Vaccine discussion

[oldshurst442]

On 1/14/2022 at 5:09 PM, David said:

Not really, in a country with socialized healthcare where everyone pays into the system, those that refuse vaccination and are putting the biggest burden on the system should pay more.

On 1/14/2022 at 5:18 PM, ccap41 said:

That's a very good point and I hadn't thought about their health care system

I had answered it, but I will also post a link to what @David articulated better than what I said.

Please read it if you are really really interested to know why the "health contribution" aka tax on the unvaccinated is made.   

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/quebecs-doctors-nurses-seeing-ers-090000569.html

 

Dr. Joseph Dahine, an intensive care specialist at Laval's Cité de la Santé hospital, said COVID-19 patients in his hospital can be divided into two general categories.

The first is unvaccinated individuals, many between 30 and 60, who were previously healthy. The other group of patients is older, mostly over 70, with two doses of vaccine, and who often come in with existing health problems.

 

 

Nearly two years into the pandemic, Melanie Jade Boulerice, an ER nurse at a Montreal hospital, said the protocols have improved and so has the understanding of how to care for patients. But she said the workload has taken a toll.

"There's a high level of burnout. There's turnover," she said. Friedman described the "sheer volume of cases" as "overwhelming."

Hidden cost of delaying crucial care

The INSPQ, the province's public health research institute, released a report Thursday that projected hospitalizations had reached their peak or would do so in the coming days.

Still, the strain on the health-care system and the shortage of staff has made for major challenges.

Already, many regions have reached the highest level of alert — meaning surgeries and other crucial forms of medical care have been cancelled.

 

 

 

On 1/14/2022 at 10:01 AM, oldshurst442 said:

In Quebec, the 'unvaccinated' will be taxed, will have to pay a significant amount of money because the unvaccinated are causing these latest hospital turn outs which have put a burden on our  health staff and the medical help that others need that isnt Covid related.  

 

On 1/14/2022 at 10:39 AM, oldshurst442 said:

But...its a LOT more than JUST a vaccine status at stake...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

A new measure has been implemented on TOP of the "heath contribution" aka tax on the vaccinated by the 24rth.

In order to shop non-essential products, one must be vaccinated with 3 shots and to show proof of vaccination. 

On the 13th for alcohol and cannabis stores. On the 24rth the rest of the non-essential businesses. 

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-to-require-three-shots-for-adequate-protection-those-who-got-covid-19-urged-to-get-boosted-sooner-1.5737464

 

 

[G. David Felt]

Next week is supposed to be the peak of Omnicron infections and we will hit our peak of deaths by mid-March.

Omicron is not that mild: 50,000 to 300,000 more US deaths projected by March: COVID-19 updates (msn.com)

US faces wave of omicron deaths in coming weeks, models say | AP News

This does make one wonder when those that think this is all made up will realize their life very well may rely on vaccination to survive.

Interesting to see the countries that have chosen to fine daily the unvaccinated or they can leave the country. Wonder where they would go?

List of Countries With Covid Lockdowns, Fines, Bans for the Unvaccinated - Bloomberg

Sucks to be in Greece if your Unvaccinated, $100 Euros a day if you remain unvaccinated.
This Country Is Fining Some Unvaccinated Residents Over $100 A Month (ibtimes.com)

COVID in Europe: Greece begins fining those over 60 who are unvaccinated | Euronews

Talk about taking away the ability to move around.

French lawmakers ban unvaccinated from public venues with new virus law | Euronews

Unvaccinated over-60s face monthly fine in Greece; UK reports another 84,429 cases and 85 deaths – as it happened | World news | The Guardian

Crazy the daily fine for unvaccinated in Australia, this pretty much could put an Anti-Vaxxer in poverty for life to the government.

From prison threat to health tax: How countries are treating unvaccinated citizens - World News - Mirror Online

 

[Robert Hall]

25 minutes ago, David said:

Next week is supposed to be the peak of Omnicron infections and we will hit our peak of deaths by mid-March.

Omicron is not that mild: 50,000 to 300,000 more US deaths projected by March: COVID-19 updates (msn.com)

US faces wave of omicron deaths in coming weeks, models say | AP News

This does make one wonder when those that think this is all made up will realize their life very well may rely on vaccination to survive.

Interesting to see the countries that have chosen to fine daily the unvaccinated or they can leave the country. Wonder where they would go?

List of Countries With Covid Lockdowns, Fines, Bans for the Unvaccinated - Bloomberg

Sucks to be in Greece if your Unvaccinated, $100 Euros a day if you remain unvaccinated.
This Country Is Fining Some Unvaccinated Residents Over $100 A Month (ibtimes.com)

COVID in Europe: Greece begins fining those over 60 who are unvaccinated | Euronews

Talk about taking away the ability to move around.

French lawmakers ban unvaccinated from public venues with new virus law | Euronews

Unvaccinated over-60s face monthly fine in Greece; UK reports another 84,429 cases and 85 deaths – as it happened | World news | The Guardian

Crazy the daily fine for unvaccinated in Australia, this pretty much could put an Anti-Vaxxer in poverty for life to the government.

From prison threat to health tax: How countries are treating unvaccinated citizens - World News - Mirror Online

 

Those are all good ideas for dealing w/ the unvaccinated.  The US should do something like that also.   This has been going on too long and the useless, selfish anti-vaxxers are just stretching it out..

[ccap41]

Why would one care if the unvaxxed get vaxxed or not?  If one is vaxxed they should be just fine. 

[Robert Hall]

32 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Why would one care if the unvaxxed get vaxxed or not?  If one is vaxxed they should be just fine. 

The unvaccinated continue to spread the disease and fill up hospitals.  They are a threat to public safety.  

[oldshurst442]

15 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Why would one care if the unvaxxed get vaxxed or not? 

The person(s) who has (have) a prior destiny with a hospital visit and needs  life altering and life saving surgery due to other diseases that kill humans other than Covid such as cancer surgeries or triple by-pass surgeries but get canceled due to Covid emergencies because the doctors and nurses and all other health care workers are taking care of Covid patients...     And MOST of THOSE Covid patients right NOW are the ones that are NOT vaccinated... 

That is WHO would care if one is vaccinated or not.  

I dont care if YOU are not vaxxed.   But for shyte's sake...   STOP being SELFISH...   There are others that are living in YOUR society.  YOU are NOT alone.   

Ill repeat,  I do NOT care what YOU do.  But do NOT catch Covid...  Because life for YOU might NOT be the same.  Its a gamble that YOU are willing to take, and THAT is OK.   However, the decision that YOU took WILL affect others around you...    And if YOU cant see that, I cannot help you.   HOWEVER, there are SOME countries that have come to a conclusion that THIS selfish bullshyte needs to stop because health care workers be it doctors OR nurses  are NOT there to get sick or get traumatized or put in a position to choose who gets to live and who gets to die JUST because someone got MISINFORMED about a vaccine...

Ill repeat, I am NOT here to TEACH you about vaccines.

I am NOT here to shame you about being vaxxed or NOT being vaxxed.

I am not here to tell you about nothing other than:

There are COUNTLESS of serious and much needed surgeries being canceled because of Covid.   THESE people need NOT suffer MORE than they have to.  NOBODY forced them into THAT position...  Catch my drift?

Unvaxxed folk are the ones that are putting the healthcare system at risk. Since the beginning....  Obviously because in the beginning, there were NO vaccines. But now that we have vaccines...

Health care workers be it doctors OR nurses  are NOT there to get sick or get traumatized or put in a position to choose who gets to live and who gets to die.  

Did ANYBODY ask if it was FAIR for doctors and nurses and all other healthcare workers to work CRAZY amount of hours SAVING our UNVAXXED asses?    

How about when THESE healthcare workers ahve gotten sick FROM Covid and some of those have died?

Did YOU ask if healthcare workers care if YOU were vaxxed or not? 

Did YOU ask YOURSELF or others that got sick from Covid and were NOT vaxxed if it was FAIR for them to put all those people at risk?   Huh?

So...when you ask a tone deaf question like that...you get a in-your-face response...

But Ill repeat, I do NOT care if YOU are vaxxed or not...

Just do NOT get Covid...  YOUR life might NOT be the same as it was before Covid...   (Gamble with your life?  Its YOUR life...)   And if YOU happen to get sick, so sick that you need tubes going in your lungs...  remember the shyte question YOU just asked and remember THIS post...  And if YOU never get sick because you NEVER caughht Covid...  GREAT!!! 

But remember,  Covid for some was a gamble...but some of those guys...they LOST...    And STILL remember THIS post BECAUSE YOU are NOT alone in society and the selfish decisions you choose does affect people around you...

[Robert Hall]

I think a core problem that we have today in the US are too many people unwilling to do anything for the greater public good, for society.  Too many people hollering about ‘individual freedoms’ and other horseshit.  Too many selfish assholes in this country.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by Robert Hall

[oldshurst442]

Yes...and those people clamming about "individual freedoms" forgot or dont care (more accurately) that their personal freedoms END where the other person's personal rights and freedoms begin...

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

As one who has family that does work in the health care industry. It is a choice for everyone to get vaccinated or not.

Yet the stress and added workload put on these healthcare workers is burning many out. As such, I had a sister in-law who has lost a number of patients that needed alternative surgery but was canceled due to hospitals being at 100% capacity with Covid patients of which the majority, 93% in Washington state are unvaccinated. As such, she has decided to help as much as she can those vaccinated patients before the unvaccinated which I am hearing is becoming more common.

Sadly, this choice has been a clear point made since the 1960's when Star Trek, Spock talked about the good of the many over the good of the one.

Yes later in the series, the crew went after the one to rescue them as that one was very much needed for the many.

Yet in life we all should be thinking about the many, Humanity survival as we will have our own sucess if humanity wins as a group versus an individual.

It would be great for everyone to look at the good of their local society and help out, sadly those that can only look at themselves I feel need to look inside to assess why their personal choice is more important than the wellbeing of society.

This is my own humble opinion, but for society to move forward, we need to let the unvaccinated have their say. Then clearly point out the science one last time and if they still want to believe lies, misdirection, narcissist, then I see no reason why they should go ahead of others that are doing everything they can to survive and not be a burden on society.

 

[G. David Felt]

Another sad loss of life due to ignorance about the virus and vaccination.

Singer Dies After Deliberately Catching COVID-19 So She Could Obtain A Recently-Recovered Pass (msn.com)

[smk4565]

I had Moderna with booster, didn't have any side effects, just a sore arm for a day or so each time.

1 minute ago, David said:

Another sad loss of life due to ignorance about the virus and vaccination.

Singer Dies After Deliberately Catching COVID-19 So She Could Obtain A Recently-Recovered Pass (msn.com)

A moron.  It's expensive to be stupid.

[oldshurst442]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

A moron.  It's expensive to be stupid.

Paid with her life...

I wonder when she was taking her last breaths, did she ever think about how her husband and son felt as they saw her take her last few breaths?  

Sometimes, we dont think about the shyte we put our loved ones through because of our own selfish stupidity.  

I wonder how many times the husband and the son pleaded with her to get vaxxed. How many calm discussions and loud arguments were had since they WERE vaxxed...  

 

 

[G. David Felt]

22 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Paid with her life...

I wonder when she was taking her last breaths, did she ever think about how her husband and son felt as they saw her take her last few breaths?  

Sometimes, we dont think about the shyte we put our loved ones through because of our own selfish stupidity.  

I wonder how many times the husband and the son pleaded with her to get vaxxed. How many calm discussions and loud arguments were had since they WERE vaxxed...  

 

 

Sadly, we have seen way too many news stories of young and old that were very active, fit and in what their families have stated prime of their life killed by this virus and how on their deathbeds they wished they had been vaccinated.

As you have stated many times, I hope @ccap41 DOES NOT get Covid and have to deal with the affects as hearing a person say they cannot breathe and are suffocating is the worst thing ever to experience. I have a coworker who she was very much against the vaccine till her husband, son and eventually she ended up in the hospital last year. They did recover lucky for them and have since been vaccinated and boosted and yet she is now a strong supporter of having everyone get vaccinated. 

Daily she still deals 6 months later with fatigue, shortness of breath going up her stairs at her house and many other side effects of the Virus.

Covid will expose all weaknesses in ones DNA if they are unvaccinated. I hope for the good of Humanity, we can get the rest of humanity vaccinated this year. I fear we will still see millions more die unnecessary due to the lies and deceit spoken by those against this vaccine and technology.

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

The unvaccinated continue to spread the disease and fill up hospitals.  They are a threat to public safety.  

Vaccinated also spread it and plenty still get sick. 

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I am NOT here to shame you about being vaxxed or NOT being vaxxed.

Did you forget your own words? 

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

STOP being SELFISH...   There are others that are living in YOUR society.  YOU are NOT alone.

--------

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Because life for YOU might NOT be the same.  Its a gamble that YOU are willing to take, and THAT is OK. 

It is an EXTREMELY LOW percentage that life will be permanently altered *when* I catch COVID. 

13 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

I think a core problem that we have today in the US are too many people unwilling to do anything for the greater public good, for society.  Too many people hollering about ‘individual freedoms’ and other horse$h!.  Too many selfish assholes in this country.  

Can't disagree with this statement

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Vaccinated also spread it and plenty still get sick. 

Yes, you are right, vaccinated have gotten sick, but for the most part is able to recover and stay at home not taking up Hospital Beds.

I know this as I got a call last night by my son who lives with his Girlfriend and her two kids. Karina helps out her senior parents and as such, while all are vaccinated, she has come down and tested positive for Covid. She is isolated in the bedroom and Alex is sleeping in the great room on an air mattress as she stays away from Alex and the Kids. He takes food to her, and she leaves the dishes outside of the bedroom door. He told us last night that he is sanitizing everything and being very careful. She feels like shit, but overall says it does remind her of the Flu, just more intense.

As has been well documented by the healthcare industry, she should recover just fine, but will take a few months. There is the risk of Alex and the kids catching it too.

The KEY POINT is that except when you have additional medical issues, VACCINATED are able to get over this in the comfort of their home. They do not put a stress on the Hospitals or medical personnel.

I think if we all did not care, we would not be talking about the needs of the many over the one with getting Vaccinated.

The amount of news stories of healthy people, people who felt they were strong, prime and would have no problem dealing with getting over Covid only to have it kill them tends to lean to the importance of using the mRNA Vaccination to prep your body to deal with it when one does get sick.

Based on your statements, I feel there is more to this on your belief as to why you are not getting vaccinated that you could share with us.

FYI, I just got off a work zoom meeting where I was talking with our federal team, and they were sharing with us that the GOV is not even talking with suppliers, support or even possible candidates for internal job roles if they are not vaccinated beforehand. As such, it will be harder as more companies take the same approach of requiring vaccination to work let alone be considered for jobs.

You say your Healthy and should have no problem dealing with recovery when you catch Covid. Yet this also leaves a big unsaid space of what else your concerns are about vaccination.

No Judgement from me and I ask that all other members DO NOT JUDGE.

Let's keep this open as I am truly interested in the points you have as to why you are not willing to get vaccinated.

I will start the bullet list off for you:

• Young and Healthy, see's oneself as strong and capable of dealing with Covid.
• ????????

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Did you forget your own words? 

LOL

You asked a very selfish question. I answered in kind.

My words to you were not of shaming, but of being very direct to you on a very selfish kind of thinking you have.

If you feel shame, that is more on you than it is on my choice of words to you.

I REALLY dont care what YOU choose to do with your own life. Its YOUR gamble.

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

It is an EXTREMELY LOW percentage that life will be permanently altered *when* I catch COVID. 

Extremely low?

LOL

You have NO idea how Covid will affect until you actually DO catch it.

Just dont catch it.  Because it maybe a gamble that you will end up regretting...

The thing is, we arent even talking about that.  

YOU seem to want to justify it to me.  I DO NOT CARE...

YOU asked a question about who would care if one has been vaxxed or not.

I answered you in kind.

And THAT would be people with surgeries that NEED to be taken care of but cant BECAUSE hospitals have been run down with unvaxxed Covid patients...

If YOU feel that these words are shaming you, that that feeling is more on you than it is on my choice of words to you...

 

[ccap41]

26 minutes ago, David said:

VACCINATED are able to get over this in the comfort of their home. They do not put a stress on the Hospitals or medical personnel.

Yes, non-vaccinated have a higher percentage of being hospitalized but look at the numbers for yourself. 

I can't take a screen shot while my curser is on the graph so I'll link the page and let you know the numbers.

Last week graphed, ending Nov 27th for 18-49 year-olds

Unvaccinated hospitalization rate: 20.8 per 100,000 = 0.0208%

Vaccinated hospitalization rate: 0.9 per 100,000 = 0.0009%

Yes, that's a large gap but 0.0208% is still an incredibly small number.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html

I find it very strange that the 18-49 year range is BY FAR the largest age range. It's certainly misleading statistically as there's no reason why that group should cover 31 years while the other categories are less than have that range. 

40 minutes ago, David said:

The amount of news stories of healthy people, people who felt they were strong, prime and would have no problem dealing with getting over Covid only to have it kill them tends to lean to the importance of using the mRNA Vaccination to prep your body to deal with it when one does get sick.

Use real statistics to back this rather than news articles. News articles are 100% to get you to click and watch/listen/read their article. There's no splashing headline with 70 year-old, obese individual passed from COVID. 

42 minutes ago, David said:

Based on your statements, I feel there is more to this on your belief as to why you are not getting vaccinated that you could share with us.

What else would you like to know? I'm open to discussion. 

13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Its YOUR gamble.

And the odds are vastly on my side.

[G. David Felt]

@ccap41 Not gonna search and post since you can do this on the numerous stories of healthy young to old people that felt they could fight the virus when they catch it that have ended up dead.

Lets also put the CDC numbers in proper perspective as they are vastly under reported due to many Southern States, Florid and Texas leading the way that refuse to release the numbers to their own state citizens let alone allow the data of actual covid patients that are in the hospitals and vaccinated versus unvaccinated. The few hospitals that do report are due to them being part of a much larger organization that crosses state lines and as such they report all out of ease and yet it is a small percentage of people.

As they say, one bad experience in anything is usually a small percentage of a larger number and those CDC numbers. Thank you for sharing I still believe as does the CDC as a vastly under reported number.

As per your own link, you can see that we are in a very large increase of infected hospitalization.

Per the data it does show that right now your age group is growing in infections.

Still Scary to consider that so many of these could have been avoided by being vaccinated.

In regard to you being open to discussion, I cannot read your mind as to why you feel playing the odds, gambling with your life is worth it over being vaccinated. Only you can tell us the bullet points of why you will not get vaccinated, the details of why you feel not getting the vaccine against Covid is better than taking the chance that somewhere you will get the virus and might fully recover with no long-term lasting effects.

[ccap41]

3 minutes ago, David said:

As they say, one bad experience in anything is usually a small percentage of a larger number and those CDC numbers. Thank you for sharing I still believe as does the CDC as a vastly under reported number.

So it's just your personal feeling, 100% anecdotal, 0% provable, that the numbers are being skewed by a few states? The numbers could be skewed in the other direction, too. 

 

7 minutes ago, David said:

As per your own link, you can see that we are in a very large increase of infected hospitalization.

Very large increase of a very small number. 

I'm sure we all know dozens of people who've gotten COVID. How many have you known needing to be hospitalized?

[balthazar]

^ Seems according to the above 'prevalent hospitalization' chart, that we're seeing the same peak now as we were 1 year ago, when hardly anyone was masking and NO ONE was vaccinated. Interesting.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

So it's just your personal feeling, 100% anecdotal, 0% provable, that the numbers are being skewed by a few states? The numbers could be skewed in the other direction, too. 

 

Very large increase of a very small number. 

I'm sure we all know dozens of people who've gotten COVID. How many have you known needing to be hospitalized?

0%, as I said, not going to spend my time posting the proof that is out there when you can see it for yourself and are ignoring it.

All I know that have gotten covid, 100% unvaccinated have had to be in the hospital, 0% vaccinated that have gotten it have had to go that I know so far.

That proves to me that vaccinated is the way to go and you have still AVOIDED posting your reasonings and only state your youth. As such, one would have to infer the conservative leanings of lies that you are following rather than the science as you have not responded to that either of what you find wrong with the science that is sound in comparison to the lies and FUD of the unvaccinated.

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, David said:

All I know that have gotten covid, 100% unvaccinated have had to be in the hospital, 0% vaccinated that have gotten it have had to go that I know so far.

I straight up do not believe 100% of the people you know who've gotten it have been hospitalized. 

How many of those 100%(not sure what the actual number is here, that'd be useful information) were older than 60 and were well overweight? 

4 minutes ago, David said:

That proves to me that vaccinated is the way to go and you have still AVOIDED posting your reasonings and only state your youth. As such, one would have to infer the conservative leanings of lies that you are following rather than the science as you have not responded to that either of what you find wrong with the science that is sound in comparison to the lies and FUD of the unvaccinated.

Yes, I have stated more than simply my age. My health routines and fitness regiment are large factors that I've mentioned as well. 

To say I'm not currently vaccinated because of a political affiliation is straight up ignorant on your part. Why in the world would I rely on a political stance to guide my health and well being? There isn't a single politician that gives a flying fck about either of us. All they care is about their dollars and power. 

[G. David Felt]

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I straight up do not believe 100% of the people you know who've gotten it have been hospitalized. 

How many of those 100%(not sure what the actual number is here, that'd be useful information) were older than 60 and were well overweight? 

Yes, I have stated more than simply my age. My health routines and fitness regiment are large factors that I've mentioned as well. 

To say I'm not currently vaccinated because of a political affiliation is straight up ignorant on your part. Why in the world would I rely on a political stance to guide my health and well being? There isn't a single politician that gives a flying fck about either of us. All they care is about their dollars and power. 

So far of all my coworkers in Boston that have had Covid have had to be hospitalized and were unvaccinated and that is 9 people that I know of and work with. The only other person is my son's girlfriend who is vaccinated and is at home.

To me that is 100% unvaccinated hospitalized based on my knowing them to vaccinated not being hospitalized. Still a big difference.

As far as health and fitness routine, that has been it with plenty of medical advice from the CDC to medical hospitals and universities that have stated vaccinated is a much safer course over unvaccinated. 

Yes, I make an assumption based on your location of STL and the rate of vaccinated to unvaccinated in comparison to other places that have a much higher vaccination rate. It is not hard to understand that politics have played a role in how one see's vaccination versus unvaccinated.

This has also proven out in the comparison of college educated to high school educated only for who is vaccinated to unvaccinated. There seems to be a play on fears about this vaccination and you again avoided the expanded question by going back to only health and fitness. It is hard to not look at how one leans politically when you see our two major parties with one embracing science and medical advice and the other embracing radical conspiracy theories.

Fine, I will consider you an Independent which is what I consider myself. I agree, let's not make this political.

What is it about the Science, the mRNA technology that you feel not using it to boost your body's ability to fight this Virus?

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, David said:

So far of all my coworkers in Boston that have had Covid have had to be hospitalized and were unvaccinated and that is 9 people that I know of and work with. The only other person is my son's girlfriend who is vaccinated and is at home.

To me that is 100% unvaccinated hospitalized based on my knowing them to vaccinated not being hospitalized. Still a big difference.

You don't know a single person locally who's contracted COVID? The ONLY people you know who've contracted COVID have been coworkers in Boston and your son's girlfriend? 

 

4 minutes ago, David said:

Yes, I make an assumption based on your location of STL

You do know STL is a democratic city, right? 

5 minutes ago, David said:

What is it about the Science, the mRNA technology that you feel not using it to boost your body's ability to fight this Virus?

There is nothing in the science that's stopping me. It's just the fact that it isn't a game-ender. The vaccinations we all got when we were little 100% prevented the spread and illnesses to be contracted. None of the COVID vaccines do this. If any of the current vaccines 100% stopped the spread once contracted (okay, it wouldn't exactly need to be 100%, but an extremely high number) I would have gotten it a year ago. It doesn't stop the spread and only minimizes the symptoms. 

[G. David Felt]

16 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You don't know a single person locally who's contracted COVID? The ONLY people you know who've contracted COVID have been coworkers in Boston and your son's girlfriend? 

 

You do know STL is a democratic city, right? 

There is nothing in the science that's stopping me. It's just the fact that it isn't a game-ender. The vaccinations we all got when we were little 100% prevented the spread and illnesses to be contracted. None of the COVID vaccines do this. If any of the current vaccines 100% stopped the spread once contracted (okay, it wouldn't exactly need to be 100%, but an extremely high number) I would have gotten it a year ago. It doesn't stop the spread and only minimizes the symptoms. 

Yes, only coworkers and my son's girlfriend as I do not know of anyone else though plenty have been reported due to the Washington monitoring app for infected folks around me. My wife and I take this very seriously and so our bubble of people we see is very small. Our kids and a couple next door who also sees no one else but us. We shop once a week and enjoy our home and yard, not spending time with anyone else.

Yes, STL is a democratic city in the south.

Yet with Vaccination, we still do have the spread of chicken pox, mumps, measles, etc. among the unvaccinated. Polio has pretty much been eradicated till the un-vax movement grew based on misinformation and now we have pockets of Polio around the world.

As I have stated, 93% of the Covid cases in the Hospitals in just Washington State are due to unvaccinated people. The 7% that is vaccinated is due to additional medical issues.

This proves to me that vaccination is very important, and I do care enough about my fellow humans on this planet that I DO NOT WANT YOU to have to go through what unvaccinated covid infected people have gone through. I truly hope you never get it, your choice as many of us have stated, but the risk of the virus infection versus vaccination to me makes sense that everyone should be vaccinated.

[balthazar]

• One customer/friend's wife (in her early 70s) caught COVID in Feb, she was in the hospital beforehand for a bad fall, so before vacc, had mild 'cold symptoms' despite having other contributing factors. Came out of it fine.
• Another customer (circa 63) says she had it twice & was in the hospital at least once, I believe before getting vacc'd (I try not to absorb when she describes all her troubles), but she's a medical nightmare. No lasting effects that I know of, wasn't overly serious.
• Another customer's daughter tested positive (18), but no symptoms.
• A friend's daughter's fiancé just tested positive, he caught it from a co-worker, now the daughter tested positive. All 3 had 3 shots, super careful to the point of paranoia. Daughter has RA, had some breathing trouble, had to go to the hospital to get medication (but wasn't admitted). 3-4 days in so far. Fiancé has 'cold symptoms'.
• Another friend, his wife and his 2 kids all had COVID at home, they're vacc'd, he said he was very sick but he's way overweight, has diabetes & high blood pressure. Everyone is fine now.

That's my list of people I know that have had it.

Edited January 21, 2022 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

4 hours ago, David said:

STL is a democratic city in the south.

St. Louis is considered a city from the "South"?

I thought St. Louis is considered to be mid-western but does that also mean that St. Louis has Southern ties? I thought St. Louis historically had closer ties to the "North".  

 

 

 

 

[G. David Felt]

10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

St. Louis is considered a city from the "South"?

I thought St. Louis is considered to be mid-western but does that also mean that St. Louis has Southern ties? I thought St. Louis historically had closer ties to the "North".  

 

 

 

 

Really upper mid-west? I thought it was lower mid-west. Heck, I honestly am not that aware of where cities are in the mid-west, my bad.

[Robert Hall]

49 minutes ago, David said:

Really upper mid-west? I thought it was lower mid-west. Heck, I honestly am not that aware of where cities are in the mid-west, my bad.

Lower Midwest, borders southern Illinois.  On I-70.  Further south than Indianapolis or Columbus.  Missouri is the southernmost state in the large Midwest region.  (And I’m in the easternmost portion of the Midwest, bordering PA)..

Edited January 21, 2022 by Robert Hall

[ccap41]

16 hours ago, David said:

Yes, STL is a democratic city in the south.

Then why'd you use that as justification as to why I'm republican? 

16 hours ago, David said:

Yet with Vaccination, we still do have the spread of chicken pox, mumps, measles, etc. among the unvaccinated.

That's the key here. The unvaccinated are the ONLY ones spreading those. Vaccinated people are still spreading COVID and still getting sick from it. Yes, at a much lower rate.

[ccap41]

16 hours ago, David said:

As I have stated, 93% of the Covid cases in the Hospitals in just Washington State are due to unvaccinated people. The 7% that is vaccinated is due to additional medical issues.

Are you trying to say that 100% of the COVID vaccinated people that are hospitalized are there solely because of other medical issues? Do you have any proof of this because I don't believe it one bit. The same way I don't believe the only 9 people you know to have caught COVID that aren't vaccinated were hospitalized. 

Were none of those nine people in the first year when there was no vaccine available or all within the last year when there were vaccines available? 

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

St. Louis is considered a city from the "South"?

I thought St. Louis is considered to be mid-western but does that also mean that St. Louis has Southern ties? I thought St. Louis historically had closer ties to the "North".  

I've never heard St Louis considered south but I believe it has southern roots with jazz music and all. 

[G. David Felt]

Totally agree with Michael Dell on this. One reason I love working at Dell.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/20/there-will-never-be-a-post-covid-world-michael-dell.html

[Drew Dowdell]

On 1/19/2022 at 5:40 PM, ccap41 said:

Why would one care if the unvaxxed get vaxxed or not?  If one is vaxxed they should be just fine. 

Because if I slip on the ice and break my leg, I can't get into a hospital because it is overrun by the unvaccinated.  

Car accidents, heart attacks, delaying needed cancer treatments/surgery.  The unvaccinated are clogging up the health system with a disease that is now largely preventable from causing hospitalization. Unvaccinated covid patients are causing non-covid deaths. 

On 1/21/2022 at 9:18 AM, ccap41 said:

Then why'd you use that as justification as to why I'm republican? 

That's the key here. The unvaccinated are the ONLY ones spreading those. Vaccinated people are still spreading COVID and still getting sick from it. Yes, at a much lower rate.

Not necessarily. There can be breakthrough cases, and there were breakthrough cases a couple years back when a few vaccinated people got measles because so many unvaxxed around them got it. 

[ccap41]

Yet, you probably can't prove how many vaccinated individuals have died because of the unvaccinated. It's all just assumption because there are vaccinated in hospitals as well. There are SO many variables at play to make a claim of "the unvaccinated are killing the vaccinated" is pretty absurd. 

[ccap41]

On 1/19/2022 at 9:34 PM, David said:

As such, she has decided to help as much as she can those vaccinated patients before the unvaccinated which I am hearing is becoming more common.

Everybody just glossing over this statement? Does nobody else thing that'd fckd up? 

I wonder why the death rates for unvaccinated are higher, could it possibly be they are getting less help from the medical system, as clearly admitted here? 

[Drew Dowdell]

51 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yet, you probably can't prove how many vaccinated individuals have died because of the unvaccinated. It's all just assumption because there are vaccinated in hospitals as well. There are SO many variables at play to make a claim of "the unvaccinated are killing the vaccinated" is pretty absurd. 

The number of vaccinated + boosted in hospitals for Covid is so low it wouldn't be statistically significant.  A recent report from New Haven Hospital shows that 20% of Covid patients are vaccinated, but of those, the vast majority are not boosted.

This really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.  We already know that the body's immune memory for this virus degrades over time and variants accelerate this decline. In most healthy people, the immune memory for this virus declines by 7% - 10% a month.  It doesn't matter if your immunity is from a vaccine or from being infected with the virus itself, but getting vaccinated starts you off at a higher immunity than being infected.

 So in my case when I got my second vaccine back in Feb 2021, I would have had my full ~93% effective immunity by beginning of March, but by November when I got my booster, that effective immunity had likely dropped to around ~50%... below the effectiveness of the typical flu vaccine. Getting boosted should have bumped me back up over ~90% again. The narrative around the vaccine really needs to change to one of "you aren't fully vaccinated unless you're getting regular boosters" because of this immune memory decline. 

While I don't have the studies in front of me...we can prove that Covid patients are causing non-covid deaths.  All you have to do is take the excess deaths number and subtract the number of known covid deaths.  In 2021 we had over 15% higher than expected deaths for at least a total of 452,000 extra deaths (not all of the December data is in yet).  Can *I* prove it? No, I'm not a data scientist... but that knowledge exists and is out there. 

Back in November we exceeded the entirety of deaths from the HIV pandemic all the way back to the '80s... but we did it in 2 years. What would be absurd is assuming that dropping the entire 40ish year case load of the HIV/AIDS pandemic on the US health system in a matter of 2 years wouldn't impact the health system.  When hospitals have to shut down non-urgent but still pretty serious surgeries or cancer treatments due to Covid patients, there are going to be some negative outcomes. 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Everybody just glossing over this statement? Does nobody else thing that'd fckd up? 

I wonder why the death rates for unvaccinated are higher, could it possibly be they are getting less help from the medical system, as clearly admitted here? 

Where have you been for the last 18 months? This has been going on for a while. Before the vaccine hospitals were having to make choices on which patients to try and save and which not to use up valuable resources on. If a 50 year old obese man with a smoking habit and a 23 year old relatively healthy woman who never smoked both check into the ER with severe covid and there's only one ventilator or ECMO machine... guess who is getting it....   Now that we have a vaccine.. the decision usually becomes even easier.  The one who was vaccinated or boosted is probably getting more care primarily because it is more likely to have a positive outcome. We already know the results of not getting vaccinated and being checked in to get vented, the proof is stacked up in refrigerated trailers. The statistics have gotten better since the beginning of the pandemic, but if you were admitted for covid and got vented there was a ~75% chance you were leaving the hospital in a freezer truck.   There's a video going around of a guy who needs a kidney transplant turning down the kidney and preferring to die of kidney failure rather than getting the vaccine.   Talk about absurd. He's willing to die twice to "pwn the libs".  This also isn't new for transplants. Transplant patients are required to be up to date on ALL their vaccines because they will be immunosuppressed after surgery.  That's been the case for decades.  Active alcoholics don't get livers either. 

[trinacriabob]

I think people need to take some responsibility so they don't end in the hospital and burden the system.  Obviously, more elderly people are ending up in the hospital.  That will be Medicare and Medicaid dollars paying for those stays for the most part.  It's an outright waste.

My friend's mom was in the hospital for 5 to 6 days with covid.  I wonder what that tab looks like.  

My friend, and her mom and nearby relatives, all have the packaged demographics that go with the "statement" they need to make.  And this lady made the same statement others who have gotten sick and landed in the hospital have made: 'I'm glad I didn't get vaccinated.'  Just where are the brownie points, the pats on the back, or cutting in line at the Pearly Gates (if that's what you believe) going to come from?

I haven't said anything like 'this could have been avoidable' to my friend, but I'm also getting radio silence from the other end.  It's sad that this is dividing people.  I didn't think it would.

I go with what I remember from basic statistics - bell shaped curves, probability, etc. and, if I am doing just fine almost a year after receiving my first 2 injections, I will probably continue to do just fine.  Maybe some side effects may show up later.  Hopefully and probably not.  I'd rather not be fighting long-term covid.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

I think people need to take some responsibility so they don't end in the hospital and burden the system.  Obviously, more elderly people are ending up in the hospital.  That will be Medicare and Medicaid dollars paying for those stays for the most part.  It's an outright waste.

My friend's mom was in the hospital for 5 to 6 days with covid.  I wonder what that tab looks like.  

My friend, and her mom and nearby relatives, all have the packaged demographics that go with the "statement" they need to make.  And this lady made the same statement others who have gotten sick and landed in the hospital have made: 'I'm glad I didn't get vaccinated.'  Just where are the brownie points, the pats on the back, or cutting in line at the Pearly Gates (if that's what you believe) going to come from?

I haven't said anything like 'this could have been avoidable' to my friend, but I'm also getting radio silence from the other end.  It's sad that this is dividing people.  I didn't think it would.

I go with what I remember from basic statistics - bell shaped curves, probability, etc. and, if I am doing just fine almost a year after receiving my first 2 injections, I will probably continue to do just fine.  Maybe some side effects may show up later.  Hopefully and probably not.  I'd rather not be fighting long-term covid.

If the timing is right, please consider getting your third.

[trinacriabob]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

If the timing is right, please consider getting your third.

Did so a few days after Christmas.  I've have the Pfizer (2) + Moderna (1) combination.

I feel fine.

[G. David Felt]

Sad and frustrating to read stories like this of total stupidity by anti-vaxxer's. 

https://www.newsweek.com/unvaccinated-28-year-old-denial-covid-diagnosis-dies-after-ripping-off-oxygen-mask-1672332?amp=1

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, David said:

Sad and frustrating to read stories like this of total stupidity by anti-vaxxer's. 

https://www.newsweek.com/unvaccinated-28-year-old-denial-covid-diagnosis-dies-after-ripping-off-oxygen-mask-1672332?amp=1

I just don't understand... what are people like this trying to prove? And there are so many of them.  I mean... I kinda get not wanting a "new" vaccine even though the safety and efficacy is proven... I don't agree with it and I think those people are wrong... but people were afraid of lightbulb too at one point... or when men thought that women riding on trains going over 25 mph would have their uteruses fall out... 

But what's the point of denying that a virus that can kill you exists and that if you take off the medical equipment, you'll die?  It's like wandering into a tiger enclosure, taking off your protective gear, booping the tiger in the nose with a stick and then while the tiger is devouring you, you deny its existence just to try and prove someone wrong?

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I just don't understand... what are people like this trying to prove? And there are so many of them.  I mean... I kinda get not wanting a "new" vaccine even though the safety and efficacy is proven... I don't agree with it and I think those people are wrong... but people were afraid of lightbulb too at one point... or when men thought that women riding on trains going over 25 mph would have their uteruses fall out... 

But what's the point of denying that a virus that can kill you exists and that if you take off the medical equipment, you'll die?  It's like wandering into a tiger enclosure, taking off your protective gear, booping the tiger in the nose with a stick and then while the tiger is devouring you, you deny its existence just to try and prove someone wrong?

It just seems like people continue to devolve and get dumber and dumber...I wonder if there was so much skepticism and denial of the science when the polio vaccine was introduced, for example?   My older brother was of the generation of kids where that was first used.. that was in the 50s, but there are still people alive that remember it...

Sadly, the older I get, the more "Idiocracy" feels like a documentary...

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

It just seems like people continue to devolve and get dumber and dumber...I wonder if there was so much skepticism and denial of the science when the polio vaccine was introduced, for example?   My older brother was of the generation of kids where that was first used.. that was in the 50s, but there are still people alive that remember it...

Sadly, the older I get, the more "Idiocracy" feels like a documentary...

While this does happen in other countries, I think this is a largely U.S. thing (with some spillover into Canada). 

IMHO, it's largely the fault of our education system based on a flawed view of "fairness".  This idea that you have to give both sides equal time, equal attention, and equal consideration, that "everyone's opinions are valid", and the gross confusion surrounding what is an opinion and what is a fact. 

Anyone can have the opinion that they don't want to get the vaccine... but that doesn't mean the opinion was formed with actual facts. Many times that opinion is formed first and then the "facts" are sought to support it no matter what quack they come from.  While there are valid reasons to not get the vaccine (allergic to an ingredient, extremely compromised immune system), there are far more not valid reasons floating around out there (It has microchips, it's untested, it causes blood clots (not true for mRNA versions), it causes cardiac inflammation (very rarely, and the virus causes it more, and all cases of it being caused by the vaccine have been resolved with treatment). 

We've just gotten to this point where nothing is ever true because you can always find someone with an agenda to disagree with anything.  Most of the anti-vax movement that was around before Covid was caused by 7 or 8 people who run pyramid schemes to sell herbal supplements and their influence has only grown since.  They have a vested interest in spurring vaccine doubt because they hope to tell more of their snake oil.  My bet is that those at the top of the pyramid are all secretly vaxxed. 

The sad thing is that no presentation of facts will ever sway the opinions of these people because their opinion, and by extension their ego, would be too bruised if they are shown to be wrong.  They have to continue to believe quacks to keep their ego intact. 

[G. David Felt]

@Drew Dowdell @Robert Hall Had a zoom meeting with my coworkers in Cork Ireland and now that 95% of the population is vaccinated and boosted, 97% has vaccination, the place is opening up with only 1 requirement, to wear a mask out in public and inside public areas till June.  Otherwise, the overall jubilation of the folks that they are getting back to a much more normal way of life, with some very solid changes, over 50% of Irish people have groceries now home delivered reducing the amount of people shopping in store and a few other things I thought was interesting like 88% of all alcohol sold is home delivered.

They asked me why was America being so dumb about vaccination and how it keeps the hospitals from being overwhelmed? 

I honestly could only say due to ignorance of both educated and uneducated people that have bought into the Great American LIE as I have begun to call it about vaccination, and political agendas of people.

It is amazing to hear from around the world how head shaking this has become when a simple process of getting vaccinated can reduce the issues. 

I honestly think the ones here that are very much against the Covid Vaccine have not tried to understand the science or even read valid data on the virus as they seem to buy into the greatest lying media Facebook.

My wife has a friend she has known for decades, she is 70 years old, very much Anti-Vaxxer and believes even with no testing or proof that she had Covid multiple times already and swore she had the Omnicron Variant at Thanksgiving last year. 

I pointed out that the first case was reports in South Africa November 24th 2021 and in the US as of Dec 1st 2021. How could she have it before it got here?

Her response was that it already was here in the air and she knows this because the proof is on Facebook.

? When did Facebook become a credible News / academia source of data? Right NEVER! ?

It really is sad, but I have also become one that those that wish to ignore it and think they can survive without vaccination, then should pay for it all. Let them pay more in hospital costs, insurance, etc. Why should the rest of us that are vaccinated be affected? 

Let the Military setup Triage tents and let the unvaccinated attempt to recover in the tents and let those being responsible get back to life and if needed elective surgeries in the main hospital.

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, David said:

They asked me why was America being so dumb about vaccination

If you look at countries around the world, the U.S. certainly is not in '3rd world' territory AFA vaccination rate. 76% is right with Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, the UK, France, Japan, etc. 

I have read hundreds of comments on a specific O/T subject from around the world, and it can be surprising how ignorant some folk from other countries' impressions of the U.S. are.

Another unrelated comment I remember reading was a visitor from Europe was visiting friends in NY, and wanted to know if they could drive and see the Pacific Ocean one day.

Ignorance is well distributed, globally-speaking.  

[Drew Dowdell]

8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

If you look at countries around the world, the U.S. certainly is not in '3rd world' territory AFA vaccination rate. 76% is right with Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, the UK, France, Japan, etc. 

I have read hundreds of comments on a specific O/T subject from around the world, and it can be surprising how ignorant some folk from other countries' impressions of the U.S. are.

Another unrelated comment I remember reading was a visitor from Europe was visiting friends in NY, and wanted to know if they could drive and see the Pacific Ocean one day.

Ignorance is well distributed, globally-speaking.  

We have the loudest dumb dumbs.

[G. David Felt]

I find this sad about the people who have died and funny at the same time based on the web site that is listing them.

Famous Anti-Vaxxers Who Have Died From COVID-19 | NewsOne

[balthazar]

I don't think laughing at people dying is something to boast about.