smk4565

Right, they sell high trim levels of existing trucks. But even those are probably like a 10-20% take rate or so compared to how many Ford XLT, or Chevy LS/LT level trucks they sell. And what you don't see is Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus pick ups and I guess Ram's luxury truck would be Alfa Romeo or Maserati. There must not be a market for luxury brand trucks because none of them are doing it.

The chassis for the Nissan Nivera or Navera, however you spell it, was used as the basis of the Mercedes X-class. A lot of the body panels were the same I think, but the X-class had it's own front and rear facia and interior, so similar to Tahoe turned into an Escalade, a lot of shared bones. Although the Mercedes X-class used Mercedes own 4 and 6 cylinder diesel engines and the Mercedes 7G-tronic transmission, not the Nissan powertrains, maybe used Mercedes suspension components, I don't remember. They were on sale in Europe for 2 years maybe and pulled the plug on it. I don't think they sold very many. I did a quick price search, looks like the X-class was $45-85k, but who knows how exchange rates and taxes factor in, cars cost more in Europe, but they were expensive compared to other mid size pickups.

BMW sold the 2002, a cheap car, the Isetta, a really cheap car, scores of 1-series, many fwd 1-series in Europe, the 318i in the USA in the 90s that was dirt cheap. BMW has a wide range of cheap and expensive. The original Mercedes in 1901 was the most power, fastest car in the world, the cars they built in the 1930s were on par with Rolls-Royce and Bentley, the 1963 Mercedes 600 was the most expensive car in the world, double the cost of a Rolls-Royce. They made lots of expensive cars. Daimler paid $37 billion to buy Chrysler and sold it for $7.4 billion. They didn't loot Chrysler of any money, they lost $29.6 billion on that deal. As far as a truck, they do make the G-wagen, they make the Unimog, the best off roader ever, and Daimler is the world's #1 producer of Class 8 trucks. I don't think pick up truck is where Mercedes-Benz wants to be, the Nissan tie in was an experiment to test the waters in Europe without them spending much money, and it was the right move, because a Merceres pick up isn't going to be a popular seller. Much like Cadillac EXT, Lincoln Blackwood, Lincoln Mark LT didn't work, there is no Lexus version of the Tundra, etc. Not a lot of market for a luxury pick up. Mercedes has the higher transaction prices than any of their peers, they also go higher up the price tier than any of their peers. I don't see a Genesis sedan with a base price of $109,000 like the S-class, used G-wagens (2019-2020) are going for an average of $173,000 right now, imagine a used Escalade or Navigator selling for $173k. But as I always say, I like competition, if Genesis or Lexus or Cadillac want to jump into the $200k price range and go against the top Mercedes bring it on. If they want to come to Formula 1 and race against Mercedes then bring it on. Here, 831 hp, 1,033 lb-ft. Where is the Genesis or Lexus rival? The CT5-V Blackwing was GM's best effort, and it is slower than a GT63 on a track, so is the BMW M5 CS and the Panamera Turbo Hybrid, and now the E-performance GT63 is even faster. The fastest 4-door in the world just put the other guys farther back in the dust.

Mercedes isn't going to make a pickup, they dipped their toe in that water and it seems decided that isn't for them. They are a luxury car/SUV company. They are showing 5 EV's in September apparently, for sure EQE, a Maybach SUV, an AMG sedan, and an electric GLB. The 5th might actually be a Smart branded product for China and Europe. AMG GT73 is a plug in hybrid debuting tomorrow, but that isn't an EV. New SL debuts in September, that has a plug-in option I think. And all of that will be on sale in 2022. Electric G-wagen is in the works, to go with the EQ-GLE, EQ-GLS or whatever they call those. Their EV line will probably be bigger than Lucid, Tesla and Rivian combined in 2023, because they have cash, manpower, and factories all over the world. I don't get why Ford would invest in a competitor that is taking away F150 sales. Unless Ford is planning to invest at a low price, what for the stock to pop, then dump the stock for a quick profit, and nothing wrong with doing that. But Rivian's market cap is more than Ford's, so Ford can't take them over, if anything it would be Rivian leading the takeover of Ford or a dreaded "merger of equals" where Rivian and Ford merge in a 50-50 deal, and then Rivian gets half of Ford's assets. I don't know, will be interesting to see how that plays out. EDIT: We don't have to wait til tomorrow, it's here, AMG GT63 E-Performance, 831 hp and 1,082 lb-ft.

My question is more if companies like Rivian or Lucid will be around in 10 years. Once the big OEMs flood the market with EV's they will give the consumers more choice, and also they will have economies of scale that will yield lower prices. Even look at Tesla, they have done mild updates over the years to the Model S, rather than come up with all new versions as a big OEM would do with their cars. I suppose they could get enough of a following and live at a high price point and hang around in the way Lotus or Aston Martin have, but every other low volume manufacture like Alfa Romeo or Maserati is part of a big conglomerate, even JLR and Volvo are owned by someone else.

BMW has the iX on sale Spring 2022, not far off from when the Rivian suv comes out. And if the Rivian truck is so great and the best truck ever, is going to outsell the F150? Answer is no. These EV brands are like boutique brands like Aston Martin or Jaguar/Land Rover that just get sold to different companies since they can’t really survive on their own.

The X5, X6 and X7 are all the Rivian price range. The X8 is coming next year, will be more more expensive than a Rivian though. The iX is supposed to start around $85k, more than a Rivian, but not so far off.

Tesla Model S was about 10 years ago is what I meant. Even the roadster went on sale in like 08 or 09 but there was no volume there. And I don't think that, but BMW has an SUV for a single person, a family, someone that wants an EV (once that iX thing is on sale, or maybe i3 is around still), a 3-row, a performance SUV, etc. Rivian has 1 option, if you don't like that one option you go to the next brand.

The Lucid Air might turn out to be a fantastic car, Rivian might build some great trucks. But if I had to bed on Toyota, VW and GM, or Lucid and Rivian, I would bet on the big guys. Because are Lucid and Rivian ever going to make $25-45k vehicles to take on Toyota, Chevy, Honda, Kia, etc? Or are their plan to stay in the luxury segment and compete with Porsche, Mercedes, BMW and Lexus? Because in the luxury segment, brand name and image matters, and if you ask 100 people on the street would you rather have a Mercedes or a Lucid Air, 99 are going to say "what the hell is a Lucid Air?" I think the competition is great, it will push everyone else to make better cars. So I am glad Lucid and Rivian and these other guys are here.

And their pricing is with $7500 tax credit that not everyone even qualifies for. If you try to build a Pure on their site it all of a sudden says starting at $77,400. And I suspect that model is like the $35,000 Tesla Model 3 that never happened. Let's see when they even deliver these things, because I bet they wait until Dream and Grand Tourings are sold out until they move on to anything under $100k. And really this is a mid-size sedan, before I thought it was more full size, but it is about the size of a 5-series. So this is M5 money, I am sure it is good in a straight line, but an M5 CS can run a 2.5 0-60 also, probably whip the on a track, and probably has a much better built interior than the Tesla cast off engineering team at Lucid has come up with. Agreed that they went with popular body styles, 3 row SUV and pick up. Good move there. But in the time it takes them to get to 6 vehicles, VW group or GM could have 20 EV's. So how does Rivian compete with that? Would you rather a Rivian SUV or a Cadillac that has a big dealer network and GM parts support? These are the challenges that Rivian and Lucid will fast. Tesla was early and got ahead in the EV game, but all the big guys have billions upon billions of cash on hand to crank out new models and carpet bomb the market.

Tesla started nearly 10 years ago, since then the Taurus, Impala, Lacrosse, XTS, CT6, MKS, Continental, Kia K900, Cadenza have died, the Avalon dies next year and I think Jag XJ does, Aston Martin Rapide is probably dead, if it isn’t who would even notice. That’s like 10 big sedans that have died. And Lucid picked full size sedan as the starting point??? No growth in that segment. And I know Rivian has 2 models, but look how long it has taken Tesla to get to 4 models, and get the truck and Roadster going. These big car companies can crank out multiple new models per year.

So a pickup with one body style and an SUV that starts at $75,000 beginning January 2022. BMW makes 7 SUVs and has 2 more coming next year. How does Rivian offer consumer choice with 1 SUV when the other guy has 9 of them?

But will Rivian have sedans? Multiple Crossovers? You don’t stay in business on 1 model, look at how much the Toyota Tundra struggles because they basically have 1 body style. And that is okay because Toyota has about 30 other models. All these startups will be small time and maybe not survive because they don’t have factory space or ability to put out a new product every year. I think the goal of Rivian and Lucid is to get acquired by another car company, but I don’t think any car company is interested in buying them.

Yeah I will need to see the Lucid on the streets and see actual performance and range numbers. Also they are like $150k and up, I question how viable a company it is selling 1 model that is a $100k plus sedan when large sedans are dying breed except maybe in Germany and China and I am not sure if Lucid will be in either place.

The Porsche 718 GT4 is about the same performance on a track as a C8 Z51. Car and Driver tested them against each other, the C8 was $86,000 as equipped and the Cayman was $105,000. And the Cayman won the comparison, the Cayman is over 400 lbs lighter, it brakes better and it grips better, gets better gas mileage too, not that people buying those care. The Corvette has more straight line speed, the Porsche has it every where else. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a33825844/2020-chevy-corvette-stingray-z51-vs-2020-porsche-718-cayman-gt4/ And sure the Z06 will be faster, we'll see how it compares to a 911 GT3 or GT2. But the other guys are getting faster too, by the time the ZR1/Zora arrives, there will be a new AMG GT, new Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Tesla Roadster, etc. But to me the Corvette still has a mediocre interior, it it light years away from a Porsche, Mercedes or Audi/Lamborghini. The Corvette is built by union workers.

Because Mercedes and Porsche are luxury brands. Chevrolet is not. And actually the Porsche 718 has very similar track times to a C8 and at similar price.

I think it is a good goal, and as batteries get better the cost will get more attainable. Look at where a Tesla or Nissan Leaf was 8 years ago vs now, big advancements, the range has basically doubled for the same cost. Now they have they range, they just need to half the cost. But I also think OEM's don't care if an entry level car is $40k, because they will just offer 10 year car loans and if they sell fewer cars but make more profit they will be fine with that. Look at right now, most of these car companies have a supply crunch, they are selling fewer cars, but they just charge more money for it.

But if the Corvette is a "super car" why is is slower on a race track than big, heavy sedans from BMW, Mercedes and Porsche? Why is it slower than an M4 for similar money that gives you a (small) backseat and is more practical and has all wheel drive for bad weather? Now on VIR, where GM sort of tunes their cars for that track, the C8 Z51 has a 2:49.0, the AMG GT63 sedan a 2:49.3 and the CT5 Blackwing a 2:49.5, but still, barely beating 2 sedans, albeit very fast sedans. And people here want to say the Corvette is a competitor to AMG GT, Ferrari, Lamborghini, but when the lap times go up and the Corvette is way slower, then people say, well the Corvette costs half as much so of course it doesn't have the performance of the Europeans, or the luxury of the Europeans. If the Corvette brand name is so strong, and they want to compete with the European heavyweights, then why not make the base Corvette say $125,000, the Z06 about $200,000 and the ZR1 $300,000. Go up there and play with the big boys.

0-60 sure, but on a track, when you have to add in handling, braking, grip, aero, top speed, etc the AMG GT 4-door beats the Corvette and so far any Tesla. But bring on the Z06, the Plaid+++ or whatever else, there is a GT73 coming next month, so Mercedes can break their own Nurburgring record for 4 door cars. And the Black Series is way ahead of the C8, it will probably take the Zora to get to where the Black Series is now on a track, and the AMG One is going to beat everything anyway, so I don't know if it even matters.

They had a 4 cylinder SL during the first generation, but the Pagoda SL was I-6, and since the 70s it has been mostly V8s, until the V6 popping up more recently, and of course some V12s. And cylinder count doesn't equal horsepower. I believe both the next-gen SL and the next AMG GT will get the turbo 4 hybrid, and with 640 hp and 730 lb-ft of torque, I am sure it will be faster than a 495 hp, 475 lb-ft Corvette. And they are putting an 805 hp V8 hybrid in the AMG GT and SL. And it is possible that they do a 400 hp turbo 4 with 48V mild hybrid for the base SL, we should find out next month.

So these are supercars then. As they are both faster on a track than a Corvette. As is this ugly BMW

The Porsche 718 has a turbo 4, the Supra has one, Alpine A110 in Europe, there are 4 cylinder sports cars. AMG has a 2.0 liter turbo 4 hybrid coming next year with 643 hp, I'd rather that that 4-cylinder than the 6.2 V8 making 495 hp in the Corvette. Now I know GM won't do it, they'll ride the pushrod V8 to 2030 when the ICE V8 dies.

I would say that getting younger buyers isn't as important to getting buyers with money, or appealing to those with money. Since that is where you can get profit and sell higher end models and tack on lots of options. C8 a supercar? I don't think so, maybe if the ZO6/ZR1 really dial up the performance. Part of being a supercar is also rarity and collectibility, although perhaps that is now the hyper car market and you can call a top end Corvette, a 911, AMG GT, etc super cars. And this list of Nurburgring lap times would suggest the 911 and AMG GT are super cars: You have the 488 Pista there at 7 minutes from 2 years ago, if the Corvette can crack the 7 minute mark then I'd say it is in supercar territory.

The Camaro is either going to die or become a sedan. That leaves the Corvette as the lone coupe at GM, they could do a cheaper version with a turbo 4. Or they just hold out until you have a common EV platform, and the Corvette underpinnings are no different than any sedan or SUV since you can put just about any body style on top. Then it doesn't really matter how many they sell because the economies of scale are built in. But at the end of the day, no coupe will sell well.

But they'll trash the Corvette name if it is an SUV, much like GM has trashed the names: Grand Prix, Grand Am, Cavalier, Cobalt, Impala, LeSabre, Park Avenue, Lucerne, Deville, Seville, DTS, STS, CTS, ATS, SRX, etc. All those cars GM trashed the name so they replaced them with a new named car, only to trash that or wait for the market to just phase it out as with the Buick LaCrosse for example. I could see 50-50 odds on GM taking the Cadillac Lyric dual motor, throwing a Chevy Blazer interior in it and calling it the Corvette SUV and selling it for $90k, and it will weigh like 5400 lbs, do 0-60 in 4.9 seconds just so they can claim "sub 5-seconds 0-60" in their ads. And the Corvette will be come to be know as a slow, mediocre handling SUV (that isn't as good as the German SUVs) and it will just trash any cache that the Corvette name still has. Also to be noted, is the Corvette is most popular among baby boomers, the average buyer age is in the 60s on a Corvette. Not sure this is the crowd that wants to go all in on EVs. Well yes there will be a bunch or performance electric SUVs coming in the next year or 2. But Tesla Model X Plaid is available for order now and does 1/4 mile under 10 seconds. And you can still seat 7 and tow 5,000 lbs with it.