2018 Dodge Durango SRT Packs 475 Horsepower

Sweet, One Bad Ass Ride!  

It is about time.  This should have been done at least with the 14 refresh.   Anyway, looking at the hood and those wheels i am rather positive I saw a test mule a few weeks ago. 

How about a Hellcat version? 

dodge is the dad rock band of the automotive world...

tries repeatedly and desperately to mimic its lone charting hit from a decade ago, can't successfully do anything new, and ends up just being the favourite of creepy uncles. 

7 minutes ago, FAPTurbo said:

dodge is the dad rock band of the automotive world...

tries repeatedly and desperately to mimic its lone charting hit from a decade ago, can't successfully do anything new, and ends up just being the favourite of creepy uncles. 

Its not just Dodge.. but FCA. They are the literal epitome of the One-Trick Pony. The made a $1.9 billion net profit for 2016, while Ford recorded a Net Income of $7.4B and GM pulled in $9.5B. To be clear.. FCA pulled in one year $100M less than what GM made in Q1 and exactly what Ford made in Q2.

They simply have no mix outside of the Muscle car strategy, constantly putting a big engine band-aid on their real cuts. No Mid-size, no compact, no hybrid (well except the minivan). They literally made profits from simply not reeeeeeeeeeally updating shit else but engines since 2006

3 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Its not just Dodge.. but FCA. They are the literal epitome of the One-Trick Pony. The made a $1.9 billion net profit for 2016, while Ford recorded a Net Income of $7.4B and GM pulled in $9.5B. To be clear.. FCA pulled in one year $100M less than what GM made in Q1 and exactly what Ford made in Q2.

They simply have no mix outside of the Muscle car strategy, constantly putting a big engine band-aid on their real cuts. No Mid-size, no compact, no hybrid (well except the minivan). They literally made profits from simply not reeeeeeeeeeally updating shit else but engines since 2006

They have a lot of brand equity with Jeep as far as SUVs go, though.   And Ram seems to still sell well w/ full size trucks.   But zilch in the (albeit declining) compact and midsize car niches.

1 minute ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

They have a lot of brand equity with Jeep as far as SUVs go, though.   And Ram seems to still sell well w/ full size trucks.   But zilch in the (albeit declining) compact and midsize car niches.

Yes. I bet good money that Jeep.. is the real responsible one for those profits... and of course what I mentioned before. Toyota is now getting hit with low profits because they FINALLY started updating some things. Before that.. they were riding on cars that were literally designed and engineered 10+ years ago. (See Corolla, Camry, Avalon, ES, RX..)

That being said.. bravo. GM should do something similar with the Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade. With them.. it wouldn't be a "band-aid" because these lines already sell in droves and are a part of defined line-ups

1 minute ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

That being said.. bravo. GM should do something similar with the Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade. With them.. it wouldn't be a "band-aid" because these lines already sell in droves and are a part of defined line-ups

 I'd love to see a Tahoe SS and Suburban SS, Escalade V-series, etc w/ lots of power...

5 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

 I'd love to see a Tahoe SS and Suburban SS, Escalade V-series, etc w/ lots of power...

Yup. Sick and easy thing for those is that as always.. GM V8s are easy as shit to add power to. Take a 6.2L and tune it, put a CAI on it and a nice exhaust and U are easily at about the same HP. Shit.. if U get the same parts that Hennessy uses and do it yourself.. U could get that 557 bhp and 542 lb-ft of torque for about $8K.. or the 665 bhp @ 5,500 rpm  658 lb-ft Torque @ 4,200 rpm for about $10K.

Hell the TVS 1900 Magnuson Supercharger kit is only $6K

I agree with what everyone has said.  A 475 hp crossover is cool, but if it costs $65,000 are there that many people that want an expensive Dodge?  Plus this is a bit of a dated vehicle now, they they are hoping putting a big engine in helps pump life into it but that usually doesn't work.  

FCA has no real strategy to sell to the masses, the 500 hp Alfa Romeo is fast as hell but they will sell like 50 a month.  Mostly of FCA's product is designed for what the market was, not what it is or where it is going.

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I agree with what everyone has said.  A 475 hp crossover is cool, but if it costs $65,000 are there that many people that want an expensive Dodge?  Plus this is a bit of a dated vehicle now, they they are hoping putting a big engine in helps pump life into it but that usually doesn't work.  

FCA has no real strategy to sell to the masses, the 500 hp Alfa Romeo is fast as hell but they will sell like 50 a month.  Mostly of FCA's product is designed for what the market was, not what it is or where it is going.

Hasn't stopped Charger and Challenger Hellcats from sellin out and they go deep into the 70k range fully loaded.  They will have no problem moving thse as the GC SRT is already the best selling SRT. 

Guys, neither the Durango or the 6.4, and certainly not the 8 speed ZF auto are old hat or dated.  I am glad the rest of the world doesn't just want to see a company die so bad they sit even on the good things they do.  give it a rest.

A Tahoe SS would be sweet as hell.  Love the latest gen even more than the last gen, which is amazing because I thought the last gen was impossible to improve upon. 

Flipping awesome!! Price this thing around 50K, and it will find buyers.

50k?  The SRT Grand Cherokee starts at 67k. It would be great to start at 50k but that just sounds way too low.  

Yeah,, 50 just isn't going to happen when you bread and butter Explorers, Durangos, Traverse, etc, can be optioned to 50 or 60k as is.  Tahoe starts out basically at 50k and can be optioned well into the 70s.  In any case, even at mid high 60k it is still a hell of a bargain for what you get. 

Time for FCA to clean house, Dump the stupid Fiat and Alfa brand names.

Move Fiat into Dodge.

Move the Minivan, Chrysler's sole product now into Dodge.

Move Alfa sole product into Chrysler and rebuild it as a Luxury line ONLY.

FCA becomes 4 product lines

Jeep, Dodge, Ram and Chrysler.

Spin off the other non-essential products.

 Totally agree with everyone about performance versions of GM Full Size SUV's.

23 minutes ago, Stew said:

 

Yeah,, 50 just isn't going to happen when you bread and butter Explorers, Durangos, Traverse, etc, can be optioned to 50 or 60k as is.  Tahoe starts out basically at 50k and can be optioned well into the 70s.  In any case, even at mid high 60k it is still a hell of a bargain for what you get. 

That's what I was thinking as well. But I guess if they would keep it at 60k and it would basically undercut the Tahoe/Expy with that performance that's a huge win.

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

Time for FCA to clean house, Dump the stupid Fiat and Alfa brand names.

Move Fiat into Dodge.

Move the Minivan, Chrysler's sole product now into Dodge.

Move Alfa sole product into Chrysler and rebuild it as a Luxury line ONLY.

FCA becomes 4 product lines

Jeep, Dodge, Ram and Chrysler.

Spin off the other non-essential products.

 Totally agree with everyone about performance versions of GM Full Size SUV's.

And that was part of my point. FCA is carrying  Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat,  Jeep, Ram,  and Maserati. & brands and nothing that is really appealing to the mainstream of today, nor anything that can truly deal with the perceived value of fuel efficiency.

They almost remind me of GM pre-2009. Waittaminute.. Didn't Chrysler also go BK??? SMDH. I remember people saying that because of Sergio's push for the SRTs and HC.. that FCA was doing more with their "second life" than GM, because GM had no dedicated performance division. 

They sell a lot of Fiats globally, that brand isn't going anywhere.  Chrysler should be the brand to die, they only sell them in North America, they have the smallest line up, really they could just make Dodge vans.  I don't see a need for Maserati and Alfa Romeo, but they need one of them because luxury cars equal profit.  Or at least they should assuming you can actually sell them.

It just makes you want one....

Nice ride but not what FCA needs.

Sergio needs volume soon and while these performance rides are cool they still lack the volume the company needs. 

FCA is in great need of volume, cost savings and smaller profitable vehicles for when gas goes up.

GM just for the first time sold 10 million vehicles in one year and they could still use more volume to lower cost and increase profitability. Development cost are just so high auto makers need to get all the details right.

One needs to remember GM went broke while it was making the Tahoe SS.

Sorry for being a downer but Sergio needs to go.

But like they say smoke em while you got em.

Even if Sergio goes, who the hell in the right mind would want to fill his post?

No one. NO ONE WANTS to be anywhere near FIAT at all.

The investors are STUCK. And this strategy of driving the rest of the products that if not making money, but keeps the lights on into oblivion... Well, if had to get rid of Chrysler....remember how there are rumours there will not be another 300, or that changing the name to Pacifica was also meant to be a fail-safe in case the van had to be shifted to Dodge...

This has happened before in many places, not even auto industry. Reckless frivolity, which while it's nice to be able to cater to enthusiasts...it's an ever shrinking buyer pool, there's already so much saturation, and the people in that group only know at this point to buy $100k plus luxo/performance SUVs or the next size class up from the Durango from Amercian makes that are well equipped $60k plus and BOF.

This is not an automotive white space. White space refers to a MAJOR WIN. Like you make a segment, you will it into existence and it EXPLODES. What will this do at all? Wouldn't someone wanting a 3-row GC SRT, want a 3-row GC SRT? And if going to the Durango SRT means more vehicle for less money and almost as good interior with the new update....

1 hour ago, hyperv6 said:

Nice ride but not what FCA needs.

Sergio needs volume soon and while these performance rides are cool they still lack the volume the company needs. 

FCA is in great need of volume, cost savings and smaller profitable vehicles for when gas goes up.

GM just for the first time sold 10 million vehicles in one year and they could still use more volume to lower cost and increase profitability. Development cost are just so high auto makers need to get all the details right.

One needs to remember GM went broke while it was making the Tahoe SS.

Sorry for being a downer but Sergio needs to go.

But like they say smoke em while you got em.

I agree with all that.   FCA doesn't really have any new product, so they just try special editions of dated cars or drop a big V8 in a dated car, at a time when V8 sales are falling off a cliff.  Sure enthusiasts like performance, but if this thing is like $60-70k there are a lot of other high performance options for that kind of money.  It might look good in a commercial or create some attention which is all well and good, but FCA lacks the bread and butter products.  

There is nothing exciting about a Camry or RAV4, but products like that have made Toyota one of the richest car companies there is, they literally sell millions of them around the world every year.  You have to be able to make money in the core segments.

In January small cars outsold large cars by a 9 to 1 ratio, and I don't think gas prices really have anything to do with it, but incomes aren't rising and car prices are.  And I think most buyers don't want a large vehicle, even most crossover sales are small to mid-size.  You have to have cars people can afford to buy if you are a volume brand.

There are many factors in play.

There are fix issues like how the market has changed. Large cars, coupes are dying. Small cars 

Mis size trucks and CUV models are growing. 

Large suv and truck are subject to gas prices. 

All models are getting price sensitive.

Customers today are half women an half men. They are not seeing income growth due to a long stagnate economy. People keep their cars much longer. They are looking for less expensive, roomy, with good utility vehicles with good mpg and quality. This is the formula of the CUV. 

Even if it is not a truck you make it tall and feel like a SUV and people of both sexes are attracted to it thou it really is a tall mini van. 

Performance still has a place but it is limited. Boomers are getting older and leaving the muscle cars behind. The younger people have little connection to them and can not afford their BMW, SUV and SS play car. They settle for a M series sedan on a lease band move on.

the younger kids can not afford the RS at $42k and even if they can insurance is beyond their car payment, rent and social life. They now no longer need a cool car to socialize as they have a galaxy or I7 phone. The no longer cruise the mall or burger joint. They shop, meet friends band get to second base on the smart phone.

We all can not think of things as we used to think. While things are not completely gone the order of importance is not what it once was.

Toyota, Honda and VW have ridden to the top on small, quality, high mpg cars that are not always cheap. Those looking for cheap go to Hyundai and feel like they are saving till they have service issues like timing belts and water pump failures in a car with leaky shocks.

GM has done well with the boring CUV models that were not perfect and out dated. I have not seen the new models yet but expect them to be some the best sellers in the GM line up. The nox and Terrain has racked up well more than 350k  units per year. I expect this to continue and improve.

11 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

Even if Sergio goes, who the hell in the right mind would want to fill his post?

No one. NO ONE WANTS to be anywhere near FIAT at all.

The investors are STUCK. And this strategy of driving the rest of the products that if not making money, but keeps the lights on into oblivion... Well, if had to get rid of Chrysler....remember how there are rumours there will not be another 300, or that changing the name to Pacifica was also meant to be a fail-safe in case the van had to be shifted to Dodge...

This has happened before in many places, not even auto industry. Reckless frivolity, which while it's nice to be able to cater to enthusiasts...it's an ever shrinking buyer pool, there's already so much saturation, and the people in that group only know at this point to buy $100k plus luxo/performance SUVs or the next size class up from the Durango from Amercian makes that are well equipped $60k plus and BOF.

This is not an automotive white space. White space refers to a MAJOR WIN. Like you make a segment, you will it into existence and it EXPLODES. What will this do at all? Wouldn't someone wanting a 3-row GC SRT, want a 3-row GC SRT? And if going to the Durango SRT means more vehicle for less money and almost as good interior with the new update....

 

 

Are you kidding me? At this point, a blind one armed chimp could do a better job than Sergio. 

11 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

Even if Sergio goes, who the hell in the right mind would want to fill his post?

No one. NO ONE WANTS to be anywhere near FIAT at all.

The investors are STUCK. And this strategy of driving the rest of the products that if not making money, but keeps the lights on into oblivion... Well, if had to get rid of Chrysler....remember how there are rumours there will not be another 300, or that changing the name to Pacifica was also meant to be a fail-safe in case the van had to be shifted to Dodge...

This has happened before in many places, not even auto industry. Reckless frivolity, which while it's nice to be able to cater to enthusiasts...it's an ever shrinking buyer pool, there's already so much saturation, and the people in that group only know at this point to buy $100k plus luxo/performance SUVs or the next size class up from the Durango from Amercian makes that are well equipped $60k plus and BOF.

This is not an automotive white space. White space refers to a MAJOR WIN. Like you make a segment, you will it into existence and it EXPLODES. What will this do at all? Wouldn't someone wanting a 3-row GC SRT, want a 3-row GC SRT? And if going to the Durango SRT means more vehicle for less money and almost as good interior with the new update....

I will happily take Sergio's place as I can do a way better job than he is doing.

I would start by killing the Alfa, Keep Fiat in Europe where it is big, kill Fiat in the US. Move Fiat products to Dodge rebadged. Move dodge products to Fiat rebadged, Chrysler become pure Luxury and mini van is moved to dodge. Dodge is the car brand, Jeep the SUV brand and Ram the truck brand. If it is not complete now, push to complete a single dealership one stop shop with Jeep, Dodge, Ram & Chrysler. Move the Alfa auto to Chrysler. Update the 300 to be a competent competitor.

So much can be done to improve the company and not the way Sergio is doing it. He is a complete idiot!

13 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

Nice ride but not what FCA needs.

Sergio needs volume soon and while these performance rides are cool they still lack the volume the company needs. 

FCA is in great need of volume, cost savings and smaller profitable vehicles for when gas goes up.

GM just for the first time sold 10 million vehicles in one year and they could still use more volume to lower cost and increase profitability. Development cost are just so high auto makers need to get all the details right.

One needs to remember GM went broke while it was making the Tahoe SS.

Sorry for being a downer but Sergio needs to go.

But like they say smoke em while you got em.

Jeep is the volume.  FCA is right on the heels of Ford, less than 400 retail units seperated them this month and they are very high up  on the total sales charts.  I have issues seeing what makes them so different, especially being smaller than GM or Ford, that they need to be, what, the number 1 seller in the US?  Never mind models they are pretty much at the top of their production capacity right now.   Also, FE is NOT a big deal right now and my guess is VERY soon it will not be with the current government either.  I see the EPA FE of 2025 either being greatly reduced if not shelved altogether.  So yes, burn em while ya can, performance has a second breath. 

Also, while Sergio could do a better job, some things people hold against him i think is ridiculous.  Everyone called him nuts when he decided to concentrate on SUVs and CUVs instead of small/midsize cars and guess what?  Sales of those cars are getting worse and dropping every month while the SUVs and CUVs soar and companies like Ford, Lincoln, and Cadillac are rushing to make the models the public demands while their cars stagnate on the lots.  Alfa is a wait and see, but I have faith especially in the Stelvio crossover and the pretty sweet new platform that will be making it's wait through FCA over the next few years.  Kind of how Cadillac got the Alpha platform to itself for a few years before it started trickling down via the Camaro.  I honestly don't see how something can be A-OK for Ford and GM, bu Chrysler does the same damned thing and it is the worse decision ever.  How hypocritical...... 

A RWD Durango R/T starts @ 42K. 45K for AWD. This will be nowhere near as luxurious as the SRT Grand Cherokee. There's no reason why they can't start this in the low 50's.

44 minutes ago, Stew said:

Jeep is the volume.  FCA is right on the heels of Ford, less than 400 retail units separated them this month and they are very high up  on the total sales charts.  I have issues seeing what makes them so different, especially being smaller than GM or Ford, that they need to be, what, the number 1 seller in the US?  Never mind models they are pretty much at the top of their production capacity right now.   Also, FE is NOT a big deal right now and my guess is VERY soon it will not be with the current government either.  I see the EPA FE of 2025 either being greatly reduced if not shelved altogether.  So yes, burn em while ya can, performance has a second breath. 

Jeep is not enough volume for the corporation.

Segio said Alfa would be supply 400,000 north American sales by 2018. Well he his going to come a lot short. They sold 52 cars in Dec.

EPA FE may get a delay but it will still be on the automakers for the global markets as they will not change what they have. Also in 4 years they know things can revert. So do not expect major changes.

Here are some real world issues they face

Here is the problems first No One Wants to Merge. They need a dance partner and no one wants to play. This drives up their development cost and why they want to base everything on the Alfa.

Second FCA is Lagging Behind Competitors In Everything From Quality to MPG. In nearly every aspect they have fallen behind in technology and advanced building methods that help make better cars and lower cost.

 Most of FCA’s Models are Outsold by the Competition Except for Jeep and Ram there are no solid volume products they offer. Jeep and Ram is not enough to meet the volumes they need to meet future needs to leverage development cost. How do I know this because Sergio said that he needed 400,000 Alfa units on top of what they have now to meet the needs by 2018. Well I do not see them coming close to that at Alfa. 150,000 of these Alfa sales were in North America.

 Margins are Still Down. The ATP Is very low on their vehicles vs. most other brands.

 Platforms are Old Going to Fiat and Alfa Sourced Platforms to save money but it will compromise things if they base it all on one platform.

Manufacturing Costs Are Too High Fiat is way over capacity and they are very inefficient in building cars. This hold back profits per vehicle and adds to their development cost.

 Fleet MPG Sucks and if gas goes up they will risk going stagnate in sales.

FCA Needs to Boost Global Operations Outside They are struggling in Europe and really lack much in China where most companies have found to drive their prod its and investment leverage. FCA lacks this and leaves a ton on the table in income and volume.

No Progress with Autonomous Driving. While I like to think this is not really bad thing they are so far behind the others. They can buy a system but it takes money.

More Debt Than Cash This is the big one. They are still paying off things from the past and they still have much they need to invest in but they hold a major Debt while most companies hold a Cash position vs. debt.

FCA has had many quality issues and a return buyer percentage of 25% second lowest in the industry.

Sergio has had two plans one in 2013 and 2015 for the second. He is now on a third plan and none have been realistic. The most recent is closer to what he should have done in 2013 but he should let Chrysler do the work not Alfa.  The delusions of taking BMW owners is not real. Alfa selling 400,000 globally is just nuts.

Anyone know how many cars Alfa sold in America in October? 23. Yes only 23 cars in America. so when you read last December they doubled sales in America yes they did 52 cars were sold. If they could have sold 7 more they could have beat the Viper.

This was December of 2016 This is the division Sergio said would be selling 150.000 units in America by next year. Is this the kind of numbers you would be planning the future of your company on. Even adding the CUV model is not going to meet these numbers.

There is a select group of people the Alfa attracts mostly people wanting something different than a BMW and that is a small group. It is not a cheap line and the reliability has yet to be proven.

What I cover here is just a gloss over of the real issues. These are very deep issues and not ones easily overcome. Dig into their cost, debts and need for development cost reductions and it is not a promising picture.

At some point Sergio will run out of time as jeep can only bail him out for so long as his needs for cash become even greater.

The bottom line is FCA has many cash and debt issues. They have many development things they need to do with no help like Ford and GM working together on transmissions. They have tons of fleet sales and heavy discounted vehicles. They are over capacity and are having trouble filling these plants as the wrong products are being enhanced.

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

I will happily take Sergio's place as I can do a way better job than he is doing.

I would start by killing the Alfa, Keep Fiat in Europe where it is big, kill Fiat in the US. Move Fiat products to Dodge rebadged. Move dodge products to Fiat rebadged, Chrysler become pure Luxury and mini van is moved to dodge. Dodge is the car brand, Jeep the SUV brand and Ram the truck brand. If it is not complete now, push to complete a single dealership one stop shop with Jeep, Dodge, Ram & Chrysler. Move the Alfa auto to Chrysler. Update the 300 to be a competent competitor.

So much can be done to improve the company and not the way Sergio is doing it. He is a complete idiot!

Yeah. If I wanted to better Sergio.. and make more money for the FCA shareholders.. I'd simply Sell off Maserati (Truly one of the biggest let downs in the history of autos IMO. Get in one and U will swear U are in a Mazda at best) and Jeep. Jeep would make a nice addition to GM since they refuse to bring back Hummer. Maserati to Ford for a actual premium name at least. I bet good money I'd bring in more black than they did all year with those two sales, in particular Jeep. Maserati could probably be bought for what I have in my pocket tho

3 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Yeah. If I wanted to better Sergio.. and make more money for the FCA shareholders.. I'd simply Sell off Maserati (Truly one of the biggest let downs in the history of autos IMO. Get in one and U will swear U are in a Mazda at best) and Jeep. Jeep would make a nice addition to GM since they refuse to bring back Hummer. Maserati to Ford for a actual premium name at least. I bet good money I'd bring in more black than they did all year with those two sales, in particular Jeep. Maserati could probably be bought for what I have in my pocket tho

So Like Pretty Woman, sell off bits of the company and then restructure the rest and see if it can survive.

I would not say Sergio is stupid. 

Cause, the way the company has set FCA US LLC, it's pretty evident from the start who were the have's and the have nots.

And killing off cars that don't make money for the company, but just to try to fill huge product holes cannot work. The reason why the 200 ended up almost a class size smaller was because Chyrlser itself had no small sedan. And the Dodge Dart was dimensionally larger than its peers because the Avenger wasn't going to be Avenged by another product...

It's happened before, everyone knew that FCA got a MAJOR WIN by scoring a bankrupt Chyrsler, because they HAD product in the pipeline, just NO money to fulfill those plans. I suspect that the cars might have even been finally, very competitive. But Fiat came in, saw the cash cows, developed Jeep enough to sell to more markets with smaller displacement engines, and is riding the RAM and LX cars for as long as preposteriously possible.

I think the problem with Alfa, is that locking up Ferrari and Maserati engineers to make a much less expensive product....these guys are used to having lots of wiggle room, because cost isn't an issue when it can easily be transferred to the customer, with Ferrari.

I think the plan for Alfa was too ambitious, it takes a long time to make the very best chassis from scratch....and then to make it modular and allow it to underpin so many vehicles....

For example, Cadillac's Alpha (heh, Alfa....Alpha) anyways, that platform cannot be used for CUV's, it was designed for sport sedans in mind first, and it would not be worth it to re-engineer it. As well, performance crossovers, big speed is good enough. I can't imagine a Mercedes-Mommymobile-AMG GLE63 being used on a track....ever....unless for people being very frivolous and of poor taste.

And that's the last of me being off topic. This is a great idea. Take an already familiar with engine, put it into a product where it fits, and you know exactly what needs to be done. I suspect the development cost was very little, the biggest expense would have been the new fascia, not much more.

So....I just, alright, I know that the price will be good, and that the truck itself, for being a few years old now, it has held up very well. The ZF8HP, such a great tranny.  

But how much longer till the SRT becomes irrelevant?

I think the issue with FCA, is that they had the wrong approach to bringing the Giorgio platform online. Even if they debuted a dumbed down version of it first, for the American FCA brands...they would have had a lot more volume, and just keeping the lights on helps so much.  And the American FCA brands have wiggle room for rough edges, they're still much more well known than Alfa. Then, the refined, fully fleshed out and realized Alfa Giulia would come out....still right about now, maybe a year later....but it would also be a better car for it. They could price it more competitively. They could reduce costs by trimming what they later will find out now that isn't needed.