Cadillac CTS Sales are Down 41% in 2015

Cmicasa the Great · June 13, 2015

This article carries on where the one below started earlier this year,

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/02/cadillac-has-hard-time-selling-ats-and.html

"Cadillac’s ATS and CTS aren’t too good at convincing people to choose them over German premium sedans. Dealers throughout the United States are offering significant discounts on the two sedans. In some cases, the 2014 Cadillac ATS is offered with up to $12,000 off a sticker price that starts at about $33,215.

The situation is similar with the 2014 CTS, which is offered with a discount of up to $17,500 from the starting price of $45,345. According to a report from Reuters, dealers have been asking for Cadillac incentives for a long time.

What this says is Cadillac’s strategy to rival BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the luxury sedan market doesn’t appear to be working. Drivers of German luxury sedans aren’t willing to switch to Cadillac."

I gotta say that being able to buy a $45K vehicle for $28K is a helluva bargain.. but its the norm within an Industry that U have no knowledge of apparently. This is most likely to U cheering on and believing that a slightly plusher Fusion or Taurus.. is the epitome of the segment.

$17,500??? I kno where I could get a $50,000 discount on a 2014 S63AMG 4matic.. that's a fact

I understand the CTS to be a fine automobile from Cadillac. Never, ever, have I said it was not, nor have I ever suggested it was less than a Ford equivalent, which does not really exist anyway. At least not is size and architecture. And although my Father retired from Cadillac and I was raised a GM kid and have driven in more GM vehicles than I have Ford, I wish GM no ill and cheer for them whenever I can. But….. I must admit taking an ounce of pleasure in providing this information, right smack in the face, of the same few people who trash Lincoln’s ever step, every chance they get, which is legendary. My point? One size, shape or approach does not fit all. GM needs to better understand it’s customer, and adjust it’s whole approach to that demographic. If that means a bit more conventional and desirable plush-ness in a luxury sedan that also differentiates itself from the world, rather than duplicate it, then so be it. And since every other luxury automaker seems to have prioritized offering the customer what they want, CUV’s, then Caddy is now behind the 8-ball there. People want them so bad they are settling for that tired excuse of a small CUV, and GM is happy to keep lowering the price of it through incentives.

Come on Caddy, you can do better.

PErsonally I don;t need to hear your GM origins anymore.. Its like a white guy saying he's not racist because he knu a Black kid when he growing up...

The deal is that U ARE taking an ounce of pleasure in baiting Cadillac fans because of lower sales that can be explained not by bashing the existing car.. or the manner in which drives or doesn't... but in simply taking a look at the real reasons why it isn't selling in the same numbers as the competition. I will be the first to admit that it is Cadillac's fault that the CTS and ATS aren't selling in the same numbers as the 3/5series or C/E-class, but I would also point out that it is a strong possibility.. logically speaking.. that the proportion of ATS and CTS sales are within the same numbers.. or close to their more established German 3 counterparts if the variants are seen side by side. By that I mean.. ATS Sedan/Coupe sales vs C-Class Sedan/coupe sales not including variations on options not avail. Of course that is a stretch to justify what I'm saying, but the reality is again that Cadillac is the culprit and reason for their lower sales.. and they alone could have made it easier on themselves by:

1) At time of intro of ATS, calling it the CTS. The CTS in 2012.. was already in its 4th MY. The could have called the ATS the new 2013 CTS, just released it early.

2) The CTS should have been the STS. It is for all intent.. the STS. Its price and position reflect that it is sitting in the STS's old spot in fact..

3) Both vehicles should have launched with pre-existing variants from get go.. considering they are the under-dog. The new (CTS)ATS took 2 years for the Coupe to arrive. WTF? It should have followed deep on the foots steps of the previous entry level vehicle.. and because of that, again, it would have been seen as the NEW CTS, with damn near the same price and no sticker shock for returning buyers. In truth.. there wouldn't have been much "Size Shock" considering the ATS really isn't substantially smaller internally than the Gen2 CTS. VSeries of both should have launched 6 months ago.

4) CTS is the STS replacement.. but we also have the XTS on the same lot. A vehicle that was said to be the DTS/STS replacement.. Price point and all. The CTS and XTS are basically the same price. But peep this... the XTS has a few advantages that the CTS doesn't.. AWD in a 410HP (basically a V8 replacement) TTV6. Its larger.. it is to the traditional car buyer.. eff luxury car buyer..ANY car buyer due to its size.. considered a FLAGSHIP. What makes it an issue is that this FLAGSHIP (whether enthusiasts want to admit it or not) that is larger.. has basically the same power... and can be had in AWD.. costs the same as the CTS.. basically considered the lower offering for old reasons and new reasons pertaining to size and amenities.

Look at it like this.. If I told U that the 5series and 7series were the same price... which one would U feel more confident that U were driving in the "Top of the Line" BMW at a bargain?

5) Back to variants. U can not sell a ATS convertible to a luxury buyer looking for a convertible and trying to choose from a 3/4series (BMW doesn't break sales of these out) vert.. an C-Class vert... or an A5 vert.. or IS ver.. or G37 vert.

That one HUGE. That means that Cmicasa the GREAT... lover of all things GM.. lover of all things Cadillac.. lover of the ATS.. can't buy an ATS if he needed and wanted a entry level convertible. CAN'T, CAN'T, CAN'T, CAN'T!!!

Same thing for the CTS.

6) Cadillac sales overall.. are gonna remain down while the public settles in with is 180 of the old Cadillac perception of floaty barges. Quite frankly GM has the money and time to get this ship in order. Technically the brand is printing them money even with the new projects on Alpha and Omega because the MINT called Escalade which is begot by the Denali.. which is Begot by the Yukon/XL.. which is Begot by the Tahoe/Suburban.. which is Begot by the Silvy/Sierra, and the SRX. It isn't a Equinox or Terrain platform mate, but it share about 70% of their DNA.. It has sold in numbers that are extremely admirable... 54K sales in '14, and already 25K this year.. that's the amount the MKX sold all of last year. And idiots on the enthusiasts forum want it gone. Its paying the bills along with the Escalade. The problem that Cadillac has is that for some reason it doesn't duplicate the bread and butter vehicles. There should have been a Lambda SRX-L out 3 years ago. SORRY to the enthusiasts. It should have been differentiated.. maybe with AWD only and a V8 or TTV6. There should have been a car based SRX-m debuting with the ATS in 2012.

Things is that the Europeans aren't playing by the rules of luxury anymore. We have PORSCHE pushing a four-door sedan and two CUVs..

BMW is NOT the world's Ultimate Driving Machine anymore.. On top of that their non-enthusiast line up consists of 5 CUVs and the bitchiest lil car on the market, the i3. I mean this car is more bitchy than the Prius. I can't think of a better way to describe it other than using the word FAGGY (That's not a sexuality comment either.. but a descriptor of the perception in words.. )

Audi... the same as above sans the i3

Mercedes is ALL OVER THE MAP. In fact I would say that if not for the upper echelon of their trims.. Benz could be described as near luxury.. on par with Buick and Lincoln. I'm serious. The S-Class and the AMG models.. OK and the CLS make them legitimate, but their lower offerings are visually, and realistically no more dynamic than a Buick, Volvo, or Lincoln. $h!.. I could, and some will scold me for saying it.. park my IMPALA LTZ (top of the line) next to an E350 without badges and I bet U good money after an unknowing person perused in and out.. they would come back sating that the Chevy.. a EFFIN Chevy was as nice or better than the E-Class

June 13, 2015

Lincoln certainly isn't beyond 'saving' - look at how far mercedes came from the horrible state they were in the 70s & 80s and were building basically junk.

Not to mention Audi and VW too, and of course Cadillac has a significant head start on Lincoln. Trouble is, they don't seem to be addressing relevant product (CUV) nearly fast enough. The leave their customers with only a solid large new SUV and a tired old one. Nothing in between.

People like repeating that cliche about Lincoln, yet ignore how Lincoln is slowly becoming a success story as well. As new MKX fills lots this summer, which is an excellent product, their sales currently at 9K plus, will be above 10K / month easily. Not a lot of new product to show, but much of it relevant. By the end of next year, they will have launched the updated MKZ, brand new Conti and all new alum Navi. The Conti alone will return long lost customers as well as new ones, something the ugly MKS could never do. All combined, along with a new Navi, and sales should be significantly better. And it will be about that time they shed another slow seller with the MKT, and bring a far more relevant CUV with the Aviator. And as we are all talking about how Lincoln has come so far, so fast, they should be introducing even more exciting concepts that will be based on their phase II redevelopment. And the combined excitement and attention will only motivate more sales, and to hyperv6's remarks about volume, it will be what carries Lincoln for the next few years. In 5 years, let alone 10, who knows where either brand will be. So yeah, if you believe Lincoln can't be saved, then you are looking right past the obvious facts of what is going on, to make some cute remark.

Meanwhile, this thread is about Cadillac's struggle to move upmarket with products that are solid, but customers are having a hard time weening themselves from low previous prices, combined with massive discounts. Last year CTS needed $9,200 of incentives on average, and customers get used to that. When you scale that back, sales drop like they did this year. What then can we expect for the new CT6, if it looks like a CTS, yet costs much more? Time will tell.

This article carries on where the one below started earlier this year,

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/02/cadillac-has-hard-time-selling-ats-and.html

"Cadillac’s ATS and CTS aren’t too good at convincing people to choose them over German premium sedans. Dealers throughout the United States are offering significant discounts on the two sedans. In some cases, the 2014 Cadillac ATS is offered with up to $12,000 off a sticker price that starts at about $33,215.

The situation is similar with the 2014 CTS, which is offered with a discount of up to $17,500 from the starting price of $45,345. According to a report from Reuters, dealers have been asking for Cadillac incentives for a long time.

What this says is Cadillac’s strategy to rival BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the luxury sedan market doesn’t appear to be working. Drivers of German luxury sedans aren’t willing to switch to Cadillac."

I gotta say that being able to buy a $45K vehicle for $28K is a helluva bargain.. but its the norm within an Industry that U have no knowledge of apparently. This is most likely to U cheering on and believing that a slightly plusher Fusion or Taurus.. is the epitome of the segment.

$17,500??? I kno where I could get a $50,000 discount on a 2014 S63AMG 4matic.. that's a fact

I understand the CTS to be a fine automobile from Cadillac. Never, ever, have I said it was not, nor have I ever suggested it was less than a Ford equivalent, which does not really exist anyway. At least not is size and architecture. And although my Father retired from Cadillac and I was raised a GM kid and have driven in more GM vehicles than I have Ford, I wish GM no ill and cheer for them whenever I can. But….. I must admit taking an ounce of pleasure in providing this information, right smack in the face, of the same few people who trash Lincoln’s ever step, every chance they get, which is legendary. My point? One size, shape or approach does not fit all. GM needs to better understand it’s customer, and adjust it’s whole approach to that demographic. If that means a bit more conventional and desirable plush-ness in a luxury sedan that also differentiates itself from the world, rather than duplicate it, then so be it. And since every other luxury automaker seems to have prioritized offering the customer what they want, CUV’s, then Caddy is now behind the 8-ball there. People want them so bad they are settling for that tired excuse of a small CUV, and GM is happy to keep lowering the price of it through incentives.

Come on Caddy, you can do better.

PErsonally I don;t need to hear your GM origins anymore.. Its like a white guy saying he's not racist because he knu a Black kid when he growing up...

New forum. New introductions.

hyperv6 · June 13, 2015

Nothing is beyond saving with the right support and funding. The question is will Ford be willing to give them the support and the patients. to get the job done. Here too Lincoln does not need to be number one in the segment as they could profit handsomely with the sales of these models even in low volumes.

Lets hope for Lincolns sake the people that are not the problem win as they did at Cadillac.

The reality is if Ford wants to save Lincoln they need to jump beyond the Taurus based models and move to making their own products in AWD and RWD. They also need their own engines or at the very least their own tunes of the Ford engines. You can continue to do as GM did in the 90's.

Lincoln can fail even vs. Buick once they move to the Avenir. Yes it will reach production. As pf now the Continental is all show and not much else. They need to finish the program fully not just go part way. This is the equivalent of a 90's STS.

Since we brought up Buick this is an added dimension too here. GM has this brand and can cover a segment that Cadillac does not even have to address. While the others have to be all to everyone GM can focus these two divisions to cover different areas and not have to prostitute themselves to segments they do not want or need to address. While they are two divisions they are two tools GM can use effectively. No longer do they need to drive a tack with a sledge hammer as they also have the proper size for each job.

smk4565 · June 13, 2015

1) At time of intro of ATS, calling it the CTS. The CTS in 2012.. was already in its 4th MY. The could have called the ATS the new 2013 CTS, just released it early.

2) The CTS should have been the STS. It is for all intent.. the STS. Its price and position reflect that it is sitting in the STS's old spot in fact..

3) Both vehicles should have launched with pre-existing variants from get go.. considering they are the under-dog. The new (CTS)ATS took 2 years for the Coupe to arrive. WTF? It should have followed deep on the foots steps of the previous entry level vehicle.. and because of that, again, it would have been seen as the NEW CTS, with damn near the same price and no sticker shock for returning buyers. In truth.. there wouldn't have been much "Size Shock" considering the ATS really isn't substantially smaller internally than the Gen2 CTS. VSeries of both should have launched 6 months ago.

4) CTS is the STS replacement.. but we also have the XTS on the same lot. A vehicle that was said to be the DTS/STS replacement.. Price point and all. The CTS and XTS are basically the same price. But peep this... the XTS has a few advantages that the CTS doesn't.. AWD in a 410HP (basically a V8 replacement) TTV6. Its larger.. it is to the traditional car buyer.. eff luxury car buyer..ANY car buyer due to its size.. considered a FLAGSHIP. What makes it an issue is that this FLAGSHIP (whether enthusiasts want to admit it or not) that is larger.. has basically the same power... and can be had in AWD.. costs the same as the CTS.. basically considered the lower offering for old reasons and new reasons pertaining to size and amenities.

Look at it like this.. If I told U that the 5series and 7series were the same price... which one would U feel more confident that U were driving in the "Top of the Line" BMW at a bargain?

5) Back to variants. U can not sell a ATS convertible to a luxury buyer looking for a convertible and trying to choose from a 3/4series (BMW doesn't break sales of these out) vert.. an C-Class vert... or an A5 vert.. or IS ver.. or G37 vert.

That one HUGE. That means that Cmicasa the GREAT... lover of all things GM.. lover of all things Cadillac.. lover of the ATS.. can't buy an ATS if he needed and wanted a entry level convertible. CAN'T, CAN'T, CAN'T, CAN'T!!!

Same thing for the CTS.

I agree with all those points, using CTS and STS as the names would have made more sense. Especially since it would leave the ATS name available for a 1-series competitor in the future if they wanted to go that route. Since they are going to a new naming scheme, I guess this problem will be resolved.

I'll go one step further on the CTS's price increase for sticker shock and add that it went from a standard V6 to a standard I-4. And for returning Cadillac buyers that had a DTS or STS, they are probably used to a V8. So not only might there be some sticker shock, they may also wonder only a 4-cylinder, when to most 60+ age buyers 4-cylinder means economy car, not luxury car.

I remember when the first generation CTS was out there was talk of a coupe or convertible. So that has been on the radar since 2005 or 2006, and they should have had more body styles in the works as they were developing the Alpha platform sedans.

As a minor correction, no C-class convertible yet, but will be in 2016. E-class has a convertible though, where the others in that segment do not offer.

Edited June 13, 2015 by smk4565

June 13, 2015

Nothing is beyond saving with the right support and funding. The question is will Ford be willing to give them the support and the patients. to get the job done. Here too Lincoln does not need to be number one in the segment as they could profit handsomely with the sales of these models even in low volumes.

Lets hope for Lincolns sake the people that are not the problem win as they did at Cadillac.

The reality is if Ford wants to save Lincoln they need to jump beyond the Taurus based models and move to making their own products in AWD and RWD. They also need their own engines or at the very least their own tunes of the Ford engines. You can continue to do as GM did in the 90's.

Lincoln can fail even vs. Buick once they move to the Avenir. Yes it will reach production. As pf now the Continental is all show and not much else. They need to finish the program fully not just go part way. This is the equivalent of a 90's STS.

Since we brought up Buick this is an added dimension too here. GM has this brand and can cover a segment that Cadillac does not even have to address. While the others have to be all to everyone GM can focus these two divisions to cover different areas and not have to prostitute themselves to segments they do not want or need to address. While they are two divisions they are two tools GM can use effectively. No longer do they need to drive a tack with a sledge hammer as they also have the proper size for each job.

Good points.

Something to consider though, is that Ford premium trim products are already equivalent to Buick, if not beyond. That eliminates brand redundancy. So Lincoln can then be free to move farther upscale, as well as straddle the lower end of premium trim plus for needed volume.

One thing for certain, luxury segment is growing, and in all directions, not just upward, but horizontal as well as downward, as manufacturers seek to build their own volumes. And there is no single business model or approach that is best. Today's luxury customers are vastly different than just a few decades ago. As a Lincoln fan, it is exciting to see just where they are going with it. People who think they are done, are about as short sighted as one can be in this industry.

Cmicasa the Great · June 13, 2015

Nothing is beyond saving with the right support and funding. The question is will Ford be willing to give them the support and the patients. to get the job done. Here too Lincoln does not need to be number one in the segment as they could profit handsomely with the sales of these models even in low volumes.

Lets hope for Lincolns sake the people that are not the problem win as they did at Cadillac.

The reality is if Ford wants to save Lincoln they need to jump beyond the Taurus based models and move to making their own products in AWD and RWD. They also need their own engines or at the very least their own tunes of the Ford engines. You can continue to do as GM did in the 90's.

Lincoln can fail even vs. Buick once they move to the Avenir. Yes it will reach production. As pf now the Continental is all show and not much else. They need to finish the program fully not just go part way. This is the equivalent of a 90's STS.

Since we brought up Buick this is an added dimension too here. GM has this brand and can cover a segment that Cadillac does not even have to address. While the others have to be all to everyone GM can focus these two divisions to cover different areas and not have to prostitute themselves to segments they do not want or need to address. While they are two divisions they are two tools GM can use effectively. No longer do they need to drive a tack with a sledge hammer as they also have the proper size for each job.

Good points.

Something to consider though, is that Ford premium trim products are already equivalent to Buick, if not beyond. That eliminates brand redundancy. So Lincoln can then be free to move farther upscale, as well as straddle the lower end of premium trim plus for needed volume.

One thing for certain, luxury segment is growing, and in all directions, not just upward, but horizontal as well as downward, as manufacturers seek to build their own volumes. And there is no single business model or approach that is best. Today's luxury customers are vastly different than just a few decades ago. As a Lincoln fan, it is exciting to see just where they are going with it. People who think they are done, are about as short sighted as one can be in this industry.

Buick is a redundant brand to Chevy. But it is a redundant brand in the same way that GMC is to Chevy that sells 1.2 Million vehicles globally. The thing is that Chevy LTZ is as well done as Ford Titanium/Limited. Buick is above both in most situations including perception.. and I really feel as tho it is in the same level as Lincoln, just currently more viable. Put it to U like this... if Ford still had Jag/LR.. I'm pretty sure that Mulally would have killed Lincoln when he was considering it due to Lincoln only selling 94K last year ..., meaning the same CTS and ATS U try and talk $h! about constantly came within 33K of outselling the entire Lincoln brand

throw in the XTS,... and they actually came within 10k of Lincoln. 3 cars.. vs MKZ, MKS, MKC, MKT, MKX, and Nav

Edited June 13, 2015 by Cmicasa the Great

Drew Dowdell · June 13, 2015

No.. As a Buick owner, the LTZ Chevys are not equal to the Buick models. The Encore vs. the Trax is a great example. There is about a $3k difference between those cars and it is reflected well in the content and execution.

smk4565 · June 13, 2015

Buick is not on par with Lincoln. Buick Verano starts around $23k the Lacrosse is like $33k. The top Buick is cheaper than the MKZ.

Cmicasa the Great · June 13, 2015

Buick is not on par with Lincoln. Buick Verano starts around $23k the Lacrosse is like $33k. The top Buick is cheaper than the MKZ.

Irrelevant.. Pricing is not indicative of quality. The CLA AMG is $50k and a POS.

oldshurst442 · June 13, 2015

Cadillac should build a mid-size crossover on Alpha to compete with the X5 and GLE-class. Something in between where the SRX is now and the Escalade.

Cadillac should also make ATS and CTS convertibles. They are going to make a Camaro convertible, so clearly the platform is capable. I think convertibles add a bit of cool factor to a brand, it would help Cadillac's image.

Especially when Cadillac has a rich history with topless cars.

oldshurst442 · June 13, 2015

Nothing is beyond saving with the right support and funding. The question is will Ford be willing to give them the support and the patients. to get the job done. Here too Lincoln does not need to be number one in the segment as they could profit handsomely with the sales of these models even in low volumes.

Lets hope for Lincolns sake the people that are not the problem win as they did at Cadillac.

The reality is if Ford wants to save Lincoln they need to jump beyond the Taurus based models and move to making their own products in AWD and RWD. They also need their own engines or at the very least their own tunes of the Ford engines. You can continue to do as GM did in the 90's.

Lincoln can fail even vs. Buick once they move to the Avenir. Yes it will reach production. As pf now the Continental is all show and not much else. They need to finish the program fully not just go part way. This is the equivalent of a 90's STS.

Since we brought up Buick this is an added dimension too here. GM has this brand and can cover a segment that Cadillac does not even have to address. While the others have to be all to everyone GM can focus these two divisions to cover different areas and not have to prostitute themselves to segments they do not want or need to address. While they are two divisions they are two tools GM can use effectively. No longer do they need to drive a tack with a sledge hammer as they also have the proper size for each job.

why no one has responded to your posts is beyond me.

Very well thought and logical your point of view is.

oldshurst442 · June 14, 2015

Well one has to step back and take in the whole picture here on what is going on.

As pointed out by several we have less models and higher price but we need to adjust more to see even more what is going on here.

We all knew going in that Cadillac is not longer expected to run high volumes. They are now a lower volume and higher profit vehicle. With this said even with selling less cars odds are GM is seeing more profit vs. the heavily discounted older lower price models that sold in a little higher numbers.

We also have to consider with the lower volumes higher percentage drops and gains are cars in the hundreds not thousands of units as high volume units see.

We also are seeing some very good cars but lets face it GM has made it clear that these are not the cars that those at GM with vision want. The folks who are not the problem have finally convinced GM to put the money up to make these cars just what they need to be and that is better than the others. Not just bench mark the others but set the bench mark. So while we now have $12 Billion dollars to spend it will take 5 years to see the results in the product. We will see improvements in dealers and marketing in the mean time.

As for who is number one, two three or even four it matters little as once GM gets better product going they will maintain and grow sales slowly. There is not going to be any rocket to number one here. Image and trust has to be earned one model at time and even over a series of products. While this is going on the profit per unit sold will be as high or higher than the most profitable pick up trucks out there. Even sitting number 4 in sales GM will realize around 50% of their sedan profits from the low volume of Cadillac's they will sell.

That is why they have invested so much. Cadillac is and will be a car only a select few will be able to afford and buy. It no longer will be for the Faux rich that like to pretend. GM will make inroads and continue to make more money even at these lower volumes here. There is really little risk here for the most part as with this segment you have room to take these risk at these prices.

For the most part it is not much more expensive to make a car like the CTS over a Malibu from an engineering stand point. Now it does hold more content and better quality materials but the development is not much more and even then much of the technology trickles down and gets paid off with all the models it makes its way to.

Now for a dose of reality on Lincoln they were on their way out. Mulally if he had his way would have had them gone with their one brand thinking. with the way sales have been it was a case where it made sense till those inside Ford showed the profit potential of a Lincoln brand if done right. At this point those who saved Lincoln have preserved the brand and are working like Cadillac used to do and are working to make the best cars they can out of lesser platforms. They like GM of the past are working their platforms up and not down as GM is now doing. This ass backwards approach is not ideal but it is all they have for now. They too are wanting Ford to go all in like GM did for Cadillac but at this point that is not going to happen. So for now they will do the best they can with the Taurus transformed into a Continental and a Mustang transformed into some kind of coupe. They will supplement with the Ford SUV line much as Cadillac has been doing for profits. If they can prove their worth they may get the money they need but they will be years behind and at best challenging Lexus and Acura. They will make money but not as much per unit. They will have to rely on higher volumes and be the luxury of the masses. The Continental will replace the 300 as the favorite of the Bingo hall gray hairs and not the movers and shakers of Wall Street.

I do wish Ford would fund Lincoln properly as they are pissing away a chance to do it right. Some there have learned from GM and want to follow the same path. Too bad there is not enough of them.

As for the big picture just step back and look at all that is going on and that will be happening and it all will work out. These cars will be bringing in good money got GM and never have to be out selling Benz or BMW. Now as they do gain more market with time and new product it will be all the more.

The bottom line here for Cadillac is not volume but profits. Read the profits and follow the money. GM is selling Cadillac's like Cadillac's used to be sold not like high volume fancy Chevys. But I see some of you already understand this and a few others really have no clue. The industry is no longer one product plan fits all in the 80's and 90's. GM tired that and we know that worked out.

This is another good post. Actually its before the other one I congratulated you on.

Like I said, why nobody responded to you to agree with you is baffling.

El Kabong · June 14, 2015

I liked them as well... I was just tired of the thread at that point. He pretty much nailed it.

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

Here again you have to step back and look at the big picture.

Ford because of past management is trying the one brand fits all stategy and while it saves money it is almost as bad as GM was having too many divisions. To make it in todays market you need at least two different brands. Selling a Ford as a Premium package is not akin to selling it as a Lexus or even an Acura.

As for Buick it is premature to really compare them yet as Buick really has not seen much in the way of new post chapter 11 product at this point. The cars they have are the oldest in GM's fleet on some of the oldest platforms accept the Encore. We will soon see new platforms with a new Lacrosse and Regal in the next year or two. A new Verano on a new platform and a slew of new SUV models that really have been the basis for Buick. GM could afford to let Buick rest on China and just so minor work here as they had their plates full with Chevy and Cadillac. I also expect the Buick Omega to appear soon too.

Also you have to factor in that they had to move Cadillac up before they could move Buick to replace them.

Now while Chevy and Buick share some things the Buicks do offer many things you can not find on a Chevy option list and the differences will grow even more.

While Ford is selling a Fusion AWS for over 40K GM is trying to do it with a GS Buick and leave the LTZ Malibu to clean up with a lower price.

It will take time to do but the Three car strategy at GM will work well once they get all the divisions done. Also the pressure of Buick is offset with Opel, China and now Holden.

We will continue to see some cross over at Buick and Chevy but it too will fade with time.

As for Ford doing it all under one brand on about two FWD and one RWD platform. It makes good solid economic sense but the problem there is it make horrible marketing sense. In the end people have always seen Ford as a value brand and it too will be like VW when they tried to sell the Phaeton and fail as that is just not their segment. Lets face it now the Top Taurus is nearly $50K. What would you buy a Ford for 50K or one of the real Luxury brands for the same price or even less in some cases. That is why we see some of the cheaper models of the top luxury brands as they can discontent a car and sell on image and not so much on options.

To grasp this you have to look at all angles as this is a complex deal and not just one simple view can deal with all that is going on.

The bottom line is there is a lot of money to be made in the luxury segment. People with means will pay a lot of money for a car with image. Those who want to pretend they have the means are now willing to pay for the cheaper versions of these cars and while the profits are less it will reap some volume sales. The key is not to over sell the cheaper models. Porsche did so in the 70's and 80's and suffered some damage to their image. When they gave us the 924 and 944 it made Porsche a brand of the masses and not so exclusive as it once was. They learned from this and now even on their cheaper models they are still expensive and not for everyone. Care must be taken to regulate the brand as if you sell too many to the wrong segment of people you can do major damage to your brand image.

Harley Davidson did this too in the 70's under AMF. It nearly put them under.

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

Thanks olds hurt 442.

Just calling it as I see it.

Too often too many micro analyze and leave out much of what is really going on. You have to look at the big picture of what we have, where we are going and where the market is at or will bear.

It is all about controlling cost and maximizing profits. The strong companies can afford to invest and will reap the profits with these investment. On the other hand those like FCA are begging for a dance partner and unless they have something of value to share they may have to sit out the next dance and may never dance again. They are in real trouble and any company is one major mistake away from the same thing. Even VW if they fail to keep up volume they will struggle with all the brands they have.

Edited June 14, 2015 by hyperv6

smk4565 · June 14, 2015

Buick is not on par with Lincoln. Buick Verano starts around $23k the Lacrosse is like $33k. The top Buick is cheaper than the MKZ.

Irrelevant.. Pricing is not indicative of quality. The CLA AMG is $50k and a POS.

I never said anything about quality of product, solely price and place in market. The Buick LaCrosse and Lincoln MKZ could compete with each other based on similar price, but the 2 brands don't compete with each other. Which Lincoln competes with the Verano or Regal? Which Buick directly competes with the Navigator? Does Buick have a 400 hp Lincoln Continental fighter?

Buick is not on par with Lincoln. Buick is not a luxury brand. Lincoln is a luxury brand, just not a very good one.

smk4565 · June 14, 2015

Even VW if they fail to keep up volume they will struggle with all the brands they have.

Volkswagen posted a $12.36 billion profit in 2014. I don't think they are struggling.

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

Read all the words you quoted.

If they fail to keep the volume with all their brands it can come back to bite them.

Do I need to put it in red and enlarge print size too?

Big picture brother.

June 14, 2015

Here again you have to step back and look at the big picture.

Ford because of past management is trying the one brand fits all stategy and while it saves money it is almost as bad as GM was having too many divisions. To make it in todays market you need at least two different brands. Selling a Ford as a Premium package is not akin to selling it as a Lexus or even an Acura.

As for Buick it is premature to really compare them yet as Buick really has not seen much in the way of new post chapter 11 product at this point. The cars they have are the oldest in GM's fleet on some of the oldest platforms accept the Encore. We will soon see new platforms with a new Lacrosse and Regal in the next year or two. A new Verano on a new platform and a slew of new SUV models that really have been the basis for Buick. GM could afford to let Buick rest on China and just so minor work here as they had their plates full with Chevy and Cadillac. I also expect the Buick Omega to appear soon too.

Also you have to factor in that they had to move Cadillac up before they could move Buick to replace them.

Now while Chevy and Buick share some things the Buicks do offer many things you can not find on a Chevy option list and the differences will grow even more.

While Ford is selling a Fusion AWS for over 40K GM is trying to do it with a GS Buick and leave the LTZ Malibu to clean up with a lower price.

It will take time to do but the Three car strategy at GM will work well once they get all the divisions done. Also the pressure of Buick is offset with Opel, China and now Holden.

We will continue to see some cross over at Buick and Chevy but it too will fade with time.

As for Ford doing it all under one brand on about two FWD and one RWD platform. It makes good solid economic sense but the problem there is it make horrible marketing sense. In the end people have always seen Ford as a value brand and it too will be like VW when they tried to sell the Phaeton and fail as that is just not their segment. Lets face it now the Top Taurus is nearly $50K. What would you buy a Ford for 50K or one of the real Luxury brands for the same price or even less in some cases. That is why we see some of the cheaper models of the top luxury brands as they can discontent a car and sell on image and not so much on options.

To grasp this you have to look at all angles as this is a complex deal and not just one simple view can deal with all that is going on.

The bottom line is there is a lot of money to be made in the luxury segment. People with means will pay a lot of money for a car with image. Those who want to pretend they have the means are now willing to pay for the cheaper versions of these cars and while the profits are less it will reap some volume sales. The key is not to over sell the cheaper models. Porsche did so in the 70's and 80's and suffered some damage to their image. When they gave us the 924 and 944 it made Porsche a brand of the masses and not so exclusive as it once was. They learned from this and now even on their cheaper models they are still expensive and not for everyone. Care must be taken to regulate the brand as if you sell too many to the wrong segment of people you can do major damage to your brand image.

Harley Davidson did this too in the 70's under AMF. It nearly put them under.

So using your logic, Ford would prosper better with at least one more brand that can then alleviate them from having to sell premium trim.

How do you figure?

smk4565 · June 14, 2015

Read all the words you quoted.

If they fail to keep the volume with all their brands it can come back to bite them.

Do I need to put it in red and enlarge print size too?

Big picture brother.

VW sold 10.1 million cars last year, more than every other car maker except Toyota who had 10.2 million. So VW doesn't have a volume problem either. Why would their volume magically go away? Bentley, Audi, Porsche sales are all rising, that is where the profit is made. Even if VW lost 3 million sales, they are still bigger than Ford. I think they'll be okay.

June 14, 2015

Read all the words you quoted.

If they fail to keep the volume with all their brands it can come back to bite them.

Do I need to put it in red and enlarge print size too?

Big picture brother.

VW sold 10.1 million cars last year, more than every other car maker except Toyota who had 10.2 million. So VW doesn't have a volume problem either. Why would their volume magically go away? Bentley, Audi, Porsche sales are all rising, that is where the profit is made. Even if VW lost 3 million sales, they are still bigger than Ford. I think they'll be okay.

Bentley, Audi and Porsche sales combined are not even 2 million annual. Without pulling out a calculator, I am guessing the volume of VW exceeds the others combined in profit.

Cmicasa the Great · June 14, 2015

Buick is not on par with Lincoln. Buick Verano starts around $23k the Lacrosse is like $33k. The top Buick is cheaper than the MKZ.

Irrelevant.. Pricing is not indicative of quality. The CLA AMG is $50k and a POS.

I never said anything about quality of product, solely price and place in market. The Buick LaCrosse and Lincoln MKZ could compete with each other based on similar price, but the 2 brands don't compete with each other. Which Lincoln competes with the Verano or Regal? Which Buick directly competes with the Navigator? Does Buick have a 400 hp Lincoln Continental fighter?

Buick is not on par with Lincoln. Buick is not a luxury brand. Lincoln is a luxury brand, just not a very good one.

The LaX competes with the MKZ or ES350 for that matter in all things except the Hybrid. For all intent the LaX is a downsized XTS.

The Regal is a sporty premium sedan... Just because Lincoln doesn't have one doesn't ill-legitimize the Regal as a premium vehicle.. I will give Lincoln Premium status, but that's about where I stand.

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

Wings It is what the public perceives.

While Ford is trying to do this with one brand nearly everyone else of the major names are doing it and doing it well with two names.

Toyota has Lexus, Nissan Infinity, Honda, Acura, GM Cadillac, VW, Audi ETC. All of these companies have a luxury brand and a value brand.

The Big Boys at Benz and BMW are trying go the other way. BMW does have Mini but all Benz really has is trucks. They are looking to down size some and go with smaller and discontented models to increase volumes. There is some risk involves as I pointed out as like Harley and Porsche found out.

Now Ford has two camps one that wanted one brand and one that wants to fix Lincoln. It is a risk but not as great as some think it is and if it is done right it could pay off handsomely even at low volumes. Some there get what GM is doing others don't.

An example of a company not going the premium brand has been Hyundai with their large sedan. While it has gotten great reviews it has not done as well or gotten as high a price as it could if it were set apart.

The Luxury divisions have to be set apart because of what they represent. They are excess, ego and image all wrapped up in a mechanical package. These cars have to deliver more options, more luxury more power, more of everything. The customer is trying to satisfy their image and show they are not the average person. Some really have the means and show it with these cars others like to pretend with a high lease payment. It is all about excess as no one really needs a car like this but as we all could get along well with the smallest 3 cylinder model from any brands and go the same places for a lot less. But it is the intangibles the others deliver that drive the lines. We could all get to work and the golf cause everyday just fine in a Sonic but your business friends would look at you and ask are things that bad?

The other 800 pound gorilla in the room is China. They are eating up luxury cars to the point they are even getting special longer models with larger back seats. They perceive name before anything else. To them a Ford and a Chevy is a commoners car but the other names hold reverence with them.

Now Ford could live with just Ford and I would not expect them to come close to failing with the one brand path but I do and many others believe they will leave a lot of money on the table. Luxury brands make up over half of the income in the car segment even with limited sales. Ford will lose a lot of sales as not many people will value a Premium Taurus as much as a Lincoln done right. The other key for them is they need to make Lincoln more then rebodied Taurus too.

It comes down to the points I outlined that customers value and perceive here to get that extra money. Ford is pulling up short as even Chevy could not take the Impala and make the kind of money they could with Cadillac done right. Even on the SUV models just look at how much people will pay for the Cadillac over GMC and Chevy.

The main reason for GMC is people will pay more but more for the fact they can sell trucks at any GM dealer in the world this way and not have to use the Chevy name. Right now it is this way here but I would not be surprised if GMC goes to over seas exports on some models at some point in the future. They will get some of their own models and this will make them hold greater value. Look for the jeep like Hummer Like model in the near future not shared with Chevy. They Also have a Granite of some kind coming as the name was just secured for use. Could this be the Jeep like offering?

Edited June 14, 2015 by hyperv6

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

Just let it go smk as you just don't get it.

The point is they have no volume issue because of the multiple brands they have bought. But if the auto market drops they will be left with excess greater than what GM had and will have to cut brands to survive. It is a risky move over the lesser way but they had the money to do it.

It is not a case of when but it. GM did this and did not adjust and it nearly killed them. The same could happen here if they do not keep company viable. If you have one or two brands you kill models if you own many brands and models you kill both. Killing a brand as we all know now is not popular and very damaging to a company's image even when done for the right reasons.

Read up on their strategy as it has been writing about extensively.

Edited June 14, 2015 by hyperv6

June 14, 2015

Wings It is what the public perceives.

While Ford is trying to do this with one brand nearly everyone else of the major names are doing it and doing it well with two names.

Toyota has Lexus, Nissan Infinity, Honda, Acura, GM Cadillac, VW, Audi ETC. All of these companies have a luxury brand and a value brand.

The Big Boys at Benz and BMW are trying go the other way. BMW does have Mini but all Benz really has is trucks. They are looking to down size some and go with smaller and discontented models to increase volumes. There is some risk involves as I pointed out as like Harley and Porsche found out.

Now Ford has two camps one that wanted one brand and one that wants to fix Lincoln. It is a risk but not as great as some think it is and if it is done right it could pay off handsomely even at low volumes. Some there get what GM is doing others don't.

An example of a company not going the premium brand has been Hyundai with their large sedan. While it has gotten great reviews it has not done as well or gotten as high a price as it could if it were set apart.

The Luxury divisions have to be set apart because of what they represent. They are excess, ego and image all wrapped up in a mechanical package. These cars have to deliver more options, more luxury more power, more of everything. The customer is trying to satisfy their image and show they are not the average person. Some really have the means and show it with these cars others like to pretend with a high lease payment. It is all about excess as no one really needs a car like this but as we all could get along well with the smallest 3 cylinder model from any brands and go the same places for a lot less. But it is the intangibles the others deliver that drive the lines. We could all get to work and the golf cause everyday just fine in a Sonic but your business friends would look at you and ask are things that bad?

The other 800 pound gorilla in the room is China. They are eating up luxury cars to the point they are even getting special longer models with larger back seats. They perceive name before anything else. To them a Ford and a Chevy is a commoners car but the other names hold reverence with them.

Now Ford could live with just Ford and I would not expect them to come close to failing with the one brand path but I do and many others believe they will leave a lot of money on the table. Luxury brands make up over half of the income in the car segment even with limited sales. Ford will lose a lot of sales as not many people will value a Premium Taurus as much as a Lincoln done right. The other key for them is they need to make Lincoln more then rebodied Taurus too.

It comes down to the points I outlined that customers value and perceive here to get that extra money. Ford is pulling up short as even Chevy could not take the Impala and make the kind of money they could with Cadillac done right. Even on the SUV models just look at how much people will pay for the Cadillac over GMC and Chevy.

The main reason for GMC is people will pay more but more for the fact they can sell trucks at any GM dealer in the world this way and not have to use the Chevy name. Right now it is this way here but I would not be surprised if GMC goes to over seas exports on some models at some point in the future. They will get some of their own models and this will make them hold greater value. Look for the jeep like Hummer Like model in the near future not shared with Chevy. They Also have a Granite of some kind coming as the name was just secured for use. Could this be the Jeep like offering?

Thanks hyper, but why did you ignore the fact they already have a luxury brand with Lincoln. The entire industry is looking to consolidate and minimize in every way, especially platforms. Ford is down to 6 I believe, and GM claims they are reducing down to 4. In this cut throat business, you need every saved redundant dollar you can save to stay relevant and profitable going forward. Lincoln sales finally starting to build, with minimal product in NA, but that is only part of their plan to build volumes, as China already has Ford execs excited over their success and placement there, as ales are already estimated at doubling NA sales as well in this first full year. What Ford did, and wisely, was to build their value brand first, while simultaneously building their premium trim levels. Lincoln got some attention with what they call phase I, that ended with the latest MKX launching currently, which is of course shared platforms. Phase II was given a green light by execs last December, as they road mapped upward with all new product and platforms that will allow more flexibility and higher cachet luxury. It all fits in to their 10 year plan to achieve true luxury status. And once there, Lincoln should be able to span entry level luxury volumes all the way up to where ever they want to go. As a Lincoln fan, I am loving the journey.

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

I am not ignoring they fact they have Lincoln. I am merely pointing out that their past leader was working to one brand and at the last second Lincoln got a reprieve. You were the one pointing out that they had a Taurus Premium package.

As it stands now Lincoln at best is as Buick Acura Challenger. The real money at low volumes are with the big boys. You can make money at the Buick level but you will have to live with higher volumes and lower profits per car accept the SUV models. If you want the money to flow at lower volumes with the cars you need to go big on price or not go at all.

Lincoln is entering a phase much where Cadillac was with the 90 STS and Eldorado. Nice cars but not enough for the top game. The middle ground at volume is very competitive today and will become even more difficult to turn a profit unless you can rely on China as Buick does and Opel and Holden to leverage out models.

The best thing to happen to Ford in along time was Mulally but the worst thing too was Mulally. I think Fields has a better feel for the market and product much like Reuss. They are very similar in their approach. Now I do not know if he has the supporting cast to help him accomplish what they need. Mark does have that as today it appears those where not the problem at GM are now taking command.

The real big factor here for Cadillac and Lincoln it will take some people with balls to approve the needed money and time to fix these divisions. GM has stepped up and I hope Ford goes all in if they expect to do it right. The thing is the results need to be measured as profit and not volume. Like so many here they mistake luxury as a race to sell more cars. It is all about making more money not volume. Volume can damage an image as we have seen in the past at Cadillac and Lincoln. I think some of the Euro MFG's tend to forget this at times.

The key to this segment is to own what not everyone else has. If grandma bingo player on SSI is driving your car odds are you are over selling your product. Benz is getting into this field and while they will realize short term profits on the cheaper models they must use care to protect their long prized icon status. If the car falls into hands of people without means then the image suffers.

People in these classes want their cars to represent who they are. Some rich are fine with a cheap beater but some like to show it and this is one way how. Same with a Rolex and other slap on icons.

Lincoln has a lot of work to do and it will be just as Cadillac painful at times. Cars like the Continental are not really where they want to be but it is a model on the past to redemption. It Is their XTS and compromise to buy time. Now as long as they build on this they can move up but it is yet to be determined how much higher they will climb. I still believe there is still a lot of opposition to keeping Lincoln so they may not get as much time or money as Cadillac has been afforded. To be honest if Cadillac continues to make a good profit it may save Lincoln. What better way to sway thinking than profits.

Well I am off to a car show and will continue this at a later time.

Edited June 14, 2015 by hyperv6

smk4565 · June 14, 2015

Just let it go smk as you just don't get it.

The point is they have no volume issue because of the multiple brands they have bought. But if the auto market drops they will be left with excess greater than what GM had and will have to cut brands to survive. It is a risky move over the lesser way but they had the money to do it.

It is not a case of when but it. GM did this and did not adjust and it nearly killed them. The same could happen here if they do not keep company viable. If you have one or two brands you kill models if you own many brands and models you kill both. Killing a brand as we all know now is not popular and very damaging to a company's image even when done for the right reasons.

Read up on their strategy as it has been writing about extensively.

GM's brands competed with each other. Pontiac competed with Chevy, GMC trucks compete with Chevy, Olds and Buick competed with each other. Saturn was all over the map, first as a small car, then as the Euro import fighter after Olds left. Saab was just a money loser.

VW brand makes about $700 per car. Audi $5,000, Porsche $19,000, Bentley and Lambo $23,000 or more. The 2 million luxury cars they sell a year are about two thirds of their profits. Plus their brands don't overlap like GM's did. They had all these brands back in 2008 when the auto market did collapse, and the European auto market collapsed too.

VW probably has the most well rounded lineup of any car maker. They have diesels and electrics from top to bottom, they are in countries all over the world, they have good small cars like the Golf, and lots of high margin luxury and sports cars.

smk4565 · June 14, 2015

Buick is not on par with Lincoln. Buick Verano starts around $23k the Lacrosse is like $33k. The top Buick is cheaper than the MKZ.

Irrelevant.. Pricing is not indicative of quality. The CLA AMG is $50k and a POS.

I never said anything about quality of product, solely price and place in market. The Buick LaCrosse and Lincoln MKZ could compete with each other based on similar price, but the 2 brands don't compete with each other. Which Lincoln competes with the Verano or Regal? Which Buick directly competes with the Navigator? Does Buick have a 400 hp Lincoln Continental fighter?

Buick is not on par with Lincoln. Buick is not a luxury brand. Lincoln is a luxury brand, just not a very good one.

The LaX competes with the MKZ or ES350 for that matter in all things except the Hybrid. For all intent the LaX is a downsized XTS.

The Regal is a sporty premium sedan... Just because Lincoln doesn't have one doesn't ill-legitimize the Regal as a premium vehicle.. I will give Lincoln Premium status, but that's about where I stand.

LaCrosse is priced lower than the Azera, Avalon, and Cadenza. On size and price, I would say those are the closest competitors really.

I could agree with Lincoln being a premium brand, they are just dressed up Fords.

June 14, 2015

hyper, if you believe Lincoln is no better than Buick, then how would you explain Ford's lessor premium trim that match or exceed Buick with,

Focus Titanium

Fusion Titanium

Taurus Titanium

Escape Titanium

Edge Titanium

Explorer Platinum

Flex Titanium

Expedition Platinum

F-150 Platinum

And real soon, SD Platinum to go with their many other premium trims.

So of all those premium trimmed Ford brand vehicles, which one does Buick exceed in terms of luxury and features? Because I don't see one. I do see a lot of Ford vehicles that offer luxury features that Buick still does not (self park, massaging seats, etc.)

Clearly then, Lincoln is above Buick.

surreal1272 · June 14, 2015

hyper, if you believe Lincoln is no better than Buick, then how would you explain Ford's lessor premium trim that match or exceed Buick with,

Focus Titanium

Fusion Titanium

Taurus Titanium

Escape Titanium

Edge Titanium

Explorer Platinum

Flex Titanium

Expedition Platinum

F-150 Platinum

And real soon, SD Platinum to go with their many other premium trims.

So of all those premium trimmed Ford brand vehicles, which one does Buick exceed in terms of luxury and features? Because I don't see one. I do see a lot of Ford vehicles that offer luxury features that Buick still does not (self park, massaging seats, etc.)

Clearly then, Lincoln is above Buick.

Pure opinion, once again, and you have completely missed the many excellent points that hyper6 made while you try to change the argument. Just mentioning Ford's Titanium and Platinum lines proves his point. Ford is trying to be Ford AND Lincoln with their Ford lineup while still selling Lincoln as a Lincoln. Under the definition of "redundancy" it says "see redundant" (credit Robin Williams for that last part).

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

Wings as it is Lincoln is no better than Buick. Now if they follow the path of Cadillac and move Lincoln up then they will have room for the premium Fords.

But the risk is you are just selling a fancy version of a car you already sell as a volume value leader. No real prestige or icon luxury status to the Ford line. It is just like selling a higher version of a Impala for $50K once you get to this price there are some much better names to choose from.

If given the choice many in this segment will lean to a lower models BMW or Audi vs. the Ford. A Taurus is a good car but it is still just a Taurus.

GM may have taken the same path if it had not been for China but I think that the three brand strategy has it's merits and may pay off in the long run. right now it is too hard to say what will happen as GM has shown so little of the future of Buick at this point. If the Avenir is a hint of the future then things could well pay off.

Ford would have almost been better off keeping Mercury and really making them matter. They left them to wither on the vine as they were really no better than any other Ford out there in the end.

By the way I got second place over all at the BOP show today. I beat out a really well restored 57 Starchief. I had him picked for best of show but he got third.

Edited June 14, 2015 by hyperv6

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

SMK I have said it as clearly as I can. I will just leave it here for you to ponder and sort out in your own head. I can lead you to the answer but I can't make you think.

June 14, 2015

hyper, if you believe Lincoln is no better than Buick, then how would you explain Ford's lessor premium trim that match or exceed Buick with,

Focus Titanium

Fusion Titanium

Taurus Titanium

Escape Titanium

Edge Titanium

Explorer Platinum

Flex Titanium

Expedition Platinum

F-150 Platinum

And real soon, SD Platinum to go with their many other premium trims.

So of all those premium trimmed Ford brand vehicles, which one does Buick exceed in terms of luxury and features? Because I don't see one. I do see a lot of Ford vehicles that offer luxury features that Buick still does not (self park, massaging seats, etc.)

Clearly then, Lincoln is above Buick.

Pure opinion, once again, and you have completely missed the many excellent points that hyper6 made while you try to change the argument. Just mentioning Ford's Titanium and Platinum lines proves his point. Ford is trying to be Ford AND Lincoln with their Ford lineup while still selling Lincoln as a Lincoln. Under the definition of "redundancy" it says "see redundant" (credit Robin Williams for that last part).

And you sir missed my ENTIRE point.

smk4565 · June 14, 2015

Let me make an example of why features don't necessarily equal luxury. The Kia Forte has a heated steering wheel and heated and cooled driver's seat. The BMW 5-series has the same features. Is the Forte on par with the 5-series? Hell no. You have to look at build quality of a car, quality of leather, carpets, wood, plastics, metal, etc.

Just because Ford Titanium has ventilated seats or self park, doesn't make it a luxury car. I don't think Buick is a luxury brand either, they are more of a premium trim on every model sort of brand. But Kia, Hyundai, and Toyota have "Limited" models, Chrysler has the "C" models, all these brands have premium trim levels.

The difference between those cars and the performance luxury cars is the engineering. I drove a 2010 or 2011 MKZ back when I was car shopping to see what it was like and I felt it drove like a Ford, handled like a Ford, the engine was noisy and unrefined. Yes it had THX sound, sunroof, heated and cooled seats, but I could tell it was built like junk. The rear drive performance luxury cars are engineered to a higher standard.

surreal1272 · June 14, 2015

hyper, if you believe Lincoln is no better than Buick, then how would you explain Ford's lessor premium trim that match or exceed Buick with,

Focus Titanium

Fusion Titanium

Taurus Titanium

Escape Titanium

Edge Titanium

Explorer Platinum

Flex Titanium

Expedition Platinum

F-150 Platinum

And real soon, SD Platinum to go with their many other premium trims.

So of all those premium trimmed Ford brand vehicles, which one does Buick exceed in terms of luxury and features? Because I don't see one. I do see a lot of Ford vehicles that offer luxury features that Buick still does not (self park, massaging seats, etc.)

Clearly then, Lincoln is above Buick.

Pure opinion, once again, and you have completely missed the many excellent points that hyper6 made while you try to change the argument. Just mentioning Ford's Titanium and Platinum lines proves his point. Ford is trying to be Ford AND Lincoln with their Ford lineup while still selling Lincoln as a Lincoln. Under the definition of "redundancy" it says "see redundant" (credit Robin Williams for that last part).

And you sir missed my ENTIRE point.

And which point was that? The one where you claim that Ford's upper trim is better than Buick, even though you have no proof of that? I covered that. You, however, have provided nothing to counter hyper6's claims, that have been proven in the past btw because "Ford One" was the plan years ago, which did not involve Lincoln.

Wings as it is Lincoln is no better than Buick. Now if they follow the path of Cadillac and move Lincoln up then they will have room for the premium Fords.

But the risk is you are just selling a fancy version of a car you already sell as a volume value leader. No real prestige or icon luxury status to the Ford line. It is just like selling a higher version of a Impala for $50K once you get to this price there are some much better names to choose from.

If given the choice many in this segment will lean to a lower models BMW or Audi vs. the Ford. A Taurus is a good car but it is still just a Taurus.

GM may have taken the same path if it had not been for China but I think that the three brand strategy has it's merits and may pay off in the long run. right now it is too hard to say what will happen as GM has shown so little of the future of Buick at this point. If the Avenir is a hint of the future then things could well pay off.

Ford would have almost been better off keeping Mercury and really making them matter. They left them to wither on the vine as they were really no better than any other Ford out there in the end.

By the way I got second place over all at the BOP show today. I beat out a really well restored 57 Starchief. I had him picked for best of show but he got third.

Again, well said hyper6. Excellent points on all fronts.

balthazar · June 14, 2015

Let me make an example of why features don't necessarily equal luxury. Hell no. You have to look at build quality of a car, quality of leather, carpets, wood, plastics, metal, etc.

This is exactly why the mercedes g-wagon isn't a luxury vehicle.

June 14, 2015

hyper, if you believe Lincoln is no better than Buick, then how would you explain Ford's lessor premium trim that match or exceed Buick with,

Focus Titanium

Fusion Titanium

Taurus Titanium

Escape Titanium

Edge Titanium

Explorer Platinum

Flex Titanium

Expedition Platinum

F-150 Platinum

And real soon, SD Platinum to go with their many other premium trims.

So of all those premium trimmed Ford brand vehicles, which one does Buick exceed in terms of luxury and features? Because I don't see one. I do see a lot of Ford vehicles that offer luxury features that Buick still does not (self park, massaging seats, etc.)

Clearly then, Lincoln is above Buick.

Pure opinion, once again, and you have completely missed the many excellent points that hyper6 made while you try to change the argument. Just mentioning Ford's Titanium and Platinum lines proves his point. Ford is trying to be Ford AND Lincoln with their Ford lineup while still selling Lincoln as a Lincoln. Under the definition of "redundancy" it says "see redundant" (credit Robin Williams for that last part).

And you sir missed my ENTIRE point.

And which point was that? The one where you claim that Ford's upper trim is better than Buick, even though you have no proof of that? I covered that. You, however, have provided nothing to counter hyper6's claims, that have been proven in the past btw because "Ford One" was the plan years ago, which did not involve Lincoln.

Wings as it is Lincoln is no better than Buick. Now if they follow the path of Cadillac and move Lincoln up then they will have room for the premium Fords.

But the risk is you are just selling a fancy version of a car you already sell as a volume value leader. No real prestige or icon luxury status to the Ford line. It is just like selling a higher version of a Impala for $50K once you get to this price there are some much better names to choose from.

If given the choice many in this segment will lean to a lower models BMW or Audi vs. the Ford. A Taurus is a good car but it is still just a Taurus.

GM may have taken the same path if it had not been for China but I think that the three brand strategy has it's merits and may pay off in the long run. right now it is too hard to say what will happen as GM has shown so little of the future of Buick at this point. If the Avenir is a hint of the future then things could well pay off.

Ford would have almost been better off keeping Mercury and really making them matter. They left them to wither on the vine as they were really no better than any other Ford out there in the end.

By the way I got second place over all at the BOP show today. I beat out a really well restored 57 Starchief. I had him picked for best of show but he got third.

Again, well said hyper6. Excellent points on all fronts.

I said equal to and in some cases better.

Focus on the equal to part and then see if you have an argument.

You don't.

I brought up valid points.

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

Wings I hit the point right square in the ass.

The point is that it becomes more difficult to sell a mass volume value brand at a high end price when you have so many other offerings with more prestigious names.

Not saying a Ford or Chevy is a bad car and yes you can load them up but they are still just Ford and Chevys and expensive ones at that to the mass unwashed public. You and I know the high end Ford is similar to the Lincoln but it is still not just a Ford.

Now look around at what is offered at a similar price from the other brands with luxury names and tell me what most average none loyal Ford and Chevy people will buy.

To me these models are ok to offer but they do not replace a true name that holds some luxury equity. To me these are just added income just as the Denali is to GMC. Good move to make money but it the Denali does not replace the Cadillac line.

You have made your point and I mine lets let the others have their say on this. My point is backed up buy what the market is doing so I have to be at least in the ball park of reality.

Lets make it simple Ford Luxury cars hold as much equity as the Hyundai Genesis. While good cars they are in no danger of replacing the iconic names known for Luxury. Even Honda learned this long ago with the American Public. They perceived Honda as a Economy brand and not a Luxury car. They renamed their brand Acura to set it apart even though they are much like Buick and just better appointed platforms that Honda uses. They understood there is a limit to what Americans will pay for a Honda. Again my VW example of the Phaeton It was very nice car but at a price no one would pay for a VW here.

Ford while a great brand has limits people will pay. If it is over $50K it had better have Shelby, GT or be a large SUV or truck if you expect many buyers.

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

In fact the latest Road and Track has a column buy Bob Lutz addressing this very subject. Price does not determine luxury Excess in all areas is Luxury. Excess in Technology, luxury, Comfort, power, Service and other areas. There are some one ton truck now at $80K and they are not luxury. They may have some excess in some areas but not luxury.

The term luxury is shifting each year with many different models. As with many thing the market is evolving.

surreal1272 · June 14, 2015

hyper, if you believe Lincoln is no better than Buick, then how would you explain Ford's lessor premium trim that match or exceed Buick with,

Focus Titanium

Fusion Titanium

Taurus Titanium

Escape Titanium

Edge Titanium

Explorer Platinum

Flex Titanium

Expedition Platinum

F-150 Platinum

And real soon, SD Platinum to go with their many other premium trims.

So of all those premium trimmed Ford brand vehicles, which one does Buick exceed in terms of luxury and features? Because I don't see one. I do see a lot of Ford vehicles that offer luxury features that Buick still does not (self park, massaging seats, etc.)

Clearly then, Lincoln is above Buick.

Pure opinion, once again, and you have completely missed the many excellent points that hyper6 made while you try to change the argument. Just mentioning Ford's Titanium and Platinum lines proves his point. Ford is trying to be Ford AND Lincoln with their Ford lineup while still selling Lincoln as a Lincoln. Under the definition of "redundancy" it says "see redundant" (credit Robin Williams for that last part).

You brought up nothing. You stated that you THINK that Ford's upper trim levels are equal or better than Buick but provided no proof of such. The burden of that proof is on you, not me. There is no validity when there is no proof.

June 14, 2015

Wings I hit the point right square in the ass.

The point is that it becomes more difficult to sell a mass volume value brand at a high end price when you have so many other offerings with more prestigious names.

Not saying a Ford or Chevy is a bad car and yes you can load them up but they are still just Ford and Chevys and expensive ones at that to the mass unwashed public. You and I know the high end Ford is similar to the Lincoln but it is still not just a Ford.

Now look around at what is offered at a similar price from the other brands with luxury names and tell me what most average none loyal Ford and Chevy people will buy.

To me these models are ok to offer but they do not replace a true name that holds some luxury equity. To me these are just added income just as the Denali is to GMC. Good move to make money but it the Denali does not replace the Cadillac line.

You have made your point and I mine lets let the others have their say on this. My point is backed up buy what the market is doing so I have to be at least in the ball park of reality.

Lets make it simple Ford Luxury cars hold as much equity as the Hyundai Genesis. While good cars they are in no danger of replacing the iconic names known for Luxury. Even Honda learned this long ago with the American Public. They perceived Honda as a Economy brand and not a Luxury car. They renamed their brand Acura to set it apart even though they are much like Buick and just better appointed platforms that Honda uses. They understood there is a limit to what Americans will pay for a Honda. Again my VW example of the Phaeton It was very nice car but at a price no one would pay for a VW here.

Ford while a great brand has limits people will pay. If it is over $50K it had better have Shelby, GT or be a large SUV or truck if you expect many buyers.

Of course it is more difficult to sell more Lincolns when your Ford premium trim is 90% there. That is why Lincoln is moving North in the coming years.

But selling those premium trim Ford's also allows you to eliminate redundant brands. That is my whole point. And a GREAT point. And it also allows you to grow as the largest brand in North America.

smk4565 · June 14, 2015

Ford needs a luxury brand, you can't scale one brand from mainstream all they up as Kia/Hyundai are proving. Luxury cars provide margins, every auto maker wants that.

Problem is Ford's luxury brand builds dressed up Fords and the consumers know it. Cadillac sort of has one foot in the RWD performance luxury philosophy and one foot in the build from the Chevy parts bin mentality. That is why Cadillac is more successful than Lincoln, but not as successful as the Germans. Simple as that.

hyperv6 · June 14, 2015

Or it leaves them at a disadvantage as they will not sell as many upper level Ford as they would if they had a well established and funded mid model.

The problem with Lincoln Is they have not had real luxury since the 40's, The 50's got diluted and by the 60's Cadillac and Lincoln went mass market and only hurt their image as they went on.

I would like to see Ford have Lincoln high up in the low volume higher profit segment and take them back to what they were around 1940. As for Ford offer the premium packages but even a middle brand would do better but Mercury was so damaged I am not sure that would work today, It would be almost as bad as doing Edsel again.

Other than Wings is there anyone here that considers a $50K plus Taurus a competitor to Lexus or Acura? Even the FWD Benz is more enticing than the Ford to the public. $329 a month and you can be a Benz owner. While that is not flatter to Benz in my eye it will make them some money but it needs to be closely managed. If it get out of hand it could damage the Brand.

The way I see it with the way the market is going. You have the volume brands, Then you have the mid level Luxury and then you have high end luxury The Big players are moving down to pick up some easy sales while the volume brands struggle to pick up the crumbs. I would not be shocked to see more companies move to a mid brand to pick up the low end luxury cars as to protect their high end cars.

In the end it is about making money and max profits not who sells the most in these higher segments. Volume is for value leaders. Value leaders don't get sprinkles.

I just think it is damn near impossible to do it with one brand anymore and getting difficult as the high end cars are more and more crossing into six figures. Benz tried to add to theirs with Maybach but I think they would have been better off doing a sub brand vs a higher one. Audi is one of the few doing the best on the low end but they still really lack that top end killer.

BMW is doing ok on mid and upper priced cars but their bottom end are just bla. They do get help with Mini but they try to reinvent the Mini much like Pizza Hut tried to reinvent the Pizza. It is difficult to when boxed in like they are to an image. At least sales are steady.

Hyundai Genesis is withering on the vine as it needs its own identity.

oldshurst442 · June 14, 2015

Ford needs a luxury brand, you can't scale one brand from mainstream all they up as Kia/Hyundai are proving. Luxury cars provide margins, every auto maker wants that.

Problem is Ford's luxury brand builds dressed up Fords and the consumers know it. Cadillac sort of has one foot in the RWD performance luxury philosophy and one foot in the build from the Chevy parts bin mentality. That is why Cadillac is more successful than Lincoln, but not as successful as the Germans. Simple as that.

HA! That is funny!

Cadillac is going away from that.

The XTS will be history, so is the SRX...now...what bones will the SRX have? Well, it might not be bespoke Cadillac trickled down to Chevy like the Alpha platform is....but then again...a new SRX might very well be on the Alpha platform...but then again...it might have Chevy bones first...like the 'Slade is....so what?

On another thread... you admitted to knowing that in Europe...both BMW and Mercedes use the 3 Series and 2 Series and the C Class and E Class and now with the CLA as mainstream and fleet vehicles...but I guess that is OK with you...but God forbid that GM does that with Cadillac and their lesser vehicles...

Oh...Audi...yeah..lets talk about Audi...actually...YOU tell ME what Audi platform is actually bespoke to Audi...a platform that is NOT used by Volkswagen or Seat...on the lesser vehicles of course...but then again...a Cayenne Porsche is also a VW...a Audi A8 is also a Volkswagen...I guess that is a pass because the VW versions are expensive as hell...but then again...Chevy Tahoes dont come cheap either...

You are a very bright poster, I like your thought process most of the time...what I dont appreciate is your logic regarding the Germans and giving them a pass while you criticize GM and Ford for basically doing the same thing...

But...'twas GM and Ford and Chryco that started out this type of business model to begin with... you know...shared platforms across their many brands...and this goes back to the 1950s, perfected in the 1960s, peaked in the 1970s and went downhill in the 1980s....only for the rest of the world in the 1980s to pick up where GM, Ford, Chrysler left off in the 1970s...

balthazar · June 14, 2015

Lincoln has had a choppy history WRT public reception & sales success. '46-51 and '58-60 had some solid backlash, but in between they redeemed themselves. The Continental Division of '55-57 made huge positive press, as did the Engel-directed '61s, but there were still missteps; Lincoln never got the transparent roofs that Merc & Ford did in '54-55, and the '61 body shell hung around too long in an era where body shells commonly lasted but 2 years. The Marks in the '70s were a bright spot, but the standard lines got incredibly blocky & ponderous. In the '80s, when Lincoln was making hay on Cadillac's putting the core Devilles on too-small FWD chassis's, they again could not make it last. The Navigator is another example- it made a big splash but once the Escalade appeared & got settled in, the Navigator fell farther & father behind. Not sure any other American brand has had such a ride thru time.

But there is one strong advantage. Lincoln isn't so much 'damaged' today as it is overlooked and, to a degree; forgotten. It's far easier to overcome a lack of a reputation than a poor one. Oh sure, internet car boards have plenty of bile to spill over Lincoln (in the occasional threads about such), but by & large the general consumer just hear much in the way of attention-getters from Lincoln. I'm not sure the Continental concept is the best move forward; I still think the MKR was Lincoln's pinnacle; it's post-war Zephyr if you will. Time will tell if Ford is moving the levers for another Lincoln upswing or not.

balthazar · June 14, 2015

But...'twas GM and Ford and Chryco that started out this type of business model to begin with... you know...shared platforms across their many brands...and this goes back to the 1950s, perfected in the 1960s, peaked in the 1970s and went downhill in the 1980s....only for the rest of the world in the 1980s to pick up where GM, Ford, Chrysler left off in the 1970s...

The 'platform' moniker is anachronistic when talking about the 1950s. The equivalent to 'platforms' in the '50-60s would be the car's chassis (or frame).

GM did not share chassis's in the 1950s. And in the '60s, it began with the intermediates; the full-size cars still ran proprietary chassis's.

It was the '70s when it blossomed to any measurable degree, tho the full-size cars still had mostly proprietary chassis's.

This can get confusing to the casual researcher when some cars, such as the "E-Body" (Eldorado, Toronado, Riviera) still had different chassis's in the '60s. That's what you have with Body-On-Frame construction.

However, body SHELL sharing at GM between Divisions (to a limited degree) goes back the early 1930s.

oldshurst442 · June 14, 2015

But...'twas GM and Ford and Chryco that started out this type of business model to begin with... you know...shared platforms across their many brands...and this goes back to the 1950s, perfected in the 1960s, peaked in the 1970s and went downhill in the 1980s....only for the rest of the world in the 1980s to pick up where GM, Ford, Chrysler left off in the 1970s...

The 'platform' moniker is anachronistic when talking about the 1950s. The equivalent to 'platforms' in the '50-60s would be the car's chassis (or frame).

GM did not share chassis's in the 1950s. And in the '60s, it began with the intermediates; the full-size cars still ran proprietary chassis's.

It was the '70s when it blossomed to any measurable degree, tho the full-size cars still had mostly proprietary chassis's.

This can get confusing to the casual researcher when some cars, such as the "E-Body" (Eldorado, Toronado, Riviera) still had different chassis's in the '60s. That's what you have with Body-On-Frame construction.

However, body SHELL sharing at GM between Divisions (to a limited degree) goes back the early 1930s.

Thanx for the clarification.

I kinda knew what you said, but I kinda didnt. That is why it came out the way it did. But Im glad you corrected me and shared your knowledge with all of us. This is why I like posting in here. There are many knowledgeable guys around at Cheers and Gears and this is why I keep posting in here. To learn...

I have some things to teach. But I have much much more to learn.

June 14, 2015

Or it leaves them at a disadvantage as they will not sell as many upper level Ford as they would if they had a well established and funded mid model.

The problem with Lincoln Is they have not had real luxury since the 40's, The 50's got diluted and by the 60's Cadillac and Lincoln went mass market and only hurt their image as they went on.

I would like to see Ford have Lincoln high up in the low volume higher profit segment and take them back to what they were around 1940. As for Ford offer the premium packages but even a middle brand would do better but Mercury was so damaged I am not sure that would work today, It would be almost as bad as doing Edsel again.

Other than Wings is there anyone here that considers a $50K plus Taurus a competitor to Lexus or Acura? Even the FWD Benz is more enticing than the Ford to the public. $329 a month and you can be a Benz owner. While that is not flatter to Benz in my eye it will make them some money but it needs to be closely managed. If it get out of hand it could damage the Brand.

The way I see it with the way the market is going. You have the volume brands, Then you have the mid level Luxury and then you have high end luxury The Big players are moving down to pick up some easy sales while the volume brands struggle to pick up the crumbs. I would not be shocked to see more companies move to a mid brand to pick up the low end luxury cars as to protect their high end cars.

In the end it is about making money and max profits not who sells the most in these higher segments. Volume is for value leaders. Value leaders don't get sprinkles.

I just think it is damn near impossible to do it with one brand anymore and getting difficult as the high end cars are more and more crossing into six figures. Benz tried to add to theirs with Maybach but I think they would have been better off doing a sub brand vs a higher one. Audi is one of the few doing the best on the low end but they still really lack that top end killer.

BMW is doing ok on mid and upper priced cars but their bottom end are just bla. They do get help with Mini but they try to reinvent the Mini much like Pizza Hut tried to reinvent the Pizza. It is difficult to when boxed in like they are to an image. At least sales are steady.

Hyundai Genesis is withering on the vine as it needs its own identity.

Couple points.

1. I never said a Taurus competes with a Lexus or Acura. I only said it competes with Buick, which you denied.

2. You keep saying they need another brand, a luxury brand. They already have one. And you also keep suggesting that Lincoln is not luxury, and you also ignore my points about them moving up market in coming years, as well as their intention to cater to the volume entry level crowd.

Thanks

El Kabong · June 15, 2015

I'm enjoying this hugely.

hyperv6 · June 15, 2015

Well Buick is working at competing with Acura and Lexus. You have to choose that Ford competes with them all or none. You can not pick and choose.

Lincoln is not a Luxury car that competes with Cadillac, BMW, Audi or Benz. They are not even in the picture at this point. They can be with Lexus, Acura and Buick but again you can not pick and choose. There is a low end Luxury segment and a upper scale.

Also again you have to step back and look at where Buick is going as what we have now is not representative of where they will be. They will move up from here and the Avenir is an example of where this is all going. Even if they build the Continental it will not compete with that car.

Also you watch the new Taurus in China and it will not sell as well as a true Luxury brand name.

I am sure Lincoln will improve but how much? Will they get a real RWD/AWD line? Or will they continue to make due with a Taurus platform? Like I have said this is where Cadillac was in the 90's and that was not enough.

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