TOYOTA tries to be more

[andy82471]

http://detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../605300366/1148

Does Fujio Cho always have to smile in these carefully choreographed photo ops ? Makes him look like a circus clown. But I guess he has reasons to be happy.

[CARBIZ]

Brings a tear to my eye. [Reaches for kleenex]

[siegen]

HAHAHAHA!!

That face is priceless!!

You can just see what he's thinking... "heeheehee, give me all your money!"

[Sixty8panther]

Toyota is second only to Wal*Mart in my short list of EVIL corporations.

[evok]

Toyota is second only to Wal*Mart in my short list of EVIL corporations.

There is a difference. Toyota pays there US employees well and they sell their product at a premium.

[Mr.Krinkle]

yeah, he seems to be holding on to that arm a little bit too tightly.

[Sixty8panther]

There is a difference.  Toyota pays there US employees well and they sell their product at a premium.

Yes they pay their employees well enough...

but can you honestly say they play fair in any

way they don't have to?

[enzl]

Yes they pay their employees well enough...

but can you honestly say they play fair in any

way they don't have to?

What company doesn't stretch the rules in the grey areas???GM was once a champion of just this kind of corporate manipulation...unfortunately, we all live in glass houses in this respect.

Wal-Mart, as Evok pointed out, has been wiping out community small employers for years, depressing wages and creating traffic nightmares across the country, while becoming the driving force behind the outsourcing of almost all manufacturing to low wage countries....

If anything, companies like Toyota have contributed to a much needed kick in the ass that GM, Ford, Chrysler and other companies needed to produce better product for ALL of us...I don't think anyone here would argue that competition has created better GM product. I'd blame gov't policies regarding health care and currency valuation for 50% of the uneven playing field our manufacturing base has faced in the last 20 years.

[supermoto]

Let's see if I understand the situation. Liberals think unions are great and protect the employees from evil management. GM and Ford have union contracts and pay better and have more benefits for skilled and semi-skilled workers than the non-union Toyota, but they are fools for doing that. Wal-mart pays wages no different than many of those mom and pop businesses and frequently more with some benefits. What other large national retailers pay better and have more US goods in their stores?

Wal-Mart is evil when they make a large profit. Exxon is evil when they make a large profit, even though, just like Toyota, people can choose to buy elsewhere. Toyota is called great for making a huge profit. It seems that on the coasts, which are mostly liberal, people buy a lot more Toyotas. Would seem a little two faced to me.

On a side note Toyota had revenues 30 times what Harley Davidson had, but only had profits of 15 times as much. I guess that is why Toyota's market capitalization is only 15 times Harley's. Looks like there is an American company better run than Toyota.

[KaliRover]

If anything, companies like Toyota have contributed to a much needed kick in the ass that GM, Ford, Chrysler and other companies needed to produce better product for ALL of us...

Well, maybe the Fusion would have looked a little more American... and maybe the Zephyr and Milan would have looked a little more boring...

but wait... would we have had either of those without the unfairness of from our own Government(Congress) and the kickfrom Japan's big 3??? Maybe... but highly unlikely

[roopull]

I don't get how Toyota is evil. If making money is evil, I wanna be Satan.

Wal-Mart, IMO, isn't evil because they put little Mom&Pop joints out of business... they're evil for using government to condemn private property, having governments sieze that property & then sell it to Wal-Mart for pennies on the guarantee of higher tax revenues.

Is the Harley plant unionized?

[roopull]

Born in Japan made in USA

How does that differ from "Born in USA made in Canada," or "Born in USA made in Mexico," or Born in USA made in Australia," or "Born in USA made in Germany..."

[CARBIZ]

If you can't tell the difference between "Born in Japan, Made in the USA" versus the others, then we have a serious problem.

Japan is a closed market. Ford, GM, Fiat, VW, and the others are virtually banned from building or marketing vehicles in Japan. GM, Ford, etc. build and sell cars in Canada; they build and sell cars in Europe.

THERE IS A VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE JAPANESE MARKET AND THE EUROPEAN OR NORTH AMERICAN MARKET.

You have to understand that the Japanese Big Five enjoy a virtual monopoly in Japan. Even Mercedes and BMW can't sell that many vehicles there. MITI blocks and harasses outside, foreign companies at every turn.

Besides, building an American car built in Mexico creates jobs in Mexico and maybe will keep a few extra illegals on THAT side of the border. LOL

[roopull]

I was referring more to the American market. Nothing bugs me more than some ignorant redneck in a Canadian built Chevy telling my I'm somehow unpatriotic for buying an "import." What? Is Ohio a different nation, now?

The big 2.5 "domestics" sell plenty of vehicles in the USA that aren't built here, yet they're the only ones credited with being 'domestics.' Meanwhile, a Camry is not only assembled here, but most of the parts come from here... compare that with the upcoming Chinese engines we'll be seeing in "domestics" and I get a little confused.

In truth, there is no longer a 'domestic' car company any more than Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Kia etc are imports... in my humble little opinion, anyway.

[CARBIZ]

Well, then sir, Toyota's marketing campaign has succeeded - they've convinced you.

SIGH

I've said this before, but you're new here so I'll say it again:

Buying a Japanese car is not like buying a pair of Nikes made in Singapore. If you can't see the downside to sending $30,000 to foreign soil, then you need a hard lesson in economics. Japan Inc. is doing just enough to convince people like YOU that they are as American as applie pie. Most of the parts, most of the technology and design all come from Japan. The profits also go to Japan. Most of the high paying, technical jobs are in Japan. Don't be fooled by a few warehouse and parts assembly jobs in Ohio and California.

Ford and GM employ, directly and indirectly more North Americans than all the import companies combined.

I'll leave you with two thoughts:

1) Japan's trade surplus with the U.S. (and Canada) is being balanced by their buying up of treasury bills. At some point, Tokyo is going to be telling Washington what to do.

2) Detroit was once the "arsenal of democracy." How humble will the U.S. President have to be to politely ask the Prime Minister of Japan if he can possibly commandeer a few assembly plants to build tanks and guns to fight the next war?

The only reason the navy doesn't have to ask Japan to build its next aircraft carrier is because some American shipyards survived on American military contracts when the Korean and Japanese companies ran the AMerican ship builders out of business.

So, go ahead and drive your Ohio-built Honda and know that an engineer in Osaka is sending his kid to university on your purchase when your kids are flipping burgers.

[Cory Wolfe]

Whether or not a company's product is made in the USA... They are still Japanese and will always be Japanese. People who say elsewise just befuddle me. And besides, the Japanese vehicles that were built in Japan seem to have been better than the ones made in the US, quality wise...

Regardless, though... It's not like I care where a vehicle is made. If I like it, I'm going to buy it and not bitch or put up with bitching about it being unamerican.

[roopull]

Well, then sir, Toyota's marketing campaign has succeeded - they've convinced you.

  SIGH

  I've said this before, but you're new here so I'll say it again:

  Buying a Japanese car is not like buying a pair of Nikes made in Singapore.  If you can't see the downside to sending $30,000 to foreign soil, then you need a hard lesson in economics.  Japan Inc. is doing just enough to convince people like YOU that they are as American as applie pie.  Most of the parts, most of the technology and design all come from Japan.  The profits also go to Japan.  Most of the high paying, technical jobs are in Japan.  Don't be fooled by a few warehouse and parts assembly jobs in Ohio and California.

  Ford and GM employ, directly and indirectly more North Americans than all the import companies combined.

  I'll leave you with two thoughts:

  1)  Japan's trade surplus with the U.S. (and Canada) is being balanced by their buying up of treasury bills.  At some point, Tokyo is going to be telling Washington what to do.

  2)  Detroit was once the "arsenal of democracy."  How humble will the U.S. President have to be to politely ask the Prime Minister of Japan if he can possibly commandeer a few assembly plants to build tanks and guns to fight the next war?

  The only reason the navy doesn't have to ask Japan to build its next aircraft carrier is because some American shipyards survived on American military contracts when the Korean and Japanese companies ran the AMerican ship builders out of business.

  So, go ahead and drive your Ohio-built Honda and know that an engineer in Osaka is sending his kid to university on your purchase when your kids are flipping burgers.

Riiiight.... I've bought Japan's PR BS & you've bought Detroit's.

Most of the parts, technology & design come from Japan? Wrong. You're either ignorant or intentionally lying. Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai have had design studios here for quite some time. The Camry was at one point the car with the MOST USA sourced parts of any vehicle sold here... 80%. That figure is a couple of years old, however. Either way, that number was better than anything GM, Ford or ChryCo was doing. In fact, the Honda I drive is sold nowhere BUT America. They sell an Accord badged car in Europe & Asia, but it is NOT the same chassis that's sold here. Honda of America is but one arm of a huge multi-national corporation - not unlike GM & Ford.

Commandeering plants? How the hell is any US president going to commandeer a plant in Canada or Mexico? Your own argument is an argument against your own point. Like I asked before.... is Ohio a foreign nation? How about Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, or South Carolina? If, God forbid, there were a war ugly enough to necessitate that sort of thing, there's nothing that would stop the production of tanks at an Ohio Honda plant that would stop them from being produced in a Detroit Chevy plant... a plant in Mexico or Canada would be a different story.

And sending $30,000 to a foreign soil? There's a family or two in Ohio who might take that comment as BS. Or how about the hundreds of people about to be hired by Kia here in Georgia? Unavoidably, many of those hired will be former GM Doraville assembly plant wokers & former Ford Hapeville assembly plant workers... You know... plants GM & Ford are closing down?

The simple fact is that almost every single Honda badged car you see on America's roads were built here. You simply CANNOT say that about Fords or GM badged products. IIRC, the only Japanese built Honda-badged cars on the road here are Insights & the upcoming Fit. Everthing else is built here & the ONLY time they're imported is when the Ohio plants can't keep up.

And if buying a 'domestic' is so important to the nation & money flows the way you say it does, where does the money go when a Vibe is sold? How about when one of the DSM cars were sold as Chrysler products? How about an Aveo, Geo, Raider, Tribute (or any other Mazda, for that matter?) How about when I buy a German designed & built Saturn? What about the old Merkurs?

Nay, sir, I believe you are the one who might due well to look at economics & specifically the term multinational corporation. Perhaps it's YOU that are being manipulated into blindly buying what YOU think is a domestic product. There simply are no more domestic auto manufacturers & there will soon be very few imports. It simply costs too much to produce a vehicle in only one location. That business model has been tried & has failed. Putting aside the cost of transporting them, fluctuating labor costs & currency valuation makes the terms "import" and "domestic" all but irrelevant.

The whole reason Lexus and Acura are still imported from Japan is that it's only with the extra profitability can those products be built in Japan & still be sold in the USA at an acceptible profit.

Your red white & blue Chevy is no more an American product than my Honda is an American product. The difference is only in your mind... For a REAL lesson in this brand of marketing, check out Ford. If ever there were a wiz at making a domestic an import & an import a domestic, it's Ford.

In the end, I'll buy the best product my money can find. If it's badged a Honda, so be it. I'll not buy American out of fear or pity. I'd hate to think any American would want me to.

[CARBIZ]

You've conveniently ignored where the PROFITS go and about your helping Japan buy up Washington, that's fine.

I've forgot where the posting is, but as I said, you're new - but recently we bashed this post to death and someone posted the domestic content for American versus imports. If I remember correctly, GM & Ford were around 60% and Toyota, Honda were 50% or something like that, but even those numbers conveniently ignore where the profits go and only really talk about hard products like windshields and tires, not soft products like research and design. Nobody from Japan has anything on this shore to rival GM's Technical Center. If America loses that, she loses a lot of proprietary technology to Japan Inc. - again.

If you want to justify your Honda, then you are correct that this is a FREE world and a FREE economy. But don't try to rationalize that your purchase is no different than if you buy a foreign made pair of shoes. The backbone of North America is manufacturing, but not just who BUILDS the widgets but who OWNS the trademarks, patents and assets. Do you think the 13 year old who makes running shoes in Thailand knows anything about building the factory she is in? Or will she ever hope to one day run it?

If Detroit goes down, then the most vital pilar of American manufacturing prowess will be gone and with it, all future technologies and development. Just look at where all the current technologies in electronics are coming from, yet America once owned the television and radio market.

I wonder how fast the plant in Ohio will be shut down if Ford and GM disappear?

[supermoto]

I never said Toyota is evil, yet others think Exxon and Wal-Mart are for doing the same thing. There are plenty of Wal-Marts near me and none of them aquired their land by having a local government condemn land to sell to them. If someone has proof of that, please enlighten me. Wal-Mart also hasn't had any stores built with corporate welfare like Toyota has had plants built that way. No government has paid for infrastructure changes to entice Wal-Mart to come to town.

Harley being unionized or not has little to do with the fact that Harley outperforms Toyota as a business, but isn't praised by the media for their better performance.

I recently read that Camrys are being built in China for that market and engines for those vehicles are built there and also exported to Japan and the US. GM only builds engines in China for the Equinox and Torrent and the rest stay in China. Where's the difference?

Just because holders of T-Bills are from Japan doesn't mean they own our country. T-Bills are guaranteed by the faith and financial ability to repay backed by the US government. We will never have to ask them for permission to do anything. If the value of the dollar drops dramatically, they lose money. It seems they better be just as nice to us.

If some believe that cars like the Camry are mostly sourced from the US, they are the ignorant ones. Having a few token engineers to help plan a new product that is more fitting to the US market doesn't mean all the engineers and designers are in the US. DCX has far more engineers and designers here than Toyota and sell around the same number of vehicles. DCX has far more employees in the US assembling those vehicles as well. Two thirds of Toyotas cars are assembled here with 3/4 of those engines having final assembly here. Less than half of the transmissions are built here. GM builds the Duramax in Ohio with a number of parts from Japan and the original design made there. If that were Toyota it would be called 100% by the blind faithfull. Same situation with transmissions and a lot of other componenets. To build a car takes tooling. Any guesses where Toyota's tooling is made? You'd have to guess because Toyota won't admit to where it comes from.

I have a vehicle designed and built in America with mostly American components. There is not a Japanese product that can meet my needs as well as it does. I don't have a German designed and built Saturn and I don't see where Saturn does either. The Japanese are adding a lot of jobs and investment in the US, but calling them just as American is very premature. GM and Ford are using a lot of their global investments for new product here, I just don't have one yet.

[Cory Wolfe]

Wal Mart was kept out of my town...

[siegen]

In fact, the Honda I drive is sold nowhere BUT America.  They sell an Accord badged car in Europe & Asia, but it is NOT the same chassis that's sold here.

If you're referring to the American Accord, it is rebadged as the Inspire elsewhere (click). The Acura TSX is a rebadged version of the Accord used in Europe and Japan.

You've conveniently ignored where the PROFITS go and about your helping Japan buy up Washington, that's fine.

Where DO the profits go?

[Satty]

Wal Mart was kept out of my town...

lucky bastard

[Flybrian]

Wal Mart was kept out of my town...

By lack of customers?

[CaddyXLR-V]

Wal Mart was kept out of my town...

I wish that were the case here. We have about 10 super walmarts, and a handful of regular walmarts. We used to have a Safeway about 200 ft from my house, but they closed. I wonder why?

[roopull]

Some of you guys are missing my point. I'm not saying Honda & Toyota are just as American as Chevy & Ford (although, really, they are.) I'm saying Chevy & Ford are just as unAmerican as Honda & Toyota.

Let's figure the profit line, since that's a favorite. Why is it important to follow the profits to where they'll end up? Really... ask yourself that question. Is it so that you make sure it's an American executive who makes a few million versus a Japanese one?

No.

The reason most folks, if they thought it through, would want the profits to stay in the US is because a US company theoretically will re-invest that money into more American plants, more American manufacturing capacity, and therefore, more American jobs.

However, lately, that's not how it works. GM, Ford, & ChryCo are taking those American dollars & investing in plants - not in the USA, but in Mexico & specifically Canada. Why? If any of those three open a plant in the US, they're hampered by UAW workers... and this drives the UAW nuts, but they're exponentially more expensive as a workforce than non-unionized workers. Of course, in Canada, they have THAT union to deal with, but compared to the UAW, the Canadians are much much cheaper to employ.

Nissan, Toyota, and Honda, on the other hand, can hire the most productive workers in the world - American workers - and not worry about the UAW. They can open up shop in 'right to work' states like Georgia & produce cars with labor that's impossibly cheap.

So, while Ford, GM & Chryco are investing in foreign plants, Nissan Toyota and Honda are investing here in the USA. They do that with profits that are made here.

For every instance any one can show of a domestic company building or expanding a plant in the USA, I can post three examples of them closing plants, reducing capacity, or one of Japan's big three doing the opposite... IN AMERICA.

Toyota is no more a Japanese company than GM is an American one. They're all multinationals & are all going to get their resources from the least expensive place they can find them. General Motors is an American/Canadian/Mexican/French/British/Australian/Chinese[etc] company, just like Honda & Toyota. They're all whores of the dollar - be it a Canuck dollar, American dollar, or even Euro. They'll buy from the cheapest supplier & that includes labor. For GM, Canada is a bit cheaper. For Toyota, Tennessee is. Go figure. GM doesn't expand their plants in Canada because they're unpatriotic & Toyota doesn't build a plant in Tennessee to show thier American spirit. They do it to maximize profit.

---------

The profits from my Honda are being spent on approx 1500 new jobs and expanded manufacturing capacity in Ohio... not that I'd ever make a $25K purchase based on where a product was manufactured.

-------

Look at it like this. GM certainly won't hire me just because I'm an American... they'd hire me based on the merits of my work. I have no higher standard for GM. If they make a product that gives me the best bang for my buck, I'll buy & so will every other American.

With that, I point to the Solstice & Sky as proof. Anyone seen a 3rd gen. Miata, lately? They're being outsold 2 to 1 even with the limited supply of the Solstice/Sky.

You guys can keep your arguments about what makes a domestic & what makes an import. Fact is, most of us clearly don't give a crap. Build kick-a$$ cars & we'll buy them.

[Snate]

Some of you guys are missing my point. I'm not saying Honda & Toyota are just as American as Chevy & Ford (although, really, they are.) I'm saying Chevy & Ford are just as unAmerican as Honda & Toyota.

No they really aren't. Honda and Toyota directly or indirectly employ a fraction of the people that Ford and GM do. This also does not take into consideration the amount of retirees that Ford and GM continue to support.

[CARBIZ]

Hell, it would appear that I am more patriotic for American products than some Americans are! LOL.

When I chose my cell phone, I decided that it didn't much matter which phone I chose, that I would get gouged by all of them equally, but I finally decided on Bell, which is a Canadian company, over AT&T or any of the others. My logic was that if I was going to get hosed, at least some executive in Montreal will be getting the money, rather than some guy in New York.

That is the way I look at cars, which are far more important to the economy in NOrth America than cell phones. All things being equal (and I truly believe that they are), I would rather by an American car, built by an American car company where the vast majority of the parts, technology, and design are American. The odds are far better that some fat cat in Detroit is going to buy a cottage in Muskoka and maybe stop at Wal-Mart on his way up and drop $100 in the Canadian economy than some Tojo in Japan.

GM (and Ford, Chrysler) have historically invested hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in North America. Toyota and HOnda will never come close.

I find it amusing that people are making the assumption that Japan Inc are building factories here because Amercans are more efficient and cheaper. That is a laugh. Someone needs a serioius lesson in labor econonics and Japanese trade practices.

There is only one reason Honda and Toyota built plants in North America: to avoid tariffs. Canada and the U.S. have enjoyed a special trade relationship since the Auto Pact was realized in 1965. After that point, parts and vehicles could travel across the border virtually duty free. This trade relationship is MUTUALLY beneficial because over 1 million American cars and trucks are sold here every year, so it behooves American manufacturers to spread some of the wealth around.

Not so for Japan Inc. Their vehicles were not part of the Auto Pact and were slapped with heavy duties. Japan INc is many things but stupid is not one of them. After the backlash of the initial incursion of Japanese cars in the early '80s, Japan Inc. got wise and decided they had better start building some cars here before somebody in Washington (or Ottawa) woke up and realized somoene else was having a free ride at our expense.

DO NOT THINK THAT FOR ONE SECOND HONDA AND TOYOTA WOULDN'T GLEEFULLY CLOSE NORTH AMERICAN PLANTS ONCE THEY NO LONGER HAVE DETROIT TO KICK AROUND.

Juding by the reaction to some on this board, I would say they are already more than 3/4 of the way to having acheived their goal.

[roopull]

For every instance any one can show of a domestic company building or expanding a plant in the USA, I can post three examples of them closing plants, reducing capacity, or one of Japan's big three doing the opposite... IN AMERICA.

Still waiting.

And yes, Toyota, Honda & the rest build plants here because the workforce is cheaper & more effecient than just about anywhere else (assuming you're not hiring UAW.)

Are their other factors? Of course. Tons of them. Many of them also explain why Toyota is building plants in Canada, too, as opposed to the USA.

Canada is NOT the same as the USA.

Would Honda & Toyota close plants if the big 2.5 vanished? Please... that has to be the dumbest thing I've read in days. What? Like I'm going to be scared into buying a domestic. If anything, that makes me want to buy a car they don't build here, just to hurry the process along...

[Imaj]

QUOTE(roopull @ Jun 12 2006, 09:36 AM)

In fact, the Honda I drive is sold nowhere BUT America.  They sell an Accord badged car in Europe & Asia, but it is NOT the same chassis that's sold here.

Nope! it is sold elsewhere as Accord in the Middle East and Inspire in Japan. And both versions are built in Japan.

Edited June 14, 2006 by Imaj

[CARBIZ]

Roo, your ignorance knows no bounds

First of all, buying an Impala, which is built in Canada is not the same thing as buying a Honda built in Ohio - not even close.

Let me explain to you why. First of all (and most importantly), Canada participates in mutual trade with the U.S. Canadians buy over 1 million Fords, Chryslers and GM vehicles EVERY year. How many American cars do Japanese consumers buy every year? 15,000? Maybe 25,000? Japan is a closed market. Foreign companies are not welcome. MITI blocks them at every turn. Just ask Toys R Us, or Houdaille in Texas or hundreds of other American companies that are either blocked or forced into "partnerships" to sell or build things in Japan.

GM and Ford are wholly owned American companies. Toyota and Honda are not.

That much should be obvious, but I take nothing for granted.

You seem to revel in the fact that as Japan opens plants in North America and GM and Ford close them that there is somehow some sense of balance. Again, not even close. GM and Ford directly and indirectly employ more than 3 times the North Americans. A good case in point would be Toyota hiring 900 workers in Woodstock, Ontario recently while GM and Ford lay off 3,400 in Ontario. Great math!

It isn't about being "scared" into buying a domestic. It is about national security and fairness. Japan Inc. does not fight fair. MITI sees to that.

I have to ask you, though - if the Camry and Impala were equal (and in my opinion they are - even the Toronto Star, which hates GM, says that!), why wouldn't you buy an Impala? Nobody would ask you to buy something that is clearly inferior, but if you test drove an Impala and Camry, or Corolla and Cobalt and determined that they were at least equal, wouldn't it make sense to keep your money in North America?

Toshiba, Hitachi and Matsu$h!a ran RCA, Zenith and others either into bankruptcy or were absorbed by Japanese companies because MITI subsidized them with sugar import quotas throughout the 1960s to offset their losses in North America. Even Iaccoca spoke of the heads of Nissan, Honda, etc. having regular meetings in Japan in his first book.

Why would you want to support a country that treats foreign trade like a war?

[roopull]

Ignoring your A-hole first statement, like I said earlier, if GM builds kick a$$ cars, we'll buy them & that includes me. Of course, since I've been buying Hondas since the 80s, a time when GM couldn't build a decent matchbox car, much less something as wonderful as my first Civic, I know a lot about Hondas & how to work on them. For example, I can do my own brakes, CV joints (both Honda weaknesses, imo) and other simple little things you learn over the years.

Why would you want to support a country that treats foreign trade like a war?

Honestly, we all do. You do realize that America also has trade barriers up blocking Japan (and every other nation's products) & tarriffs that are & were unfair when they were set-up, right? We can focus on Japan & say Japan is evil & all that crap, but America has so many trade barriers up, it's mind boggling. If you want to cite barriers, what do you say we start a little competition & see who gets bored first... sugar, lumber, corn... this could be fun! And hey, I get to cite all those nations that want to sell food here - third world countries that could really use a market for the only products they can produce, but are locked out of our nation's market because we want to protect Americans. Yeah, this could be lot of fun!

My point is that Japan is no more unfair than America & America no more unfair than Japan. Each free nation's elected officials try to buy votes by blocking foreign competition. Toyota & Honda have founda way around that & bravo for them. I applaud them.

And, I'm not saying the closing of domestic plants somehow pleases me, but I am pleased to see that at least SOMEONE knows how to run a business & employ American in manufacturing jobs. I personally got sick to my stomach when, fifteen years ago, I was reading that Americans couldn't compete with the Japanese. What a load of crap! To see that cars are being desined & built here (albeit by Japanese owned companies) that are among the best in the world just made my friggin' day. Now, GM & Ford are finally stepping up to the plate & actually competing. Bravo for them & I applaud them, too. It's about damn time. They wouldn't have done it had it not been for the Japs. We'd still be replacing our cars ever 100K miles in stead of every 200 or 250...

I digress... You say it's about national security & fairness... well, if the national securty you're referring to is the 'comandeering of plants' they way Uncle Sham did in WWII, it's hard for Washington to comandeer a plant in Ontario, but not so hard to do so to one in Ohio, South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, or Tennessee. Other than that, maybe I'm missing the national security issue (which certainly sounds like I should fear buying imports.)

As far as fairness goes, it's a business. The domestics & the UAW have plenty of lobbyists in Washington doing their best to unlevel the playing field. So do the Japanese. If there's one phrase I can't stand to hear it's someone saying, "It's not fair." That kind of thinking belongs in the mouths of welfare recipients & New Orleans Bridge People. Don't make excuses, make kick-a$$ cars.

Now, back to your question of the Camry vs. the Impala... All things being equal, I'd probably go for the Impala, because I'd seriously rather buy an American product... My first car was a 66 FuryIII. I loved that thing. The Fury, you might remember, competed directly with the Impala. The 60s were a time for the big three to shine. They made gorgeous cars back then... In that respect, the American companies have a bit of an advantage over the Japanese branded companies.

However, throughout the 70s & 80s, the big three pissed much of that advantage away. I'm 31 & consider my love affair with big American cars to make me a bit of an odd-ball. Unlike my friends, my 'fun cars' have all been domestics from the 60s (my fave being my 63 Corvaire.) Most of my friends my age grew up driving 2nd hand Civics, CRXs, Celicas, Corollas etc... driving them until they had 200K miles on the odo & loving every minute of it. The Japanese bought our hearts with cheap reliable cars while America was trying to sell us crap like the Tempo & Cavalier. Since then, they've even started making the cars here, while the "Americans" started building their cars in Mexico & Canada & importing them here! Then, guys like you have the nerve to tell me to NOT buy my Japanese branded American built car, but opt for a Canadian imported American branded car? Huh? Am I missing something? Most folks who buy 'imports' would buy Japanese no matter where they're built... having them assembled here is just the icing on the cake. And yes, we all realize that the big three employ more folks here... God knows you can't fire a UAW employee! You can, but you still have to pay them! HA! How stupid is that!

When my Fury finally threw a rod, I walked into a Ford dealership to buy a used car. The only two cars on the lot that were in my price range & were vaguely what I wanted was an 89 Civic & an 89 Cavalier. The Civic had twice as many miles, but was in much better condition. The rest is history... it was replaced by an Integra, then a Prelude, then a succession of Accords.

I'm not trying to convince you or change your mind, just explain how things are... Would it have been fair to force me to buy that crappy Cavalier? I drove that Civic until it had 227K miles if I remember correctly & sold it for two grand. I'd bought it for five. The Cavalier wasn't worth a crap when I looked at it & clearly wouldn't have lasted nearly as long & wouldn't have sold for nearly as much... of course, I'm basing that off of my knowledge of how crappy the Cavalier was & how low resale values for it were.

Fair is buying the best product my money can find. Fair is building the best product & offering it for the best price. For twenty plus years, the UAW & the big three ignored that fact & fought with each other. Meanwhile, the Japanese branded companies were making these decontented little cars & beginning a love affair with the American consumer. The UAW & the big three are getting exactly what they sowed in the 70s, 80s & some of the 90s (IMO, Chrysler is still making good looking CRAPPY cars.)

The only way for the domestics to win MY heart back & the hearts of every other American is to quit whining about what's fair... to quit having news stories about the poor pitiful UAW workers plight (most folks, IMO, can't stand the UAW,) and to start building kick a$$ cars.

Personally, I think both GM and Ford have begun to turned that corner. Caddy, Buick, and Lincoln are making great cars & Chevy is really stepping up to the plate with some reliable vehicles (aside from their trucks, for once.) If GM will continue this trend & further clean up its absolutely confuzzled line-up, they might start getting some love... don't look for that love to come any time soon, though... they've got two decades of making 100% sh!t to account for. Overcoming that will take time... time & kick a$$ cars.

[supermoto]

If you feel that the best vehicles you have owned were Japanese, can you accept that the best I have owned were domestic? There has not been up to this point a Japanese pickup that is capable of replacing the domestics I have owned. My current Chevy with 233k miles has done an excellant job of meeting my needs and being reliable and it is not the only domestic that has given me reliable service.

I have a 95 Taurus that most of those who worship anything Japanese will tell you is not comparable to a Toyota or Honda. So far I have replaced the alternator and both oxygen sensors in 118k miles. Nothing else but oil changes and front brakes once. Should I complain about that kind of service from a vehicle?

I once many years ago traded a friend an 83 GMC for a late 70's Nissan 200SX and some money on top. During the negotiations he kept telling me what book value was for his and the loose door handles, clunk in the steering, rattles, loose shifter and seats that were frayed was normal for 80k miles. I told him to drive my 110k mile truck that looks and drives much better first. When I did get the Nissan on the freeway, it also had a noise in the rear end. I was overjoyed when some fool paid what I needed to take that turkey off my hands. I was really surprised how eager buyers where to own something as tired as it was. Learned then just how perception can cloud the thinking of people. It was only one example of a Japanese car, but it was the worst car I ever owned.

[balthazar]

Lovely diatribe above from 'roo on assembly plants; but that is far from the majority of respective corporate profit investment. Tiny portion of a much bigger picture.

[siegen]

A good case in point would be Toyota hiring 900 workers in Woodstock, Ontario recently while GM and Ford lay off 3,400 in Ontario.  Great math!

If Toyota can build the same number of vehicles with 900 workers that took GM 3,400, then good job to Toyota for being more efficient. Sure we'd all like GM to be there to employ everybody and give everyone great benefits and lots of retirement money and really nice wages. But honestly, it's not realistic, and that's why GM is where they are right now, downsizing and streamlining production.

I have a 95 Taurus. So far I have replaced the alternator and both oxygen sensors in 118k miles. Should I complain about that kind of service from a vehicle?

That's not a very good example of a reliable car. Although it does put my friend's old 95 Cavalier to shame :AH-HA_wink:

[roopull]

If you feel that the best vehicles you have owned were Japanese, can you accept that the best I have owned were domestic?

Absolutely.... specifically if you've been driving trucks. The Japanese makes can't touch GM & Ford. The Nissan is a nice try, & the Tundra is looking promising, but imo, they have a long way to go.

There has not been up to this point a Japanese pickup that is capable of replacing the domestics I have owned. My current Chevy with 233k miles has done an excellant job of meeting my needs and being reliable and it is not the only domestic that has given me reliable service.

Through work, I've owned a variety of trucks. Although the Chevy Luv & Ford Courrier (a Mazda) were great little trucks, I doubt any logical person would argue that the only place to get a decent REAL truck is Ford or GM. That being said, I'm quite surprised Isuzu hasn't transformed their NPR model into a non-commercial vehicle. It's a stout little bugger, too.

I have a 95 Taurus that most of those who worship anything Japanese will tell you is not comparable to a Toyota or Honda. So far I have replaced the alternator and both oxygen sensors in 118k miles. Nothing else but oil changes and front brakes once. Should I complain about that kind of service from a vehicle?

Only 118K miles? Do you only drive that thing on the weekends!?!?! My 95 Accord almost has TWICE that many miles!!! But, to answer your question, no you can't really complain. The Taurus is also a bigger & quiter car. I don't recall saying that the domestics don't make any good cars. In fact, I do think I said the domestics made crappy cars in the 70s, 80s & part of the 90s, with Chrysler still making absolute crap.

I once many years ago traded a friend an 83 GMC for a late 70's Nissan 200SX and some money on top... It was only one example of a Japanese car, but it was the worst car I ever owned.

Remember, Nissan & the other Japanese brands are NOT Honda & Toyota. The generalizations are rediculous & have helped sh!tty companies like Mitsubishi stay alive. Just as I wouldn't lump Chrysler in with GM & Ford, I don't think anyone should be lumping Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mazda etc in with Honda & Toyota.

  Lovely diatribe above from 'roo on assembly plants; but that is far from the majority of respective corporate profit investment. Tiny portion of a much bigger picture.

On this very website, there's a story about Ford shifting - not only production - but a whole litany of skilled positions to Mexico. It goes on about how this is part of Ford's way forward plan or whatever it's called. Face it... the days of GM & Ford truly being American companies is slipping away. At the current trend, in a couple of decades, the only thing they'll be doing here is selling cars.

[CARBIZ]

Well, it is good to have another Toyota/Honda apologist out there. Lord knows there aren't enough of them!

Let me leave you with another thought. I was thinking about this as I was reading my morning paper.

I am going to throw this statement out there and I want people to consider it in the broader context of what is happening globally. Remember: if you buy a $30,000 car, even if only 1/3 of it leaves North America, that is a lot of cash.

Buying a Japanese car (and to lesser extent German) is tantamount to cultural and political suicide. Japan Inc. is growing in global power. What most people are missing is that the Japanese home market has been stagnant for over a decade. The common people of Japan are mired in economic recession. The banks are in crisis over there; the housing market was leveraged too much. Yet all of this has been happening while large Japanese corporations are seeing more and more of their economic power overseas and all of this against the backdrop of a deliberately depressed currency. Why has this happened?

I would wager that MITI is orchestrating this. The common people are paying for Japanese foreign corporate expansions, just like they would in any conventional war. MAKE NO MISTAKE: MITI HAS THE EAR OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND THEIR SOLE PURPOSE FOR EXISTENCE IS TO TARGET AND DEMOLISH FOREIGN MARKETS.

Toyota and Honda have executed an impressive volley of shots over the past 20 years. First, they got lucky: while Detroit floundered around trying to figure out how to build fuel sipping cars, Japan already had them. Then with the help of puppets in the media, they secured their beach head with luxury cars. Just to ensure Washington couldn't object, they opened a few assembly plants here, making sure they were in States where the governor could become their spokesperson. Pitting American job against American job, Japan Inc. has been secure knowing that every time Detroit closed a plant somewhere, Japan Inc. could triumphantly point to one of their plants opening somewhere else. Throw in a select group of accountants to muddy the waters and an unusually contrite media, and now we are to believe Toyota is as American as apple pie. I mean, how do we really know how many people work for Toyota or for GM, right?

As I have tirelessly said, our company owns TWO Toyota stores and a GM store. There are just as many bodies buried in the back yard at Toyota, but nobody talks about them. I am 45 and just old enough to have lived through the Perfect Storm of the '70s (CAFE ratings, pollution controls, two energy crises and ever increasing government intervention) and can understand what has gotten us from there to here.

I also understand that there is clearly a different mindset with the import buyer. I am talking about the average buyer, not some of the self-appointed experts that populate this board. These people will justify thousands of dollars in maintenance, higher insurance and all sorts of injustices just because they bought an Audi, or Lexus or whatever. Most people don't keep good records and when challenged they will bluster that their car has been a "good" car, but they really are only following the party line. And who can blame them? If you deliberately spend $5,000 more for a Camry over the same-equipped Impala, you would be loathe (publicly, at least) to admit that you f**ked up!

It is good to have choices, and I don't believe it will be the end of the world if GM settles on 20% market share here and with Lutz calling the shots I have faith that GM will regain its luster in the media's eye eventually.

Just don't dare try to tell me that buying a Toyota or Honda is not causing some degree of harm to our way of life. Period.

[grandmarquis]

roo, since apparently a 115k 95 taurus don't impress you, maybe my 91 grand marquis with 230k would. i will grant you this much, since the engine was replaced at 74k (due to owner neglect) but everything else except the idler arm, pittman arm, and brake lines, are original( and i don't baby it at all, other than maintanence). now, i am guessing you don't live in the rust belt, because the odds of your 95 accord doing what it has would be rather slim. up here in the cleveland area we use a gawdawful amount of road salt in the winter. around here, japanese cars still rust worse that domestics for the most part. accords tend to suffer from structural rust, usually where the rear suspension components attach. i have seen this on accords as new as 97. camry's up to 96 suffer similarly. this i just don't see in domestics. we still have an unreal amount of mid 80's crown vics/grand marquis/town car on our roads here, and a heck of a lot of fwd full-size mid 80's gm cars as well. gm10's seem to hold up well too. they may be rusty as hell, but they just aren't becoming unsafe as 1o or so yr old japanese cars, when they aren't babied, tend to do.

[Hudson]

No they really aren't.  Honda and Toyota directly or indirectly employ a fraction of the people that Ford and GM do.  This also does not take into consideration the amount of retirees that Ford and GM continue to support.

Ford and GM are forced to employ TOO MANY people and this is keeping those companies from being more competitive. Honda and Toyota build fewer vehicles in North America than either Ford or GM, but they're increasing that number...and increasing the number of domestic suppliers, engineers, and assembly line workers. GM and Ford, on the other hand, are trying to decrease the number of assembly line workers they have (because the have to). And they are trying to INCREASE the number of foreign parts in their vehicles (because they want to please their stockholders and line the pockets of their overpaid executives). GM and Ford are trying to find ways NOT to support those retirees. So much for patriotism from the Big2.

[xdre]

Let's figure the profit line, since that's a favorite.  Why is it important to follow the profits to where they'll end up?  Really... ask yourself that question.  Is it so that you make sure it's an American executive who makes a few million versus a Japanese one?

No.

Correct. It's so that future advances, let's say for example hydrogen cars and the ancilliary tech that comes with them, can be designed here, instead of only in another country. It's so the Big 3 can afford to pay all those retired Baby Boomers and their parents instead of having them put an even bigger strain on Social Security than there already is. It's so our middle class can even afford to buy cars from import brands. It's also so our dollar doesn't become as worthless as many third-world countries' currency.

Nissan, Toyota, and Honda, on the other hand, can hire the most productive workers in the world - American workers - and not worry about the UAW.  They can open up shop in 'right to work' states like Georgia & produce cars with labor that's impossibly cheap.

You say that like it's a good thing. Downward forces on wages are rarely a good thing.

So, while Ford, GM & Chryco are investing in foreign plants, Nissan Toyota and Honda are investing here in the USA.  They do that with profits that are made here.

Except that Toyota and Honda still don't even have as many plants here in the USA as Chrysler alone.

Toyota is no more a Japanese company than GM is an American one.

That doesn't explain why Toyota reports profits in yen while GM reports profits in dollars.

  You guys can keep your arguments about what makes a domestic & what makes an import.  Fact is, most of us clearly don't give a crap.

That was quite a long post for someone who doesn't give a crap.

Build kick-a$$ cars & we'll buy them.

That's the only thing you've said I agree with. But the fact is, stating that it doesn't matter if Toyota is really Japanese just because they invest in the US is just denial.

[supermoto]

So Siegen why is my Taurus not a good example of a reliable car? I did ask if I should be disappointed with it given the service I have received so far. Try addressing that. Do I need to be disappointed with it's reliability or should I just assume that since a lot of people that hate domestics consider it unreliable, I should take their word for it. None of the friends I have with Japanese cars can show me better reliability at the same mileage. I can't vouch for the first 33k miles as that is how much it had when I got it 2 1/2 years ago. It had been hit in the front and I repaired it and I have a good car. What else do I need to consider?

[siegen]

So Siegen why is my Taurus not a good example of a reliable car? I did ask if I should be disappointed with it given the service I have received so far. Try addressing that.  Do I need to be disappointed with it's reliability or should I just assume that since a lot of people that hate domestics consider it unreliable, I should take their word for it. None of the friends I have with Japanese cars can show me better reliability at the same mileage.  I can't vouch for the first 33k miles as that is how much it  had when I got it 2 1/2 years ago. It had been hit in the front and I repaired it and I have a good car. What else do I need to consider?

I'm not saying that level of maintenance is unacceptable by any means. But, the alternator at least shouldn't have gone out that early. The O2 sensors I could see going out if you live in a very wet state that uses salt on the roads every winter.

[haypops]

Remember, Nissan & the other Japanese brands are NOT Honda & Toyota. The generalizations are rediculous & have helped sh!tty companies like Mitsubishi stay alive. Just as I wouldn't lump Chrysler in with GM & Ford, I don't think anyone should be lumping Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mazda etc in with Honda & Toyota.

 

The above is my contention also.

I do think, however, you are a little too understanding of Toyota/Honda cars.

The domestic fans on the other hand assume a Toyota built in Kentucky is no better for the U.S. worker than one made in Japan. No explanation/excuse is given. Likewise the assumption that 1/3 of the cost of a car is profit seems innacurate.

Finally for all of those Ford and Honda owners who are so pleased with their longetivity consider this.

Edited June 16, 2006 by haypops

[supermoto]

Are you serious? The alternator is a problem for lasting over a 100k miles? My friend's wife has a 94 Corolla that had an alternator failure sooner than that. In a very hot climate alternator failure is a more common problem. Mine only had a bearing noise and I chose to swap it before it failed. A mechanic told me 60 - 80k is normal for an O2 sensor and mine had a metal tube with a ceramic insulator inside that was bent over causing the insulator to crack and the SES light to stay on. It very possibly was caused by a rock bouncing up.

I don't know what fantasy world you live in, but two replaced parts in over 100k is not indicative of a vehicle that's in the shop all the time. That's the comment most people who worship Japanese vehicles have about a Taurus and they tell me I that is what I should expect. When I look at the results they have with even Hondas and Toyotas, I really don't see any better reliability. I also can't believe some of the prices they will pay for parts and then say, but it's a better quality part. I guess that's why they are buying one.

[regfootball]

oh well, Americans will be bypassing arrogant toyota in about 5 years for upstart hyundai and other koreans.

how many 70's and 80's GM pickups are still going strong yet i struggle to see very many toyota pickups on the road from even the early or mid or or even late 90's......

[roopull]

Nissan, Toyota, and Honda, on the other hand, can hire the most productive workers in the world - American workers - and not worry about the UAW.  They can open up shop in 'right to work' states like Georgia & produce cars with labor that's impossibly cheap.

You say that like it's a good thing.  Downward forces on wages are rarely a good thing.

It is a good thing. Artificially inflating the cost of labor via what is essentially extortion is a horrible thing & the hemmoraging of $$$ and employees that GM is suffering from is a very direct result of it.

UAW = artificially inflated labor costs. It's a simple little fact.

In the long run, if a company can buy labor at fair market value, it ensures jobs those people depend upon.

[roopull]

Are you serious? The alternator is a problem for lasting over a 100k miles? [...].

I don't know what fantasy world you live in, but two replaced parts in over 100k is not indicative of a vehicle that's in the shop all the time....

While I've never replaced an O2 sensor on any of my cars (even the domestics - go figure,) I generally think of alternators as being 80K mile parts. I've had some last much longer & some last for less time. Generally, I replace them with a Bosch & that's the last I think of it. I have never replaced an alternator for a second time... which makes me wonder what's wrong with the factory ones - import & domestic!

I'm just amazed that an 11 year old car has that few miles! For a while, I was putting 60K a year on my Jetta while at the same time putting 30K on my Accord. Then again, I love driving!

[roopull]

If you're referring to the American Accord, it is rebadged as the Inspire elsewhere (click). The Acura TSX is a rebadged version of the Accord used in Europe and Japan.

Those are built in Japan, aren't they? IIRC, the Accords built in Ohio are ONLY sold in the USA... well, no... they're sold in Canada & perhaps Mexico, too, methinks.

[xdre]

It is a good thing.  Artificially inflating the cost of labor via what is essentially extortion is a horrible thing & the hemmoraging of $$$ and employees that GM is suffering from is a very direct result of it.

GM is powerful enough as an organization that "extortion" is a ridiculously overblown description.

UAW = artificially inflated labor costs.  It's a simple little fact.

Here's another simple little fact: Those non-union factories aren't paying much less.

As a matter of fact, if you think the UAW is bad, check out what VW auto workers make sometime--with a 28-hour work week.

In the long run, if a company can buy labor at fair market value, it ensures jobs those people depend upon.

Have you ever worked in, or visited an automotive factory? I suspect you wouldn't be quite so cavalier about what you perceive to be the fair market value for those jobs if you had. Edited June 16, 2006 by xdre

[xdre]

Those are built in Japan, aren't they?  IIRC, the Accords built in Ohio are ONLY sold in the USA...  well, no...  they're sold in Canada & perhaps Mexico, too, methinks.

Honda was exporting Ohio-built cars to Japan as recently as 1999. If they've stopped it's a fairly recent occurence. Edited June 16, 2006 by xdre

[pow]

Honda was exporting Ohio-built cars to Japan as recently as 1999.  If they've stopped it's a fairly recent occurence.

Toyota sells American-made and American-designed cars in Japan, too... the Avalon.