VenSeattle

Oh yeah... sure... I think C&G has already beaten this argument to death... http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...topic=8836&st=0

Not when you eliminate LeSabre's heavy fleet sales. The Lucerne is searching for retail sales, and is not interested in matching the LeSabre's gross sales total. Same goes for the LaCrosse.

1st thing, Lutz did not say that. The LaCrosse targeted lexus in terms of noise levels, fit-n-finish, and materials only. If he did say that, I'd like to reread that press release or blog. 2nd, the LaCrosse is not a "rental queen." That's the Grand Prix and Impala. I would be interested in seeing the LaCrosse's fleet/retail sales mix though.

You left the Lucerne's sister car DTS off. I know it's in a different demographic, but it still helps make the business case for Lucerne due to volume. They are the only products made at Hamtramck.

Well, the "new" Avalon has had a year more of sales than the Lucerne. I've seen several Lucernes on the road up here. As for Fleets, I've yet to hear that the LaCrosse or Lucerne are being whored to fleets like the Century and LeSabre were. Everything out of GM indicates Buick's fleet sales have been heavily reduced while "retail sales" have increased.

Pretty JDP Chart for those who benefit from visual learning...

What happened to "Recalls a time for Toyota to shine" ???? The "Toyota Recall" article plainly states in the opening that Toyota already has an "excellent reputation for customer service." Based on What? If it's so then why do GM recalls count against GM so much by the media? GM's customer service has always ranked very high and apparently still does. It just bugs me that Toyota is praised for their customer service in "Recall" articles, when it's never mentioned as a plus during GM's!?!?

Eh... despite your disclaimers, I think you will be disappointed regardless. I don't believe Lambdas will have the key integrated into the fob, so Lambdas are already damned in your book.

For history... Buick's entry level sedans have always competed with optioned-out or upper-end mainstream vehicles. I guess you forgot the LaCrosse replaced the Century & Regal which were dead center in that list of vehicles. So, it wasn't in defense. It's just fact. Remember, the LaCrosse starts at $22k and goes up to $28k. EVERY ONE OF THOSE vehicles fall into that price range. Also, that list does NOT prove "the mighty (Buick) have fallen." It only shows the competition is getting better. Buick is too. If you don't want a Buick that competes with any of those vehicles, then you'll need to accept a $30k base LaCrosse. As a dealer, you aren't ready to openly abandon all those Century/Regal-level buyers from Buick are you?

Lets do some chops!

Let's get back to discussing the awesome spy pics showing the close-to-concept interior.

I know GM had several setbacks building the new Lansing Delta Township plant. I believe it was originally planned to be built in 2001. The setbacks for this plant is what resulted in the U-Body/CSV minivan refresh.

Nah... 1995 & 1996, the Impala SS was still a version of the B-Body Caprice. Impala didn't replace Lumina until 2000. I don't think 5 cars are too many in GM's volume brand... but oh well. It won't happen... Yeah Northstar, I knew the answer, but it's still a shame. If GM was making $10B a year in profit and didn't have all this bad publicity, we'd have both Chi & Zeta vehicles to choose from. I think Lambda has more potential than GM will take advantage of.

Uhm... The Lucerne doesn't try to compete. It DOES compete. And it's doing VERY well. GM has a V6 that can compete with the Avalon's, so the V8 engine for the Lucerne is a marketing decision. The V8 is actually considered an advantage in the eyes of some buyers (many of Buick's more traditional buyers.) I think you constantly block out or forget that even Toyota's own 2006 Lexus LS430 only had a 278hp V8 engine. So even Toyota can see the benefit of choosing to have 2 more cylinders for certain markets regardless of a more powerful & fuel efficient V6 in its stable... this is something Honda still hasn't figured out.

No, they aren't identical, but the proportions made me think of the New Mercedes-Benz S-Class (Which I now think is absolutely beautiful!)

Yeah... IIRC the MY 2009 W-platform vehicles will be built in 2008. Oshawa closes to be revamped for Zeta at the end of 2008... correct?

Only if the Enclave came stripped and in compact/midsize form. The jokes for the Enclave will end with the exterior at most. The Santa Fe's interior is hideous in comparison. Same corporate radio, dead plates, and ugly steering wheel. As far as corporate radios go, GM's is the best looking and most functional (per independent reviews) IMO.

From the looks of it, it should be called Sunfire, not GTO. MDM, you can do much better... don't rush :AH-HA_wink:

I actually like the "Caprice" name and keep wondering why GM is making this the next Impala. I wish GM would have gone through with "Chi/Lambda derived cars” which would have allowed for a premium FWD Impala full size sedan and the Zeta-based RWD full-size performance Caprice sedan. Same with Buick. Full size FWD luxury Lucerne replacement, and a prestige RWD luxury performance RWD Statesman. Oh well. Large & FWD is apparently a shrinking market and GM had to make the best decision financially. Considering it could have come down to a choice between Zeta & Chi, GM made the right one. I'll be content with either the current Lucerne or the next Gen RWD Lucerne/Statesman as my next car. It's Win/Win for me either way.

Had two friends with Amigos when I was a teen. They both loved them. You can hose out the interior and it's very versatile. Not sure about reliability though.

Could Toyota step in and offer to buy several shuttered GM plants without Union ties carrying over? That would keep Toyota from actually investing in GM and also provide GM a cash infusion.

Thanks! I really got tired of the facial hair. It's funny because a few friends now say I'm "Bellevue cute" LOL The location is on the Oregon/Washington border, but we were a little further up the Columbia. The bridge is called the Sam Hill Memorial Bridge. We drove down there due to my cabin fever after 5 weeks of recovery, and we went to the MaryHill Museum. Learned way more about Romania than I expected. Imagine that one.

Buick isn't Dead.

6 Overrated Cars By Thomas Bey Automotive Correspondent - Every other Friday We couldn't leave “not good enough” alone. We have dared to question the validity of the rank of several cars among their peers. The reputations of the vehicles, we felt, are greater than the actual products. Our views offended a few sensibilities, but we felt the story needed to be told. Think Friends on four wheels. Rides making our overrated list are based on any number of reasons, which means it can be performance or design related, or both. Either way, we'll tell you why. All vehicles listed are 2006 models... Link to article. 1 - BMW 3-Series Our beef: Price and misapplied prestige 2 - Dodge Durango Our beef: So many others do it so much better 3 - Dodge Viper SRT 10 Our beef: It's lost its design edge 4 - Porsche Cayenne Our beef: Tarnishes the brand 5 - Land Rover Range Rover Our beef: The second-mortgage maintenance bills 6 - Toyota Prius Our beef: The mileage is less than advertised

Uhm... go back and reread your own topics: IIHS Crashes Lucerne New IIHS side crash results (I always found it interesting that you posted every vehicle crash pic but the Azera's ) And check this one out also. As you can see the Lucerne was "acceptable" not "marginal" for side-impact results : What's wrong with the G-Platform's Passenger cell strength again? Maybe you were talking about Chrysler's new LX platform. Oh wait... that's RWD. In terms of safety, features, ride, performance, & packaging... the G-platform is still the best FWD platform around.