Rumorpile: Cadillac LTS To Debut At New York

I'd be surprised if they aren't competing with the Hyundai Equus, Lexus LS460 and the 6 cylinder A8.    More in that $70k range of 2nd tier big luxury sedans.  Even the 7-series is an ambitious target, and none of these cars are giving the S-class much competition right now.  If they parts bin the engines and interior of the LTS and price it over $80k they are going to get ELR like sales volume. Even the A8 only sells about 400-500 cars a month, and it is an established car from a growing brand.

Cadillac didn't "parts bin" either interior of the ATS/CTS, so there's zero reason to even mention such here.

Cadillac doen't care how many of these sedans it sells; Cadillac is not in the crushing volume game that MB is. 250 units/mnth is a fine target, if a target is even made public (I wouldn't approve making public mention of one). Would keep the car very exclusive, instead of seeing yourself in the next row at WalMart in the 7 / S.

It could cost over $1 billion to develop a new model on a new platform.  Some car companies spend more.    But lets suppose GM spends $1 billion on the Omega/LTS.  If they sell 300 per month at a profit of $10,000 per car (over a 10% margin which is better than what Audi or Mercedes operate at) Cadillac over a 6 year life cycle would make $216 Million in profit, against the cost of $1 billion, a loss of $784 million.  They can't only sell 300 a month.  Surely though some at GM has "built the business case" which makes you wonder if the budget is more like $500 million, in a hope that if they sell 500 a month they could break even on it. 

But according to your common diatribe, that uber-sedan flagship automatically translates into increased sales of ANY AND ALL other Cadillacs AND GM products via the so-called 'halo effect', thusly lesser models selling at a profit will increase in sales & offset a possible bottom line loss on the Omega/Fleetwood. No one in the Company is looking at it in a vacuum, but as part of the brand catalog.

By your math; audi is taking a huge beating on the A8 too, no? 500/mnth at a lower margin means that model had to have been cancelled years & years ago because it's costing VW hundreds of millions over a 6-yr timespan. Explain.

LTS, REALLY? Come on GM, Time to use the names that truly drive prestige. The Top of the line should be an Eldorado, Fleetwood or De Ville

Even GM Insider News states how much they hate the 3 letter BS.

The Omega platform is not going to be used on just a single car.

But according to your common diatribe, that uber-sedan flagship automatically translates into increased sales of ANY AND ALL other Cadillacs AND GM products via the so-called 'halo effect', thusly lesser models selling at a profit will increase in sales & offset a possible bottom line loss on the Omega/Fleetwood. No one in the Company is looking at it in a vacuum, but as part of the brand catalog.

 

By your math; audi is taking a huge beating on the A8 too, no? 500/mnth at a lower margin means that model had to have been cancelled years & years ago because it's costing VW hundreds of millions over a 6-yr timespan. Explain.

Audi has already sold 1.4 million cars this year, in the United States they have only sold like 120,000 this year, Audi could sell zero cars in the USA and turn a profit.  The American market isn't that important to Audi, but crucial to Cadillac who has little global presence.   Plus the A8 platform is used for Bentley which has crazy markup, so they get to recycle some engineering there.

Halo effect does work, and is needed not only to sell more of your lower end cars, but also to expand globally.    Cadillac needs the Omega car, but if they botch it and it is one and done product it won't have the desired Halo effect.  Whether or not Cadillac can pull off a success here is the question, but I look forward to seeing the debut.

I think Cadillac would expect to move at least 2,000 a month of these.  And I do think it wouldn't be hard, if they keep a version of it accessible price wise, and if the interior is truly ON PAR with a German car.  Also they can distinguish the LTS with a v8.

ATS is botched due to small back seat and bland dash.  CTS is botched a bit due to some funny styling and questionable pricing.  LTS ont he upper end would allow Caddy to move some ATS and CTS pricing down also, get some more volume back there.

 

But according to your common diatribe, that uber-sedan flagship automatically translates into increased sales of ANY AND ALL other Cadillacs AND GM products via the so-called 'halo effect', thusly lesser models selling at a profit will increase in sales & offset a possible bottom line loss on the Omega/Fleetwood. No one in the Company is looking at it in a vacuum, but as part of the brand catalog.

 

By your math; audi is taking a huge beating on the A8 too, no? 500/mnth at a lower margin means that model had to have been cancelled years & years ago because it's costing VW hundreds of millions over a 6-yr timespan. Explain.

Audi has already sold 1.4 million cars this year, in the United States they have only sold like 120,000 this year, Audi could sell zero cars in the USA and turn a profit.  The American market isn't that important to Audi, but crucial to Cadillac who has little global presence.   Plus the A8 platform is used for Bentley which has crazy markup, so they get to recycle some engineering there.

 

Halo effect does work, and is needed not only to sell more of your lower end cars, but also to expand globally.    Cadillac needs the Omega car, but if they botch it and it is one and done product it won't have the desired Halo effect.  Whether or not Cadillac can pull off a success here is the question, but I look forward to seeing the debut.

 

Do you know how Audi is able to make a profit on those cars?  By "parts-binning" from VW.   But I guess it's okay with you when VAG does it.

The Omega platform is not going to be used on just a single car.

That fact wouldn't justify the tirade, would it? Then the tirade would be Cadillac is being diluted.

 

Do you know how Audi is able to make a profit on those cars?  By "parts-binning" from VW.   But I guess it's okay with you when VAG does it.

 

The A8 though has a V8 and a W12, neither of which are found in any of the VW cars, they are found in Bentleys, though modified.  The A8 interior is pretty good too, also not found in a VW.  It does ride on the VW modular platform thing, but the A8 is aluminum unlike other Audi or VW models.  So there is a lot to make the A8 unique, but it is still outsold by the Panamera, 7-series and LS460 most months, and the S-class outsells it like 5 to 1.

I think Cadillac would expect to move at least 2,000 a month of these.  And I do think it wouldn't be hard, if they keep a version of it accessible price wise, and if the interior is truly ON PAR with a German car.  Also they can distinguish the LTS with a v8.

 

ATS is botched due to small back seat and bland dash.  CTS is botched a bit due to some funny styling and questionable pricing.  LTS ont he upper end would allow Caddy to move some ATS and CTS pricing down also, get some more volume back there.

2000 a month?   That is what the ATS and XTS sell per month.  The S-class sells 2,000 per month in the USA.  Keep in mind that Audi, Lexus and BMW all have starting prices in the $70k range to undercut the S-class class and they still manage to sell about 500 each per month, 1,000 on a good month.  Cadillac can't undercut the A8 or 7-series in price, otherwise they'll be with the Hyundai Equus in price, and that is not where they should be.

No way in hell is Cadillac looking for 2000 units/mnth. Nor should they. Like I said, there should be 'no comment' if asked for sales goals.

Cadillac is not interested in playing 'one-up' on sales numbers, nor should they. BMW & MB MUST in order to survive, hence the push into FWD appliances. 

If one subscribes to the theory that halo cars work downmarket to move cheap stuff, the inverse must be true; that cheap stuff will have a 'reverse halo' effect on the high end stuff.

-- -- --

If Cadillac brought out a 4-dr hardtop version of the Ciel & named it "Fleetwood', that would be just about perfect IMO.

Do you know how Audi is able to make a profit on those cars? By "parts-binning" from VW. But I guess it's okay with you when VAG does it.

The A8 though has a V8 and a W12, neither of which are found in any of the VW cars, they are found in Bentleys, though modified. The A8 interior is pretty good too, also not found in a VW. It does ride on the VW modular platform thing, but the A8 is aluminum unlike other Audi or VW models. So there is a lot to make the A8 unique, but it is still outsold by the Panamera, 7-series and LS460 most months, and the S-class outsells it like 5 to 1.

You and your wandering goal posts. Audi doesn't sell 1.4 million A8s, they sell 1.4 million of their entire model line. They make a profit on it by snatching parts off of VWs.

I know they sell 1.4 million cars in the whole line, that is what I said, although this year it looks like they are on pace for 1.6 million.  I also said the A8 is a weak seller, Audi lives on the volume of the cars below the A6 in most parts of the world and the A6 in China sells well.  The A6 was the number 1 selling luxury car in China in 2012, they sold 138,000 of them.  They are now selling about 14,000 A6's per month in China.

The A8 on the other hand is pretty much a non-factor in most parts of the world, China is its best market too with 18,500 sold in 2012.   But in the USA the A8 sells about 5,000 cars a year, and in Europe they are down from 10,700 per year in 2006 to just 5,400 last year (financial crisis I suppose).  I'm sure the A8 has a decent profit margin on it because they do rip parts of other VW products, mainly the A6.

Again, why is A6 coming in LTS topic? SMK, if you do not have anything valuable and substantial to add, do not hijack the thread.

So back to the LTS (which is a horrible name if they really use that) does anyone think it will have a new engine?  My guess is 3.6 twin turbo V6 base and some optional supercharged Corvette engine with 550 hp for a V-sport model.

There's the twin-turbo 4.5 liter that was featured in the El Miraj. 500hp/500lb-ft

There's the twin-turbo 4.5 liter that was featured in the El Miraj. 500hp/500lb-ft

I remember that, but they also gave almost no specifics on that engine, I think it was more a hypothetical engine.  I wonder if they will actually build an all new V8.  Cadillac ought to make a 3.0 liter straight six turbo based on the 2.0T, but that would probably be more suited for an ATS or CTS, it might not be enough for a base engine for the LTS.  Even though a lot of the other guys have a 3 liter six as the best engine in their flagships, I think Cadillac has to go bigger than them.

theoretical how?  The concept runs and drives.

It drives, but they could have put a 3.6 V6 in the concept car.  I haven't seen any pictures with the hood open or where they detail the engine.  Plus what a concept car has isn't what a production car will have.  I think though what they release next April will be near production ready, so time will tell.

LTS, REALLY? Come on GM, Time to use the names that truly drive prestige. The Top of the line should be an Eldorado, Fleetwood or De Ville

 

Even GM Insider News states how much they hate the 3 letter BS.

It's a boring name, sounds like a trim level, like Chevy's LTZ...'Fleetwood Brougham' would be a much better name, IMO.

Yes, it would be ideal for Cadillacs to actually have names again, but there is a reason for this.  Names do not always translate globally.  Think about it: China is a bigger luxury car market than the USA.  A name for a model may not always work in that case.  Moreover, NONE of the luxury marques use names on their models, and have not do so for a long time.

Besides, the old names may not be the best way forward.  What new names would you recommend instead?

Having difficulty getting behind the above theory. No manufacturers change their BRAND name in China, do they?
If a Chinese consumer can handle 'mercedes-Benz' they should be able to handle 'Fleetwood'.

Or in the worst case, just use an alpha-numeric for China alone, and a name everywhere else.

When Lamborghini went to China, their model was dubbed the "Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 SuperVeloce China Limited Edition".

Having difficulty getting behind the above theory. No manufacturers change their BRAND name in China, do they?

If a Chinese consumer can handle 'mercedes-Benz' they should be able to handle 'Fleetwood'.

Or in the worst case, just use an alpha-numeric for China alone, and a name everywhere else.

 

 

When Lamborghini went to China, their model was dubbed the "Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 SuperVeloce China Limited Edition".

WOW, Can you say a mouth full? What marketing moron chose that crazy long name.

Yes, it would be ideal for Cadillacs to actually have names again, but there is a reason for this.  Names do not always translate globally.  Think about it: China is a bigger luxury car market than the USA.  A name for a model may not always work in that case.  Moreover, NONE of the luxury marques use names on their models, and have not do so for a long time.

 

Besides, the old names may not be the best way forward.  What new names would you recommend instead?

Bentley Continental, Flying Spur, Mulsanne

Rolls Royce Phantom, Ghost, Wraith

Aston Martin Vanquish, Rapide

Porsche Boxter, Cayman, Panamera, Macan, Cayenne

Maserati Ghibli, Quattroporte, Granturismo

Land Rover Range Rover, Evoque, Discovery, Defender

Toyota Crown, Harrier (RX in the US)

Nissan Skyline, Fuga, Cima, Skyline Crossover (all sold as Infinity in the US)

Lamborghini Huracán, Aventador, Murciélago

Ferrari Spider, Italia, Berlinetta, LaFerrari

Bugatti Veyron

It's not always about following the Germans in lock step.... I'd argue that Cadillac would be keeping better company by naming their cars.

They should call it Fleetwood and the coupe off this platform Eldorado.  Dump the alphabet soup names, otherwise Escalade should be renamed ETX or something to make it consistent with the 3 letter names.  And that would make no sense.  Names aren't bad, as Drew pointed out a lot of high end cars have names. 

Consistency is for nursery school toddlers who need num-nums @ 10:45AM & nap time precisely at 11.

Adults can handle both naming conventions within the same brand.

LTS, REALLY? Come on GM, Time to use the names that truly drive prestige. The Top of the line should be an Eldorado, Fleetwood or De Ville

 

Even GM Insider News states how much they hate the 3 letter BS.

GMI is the last place on Earth these days that I'd point to as PRO-Cadillac.. or GM for that matter. I think it is a prereq for not being banned to post negative things abou the company as much as possible. 

That being said, I agree with your idea of names.

I like your list, but why not use some of the old names? Do you feel they have to much marketing baggage to do right by the auto?

I like your list, but why not use some of the old names? Do you feel they have to much marketing baggage to do right by the auto?

The only classic names I would consider would be the Series 50-70s if Cadillac want gonna go with modern names. The "Villes" and, "Woods" just sound old and bring up to many thoughts of Grandparents driving them. The Series then number should have been the go to naming scheme back in '03 anyway. It could have had a continuity that made sense. Example

The entry level would have been Series 30 Mid: Series 50 etc. I mean the if the idea was to emulate BMW.. then pulling from their own past would have been not only sufficient, but ironically.. genuinly taking back what was taken from them in the first place. Missed opportunity now. The other way of fixing a lot of this marketing mess would be to go to names. All marketing issues that go along with pricing problems (CTS for instance being the entry level vehicle just 2 years ago, now sporting real mid level pricing) if names were revived negating the inconsistency

I think Fleetwood still holds enough panache for the top of the line Cadillac.  I wish GM had snagged the name Pullman before Mercedes did.

It's like the top Lincoln (if one existed) should be called the Continental.

I think Fleetwood still holds enough panache for the top of the line Cadillac.  I wish GM had snagged the name Pullman before Mercedes did.

 

It's like the top Lincoln (if one existed) should be called the Continental.

I was on the fence with Fleetwood, but the idea is to move forward.. so I think the Concept names I listed fit the bill better. Obviously I could be wrong, but I truly believe that a Sixteen or Ciel would go over better in the transition. 

Cadillac recently copyrighted the names CT5 and CT6 so this might be a moot conversation.. and Ellinghaus may just have a better plan. I hope so. These Cadillacs are simply to GREAT to be ignored for what is continuously mediocre German competition. 

BTW. Drew (Admin) I have been gone from here for a while and my "Rides" have changed. I am unable to edit the sig at this point due to the "22" rule. Can U change it to:

2015 Crystal Red GMC Yukon SLT 4WD 355HP

2014 Blade Silver Corvette Stingray Z51 3LT, 7spd, Tuned to 500HP

2014 Blue Ray Metallic Chevy Impala LTZ 3.6L 305HP

2012 White Diamond Cadillac CTS-V Coupe Auto 556HP

 

That being said, I agree with your idea of names.

This is truly a huge opportunity for Cadillac to TRULY relaunch itself onto the market. Quite frankly they should do a 6 car launch when the Flagship debuts, including the "LTS," Pebble Beach, a surprise BRX and(based off ATS)new SRX to LA, VSeries ATS and CTS Coupe to Detroit , new Escalade Platinum to NY, and a surprise SLX (based off Lambda)to Chicago. In that order

 

Scrap the BS Letters. Screw the European naming scheme. 

 

A renaming convention would only bring critism from the most staunch hater, as most enthusiasts and consumers would rejoice in not having to deal with the idiotic German alphabet soup crap names. Might I suggest:

ELR=Converj

ATS = Solitaire

ATS Based CUV= Agile

CTS= Imaj

CTS based Coupe= Evoq (different in the way the last gen CTS Coupe was from the Sedan)

XTS= Ciel (Fleet FWD, Retail AWD Only and Voltec avail driveline)

LTS= Sixteen

XLR= Cien

SRX-Provoq

SRL(lambda)= Vizon

Escalade

BTW Cadillac and BMW for that matter. A car does not need a different name just because its a coupe, unless it is a variation of the sedan. Why? Because the fact that it has only two doors makes it obvious

 

I agree with several of these suggested names.  I have to wonder why Cadillac needs ELEVEN models, when six or seven will do just fine.

S/M/L/XL in SUVs

S/M/L/XL in Sedans

S/M/M in Coupes/Convertibles...

makes sense to me.

I would go as far as to add a L coupe, based on the LTS, that looks like the El Miraj

 

 

That being said, I agree with your idea of names.

This is truly a huge opportunity for Cadillac to TRULY relaunch itself onto the market. Quite frankly they should do a 6 car launch when the Flagship debuts, including the "LTS," Pebble Beach, a surprise BRX and(based off ATS)new SRX to LA, VSeries ATS and CTS Coupe to Detroit , new Escalade Platinum to NY, and a surprise SLX (based off Lambda)to Chicago. In that order

 

Scrap the BS Letters. Screw the European naming scheme. 

 

A renaming convention would only bring critism from the most staunch hater, as most enthusiasts and consumers would rejoice in not having to deal with the idiotic German alphabet soup crap names. Might I suggest:

ELR=Converj

ATS = Solitaire

ATS Based CUV= Agile

CTS= Imaj

CTS based Coupe= Evoq (different in the way the last gen CTS Coupe was from the Sedan)

XTS= Ciel (Fleet FWD, Retail AWD Only and Voltec avail driveline)

LTS= Sixteen

XLR= Cien

SRX-Provoq

SRL(lambda)= Vizon

Escalade

BTW Cadillac and BMW for that matter. A car does not need a different name just because its a coupe, unless it is a variation of the sedan. Why? Because the fact that it has only two doors makes it obvious

 

 

I agree with several of these suggested names.  I have to wonder why Cadillac needs ELEVEN models, when six or seven will do just fine.

 

Sadly because critics will constantly call Cadillac a failed luxury brand unless it keeps up with the numbers its competitors generate. There is no way in the world that a logical person would suggest that the ATS, selling in SEDAN ONLY, should be selling in numbers that the 3series or C-Class lines are with a Sedan, Coupe, Convertible, Diesel, and Wagons. Its stupid, and even GM is doing it. I heard first hand a Cadillac exec saying that they were disappointed in ATS sales not being at least 70% of 3/4series sales. AS IF THE 3/4 Series is only selling one damn variant. I love Cadillac. I love the ATS. If I wanted an ATS sized Convertible.. hell a Coupe... I'd be S.O.L and on my way over to look at a C-Class Vert or 4series. Why? Because I can't buy an ATS coupe or Convert because they don't make one. 

They need to quit relying on the hierarchy to fill in the holes. Actually insane to say after my Convertible tirade since the only way U can get a convertible at GM is to buy one of two sports cars/coupes. At one time, U could buy a Cruze equivalent (Cavalier) in a Sedan, Wagon, Coupe, Convertible. Hell U could even buy a Spark equivalent (Geo Metro) in a Convertible.

Back on topic. Cadillac needs to get their own budget that allows for a few more CUVs, few more niches. In this regard I wish Cadillac would go the Audi route and act as an almost autonomous marque from the mother GM (or VW). The one positive Cadillac has in this situation is that it's PARTS BIN sharing is coming from a BIN that has some of the best parts in the world. Quite frankly U could take a and unknown, and un-labeled Chevy Corvette, put a "Prancing Horse" on the front and Ferrari would be praised for it's new performance entry. U could take a new Chevy Impala LTZ, un-labeled and unknown.. slap an Acura or even Benz (considering their new foray into FWD) and either company would be praised for their attention to detail. I mean honestly.. the Impala is really just a decontented Cadillac XTS anyway. 

S/M/L/XL in SUVs

S/M/L/XL in Sedans

S/M/M in Coupes/Convertibles...

 

makes sense to me.

 

I would go as far as to add a L coupe, based on the LTS, that looks like the El Miraj

I like how U think. 

STS?

I think for sure the biggest Cadillac sedan should be called Fleetwood, and if they make an Omega coupe that should be Eldorado.  Escalade keeps its name, SRX and whatever 3rd SUV they choose to put in there could use Imaj or Provoke or some modern names.  I actually think the ATS could be renamed CTS, and the CTS renamed STS.  Had they downsized the CTS and kept it their entry level car, then it would still be $35k base price, and what we currently have as the CTS could have been Seville or STS which was always their car priced like an E-class or 5-series.  Instead what used to be the entry level car is now their most expensive car when fully optioned.

The downside to using something like "CTS" is the "S" implies sedan, so making a coupe or convertible with that name doesn't make sense.  Where as there could be a "Seville" sedan, coupe, wagon, etc.

^ That's the convention Cadillac needs to ignore to set itself apart. 

CTS sedan

CTS coupe

CTS convertible

Works for me.

Cadillac, along with Acura and later Lincoln went to these 3 letter names to copy the Germans I suppose, but none of the Germans use 3 letters in their names.  Maybe it was to copy Lexus because they had ES, RX, LS, but then they also put numbers after the name because they wanted copy Mercedes.  Infiniti is doing what Audi did, perhaps that is why Cadillac is copyrighting CT5 and CT6, to have a letter then number like A4, Q50, etc.  I am in favor of Cadillac using names and using some of their heritage.  Cadillac seems to run from their past, rather than embrace it.

Although let's be honest, this car doesn't have a chance against the S-class, I am surprised the 7-series LS460 and A8 are still hanging on, although only by a threat at this point.

...none of the Germans use 3 letters in their names.

Mercedes SLS comes to mind immediately. 

I think we're splitting hairs worrying about 3 letters, 4 letters (remember audi's 5-character alphanumerics : 5000S ?)... the point is 'words' or 'non-words'.

Cadillac has a long history of 'non-word' nameplates, so the current catalog is nothing new. Series 63, Series 452, Series 60 Special ('S60S')...

Cadillac, along with Acura and later Lincoln went to these 3 letter names to copy the Germans I suppose, but none of the Germans use 3 letters in their names.  Maybe it was to copy Lexus because they had ES, RX, LS, but then they also put numbers after the name because they wanted copy Mercedes.  Infiniti is doing what Audi did, perhaps that is why Cadillac is copyrighting CT5 and CT6, to have a letter then number like A4, Q50, etc.  I am in favor of Cadillac using names and using some of their heritage.  Cadillac seems to run from their past, rather than embrace it.

 

 

 

Although let's be honest, this car doesn't have a chance against the S-class, I am surprised the 7-series LS460 and A8 are still hanging on, although only by a threat at this point.

I think you greatly over rate the S class.

Cadillac, along with Acura and later Lincoln went to these 3 letter names to copy the Germans I suppose, but none of the Germans use 3 letters in their names.  Maybe it was to copy Lexus because they had ES, RX, LS, but then they also put numbers after the name because they wanted copy Mercedes.  Infiniti is doing what Audi did, perhaps that is why Cadillac is copyrighting CT5 and CT6, to have a letter then number like A4, Q50, etc.  I am in favor of Cadillac using names and using some of their heritage.  Cadillac seems to run from their past, rather than embrace it.

 

 

 

Although let's be honest, this car doesn't have a chance against the S-class, I am surprised the 7-series LS460 and A8 are still hanging on, although only by a threat at this point.

While I will certainly give the current S-class it's props for being the leader in the class among the other two Germans, the LS460 (which I see more of an XTS VSport competitor despite RWD) and the XJ.. there is no way one can come out the gate and say that the Cadillac group has already failed.. JUST BECAUSE. The CTS out and out is a better car than the 5series and EClass. The ATS is a better car than the 3series and C-Class.. but of course the rules will probably be changed after the LTS debuts so that the autorags can give naysayers their desired verdict. Much like they did when the ATS debuted, stellar, and essentially unbeatable, and suddenly having a larger back seat was thrown in as the metric by which Lux-Sport compacts were judged. Game rigged??? Only because Americans allow their self loathing to always find a way to love something about the competition even when it was a moot point before.

 

Cadillac, along with Acura and later Lincoln went to these 3 letter names to copy the Germans I suppose, but none of the Germans use 3 letters in their names.  Maybe it was to copy Lexus because they had ES, RX, LS, but then they also put numbers after the name because they wanted copy Mercedes.  Infiniti is doing what Audi did, perhaps that is why Cadillac is copyrighting CT5 and CT6, to have a letter then number like A4, Q50, etc.  I am in favor of Cadillac using names and using some of their heritage.  Cadillac seems to run from their past, rather than embrace it.

 

 

 

Although let's be honest, this car doesn't have a chance against the S-class, I am surprised the 7-series LS460 and A8 are still hanging on, although only by a threat at this point.

I think you greatly over rate the S class.

 

Its a great car, but it is NOT the second coming the way some who in many cases never even drove one try to make it. 

Cmicasa, two things:

1. It is not necessarily true that American critics loathe themselves.  It IS TRUE that a LOT of them LOVE the BMW 3 series, and much of their criticisms come from that.

2. The Mercedes S-class outsells all other cars in its class by a margin (in the USA, if not worldwide) of 3 to 1.  Being #1 does have its priviledges.

Cmicasa, two things:

 

1. It is not necessarily true that American critics loathe themselves.  It IS TRUE that a LOT of them LOVE the BMW 3 series, and much of their criticisms come from that.

 

2. The Mercedes S-class outsells all other cars in its class by a margin (in the USA, if not worldwide) of 3 to 1.  Being #1 does have its priviledges.

1) America exists in and of itself...and we are self destructive, allowing false perceptions and antiquated beliefs lead us  killing our entire industrial capacity if it meant saving a foreign one.

2)  The Toyota Camry outsells all other cars in it's class by a margin of 3:1. Being #1 only means that there are more POSs Camrys on the road in my effin way

 

Cmicasa, two things:

 

1. It is not necessarily true that American critics loathe themselves.  It IS TRUE that a LOT of them LOVE the BMW 3 series, and much of their criticisms come from that.

 

2. The Mercedes S-class outsells all other cars in its class by a margin (in the USA, if not worldwide) of 3 to 1.  Being #1 does have its priviledges.

 

 

 

1) America exists in and of itself...and we are self destructive, allowing false perceptions and antiquated beliefs lead us  killing our entire industrial capacity if it meant saving a foreign one.

2)  The Toyota Camry outsells all other cars in it's class by a margin of 3:1. Being #1 only means that there are more POSs Camrys on the road in my effin way

 

Well Stated, Lovely, Truly Lovely! +100

 

 

Cmicasa, two things:

 

1. It is not necessarily true that American critics loathe themselves.  It IS TRUE that a LOT of them LOVE the BMW 3 series, and much of their criticisms come from that.

 

2. The Mercedes S-class outsells all other cars in its class by a margin (in the USA, if not worldwide) of 3 to 1.  Being #1 does have its priviledges.

 

 

 

1) America exists in and of itself...and we are self destructive, allowing false perceptions and antiquated beliefs lead us  killing our entire industrial capacity if it meant saving a foreign one.

2)  The Toyota Camry outsells all other cars in it's class by a margin of 3:1. Being #1 only means that there are more POSs Camrys on the road in my effin way

 

Well Stated, Lovely, Truly Lovely! +100

 

LovelyMoon it is  

For the last few years the complaint about the 3 series is how it got too big, too heavy, and lost it's soul. Along comes a Cadillac in more compact dimensions, lightest in its class, and with all the moves and more that the old lamented 3er had and suddenly the priority is back seat room?!?

For the last few years the complaint about the 3 series is how it got too big, too heavy, and lost it's soul. Along comes a Cadillac in more compact dimensions, lightest in its class, and with all the moves and more that the old lamented 3er had and suddenly the priority is back seat room?!?

Press is like SMK. Keeps its targets moving to favor its favorites.

Back then failure of fuel pump, most expensive yet least optioned vehicle, back sit with no space to place your newborn did not matter as BMW was the handling queen. Then for cost cutting BMW puts electric steering, which it has no clue to fine tune, puts suspensions from the 90s compared to the 21st century magneto shocks, suddenly the sacred cow was to be slaughtered. But better slaughter it with a FWD German to give it a "all-round" balanced vehicle than a vehicle that bettered the very qualities that made a BMW.

Yes, ATS has faults, but sum of its parts is not lesser than a BMW or Audi or Lexus.

Guess now that there is nothing really critical that clearly sets ATS and BMW 3 series apart they have to nit pick and the only thing they could find was back seat because all the 3 series lovers are now fat married and wish they had more room.

Time to go to the CTS but then these folks probably cannot really afford a 5 series and they will still complain due to how much better the CTS is over the 5 series.