The O.C.

Huh?

He has a G6 GT with the 3.5L V6. BTW....I'm making my point using C&D acceleration numbers.....that's where i'm getting my arguments.... The new 325i with 6-speed manual goes 0-60 in only 6.1secs.....properly driven, THAT would outaccelerate your 240hp Monte Carlo.....automatic 325is are quoted by BMW as being able to go 0-60 in 7.1sec I think.....which would be tough for your Monte to beat....(based upon a lighter Malibu Maxx going 0-60 in 6.9secs in C&D.) Not bashing the Monte.....look at my test drive of a 3.9L in "C&D Drives" and you'll see I was quite complimentary of that 3.9L in the Monte.....just trying to make a discussion interesting with some numbers to kinda support my arguments....

....WAS a great motor.... But it's ability to "take off like nobodies business" is kinda true but actually a bit over-rated.... I've told a stoplight-grandprix-story before when I had my Mazda6 company car (V6, 5-speed) and how I easily outran a late-generation Camaro 3800V6 from a dead stop.....withOUT even dumping my clutch. I took off normally in first gear, he jumped on it....so I did then....and easily pulled past him through the gears and by the time I let off around 80, I had pulled 2-3 car lengths. I think his was an automatic because it didn't appear he was "shifting" a manual transmission....but I know it was a 3800 because it was like the last year "base" Camaro with the "new" flush headlights, etc.... I only mention this because with my "high-revving" DOHC/multi-valve V6, I should have had more of a low-rpm, low-speed deficit compared to the "torquey" pushrod 3800V6 Camaro.... BUT the case is....my car revs so much quicker, I was up into my powerband quickly.....somewhat negating his low-end-torque advantage. AND as speeds increased, my more-high-RPM power seriously took over....where as at 70-80mph he was tapped out (relatively speaking.)

A marketing tool? Sure.... Complex? Definitely.... But have you ever driven one? Seriously? Styling aside...it's a neat little car....a nice driver....smooth, efficient, roomy.... I don't think you can in any way call it "underwhelming" or "over rated." It IS a technological marvel.....

GM will promote the "standard horsepower compared to competitor's 4-cylinders" and also probably promote "competitive fuel economy compared to other V6s..." and all that stuff. But it all gets back to what I keep HARPING on...... A vast majority of the consumers out there now have told you (GM) for years and years that they feel pushrods and 4-speed transmissions in this class of car are old technology, out-of-date, and inferior. That's a perception that exists....no matter how smooth your 4-speed actually shifts, or how reliable your pushrod valvetrain is....or how torquey and punchy the 3.5L actually is. You've GOT to address that by beginning to match and exceed the overwhelmingly dominent perception in the marketplace! GM doesn't have the hardcore PR punch or image in the marketplace to change perceptions that have been THAT strongly hard-wired into consumers' psyche. Yet they continue to go against the grain.....when they HAVE to tools to offer better. Why NOT the base Ecotec powertrain? Hell, why not use the smaller 2.8L HF V6 as the base powertrain if you feel you have to have a "base" V6? Why not engineer the 6-speed tranny to fit the 4cyl Ecotecs? If it's engineered already to mate to the 3.6L, it should be a no-brainer to fit the (almost indentical) 2.8L FF..... People WILL pay a bit more for technology they perceive to be relevent, superior, and up-to-date.

Let me throw another little discussion topic out there...... Where's the supposed drain on our economy due to GM losing more than half of their market share over the last few decades? Considering the cutbacks, the plant closings, the reduction in output due to a fall from over 50% of the market to, where is it now? 23%? 24% I'd seriously like someone to JUSTIFY how they think a GM demise will seriously impact our overall economy? EVOK has shown figures before absolutely to the CONTRARY of that.....but I haven't seen anyone on here provide a justifiable argument to how GM going under will provide me (or others) a "harsh reality?"

You really need to step out of that bubble..... Sure it's nice to think GM has that much impact these days.... But guess what bud....they don't. And they haven't for a LONG time. It's real...and it's the truth. Sorry to BURST your bubble. (that's not to say I don't want GM to be successful....I do....but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.)

Absolutely. Anyone that think the demise of GM will destroy our economy is living their lives in a bubble. AND, the "U.S. auto industry" right now means alot more today than just the "Big Three." The transplants are thriving.....Nissan is about to get a major influx of employees FROM Detroit (at their new home in Nashville) for example.... Yes there will be a disruption in the economy....but it will be extremely localized....similar to when the steel industry went bust. Consumers will never lose their need for automotive transportation....whether it's GM feeding their needs or any of the other multitude of manufacturers. I read a report recently that California, for example, is the leading manufacturing state in the COUNTRY. BUT out of all the manufacturing (in many varied industries) that goes on in this state, only ONE facility (I believe only one) is automotive-related.....(Fremont, CA....NUMMI.) My point is.....there are MANY more varied factors in our economy OTHER than the traditional "domestic" auto manufacturing that will dictate if our economy will "live or die."

I think it's kinda silly..... That small of a difference.....all it does is make it confusing. If they had a bigger difference, say like the Ford Crown Vic 4.6L when equipped with duals.....then I can see giving the two different ratings. However with a difference this small, I say just stay with the smaller of the two ratings for both models and tout the dual exhaust in your literature.....

How's the car selling compared to the DTS? The Cadillac is butt-ugly in my mind and nowhere NEAR as attractive of a design as the Lucerne.....! (I do with the Lucerne had the DTS interior though........and it's Hi-Po NorthStar 291hp version....)

True....true.....true..... But I have to admit that I do kinda like the look of the Eclipse coupe. I do think, believe it or not, that it's a more coherent design than say the 350Z.....(which I'm no big fan of.....)

I don't remember what MDX does 0-60.....and since I didn't remember, I didn't wanna put a bullseye on myself for him for ANY reason......

BINGO....! GREAT post...... About the W-body versus Epsilon.....I've always thought that for two people, a G6 has a more comfortable back seat than a LaCrosse or Impala.....there seems to be way more foot room and comparable, if not better, legroom. As far as GM's lack of moxie and their unwillingness to change....I couldn't agree MORE....

In one sense....can you really blame her? (for the Lexus RX...) What does GM (or Ford or Chrysler for that matter) have at ALL that even remotely compares to the RX.....? Oh....right......the Buick Enclave is COMING..... Where was Enclave (or something similar) 10 years ago???????

Okay.....maybe it's not a volume product....but concerning my above post about GM always bringing stuff out too late.... How do you think Buick would be benefiting from some long-overdue market excitment right now if we saw a Velite (NOT watered-down from the concept) introducted this spring as the new PRODUCTION Riviera Convertible? Or....on another front.....why wasn't the Enclave at the auto shows a PRODUCTION version.....instead of a mildly-disguised concept of a production version that's still NOT going to be here until late this year?

Good point.....but not to ...... That stuff is needed YESTERDAY. As we are seeing with AURA in particular, GM brings out the good stuff 2-4 years too late.... Will an EpsilonII LaCrosse in '09 (3 years down the road) be that much more competitive in the marketplace than the LaCrosse we have today? A Zeta/Statesman is supposedly confirmed......but the new Statesman is out NOW....or will be out shortly.....HOW long will we have to wait for our Buick "Statesman?" I'm no expert....I don't know how to overcome it.....but dammit this $h! has GOT to change and GM has got to get a handle on its product-development so they can bring a 2009 Camaro out in 2006......not in what will most likely be maybe 2010? 2011? (We all know how famous GM product programs are for getting delayed...)

Speaking of Pontiac-versus-Saturn interiors.......just look at the difference in Solstice and SKY. I think the Solstice's interior feels remarkably cheap with all the thin, brittle, hollow, and hard plastics..... However, you look at a SKY.....I'm sure SKY uses the same quality (or lack thereof) materials on the dash, door panels, etc.....BUT Saturn's overall EXECUTION of the interior is far superior with the integrated center stack, radio, and HVAC controls....piano black trim....even the gauge cluster. A GREAT execution (as in SKY's case) can really make up for a certain amount of cost-cutting in materials or trim.

One person's nitpick.....is another person's critical criticism. I see you are new on here......well most of us on here (myself included) want GM to be the world leader in automotive product. There's also many on here that recognize that in today's competitive environment....GM's recent and past mediocrity is what got it into the situation it's in today....and is what's keeping it from overcoming the massive consumer-perception-problem it's facing. SO YES.....when it comes to looking at GM's prospects today, I do "nitpick." I just wish GM's executives, engineers, stylists, designers, and product planners "nitpicked" as much as I did...... And many others on here will tell you how I have definitely given GM props when they've deserved it. I'm a THRILLED 2006 C6 convertible owner....and don't have much on that car that I CAN "nitpick" about....I love the GMT-900s....and would consider a CTS seriously if I was in the market for that segment of car. Other than that.....GM's prospects for me are achingly scarce......

Green or Redline trims aren't going to change the fact that the AURA has an overall conservative design with an interior that is barely competitive in terms of design and fit-and-finish (that center stack....ugh) and a base (re....probably highest-volume) powertrain with pushrods and only 4 speeds.... AURA's nice and what the Malibu SHOULD have been when it was introduced.....but in 2006, greenline, redline, or not,....it is no segment buster, leader, or even challenger....

GM's success or decline will do absolutey NOTHING to change my standard of living....or my career success..... ....AND I am STILL in the automotive industry at that.....

I see your point.....but I don't think everyone wants all GM vehicles to outhandle a BMW...(I realize you are being somewhat extreme....) In your Lucerne example.....I think that car (the CXL in Edmunds for example) got bashed for its ride-and-handling because, YES, it does float and wallow.....it isn't as tied down or as responsive as it's peers (in this case.....300C, Toyota Avalon, Lexus ES....et al) As far as the Aveo....it's not about the 0-60 times....but they DO bitch that, for an economy car, it's fuel economy is subpar for the overall performance of the car. If it ran like a hot-hatch, you could better support the lower fuel economy....etc... Pushrods? Well, I don't think I need to go THERE.....(if the consumer sees it as inferior, you better not offer it to them.....etc....) I'm not trying to pick apart your examples, just trying to show that the media's criticism of GM is far more focused than I think you are trying to show....you really can't say they are bashing-for-bashing's sake....

There's a big "BUT" here..... Yes....the product has been getting better.....but with VERY few exceptions (C6, GMT-900s) the product, no matter how new, or how better, has been barely competitive.....and in no means segment-busting or segment-leading (AURA, G6, Cobalt, LaCrosse, Impala, STS, Lucerne....et al...) THAT's why they keep getting "kicked down." GM needs to start surpassing expectations (the consumers' and the media's.....) What they are doing now is trying to meet expectations, only to find themselves coming up a bit short...which is not going to help GM overcome their perception-problem in the marketplace....

I like it..... The front is pretty androgenous.....but I love the sweeping side profile and the third side window adds a bit of class to the car that others in the segment don't have. Inside, it seems Hyundai keeps getting better and better at designing attractive interiors. Saturn......referring to your new AURA.....can you PLEASE pay attention to the center stack integration in even this "lowly" Hyundai...?

Not unique actually...... Mazda is introducing the 2.3L turbo, D.I. L4 from the Mazdaspeed6 in the new CX-7 (tuned for about 240-250hp.)

I agree with you......this says "New CR-V" to me WAY more than it says anything about "Acura." I'm not crazy about it in the first place.....I think I'd take a new Mazda CX-7 ten-times over this......