The O.C.

Oh, I can't WAIT to give you my "terms" for if you lose......

How would Cadillac be able to out-bling the already blinged-out Enclave? Also, what would you put in the engine bay that could do justice in the face of the Escalade's 403-hp V8? As far as I've heard, the premium V8 that was slated for the Enclave (Super?) has been shelved.....leaving only the DI V6....?

LOL.....actually, I had one of the Berettas with the new interior and it was quite a bit of an upgrade over the original nasty interior in the Beretta/Corsica. The dash plastics, in particular, had a true import feel for the day......much better than the typical GM norm of the day. Mine was a base Beretta, but optioned up.....with the V6 and 5-speed......medium red, gray interior..... It was a great car to drive, looked really good too.......but was an abolute reliability nightmare......

I understand what you are suggesting.......but let's dissect Chevy versus Saturn products in this way....... Take the Malibu/Aura. Many would argue that the new Malibu has just as much "Euro" flair as the Aura.....thanks to it's (better, IMHO) exterior styling, more progressive (and better again IMHO) interior styling, powertrains, and ride-and-handling compromise. Plus, to me, it doesn't seem like Aura uses any materials, seats, features that are in any way different or more "upscale" or more "Euro" that what Malibu offers..... Same can be said of Traverse/Outlook. Nor are there really any differences between Solstice/Sky....(okay I know Solstice is a Pontiac, but you get my point.) The only real argument could be made that the Astra is a step up from a Cobalt in terms of "Euro" flair......but that's the only one I see right now. So when you dig down to the nitty-gritty......one is buying a Saturn over a Chevy for things such as individual stylistic touches or dealership channel......not for any significant differentiation between the two brands. Saturn REALLY offers nothing that Chevy already doesn't.....

Hmmmm......well Suzuki is a tough one because their motorcycle, RV, and marine engine divisions (in the U.S.) are still doing quite well. Time will tell if they shutter the auto division here though..... I think one way or another, Scion will continue to exist. As far as Saturn, for right or for wrong, I could see GM keeping Saturn around alot more than something like Pontiac. Like others have mentioned in here, with more-and-more dealers consolidating BPG, it would be easier to pull the plug on "just" the Pontiac portion of that distribution channel than it would be to do an entire "Oldsmobile" with a division like Saturn that has a country-wide network of independent dealerships with no other franchises attached.........

I'm kinda under the assumption that Saturn would be a far greater asset if they had stuck to their guns relative to Saturn's independence, marketing, product design, and overall culture. I think "rolling" it into the GM corporate umbrella was a mistake. Think where Saturn would be today if GM had kept it's mission true and devoted the dollars to it in order to keep the cars as competitive as they were when they first came out..... When's the last time any of us heard of a "Saturn Reunion?"

I was the (proud) owner of a 1989 Skyhawk.....flip-up lights, 5-speed, 2.0L OHV FI, "T" package with "Shelby" aluminum wheels.......and I did drive the car for 84,000 miles with nary a problem....didn't even replace the clutch in that time. I sold it and got into a brand new '91 Saturn SL1. Even in the Saturn, the level of interior fit-and-finish, materials used, seating comfort, not to mention the superior (if low on power) OHC L4 (I had the base SL1 motor) was a far step ahead of the j-body Skyhawk I had in many areas of design, ergonomics, etc. I didn't have the Saturn long enough to judge long-term reliability......but in that day, even the Saturn was far closer to the (increasingly better) import competition than the Skyhawk ever was.....

+1

Ah ha....but here is where reality differs from what us car industry enthusiasts think......coming from someone working AT a Caddy lot, ES is MAJOR competition for CTS. REGARDLESS of drivetrain. It's priced very similarly....and in fact, just over the last month, we've taken in 3 ESs on trade for CTSs (this is good news)......an '02, an '04, and an '07. Passat isn't even on the register of people looking at CTS. Just my observations over 4 months here at a Caddy store..... Regarding new LaCrosse.....I'll wager money......this car will fill the same slot as the outgoing car.....mid-to-high 20's to mid-30's (MAX).....and will not attract Lexus buyers.....plus, as already mentioned, FWD Lincolns start at around $37K and max out at almost $46K......hell, you have to be in a Super to be that pricey in a Lucerne. I'm not saying it's going to be a bad car....I think the new LaCrosse will be a huge improvement over the current one. It's just that I find it funny all the grandiose ideas everyone has about where in the marketplace this vehicle is going to land......

OK Carbiz....I have to admit....that was an absolute CLASSIC......

......he can't change the culture because his boss is Mr. Rick "I've Never Worked For Any Other Company Than GM" Wagoner...... How can Wagoner have ANY frame of reference for how a company should be run, or what constitutes a dynamic workplace environment? The only company he has EVER worked for is GM.....he's a "lifer" .....and let me tell you, like me, those of you that have worked for GM, moved on, and worked for other companies KNOW that GM harbors one of the, if not THE, most old-school cultures in Corporate America.

OK....this is the second time that you've brought this up in this thread....so I'm going to respond: The Japanese imports of the time were significantly more accomplished than the J- and K-cars of the early eighties.....smooth-revving OHC inline-4s while GM was peddling carburated, OHV 1.8L and 2.0L engines that couldn't pull their own weight.....the later throttle-body injection (and OHC 1.8L brazillian unit) engines didn't do much to improve the situation. Also, not to mention substandard fit-and-finish and ergonomics of the interior, and overall poor quality.....

I just don't think it will be big enough (especially in width) to compete with the Lincoln......and I know it won't be expensive enough either.....hell a Lucerne Super isn't even close to a loaded MKS in price even.....but at least it's close in size.... At least hopefully it won't be a rental queen though....

Sorry. I just don't see a Malibu-based LaCrosse even remotely competing with MKS or ES and GS...... This looks to me to be more of a Camry XLE, (maybe) Avalon, or the Fusion-based Lincoln (I can't keep the f@#king Lincoln names straight......stupid-ass Ford....) competitor. Buick simply isn't in the same league to compete with Lexus or (gasp) even Lincoln. They had the potential.....but squandered it.

Really? The 2nd row of all the Escalades we have are captain's chairs that seem identical to the two front seats......and seem plenty comfortable. I'm going to re-affirm my STRONG opinion that an Escalade Lambda would be a HUGE mistake. Just yesterday, Enterprise parked one of their Enclave rentals on our lot ironically next to an Escalade.....and attractive as it is, in size, the Enclave simply does not have the sheer presence that the Escalade does. For good or for bad, the Escalade's size and imposing nature is what makes it so attractive to a vast majority of our customers that buy them....... (Now.....a Lambda SRX? I'm all over that....)

While that HAS been a huge stumbling block for GM, that has nothing to do with the fact that all those overlapping models were so clearly uncompetitive in the marketplace they were launched.....

You are seriously misguided here Camino.....Cadillac is truly GM's only hope of attracting a premium customer.....Caddy is VITAL to the future success of General Motors. Even Saab can't truly appeal to traditional premium customers like Cadillac can (or will....or is trying....) Today, REGARDLESS of sales volumes, Cadillac is WAY more relevant to General Motors than Pontiac (or Buick, or Saab, or Hummer.)

In one sense you are right.......hence the usual "too many divisions, too many models" dilemma. Cadillac is the brand right now banging up against Lexus....

Yeah he was interesting to follow, but I've never found anyone so hard-headed about their "knowledge" of the industry.......like I still remember the "battle" he and I had when he tried to convince all of us that an Astra doesn't compete with the Mazda3....because the Astra has a 1.8L engine and the Mazda3 has a 2.3L engine....

Hate to say it, but that's most likely a big problem with the car......

At first, I thought that was a WTF moment too......but then I started thinking.....isn't that what an elected policition of the people is supposed to do.....support her constituents' wishes? Maybe she WAS for the bridge originally.....then her constituents basically rallied against it....and so she did what she should have done....withdrew her support based upon the public wishes...??

CTS has moved up a bit in price. A comparably-equipped 3-Series is now less MSRP than CTS (loaded CTSs top $50K now)......and when you factor in our crappy leases, alot less expensive to lease. I think there's plenty of room for an Alpha Cadillac.....say sized around the 3-Series, but priced like a 1-series......

There are what appears to be a whole crap-load of G8s at the local Pontiac store just right up the street from me here in Vegas.....but I have seen exactly one (1) G8 on the road..... It doesn't appear to be selling...... I don't know why......seems to be a competitively-priced car that's been designed quite nicely.....no real known flaws to pick on......hmmmm.....

Well, can't argue with the numbers.....

I kinda like it.....! Compared to the blandness of the Corolla and Camry, this is at least relatively interesting. I like the two-tone (beige/black) interior treatment and, while I'm not totally sure if I like it or not, the matte-finish woodgrain trim at least makes a nice departure from the plasti-wood norm.....