Cadillac has the better judged 'auto pilot' then Tesla, along with better build quality. The old ATS-V had better handling than the Model 3 Performance does now. And the brand is profitable. Cadillac has numerous legs up on Tesla.

We don’t know that Cadillac is profitable since GM doesn’t split out brand financials but I am sure they are.  
 

What Musk is banking on is getting to wheeler instead of selling a Model 3 for $50k and making no profit, getting that car to be a robo taxi and have it generate an income stream, and record all the data like how Google tracks web traffic and monetize that data.  Then that Model 3 might generate $100k of revenue and he is now making $50k profit per car and he still owns the car until he takes it out of commission and recycles it into a new car and repeats the process.

22 minutes ago, regfootball said:

Have you seen the new Tesla 'steering wheel'?

Rumor is it looks like an airplane yoke because they are getting ready for the Roadster which can “fly for a little bit” according to Elon.  And the thought is a pull back could activate the take off.  But otherwise the no stalks thing I think is dumb.

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Not Tesla's fault for a certain stupid Tesla owner that decides to do everything else BUT drive their vehicle while the vehicle is in motion...

We dont blame Ferrrari, Porsche, Chevrolet, Dodge , Lamborghini...hell, even Toyota for people going waaaaay over the speed limit with their fast cars and killing themselves and innocent people, now do we?

But here we are, we blame Tesla for autopilot?

Yeah..I know what Tesla marketed in the beginning with Autopilot including the name of it...but...let me repeat...we  dont blame sports car makers for their marketing of go fast cars with awesome go fast stickers and monikers on their cars and when the drivers of those vehicles and up in a killing spree...so why here?

Level 5 autonomous driving is not a thing nor will it ever be.

Regardless what system is better and reacts faster predicting a possible accident, both systems require a hand on the wheel and the driver alert  defeating the purpose of both Autopilot AND Supercruise. 

IF BOTH systems are used as an aid to prevent accidents while the driver is actually driving and being alert, then both systems are good enough...

Anything else other than that, the driver is fooling himself with something both systems are NOT...which is autonomous driving...which both systems are not...

Fair enough Olds!  

Sadly it seems Tesla is using their customers for Alpha, Beta and Release Candidate testing with sad loss of life due to idiots that hear Auto Pilot and think that watching a movie is more important than the only job they really having, getting form Point A to B safely.

Agree, when a common sense sane person does their job, the so called Auto Pilot can work. Tesla really needs to relabel it and properly clearly state what it can and cannot do.

3 hours ago, David said:

Fair enough Olds!  

Sadly it seems Tesla is using their customers for Alpha, Beta and Release Candidate testing with sad loss of life due to idiots that hear Auto Pilot and think that watching a movie is more important than the only job they really having, getting form Point A to B safely.

Agree, when a common sense sane person does their job, the so called Auto Pilot can work. Tesla really needs to relabel it and properly clearly state what it can and cannot do.

They wont relabel it as Autopilot is a FANTASTIC brand name for that kind of feature, although it IS highly misleading. But Tesla does STATE quite CLEARLY that you, the driver,  MUST have at least one hand on the wheel and be alert.   

Is it Supercruise though that there is a camera and sensor that records the driver's eyes and facial mannerisms to determine driver awareness?    If Tesla's Autopilot feature does not do that, then maybe it should.  But I do know the (Tesla ) car beeps at you if there is a prolonged time lapse when there is no hand on the steering wheel. 

On 1/31/2021 at 11:21 PM, smk4565 said:

More expensive than Tesla isn’t really a good strategy unless the car is amazing.  And Mercedes and Porsche will be there too before the Celestiq, and you still have gas powered competition too.  
 

Autopilot doesn’t need mapped roads like Super Cruise does and I think the 2022 S-class is the only level 3 autonomy car available this year although Elon claims the Model S will be.  
 

Although I don’t think the differences in self driving systems will sway buyers to one brand or another.  It is about the race to level 5 autonomy so Tesla can sell rides in a robot taxi and have a car generate 5-10 years of revenue rather than a 1 time sale.

You might want to actually read about the many problems with Teslas Autopilot before speaking of its alleged “superiority”.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/17/18629214/tesla-autopilot-crash-death-josh-brown-jeremy-banner

On 1/31/2021 at 8:21 PM, smk4565 said:

Autopilot doesn’t need mapped roads like Super Cruise does and I think the 2022 S-class is the only level 3 autonomy car available this year although Elon claims the Model S will be.  
 

Although I don’t think the differences in self driving systems will sway buyers to one brand or another.  It is about the race to level 5 autonomy so Tesla can sell rides in a robot taxi and have a car generate 5-10 years of revenue rather than a 1 time sale.

? Unproven tech from Diamler, level 3, Multiple deaths for autopilot from Tesla and Super Cruise from GM that has not had any deaths related to it yet and it is a proven working technology. 

Super Cruise for the win at this point. We can debate your Model S Level 3 after it has some actual real world road time on it.

Quote

 

After Brown’s death, Tesla said its camera failed to recognize the white truck against a bright sky; the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) essentially found that Brown was not paying attention to the road and exonerated Tesla. It determined he set his car’s cruise control at 74 mph about two minutes before the crash, and he should have had at least seven seconds to notice the truck before crashing into it.

Federal investigators have yet to make a determination in Banner’s death. In a preliminary report released May 15th, the National Traffic Safety Board (NTSB) said that Banner engaged Autopilot about 10 seconds before the collision. “From less than 8 seconds before the crash to the time of impact, the vehicle did not detect the driver’s hands on the steering wheel,” NTSB said. The vehicle was traveling at 68 mph when it crashed.

 

Although in the 2nd accident, shyte Tesla software failed to detect that the Darwin contestant didnt have his hands on the wheel...  BOTH Darwin postulants engineered their own deaths by NOT driving their phoquing cars...

I have sympathy for their loved ones they leave behind, but I dont have ANY empathy for both of those guys...  And I CERTAINLY dont blame Tesla for ANY of that. 

Common...

Lets NOT blame Tesla for that kinda shyte!!!

On 1/31/2021 at 11:21 PM, smk4565 said:

More expensive than Tesla isn’t really a good strategy unless the car is amazing.  And Mercedes and Porsche will be there too before the Celestiq, and you still have gas powered competition too.  
 

Autopilot doesn’t need mapped roads like Super Cruise does and I think the 2022 S-class is the only level 3 autonomy car available this year although Elon claims the Model S will be.  
 

Although I don’t think the differences in self driving systems will sway buyers to one brand or another.  It is about the race to level 5 autonomy so Tesla can sell rides in a robot taxi and have a car generate 5-10 years of revenue rather than a 1 time sale.

Any current Cadillac interior is better than any Tesla interior. Fit, finish, materials, build quality....take your pic, the Cadillac is better.

If Cadillac does to their EVs what they did with the upper Escalade, it’s no contest 

8 hours ago, David said:

? Unproven tech from Diamler, level 3, Multiple deaths for autopilot from Tesla and Super Cruise from GM that has not had any deaths related to it yet and it is a proven working technology. 

Super Cruise for the win at this point. We can debate your Model S Level 3 after it has some actual real world road time on it.

Humans kill 35,000 people a year in car crashes in just the USA.  If semi-autonomous or autonomous drive even cut that in half, that is a substantial amount of lives saved.

30 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Any current Cadillac interior is better than any Tesla interior. Fit, finish, materials, build quality....take your pic, the Cadillac is better.

If Cadillac does to their EVs what they did with the upper Escalade, it’s no contest 

The XT5, XT4 interiors are nothing special, a Tesla Model S is as nice as those.  Overall as a brand, Cadillac has better interiors than Tesla.  But Tesla has more performance, Tesla's XT6 competitor is faster than a Corvette.  

Technology will play a role too, EV range, and most importantly brand image.   Tesla outsells Cadillac now, I don't see why Tesla won't in 5 years.  

41 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If semi-autonomous or autonomous drive even cut that in half, that is a substantial amount of lives saved.

How would that remotely happen? Isn’t tesla charging buyers like 5 grand to unlock autopilot? Would take 150 years to get even half the vehicles to be on an ‘autopilot’ on all roads. ‘tis to laugh.

50 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The XT5, XT4 interiors are nothing special, a Tesla Model S is as nice as those.  Overall as a brand, Cadillac has better interiors than Tesla.  But Tesla has more performance, Tesla's XT6 competitor is faster than a Corvette.  

Technology will play a role too, EV range, and most importantly brand image.   Tesla outsells Cadillac now, I don't see why Tesla won't in 5 years.  

That’s because Tesla has had the bulk of the EV market to themselves. Let’s revisit those numbers in about three to five years when the competition goes all in on EVs. 
 

And Tesla interiors are garbage in fit and finish and quality. You are delusional to think otherwise much think it’s better than Cadillac. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Humans kill 35,000 people a year in car crashes in just the USA.  If semi-autonomous or autonomous drive even cut that in half, that is a substantial amount of lives saved.

There is absolutely no correlation or data to suggest that will actually happen. Hell, in its current form, autopilot has made it worse. Ask the idiots who decided to take naps while their Tesla’s “drove” them home. 

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

How would that remotely happen? Isn’t tesla charging buyers like 5 grand to unlock autopilot? Would take 150 years to get even half the vehicles to be on an ‘autopilot’ on all roads. ‘tis to laugh.

I imagine by 2030 level 2 autonomy will be mandated the way ABS is now.  So every new car will have it.  The S-class can go to level 4 on a gel-fenced area next year, so by 2032 I bet many cars are capable of that.

14 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

That’s because Tesla has had the bulk of the EV market to themselves. Let’s revisit those numbers in about three to five years when the competition goes all in on EVs. 
 

And Tesla interiors are garbage in fit and finish and quality. You are delusional to think otherwise much think it’s better than Cadillac. 

There is absolutely no correlation or data to suggest that will actually happen. Hell, in its current form, autopilot has made it worse. Ask the idiots who decided to take naps while their Tesla’s “drove” them home. 

I said Cadillac has better interiors than Tesla.  But Tesla outsells Cadillac anyway.  

Not just auto pilot but all self driving systems.  

There’s no legitimate safety-based case for mandating an autonomous driving feature.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I said Cadillac has better interiors than Tesla.  But Tesla outsells Cadillac anyway.  

 

You also said that models like the XT4 and XT5 were no better than the Tesla S hence my rebuttal, skipping the fact that the S cost $30-40K MORE with that uninspiring interior.

"The XT5, XT4 interiors are nothing special, a Tesla Model S is as nice as those."

18 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The XT5, XT4 interiors are nothing special, a Tesla Model S is as nice as those.  

AAAAAAaaabsolutely not.... and I'm no big fan of the XT interiors (though XT6 is nice enough if a bit bland in styling)

The Model S interior is very creaky, loads of cheap plastic, misaligned panels and seams, minimalism to the point of starkness, and lets not forget the window switches from a Dodge Dart.

18 hours ago, balthazar said:

How would that remotely happen? Isn’t tesla charging buyers like 5 grand to unlock autopilot? Would take 150 years to get even half the vehicles to be on an ‘autopilot’ on all roads. ‘tis to laugh.

$10k on the Model Y I priced out yesterday. 

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

There’s no legitimate safety-based case for mandating an autonomous driving feature.

Have you seen the drivers in NJ?

53 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Have you seen the drivers in NJ?

Your bringing back the year and half I lived out of a hotel in Princeton for a job and your right, the drivers there are scary stuff!  

Wife's co-worker moved here recently from somewhere a number of states away, and her comment RE Jersey drivers was priceless; "lawless animals". It's fine here, just keep your slow-ass in the right lane.

Most accidents aren't on limited major highways where AD currently is enablable, they're on all other roads. I declined to pay $900 for the 'safety package' option on my ordered truck, and I'd never pay $2-10 grand to momentarily take my hands off the wheel so... I can rest them in my lap yet still have to be alert/looking thru the windshield. Amazing that some folk think this is a viable choice.

IMO, that's like paying 10 grand to hit an optional button while you're driving, every 10 seconds, that silences the buzzer that's letting you know you're driving.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Wife's co-worker moved here recently from somewhere a number of states away, and her comment RE Jersey drivers was priceless; "lawless animals". It's fine here, just keep your slow-ass in the right lane.

I'm a much calmer driver here in Pittsburgh. They're overly polite in this city to the point of being annoying.  When I'm back in NJ or NY, I turn into Mr. Hyde. 

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Most accidents aren't on limited major highways where AD currently is enablable, they're on all other roads. I declined to pay $900 for the 'safety package' option on my ordered truck, and I'd never pay $2-10 grand to momentarily take my hands off the wheel so... I can rest them in my lap yet still have to be alert/looking thru the windshield. Amazing that some folk think this is a viable choice.

But the more severe accidents are on the high speed highways. My experience driving a SuperCruise Cadillac to NJ was that it was much less tiring than doing the driving myself.  In day to day commuting I'd want to drive myself, but after about 30 minutes on the PA Turnpike that I've driven hundreds of times, I'm fine letting the car do most of the driving. 

NJ is nothing compared to NYC drivers

And from my travel I have to say that MA drivers are not better than NJ.

15 minutes ago, ykX said:

NJ is nothing compared to NYC drivers

And from my travel I have to say that MA drivers are not better than NJ.

Totally agree, there seems to be two mind sets, those that see auto's as an appliance to be used and those that care about their auto and not wanting to mess it up. NJ, NY, MA, etc. I saw way too many new auto's messed up as the owners / drivers just did not care. I also saw those that did care. Clearly a mixed pot, but you have aggressive reckless drivers and then what I call the aggressive defensive driver. I put myself in the second camp of aggressive but defensive driver.

I want to get from point A to B and back but without damaging my auto.

Some very cool Stuff GM has done on the CES web site in relation to their EV long term plans.

Exhibits | GM Exhibit Zero

Inflection Talks | GM Exhibit Zero

1 hour ago, David said:

those that see auto's as an appliance to be used and those that care about their auto and not wanting to mess it up

I don't think being aggressive driver and caring about your car are same things.  Also, living in big cities with very limited parking and a lot of congestion will put scuffs and dings on your car no matter how careful you are.  I haven't seen one big city where cars didn't look like they just came out of demolition derby.

On 2/10/2021 at 5:15 PM, balthazar said:

IMO, that's like paying 10 grand to hit an optional button while you're driving, every 10 seconds, that silences the buzzer that's letting you know you're driving.

I share your sentiment regarding "autonomous" driving. Including Supercruising. 

I have never thought it it that way but ABSOLUTELY YES!