NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Fatal Crash With Tesla's Autopilot

Yawn, sad for the loss of life but like anything that pushes the limits of what one can do in an auto, there is always going to be accidents.

Imperfect humans building imperfect autos.

In Tesla's case, EXTREMELY imperfect.

They say that one day, artificial intelligence will  rival and exceed human intelligence...and they say that that day will be coming sooner rather than later.  Faster than we think...

After this fatal accident, alls I could say is that we arent there yet.

I wanna make another point....I want to say that although artificial intelligence may be just around the corner, artificial stupidity has a very very very long way to go before it surpasses human stupidity...

A 40 year old put all his faith on a machine...on a technology that will probably NEVER be perfected as long as humans are in control...whether other humans are still driving on the very same roads as these machines or are in control of any input programming...

Darwinism in effect is alls Im saying...self destruction seems to be a human thing....

They say that one day, artificial intelligence will  rival and exceed human intelligence...and they say that that day will be coming sooner rather than later.  Faster than we think...

After this fatal accident, alls I could say is that we arent there yet.

 

I wanna make another point....I want to say that although artificial intelligence may be just around the corner, artificial stupidity has a very very very long way to go before it surpasses human stupidity...

 

A 40 year old put all his faith on a machine...on a technology that will probably NEVER be perfected as long as humans are in control...whether other humans are still driving on the very same roads as these machines or are in control of any input programming...

 

Darwinism in effect is alls Im saying...self destruction seems to be a human thing....

So true,

This is why I think all the Seat belt laws are just a pure taxation / money grab on the population. You cannot nor do we need to protect society against stupidity. It is what cleans out the idiots no matter how smart they are.

It's the insurance companies.

It's win-win. Higher premiums for less safe cars means people gravitate to higher safety cars when buying new or used.

Higher safety cars themselves add more cost and compromise ... the cost of safety passed down into the purchase price, the extra tech options needs to overcome piss poor outward visibility, among other things...higher weight of more airbags...more weight or if in a performance car, extra cost of keeping weight low passed to consumer.

And autopilot, NOT at all meant as a safety feature...now means Tesla insurance premiums will somehow find a healthy increase.

And then...higher price car....higher premium - yet even though the car does its job better - reduces fatality...which means smaller payouts...repair coverage is easily favored over a fatal accident coverage...

When they get to set the rules as to what makes a vehicle safe - they can perpetually increase the cost of vehicles, and the only thing setting things straight is that the manufacturers are becoming competitive as hell...

If it takes one person to die to prevent other idiots from abusing a system that clearly states driver interaction is required, them's the brakes. 

If it takes one person to die to prevent other idiots from abusing a system that clearly states driver interaction is required, them's the brakes. 

So....if it takes driver awareness to be able to have driver interaction to help autonomous driving prevent an accident....then what is the point?

1. Just be aware while you drive in the first place and cut this shyte with LCD screens and GPS maps and connectivity and JUST DRIVE the PHOKING CAR!!!

Do away with all these sensors and aids that are supposedly there to help us...they dont help us...they make us rely on them and make us lazier and dumber in the process...

2. DONT GIVE DRIVERS LICENSES TO EVERY TOM, DICK and HARRY...

Let these distracted and/or poor reflexes and poor judgement human beings use Lyft and Uber services  if those people dont want or cant use public transportation...

 

They say that one day, artificial intelligence will  rival and exceed human intelligence...and they say that that day will be coming sooner rather than later.  Faster than we think...

After this fatal accident, alls I could say is that we arent there yet.

 

I wanna make another point....I want to say that although artificial intelligence may be just around the corner, artificial stupidity has a very very very long way to go before it surpasses human stupidity...

 

A 40 year old put all his faith on a machine...on a technology that will probably NEVER be perfected as long as humans are in control...whether other humans are still driving on the very same roads as these machines or are in control of any input programming...

 

Darwinism in effect is alls Im saying...self destruction seems to be a human thing....

So true,

 

This is why I think all the Seat belt laws are just a pure taxation / money grab on the population. You cannot nor do we need to protect society against stupidity. It is what cleans out the idiots no matter how smart they are.

 

So freakin' true. 

I HATE seat belt and helmet laws. I am an avid user of both and won't travel w/o either. I put my seat belt on to move my car around the driveway out of habit but I think it is absolute bull$h! for something like that to be a law. Unless all of our insurance premiums go down because they have less medical bills to pay then it's stupid. This is one thing that gets under my skin really quick. If people are stupid enough to not wear them, let them pay the price. If somebody is that stupid we don't need them anyway as a society as they must be short sighted, lazy, stupid, or all the above. 

 

If it takes one person to die to prevent other idiots from abusing a system that clearly states driver interaction is required, them's the brakes. 

So....if it takes driver awareness to be able to have driver interaction to help autonomous driving prevent an accident....then what is the point?

 

1. Just be aware while you drive in the first place and cut this shyte with LCD screens and GPS maps and connectivity and JUST DRIVE the PHOKING CAR!!!

Do away with all these sensors and aids that are supposedly there to help us...they dont help us...they make us rely on them and make us lazier and dumber in the process...

 

2. DONT GIVE DRIVERS LICENSES TO EVERY TOM, DICK and HARRY...

Let these distracted and/or poor reflexes and poor judgement human beings use Lyft and Uber services  if those people dont want or cant use public transportation...

 

+1 - as I've used all of mine up today. 

But I am on the side of "if one person has to die to prevent others from abusing a system that clearly states driver interaction is required" isn't a terrible thing.. Yes, a tragic loss... but one that should help advance the systems and HOPEFULLY mankind. 

Now the thing is....how many people driving cars that don't have any kind of autonomous driving or safety aids barrel (like collision alert or auto-braking) through an intersection without a stop light into the side of a tractor-trailer...

to get a hair cut that such that the hair will never grow back? Probably tens, hundreds, heck maybe thousands of people every year in the U.S. alone.

YUP. I think this crash was inevitable. I think drivers should heed what automakers say in the fine print - these features are driver aids, not drivers themselves...not now. Maybe not in a good while. 

Well, Suave...

Like I said...easily distracted drivers should not be able to be legally driving....Lyft and Uber and Taxi service and public transportation is as autonomous driving as it gets...

And...I agree with you...this kind of accident was inevitable and many more to come.

As for the fine print....some of us read it, some of us dont, but all of us NEVER listen to the message anyway...

Fine print is only good for the lawyers of those that produce the fine print to absolve any fault...

Its best that this 'helpful' technology go away...

Its time to re-evaluate how we teach people how to drive...

Well, recently I had to draft up a liability waiver so...and there's a ton of things legal entities hide in the print or display aggressively....

Basically any attempt to pursue litigation in the case of negligence is waived. I even mentioned 'negligent rescue operations' from law enforcement.

YA. Legalese. FUN! 

Well as the Ford engineer told me once. We engineer to not make cars fool proof but we make them idiot proof. 

But even then never underestimate the abilities of an Idiot. 

We have a long way to go here as there are just so many variables that sensors and even the best electronics can not keep up with. 

The fact is even in cases of some of the greatest minds and advancements simple things can fail and not be accounted for with devastating effects. For example. The Space Shuttle has some of the greatest engineers in the world working on it. To conserve the air speed they decided to make the landing gear only come out at a specific air speed before it would land. Sounds like a great ideas and how could this go wrong. Well they forgot to account for a tail wind bringing the Shuttle in faster than expected and at a lower altitude then it should have been. The shuttle came with in 3 seconds of belly landing. This was kept quiet for a long time and they changed the gear to being put down by the crew. 

The fact is the human is the weak link where things can go wrong. But the Human is also the one link that can take control and make the right things happen when things do go wrong. In place of working to make these electronic systems better should we not be working more to get the humans to be better too.

It is being reported this guy had a video of Harry Potter playing in the car.

I feel we should remain keeping people engaged in driving as when we take them out and things go south they will be doing other things and not ready to take control. Most people are not disciplined enough to rely on these systems. This is why many people do not and should not fly.  

I think we are better left with driver assist systems to prevent mistakes but still keep the driver in the loop to the point they have to pay attention. If not we will have many more of these deals. 

Hell I have a braking system assist now that like to read cars on side roads on a curve and applies the brakes even if the car is not in my path and stopped on the side road. My wife asked me if I could shut that off the first day we owned the car. It is a pain in the Ass. 

The guy was watching Harry Potter when all of this went down. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

He was a typical Tesla geek though.  Tesla is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Since adult diapers.  Since Jesus himself.  Tesla is saving the human race from itself.  There is your future, right? 

Well, why would it matter which car it is?

All of the American brands are working on autonomous driving. Mercedes has similar tech in the E-Class.... Everyone, everyone is doing this stuff. And there's been times electronics have malfunction...and it WAS the car itself, not the driver. Such as say Toyota's ETCU's for so long.

And I think we're all glad your finally admitted just how important Tesla is to the world. 

Well, why would it matter which car it is?

 

All of the American brands are working on autonomous driving. Mercedes has similar tech in the E-Class.... Everyone, everyone is doing this stuff. And there's been times electronics have malfunction...and it WAS the car itself, not the driver. Such as say Toyota's ETCU's for so long.

 

And I think we're all glad your finally admitted just how important Tesla is to the world. 

Note the others are not putting out Beta units and letting the people do the development work. 

Tesla is no more important than any other new energy break through. 

The problem is people are putting all their chips on Tesla and if they go south in failure they could damage the entire EV moment. As of now they have helped but they are far from being out of the woods yet. The simple matter of making money is something that at some point the investors will demand. Oh and what I mean is a profit on products not carbon credits or income from government funding. 

I am not a Musk fan but I do not want to see Tesla fail as it will hurt all the EV makers in image with the public. 

This autonomous feature is just not ready for prime time. I think it is a mistake for makers to remove so much of the driver they become even more distracted while they still need to remain engaged as to what is going on if they are holding the wheel or not. 

God knows my braking system in my car gets enough false signals as it is. I had to shut it off as it was a total pain in the Ass. It really hates cars on side road joining the main road on a curve. It see's the car and then reacts to it though it is not even in my path of travel. I guess it is better it to work than not work like the Tesla but tell that to the guy behind me that got brakes checked. 

In Tesla's case, EXTREMELY imperfect.

More like idiot driver not following simply instructions that are clearly laid out on the screen in a Tesla. For example, keep your hands on the wheel and stop watching movies while in the drivers seat (which what he was doing btw). While the death sucks, it is a reminder to read the damn manual and always pay attention to the road. No exceptions. 

 

Well, why would it matter which car it is?

 

All of the American brands are working on autonomous driving. Mercedes has similar tech in the E-Class.... Everyone, everyone is doing this stuff. And there's been times electronics have malfunction...and it WAS the car itself, not the driver. Such as say Toyota's ETCU's for so long.

 

And I think we're all glad your finally admitted just how important Tesla is to the world. 

 

Note the others are not putting out Beta units and letting the people do the development work. 

 

Tesla is no more important than any other new energy break through. 

The problem is people are putting all their chips on Tesla and if they go south in failure they could damage the entire EV moment. As of now they have helped but they are far from being out of the woods yet. The simple matter of making money is something that at some point the investors will demand. Oh and what I mean is a profit on products not carbon credits or income from government funding. 

I am not a Musk fan but I do not want to see Tesla fail as it will hurt all the EV makers in image with the public. 

 

This autonomous feature is just not ready for prime time. I think it is a mistake for makers to remove so much of the driver they become even more distracted while they still need to remain engaged as to what is going on if they are holding the wheel or not. 

 

God knows my braking system in my car gets enough false signals as it is. I had to shut it off as it was a total pain in the Ass. It really hates cars on side road joining the main road on a curve. It see's the car and then reacts to it though it is not even in my path of travel. I guess it is better it to work than not work like the Tesla but tell that to the guy behind me that got brakes checked. 

 

Really? So you think when the others get that tech out there (and it's coming real soon btw), that their tech will have NO issues and NO problems the will lead to that very same problem? Do you not think that it will not also be considered "beta"?

If so, then I have a bridge to sell you.

In fairness, 124 people died because GM can't build an ignition switch properly. 

Good thing it's Tesla that is on the forefront of automated driving. If it were GM, we'd all be dead. 

Hah. I sneer at some so called domestic brand lovers yet they whine about poor little Tesla. Oh heavens what must we do. 

And aren't all auto companies in a RUSH, NO MAD FRENZY...NO on AN AUTOMOTIVE JIHAD to CONVERT their employees to their brand...especially for highly advanced auto tech.

Tesla is MORE American than GM or Ford. Every car they make, is built in this country. And they're going for full vertical integration. Batteries for the WORLD. Made in Nevada.  Already at 75% domestic content, and once the gigafactory is fully online are made here, it'll be even higher.

HyperV6 do not ever again question the strength of any FULLY AMERICAN AUTO. 

And I don't even like their cars to know that is true. I don't like that right now they only make two models. I think they made a grave mistake with the delay of the X.

BUT $h! THEY DON'T TURN A PROFIT JUST YET, BUT THEY DON'T MAKE THE EXCUSE OF SHIPPING JOBS OVERSEAS TO CLAIM THAT WILL MAKE THEM COMPETITIVE.

They WILL not sell a Chinese Tesla in America, but they will build Teslas in China for china. If they do, well, they can't be any worse than GM or Ford can THEY? 

In fairness, 124 people died because GM can't build an ignition switch properly. 

 

Goo thing it's Tesla that is on the forefront of automated driving. If it were GM, we'd all be dead. 

I like the way you're thinking...

Imagine if GM cheapens out on a sensor for a couple of cents on their version of the autonomous driving Bolt like they did with the Cobalt/Pontiac G5/HHR debacle?

At least in Tesla's case, one could still chalk it up to human error as the idiot was watching a movie or playing video games  rather than being attentive like the fine print says that one should do when engaging in autonomous driving mode...

Listen, this has nothing to do with Tesla...it has everything to do with EVERY STUPID CAR MAKER AND SILICON VALLEY A-HOLES that think that they could save us from ourselves...

VOLVO

Mercedes-Benz

Google

Tesla

General Motors

and many more...

Tesla happens to have the first death because Tesla is the first to put to market this shyte....

which is not true because Volvo and I think Mercedes Lories have this shyte on their 18 wheelers....difference is truckers are attentive because they got cameras in their rigs filming their every move!!!

When Volvo and Mercedes-Benz and GM and Google that has partnered up with FCA (I thing they have partnered up with FCA to program this shyte as they dont engineer and produce vehicles) will have their share of technology malfunction in their passenger vehicles and knock on wood.....not too many idiot people will die from this shyte!!!

Darwinism or not...it is still a bloody shame for such carnage.

Yup, we already have a former GM employee go on record saying that the most times GM makes a mistake is that they're just CHEAP.

When Tesla has a fault, it's because they're rookies.

Well how about this mofo's....

WHEN IT COMES TO AUTONOMOUS TECH, EVERY CAR COMPANY IS A ROOKIE.

AND GM HAS A HISTORY OF CHEAPENING OUT.

TESLA DOES NOT CHEAP OUT. WHEN THEY MAKE A MISTAKE, THEY USUALLY HAVE A VERY LENIENT WARRANTY.

THAT MIGHT CHANGE WITH MODEL 3, BUT THEN THEY WOULD BE NO WORSE THAN GM OR FORD OR CHRYSLER. YEA. AMERICAN AUTOS. ALL ONE THE SAME.

HAPPY AMERICA DAY WEEKEND!!! 

Bah....Americans...

YUP! ITS A TESLA!!!

Hah. I sneer at some so called domestic brand lovers yet they whine about poor little Tesla. Oh heavens what must we do. 

 

And aren't all auto companies in a RUSH, NO MAD FRENZY...NO on AN AUTOMOTIVE JIHAD to CONVERT their employees to their brand...especially for highly advanced auto tech.

 

Tesla is MORE American than GM or Ford. Every car they make, is built in this country. And they're going for full vertical integration. Batteries for the WORLD. Made in Nevada.  Already at 75% domestic content, and once the gigafactory is fully online are made here, it'll be even higher.

 

HyperV6 do not ever again question the strength of any FULLY AMERICAN AUTO. 

 

And I don't even like their cars to know that is true. I don't like that right now they only make two models. I think they made a grave mistake with the delay of the X.

 

BUT $h! THEY DON'T TURN A PROFIT JUST YET, BUT THEY DON'T MAKE THE EXCUSE OF SHIPPING JOBS OVERSEAS TO CLAIM THAT WILL MAKE THEM COMPETITIVE.

 

They WILL not sell a Chinese Tesla in America, but they will build Teslas in China for china. If they do, well, they can't be any worse than GM or Ford can THEY? 

Stop distracting by waving the flag here. This is only about technology that is far from ready from prime time. 

First the systems are not infallible and can only read what is programmed and there are many more variables involved here. 

Second the Humans are not responsible enough to be trusted with it as they are easily distracted just as your post proves. 

God how do you even stay on the road.  I expect you to spew out Squirrel mid sentence with the lack of focus here bud.

You want to get into the political end of this then start a thread on it. Then we can discuss American and global economic survival in real terms now want to be terms.  I as much as anyone would love everything made here and I would like to flap my arms and fly to but those things are out of my control and conditions prevent it from happening at this time.  

Note if the 3 is built in China odds are great it will be imported here at some point if Elon plans to sell as many cars as he claims. The Fremont plant has it's limitations. But his first issues is to sell more cars first. 

Only completely stupid and naive people believe that this crash happened because the car didn't do it's job.

I don't like this technology, yet petty GM and Ford ARE YEARS behind Tesla, Mercedes and Volvo.

That is what it is.

Only completely stupid and naive people believe that this crash happened because the car didn't do it's job.

 

 

I don't like this technology, yet petty GM and Ford ARE YEARS behind Tesla, Mercedes and Volvo.

 

That is what it is.

Actually they all have about the same level of development but the technology is really not ready for prime time. 

The fact is the rest are using this technology for assist and not complete control as they know people are not disciplined to remain engaged to use it. 

They understand that the less involved a driver is in the act of driving the more than likely chance they will become even more distracted. 

Tesla took a major risk in putting this into the hands of owners that can do more damage than good to their rep. You can push technology a little too far before its time. 

This accident happened because the driver relied too much on the technology and became distracted and the technology in the car is still not to the point it can account for every action that can happen. the combination of both can result in catastrophic failure as shown with headless Hal here. 

This is like the fact we can have flying cars now but that does not mean it is a good idea nor that we want everyone flying. 

We have gotten to a point where humans and technology are not always a good fit due to discipline, expectations and the ability to sense or program all variables. 

The bottom line is if you have to put a disclaimer on the dash before you use a system it may not be a good idea to give it to just anyone in the public domain. 

Why so emotional? You think shouting and labeling people will make you more right?  Sorry it does not work that way. 

Yup, we already have a former GM employee go on record saying that the most times GM makes a mistake is that they're just CHEAP.

 

When Tesla has a fault, it's because they're rookies.

 

Well how about this mofo's....

 

WHEN IT COMES TO AUTONOMOUS TECH, EVERY CAR COMPANY IS A ROOKIE.

 

AND GM HAS A HISTORY OF CHEAPENING OUT.

 

TESLA DOES NOT CHEAP OUT. WHEN THEY MAKE A MISTAKE, THEY USUALLY HAVE A VERY LENIENT WARRANTY.

 

THAT MIGHT CHANGE WITH MODEL 3, BUT THEN THEY WOULD BE NO WORSE THAN GM OR FORD OR CHRYSLER. YEA. AMERICAN AUTOS. ALL ONE THE SAME.

 

HAPPY AMERICA DAY WEEKEND!!! 

 

Bah....Americans...

Well it is a lot different when you sell a car for $19,000 and $126,000. 

You have much more room to work with when you are in six figures vs. trying to get a car that cost less than $20K and then sell enough of them to make a profit. 

The fact is anyone who has made a low cost car for high volume has cheaped out as that is about the only way you can build a car in this class with so little margin to work with. 

You will see the same if Elon ever makes a cheap affordable car. And no the 3 is not it as you will be paying around $50K-60K by the time you get the options you want. 

As for warranties when you only have built 50K cars most of all were sold in six figures you can warranty just about anything. In fact you should at that price point. There is no hero work there. Hell at work we warranty out  all the expensive stuff as the margins permit it. 

Come back when Elon sells a $15K to 20K car and tell me the same story then! Or should I say if he ever makes a car in this segment. 

Right so when GM and other's introduce this tech, suddenly they'll be infallible?

What a bunch of nonsense.

No one said this technology is the new meta, you can delude yourself as much as you want, this crash is not Tesla's fault.

Come back when you have an argument. Whining over a bunch of nothing.

I want to be the autonomous one.  Not my personal transporter.

BUT, Tesla and everyone else needs to study psychology.  NO ONE READS THE MANUAL.  PEOPLE ARE DUMB.  EVEN SMART ONES.

It is fanboi-ism gone to fatal lemfs in the case of this crash.  Another in a long-ass list of reasons Elon and his company need to show some humility.

All he's ever done is blame the customer.  NAME ONE BAD THING SURROUNDING TESLA THAT HE HAS NOT BLAMED ON THE CUSTOMER.

So when some idiot uses the Snapchat in their vehicle while driving and gets killed or injures others, is that not distracted driving?

And also...HYPER....to SUGGEST A 19K GM vehicle will be the first to get SuperCruise.      

We all remember when the GM ignition switch trials were going on, you had so many eloquent, passionate and politcal statements on how GM was also getting screwed over, and that boneheads should've not put too much weight on their keys, or they were distracted, which in some way caused the switch to turn over...or that not wearing seatbelts, which compounded the injuries.

I think those are actually good points... I agree, there are instances where the customer is blowing up the risks in a bad way, or a ravenous hound looking for a payout from manufacturer.

Double standards...much?

SMH. Corroborating witness and material evidence to back up the claim the driver was impaired. Being impaired can be many things. Texting while driving, drinking while driving, or stupidly distracted oneself while forgetting that Tesla has made no claim that autopilot can work without any input from the driver.

Hah. I sneer at some so called domestic brand lovers yet they whine about poor little Tesla. Oh heavens what must we do. 

 

And aren't all auto companies in a RUSH, NO MAD FRENZY...NO on AN AUTOMOTIVE JIHAD to CONVERT their employees to their brand...especially for highly advanced auto tech.

 

Tesla is MORE American than GM or Ford. Every car they make, is built in this country. And they're going for full vertical integration. Batteries for the WORLD. Made in Nevada.  Already at 75% domestic content, and once the gigafactory is fully online are made here, it'll be even higher.

 

HyperV6 do not ever again question the strength of any FULLY AMERICAN AUTO. 

 

And I don't even like their cars to know that is true. I don't like that right now they only make two models. I think they made a grave mistake with the delay of the X.

 

BUT $h! THEY DON'T TURN A PROFIT JUST YET, BUT THEY DON'T MAKE THE EXCUSE OF SHIPPING JOBS OVERSEAS TO CLAIM THAT WILL MAKE THEM COMPETITIVE.

 

They WILL not sell a Chinese Tesla in America, but they will build Teslas in China for china. If they do, well, they can't be any worse than GM or Ford can THEY? 

I am pretty sure the Battery cells are imported from Panasonic the partner in this battery plant, so assembly is American but Lion cells are Japan made or might come from the China assembly plant that is co-run by Panasonic and their China partner.

Global economy.

DFELT, 75% is 75%. And I had to choose and be the country that provides the raw materials or basic foodstuffs or minor WIP assemblies OR be the country that does the finished manufacturing and does the value added, I'd rather be the latter and accept what the Tesla gigafactory will be.

It's not like the BOLT...that gets the entire thing from Korea...

Global Economy....yup.

But that's besides the point. Tesla is an American Auto, and it is fully American. The only one too. And it's important to remember, that now there may be a big 3 once more, and Chrysler being looted and pillaged by Fiat isn't the last among them.

So when some idiot uses the Snapchat in their vehicle while driving and gets killed or injures others, is that not distracted driving?

 

And also...HYPER....to SUGGEST A 19K GM vehicle will be the first to get SuperCruise.      

 

We all remember when the GM ignition switch trials were going on, you had so many eloquent, passionate and politcal statements on how GM was also getting screwed over, and that boneheads should've not put too much weight on their keys, or they were distracted, which in some way caused the switch to turn over...or that not wearing seatbelts, which compounded the injuries.

 

I think those are actually good points... I agree, there are instances where the customer is blowing up the risks in a bad way, or a ravenous hound looking for a payout from manufacturer.

 

Double standards...much?

 

SMH. Corroborating witness and material evidence to back up the claim the driver was impaired. Being impaired can be many things. Texting while driving, drinking while driving, or stupidly distracted oneself while forgetting that Tesla has made no claim that autopilot can work without any input from the driver.

Where did I say super cruise in a $19K car? I made no claim in any way as you were taking cheap GM parts and ignitions. 

If you would take the time to re read my post it was to note your comment on GM going cheap on cars. My point was yes they do in high volume $19K cars as you compare it to Tesla who makes $125K cars. They have a little more margin to work with at that price point. 

My clear point was if Musk were to make a $19K car he would be faced to do the same thing to hold the price down. 

For some one that claims to be a moderator you could use a little moderation of yourself. 

If you want to counter my comments at least read my post correctly. 

I have no issue debating with you and enjoy it. But it becomes difficult to debate when you become misleading. 

I want to be the autonomous one.  Not my personal transporter.

 

BUT, Tesla and everyone else needs to study psychology.  NO ONE READS THE MANUAL.  PEOPLE ARE DUMB.  EVEN SMART ONES.

 

It is fanboi-ism gone to fatal lemfs in the case of this crash.  Another in a long-ass list of reasons Elon and his company need to show some humility.

 

All he's ever done is blame the customer.  NAME ONE BAD THING SURROUNDING TESLA THAT HE HAS NOT BLAMED ON THE CUSTOMER.

Elon has blamed customer and to be fair he may be correct in some cases and in other not so much. 

He also has done a lot of distraction. When bad sales are reported he talks the travel tubes. If the rockets crash he introduces a new program for the Tesla. He is a master of making the public look to his right hand as he takes their wallets with his left hand. He does have a masterful way with PR and how to try to keep a positive spin on about anything. That is one reason he has been as successful as he has been. It is not so much what he has done but how he did it. Most of it is in the presentation. 

The problem is time tends to run out on people like this if they do not show profits. 

The whole three thing was a spin. Why would you show a car 2-3 years out to pre sell it? Because Tesla needed the money. It was expensive to develop the X model and they were down to 2 billion based on reports. Not good if you are also working to finish the 3 and start up production on it too. 

While he fooled many with the 3 pre sale he now has to deliver on time which he has not done to this point. The cheap S model offering is a way to buy time but even that will hold limits as Porsche and others come to market with more EV cars. 

Just look at Toyota and the Prius sales that are tanking right now. People have moved on and at some point many will move on with Elon. He has done a hell of a job to this point but he also has had a lot of things that normally don't go right work. In time they will go wrong and it will be interesting to see if the share holders wait or bolt. 

Right now they should look into disabling the autopilot for now and wait till things are a little better sorted as the customers are just not going to use it properly.  The system will fail the customers at times and you just can't rely on the customers to pull your ass out of the fire every time as a company. 

As it is now I expect most of the automakers will proceed with caution. They will let these systems assist but they will not be fully auto at least till the sensors can be worked out and maybe some driver defaults to make sure they are still holding a wheel or something similar. 

Even with the best flight systems in the world we still have two pilots on every plane. 

The bottom line is the systems are not perfect and the customers are not to be trusted to do the right thing. 

I want to be the autonomous one.  Not my personal transporter.

 

BUT, Tesla and everyone else needs to study psychology.  NO ONE READS THE MANUAL.  PEOPLE ARE DUMB.  EVEN SMART ONES.

 

It is fanboi-ism gone to fatal lemfs in the case of this crash.  Another in a long-ass list of reasons Elon and his company need to show some humility.

 

All he's ever done is blame the customer.  NAME ONE BAD THING SURROUNDING TESLA THAT HE HAS NOT BLAMED ON THE CUSTOMER.

lol they have "black boxes" that PROVE it is the customers' fault! 

Why in the world would you take the blame when you have proof it was the customers' fault?!?! 

Customers try and throw you under the bus for their negligence?  FCK THAT.  They let the world know it was the idiot customers' fault, and not theirs. 

Can you say TORT Reform? I knew you could!

I want to be the autonomous one. Not my personal transporter.

BUT, Tesla and everyone else needs to study psychology. NO ONE READS THE MANUAL. PEOPLE ARE DUMB. EVEN SMART ONES.

It is fanboi-ism gone to fatal lemfs in the case of this crash. Another in a long-ass list of reasons Elon and his company need to show some humility.

All he's ever done is blame the customer. NAME ONE BAD THING SURROUNDING TESLA THAT HE HAS NOT BLAMED ON THE CUSTOMER.

Elon has blamed customer and to be fair he may be correct in some cases and in other not so much.

He also has done a lot of distraction. When bad sales are reported he talks the travel tubes. If the rockets crash he introduces a new program for the Tesla. He is a master of making the public look to his right hand as he takes their wallets with his left hand. He does have a masterful way with PR and how to try to keep a positive spin on about anything. That is one reason he has been as successful as he has been. It is not so much what he has done but how he did it. Most of it is in the presentation.

The problem is time tends to run out on people like this if they do not show profits.

The whole three thing was a spin. Why would you show a car 2-3 years out to pre sell it? Because Tesla needed the money. It was expensive to develop the X model and they were down to 2 billion based on reports. Not good if you are also working to finish the 3 and start up production on it too.

While he fooled many with the 3 pre sale he now has to deliver on time which he has not done to this point. The cheap S model offering is a way to buy time but even that will hold limits as Porsche and others come to market with more EV cars.

Just look at Toyota and the Prius sales that are tanking right now. People have moved on and at some point many will move on with Elon. He has done a hell of a job to this point but he also has had a lot of things that normally don't go right work. In time they will go wrong and it will be interesting to see if the share holders wait or bolt.

Right now they should look into disabling the autopilot for now and wait till things are a little better sorted as the customers are just not going to use it properly. The system will fail the customers at times and you just can't rely on the customers to pull your ass out of the fire every time as a company.

As it is now I expect most of the automakers will proceed with caution. They will let these systems assist but they will not be fully auto at least till the sensors can be worked out and maybe some driver defaults to make sure they are still holding a wheel or something similar.

Even with the best flight systems in the world we still have two pilots on every plane.

The bottom line is the systems are not perfect and the customers are not to be trusted to do the right thing.

Sorry but there is a certain irony to criticizing a man for doing the exact same thing as every other company head out in the last 100 years (referring to the claim of Musks slight of hand tactics).

Suave is right. The critics are fooling themselves if they think that the old guard companies won't have the same problems as Teslas automation systems, regardless of when they actually put it out. Then the same people here, who ragged on Musk, will vehemently defend their favorite brand when they screw it up too (and they will).

Musk leaves out one thing. They are not putting it out there yet for a reason. 

Cadillac has a system they have shown that does anything a Telsa can but they know better than putting it out there yet. 

If anything Musk may have help set the Autopilot programs in the industry back years. That is something as someone who loves to drive will give Elon credit for. 

His issue now is he knew about the death when he sold $2 billion is stock. 

http://fortune.com/2016/07/05/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot-stock-sale/

Elon has gotten some free passes in the past but at some point Wall St may tire of his actions and arrogance. While other companies have done similar things. But they are generally in much stronger positions to deal with it. 

Musk leaves out one thing. They are not putting it out there yet for a reason. 

Cadillac has a system they have shown that does anything a Telsa can but they know better than putting it out there yet. 

 

If anything Musk may have help set the Autopilot programs in the industry back years. That is something as someone who loves to drive will give Elon credit for. 

 

His issue now is he knew about the death when he sold $2 billion is stock. 

 

http://fortune.com/2016/07/05/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot-stock-sale/

 

Elon has gotten some free passes in the past but at some point Wall St may tire of his actions and arrogance. While other companies have done similar things. But they are generally in much stronger positions to deal with it.

Again, I promise you that regardless of when Cadillac actually puts it out, they will have similar problems. Who will it look worse upon when that happens? The upstart company that may have been a little early to the game and is having to take some lumps for it or the more than 100 year old company that waited to put the tech out and still had problems? I can tell you right now which one that will look worse upon.

And while the timing of the stock sell is suspect, maybe you need ask the NHTSA why they waited. Also, given that the stock actually ended up higher kind of contradicts any inside knowledge when there ended up being nothing to gain.

And if we are going to bring up stock manipulation, then maybe there needs to be a new thread about it. I have a lot of reference material involving the subject, most of which involves the auto industry.

And while the timing of the stock sell is suspect, maybe you need ask the NHTSA why they waited. Also, given that the stock actually ended up higher kind of contradicts any inside knowledge when there ended up being nothing to gain.

And if we are going to bring up stock manipulation, then maybe there needs to be a new thread about it. I have a lot of reference material involving the subject, most of which involves the auto industry.

It may warrant a thread if it becomes a story. Too soon to tell. 

Just with the money Tesla has and will need one not even major issue could do them some major harm that most other larger companies can absorb. This is how so many smaller companies fail. Right now they are working from money from one model to another and the late an slow start up of the X was a real problem while they tried to get the 3 done. This is what really lead to the presale and the new stock offering. The path is narrow and the margin for error is small. Tesla is not like VW that can unload a Ducatti and other smaller players to pay for Dieselgate. 

While I am not a Musk fan or Tesla Disciple I do not wan them to fail in any catastrophic way as it could set back all EV products in image and public interest. People are now showing an open mind now but it could close fast with issues. While Elon promotion has helped it also will put them under a microscope when something goes wrong too. It is a two edged sword. 

As for the NHTA they have so many issues right now. Under the Obama Admin they really appear to be managed very oddly. Even when the past Hitler like leader of the branch were there like Claybrook at least you knew where they would stand on things. Now it appears they fit what ever they need to fit for lobbyist. But then again that is pretty much most of the government anymore. 

To be fair...

If this was GM...the media would have been louder than it has been so far than it has with Tesla...

Also....as much cult following Tesla has got, which irks many, which in turn makes for many to hate Tesla....the hatred that people have for GM is not even comparable therefore many many many people would have called for Mary Barra's head...

Lets us be honest...GM's CEOs and engineers would have been severely scrutinized and GM cannot afford this type snafu, ,  while Musk and Tesla are getting off pretty darned easy...

Not that Musk or Tesla should be getting any flack...but like I said, if this was GM....the witch hunting would have been intense...

But..this aint because Tesla's tech failed....

This is still HUMAN error....

Tesla's system is still called SEMI-autonomous driving...

Anybody that wants to say otherwise is on a witch hunting of their own...

It seems like some of us still have some Salem Puritan ways of thinking...

If Sheridan were here, he'd be appalled.

Help me understand your reference, which in turn will help me understand your post.

Who is this Sheridan you speak of?

Sounds like the following is right up this topic threads discussion!

https://www.amazon.it/Witch-Hunt-Essays-Industry-Blithering/dp/0982173377/278-8717530-6250723?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-archive/2010/02/commentary-witch-hunts-and-cost-cuts-affect-all-companies-not-just-toyota.html

Well here is the deal.

It all comes down to Lawyers. Who has more money and more likely to settle. A larger company that builds more cars in a month than Tesla makes in a year. This puts a large target on them for lawyers.

The media likes an underdog and gives them a pass unless they are an conservative. Tesla is their underdog right now in the auto industry to they get a free pass on many things.

Finally while it is the idiot behind the wheel that is ultimately responsible that is not how out government and society acts anymore.

For example. Who held a gun to anyone's head to start smoking? No one but yet they have taken the cigarette companies to task for it. Same for the gun companies as a gun has never killed anyone on it's own but the person behind the trigger has. Yet they try to take gun companies to task legally and by the government intervention.

There are other classic examples where the product is not the primary cause but is blamed for the issues.

As for saying the others will face the same issues is not true yet of even fair to say. They all are learning and Tesla taught them all a good lesson here. People are just not ready for these systems yet. I expect that the legal departments at all the companies are really looking into this right now as well as the government.

So to say the others will face the same things or fail in the same way is not fair to say till they do. I expect this whole deal will change much from what was predicted where we would be short term.

It was a gamble for Tesla and it has not paid off. On the other hand the media has given them a greater margin for error here so they may not pay as big of a price. The lawyers do not have enough cars, victims or money to go after either.

Will we get a full autonomous car. Yes at some point but right now I expect the full extent of the systems may be changed as legally most will balk at the problems and legal issues that will be faced.

No matter how much the human element fails the companies will be the ones that pay the price.

Remember we hold few people at fault today. If you are a drug attic or drunk you have an illness. If you are poor you are a victim, if you have failed in life do to poor choices the system has failed you.

There in lies the problem where no matter what a company does it will be their fault in the end.

Personal accountability is dead in America as long as you can blame something or someone else.

Just watch the campaign and how Hitlery will tell everyone how it is not their fault for their problems and then promise them the moon for a vote.

Off topic.

And it concerns American politics and Im Canadian, so I aint offended by this, but as a Canadian who had a dad fight in WW2 and as of Greek origin who Nazi Germany made a mess out of Greece....and the whole of Europe actually, and all kinds of genocides.....

Referring and alluding to modern, democratic politicians as related to that short man with the mustache irks the hell out of me.

(not to pin this solely on Hyper and the Hitlerary comment, but generally speaking as many do this, even Canadians do this with Steven Harper...some of us Canucks compared his party to the Nazis...)

Hillary has lied.

Many times.

The Clintons have all kinds of fraud allegations connected to their name.

Bill Clinton.

Forgetting his intern relationship that he had no sexual relations, which is on him, his marriage and his commitment to Hillary and the knot they both tied that defines his relationship with his better half and God...because God was a witness to that bond in matrimony...at least that romp was consensual..therefore who a I to judge him?

HOWEVER....how many other "non-sexual" relationships were of the free will of his victims?

Not for me to judge, but there are stories out there...and often is the case, where there is smoke, there is fire.

But...with all that going on with the Clintons, and as it turns out, Steven Harper, or Angela Merkel with the Brexit debacle...I serious doubt that all of them combined have come close to the evil that is Hitler!

So Id like to say, in general....

Please, let us refrain with the Nazi comparisons...if it aint about ISIS or Hussein or Stalin or some other real evil entity...

Off topic.

And it concerns American politics and Im Canadian, so I aint offended by this, but as a Canadian who had a dad fight in WW2 and as of Greek origin who Nazi Germany made a mess out of Greece....and the whole of Europe actually, and all kinds of genocides.....

 

Referring and alluding to modern, democratic politicians as related to that short man with the mustache irks the hell out of me.

(not to pin this solely on Hyper and the Hitlerary comment, but generally speaking as many do this, even Canadians do this with Steven Harper...some of us Canucks compared his party to the Nazis...)

 

Hillary has lied.

Many times.

The Clintons have all kinds of fraud allegations connected to their name.

 

Bill Clinton.

Forgetting his intern relationship that he had no sexual relations, which is on him, his marriage and his commitment to Hillary and the knot they both tied that defines his relationship with his better half and God...because God was a witness to that bond in matrimony...at least that romp was consensual..therefore who a I to judge him?

 

HOWEVER....how many other "non-sexual" relationships were of the free will of his victims?

Not for me to judge, but there are stories out there...and often is the case, where there is smoke, there is fire.

 

But...with all that going on with the Clintons, and as it turns out, Steven Harper, or Angela Merkel with the Brexit debacle...I serious doubt that all of them combined have come close to the evil that is Hitler!

 

So Id like to say, in general....

Please, let us refrain with the Nazi comparisons...if it aint about ISIS or Hussein or Stalin or some other real evil entity...

I get where you are coming from. I still have my fathers photos of the death camps and ovens when he was there after the war. He made it clear to me what happened and how terrible it was.

But with that said you also have to consider we use his name as a metaphor for out similar feelings of people doing wrong and what many of us perceive as people that are leading us on a similar path of less freedoms and more misleading of people with many promises and false hope.

Case in point while Gitmo may not be perfect I do wonder what Obama will say and do when one of the people he released goes out had kills hundreds in a blast or attack. It is not a matter of if but when. One is missing in South America now.

While I get your view of levels of wrong and evil. Many others just see wrong as wrong. We do not rate it we do not segregate it. Plus it rhymes with Hillary.

Sorry if I offended but that was never the intent. I am just a little ticked off right now with her getting a free pass from the FBI director. If that was any of us we would have been in jail. Just because you are a Clinton Trump or Sanders you should not get a free pass.

Bills Female issues are one thing and a lack of character that hurts my country indirectly. But Hillary's Email issue is something that hurts my country directly, People may agree or disagree but that is just my take on it.

Well back to the topic.

Not sure if everyone has seen crash #2

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/07/05/southfield-art-gallery-owner-survives-tesla-crash/86712884/