Grassoline/Ethanol

[Charger4U]

I bet evryones probably heard of Ethanol or E85, most probably think its great, thinkin they wanna some sort of flexible fuel vehicle so you can even use it. I dont blame em, i mean for almost 1/2 the price why not bye soemthing that will chug corn.

To start off, it takes 3 times more energy to make one gallon of ethanol then it does to make gasoline, So if thats the case why is it so much cheaper than gasoline? Goverment funding. The government is deliberately raising gas prices just so youll lean to buyin ethanol, and like i said it takes 3 times more the enrgy so sssintialy 3 times more the money, then how is the goverment pulling this off? theyre not it just makes the country more and more in debt. But why doesnt the government care wether or no there in debt? Because just like my dad sais to me, "the $h! rolls down hill", what i mean is all theyll do to make up for the debt is tax us!! Pretty stupid in my opinion. Not to mention, its burning food, which is also retarded in its own special way.

Edited April 22, 2006 by Charger4U

[ToniCipriani]

One important fact is that crude oil from which gasoline is refined from is a fossil fuel. It's non renewable. Ethanol is made from sugar cane and other crops. Literally these things grow like crazy, and is a non issue of renewing it.

It's not just the cost, it's because we're running out of oil.

As development goes on, the cost of making ethanol will go down.

[pow]

My worry about ethanol and other alternative fuels is that it'll divert attention away from the level of consumption. People will think "Oh, it's good for the enviroment" and continue driving their 11 MPG E85 Suburbans to get groceries. Growing more corn has many environmental impacts, and it's all up to how you rationalize it. Grow more, increase photosynthesis. Grow more, increase fertilizer run-off. Or use less, use less.

[Croc]

Grow more, increase photosynthesis. Grow more, increase fertilizer run-off. Or use less, use less.

But this would be on existing farms that either get paid to destroy their crops or are paid not to plant at all. Given the amount of greenery lost to city development...I don't think the photosynthesis is an issue (is it ever an issue?)...as for the fertilizer runoff? That assumes more fertilizers are used than in standard aggricultural operations, something I'm just not convinced of at this point.

[pow]

But this would be on existing farms that either get paid to destroy their crops or are paid not to plant at all.  Given the amount of greenery lost to city development...I don't think the photosynthesis is an issue (is it ever an issue?)...as for the fertilizer runoff?  That assumes more fertilizers are used than in standard aggricultural operations, something I'm just not convinced of at this point.

I meant to say that increased photosynthesis is a good thing, a "pro".

[Drew Dowdell]

I bet evryones probably heard of Ethanol or E85, most probably think its great, thinkin they wanna some sort of flexible fuel vehicle so you can even use it. I dont blame em, i mean for almost 1/2 the price why not bye soemthing that will chug corn.

  To start off, it takes 3 times more energy to make one gallon of ethanol then it does to make gasoline, So if thats the case why is it so much cheaper than gasoline? Goverment funding. The government is deliberately raising gas prices just so youll lean to buyin ethanol, and like i said it takes 3 times more the enrgy so sssintialy 3 times more the money, then how is the goverment pulling this off? theyre not it just makes the country more and more in debt. But why doesnt the government care wether or no there in debt? Because just like my dad sais to me, "the $h! rolls down hill", what i mean is all theyll do to make up for the debt is tax us!! Pretty stupid in my opinion. Not to mention, its burning food, which is also retarded in its own special way.

Charger, you've been a great addition to C&G with many great ideas and insightful posts...... this isn't one of them.

Let's start with your errors:

1. You can't make the blanket statement that it takes 3 times as much energy to produce Ethanol then it does to produce the same quantity of gasoline. Ethanol can be made from many many different plant sources... each one takes a different amount of energy to get ethanol out of... it takes more energy to get ethanol out of woodpulp then it does switchgrass.. for example.

2. You're not burning "food".... that is unless you eat sawdust, grass, waste sugar cane, or rotten apples. Yes it can be produced from corn and wheat, but it isn't like we can't grow more.

3. You say that the cost of ethanol is artificially low because of government subsidies. I say the cost of oil is artifically low because it doesn't take into account the amount of money we spend in the Middle East. Where would you rather your tax dollars go to subsidize your fuel... the Middle East, or the Mid-west?

4. I think you're mixing up some statistics. There is around 30% less "energy" or BTU in a gallon of Ethanol then there is in a gallon of petrol. Currently, because our infrastructure isn't set up to produce large quantities of ethanol, we don't achieve the same economies of scale the petrol producers do.

Some facts:

1. Ethanol is completely renewable.

2. The plant sources for ethanol are very flexible. Just some of the examples are: Corn, Potatoes, sugar cane, wood pulp, saw dust, rotten fruit, fruit pealings, switch grass, hemp, peanuts <amongst other nuts>, grains, cheese whey, waste sucrose, potato waste, brewery waste, and food and beverage wastes.

So... have a bum crop of corn this year? No matter, call up the folks at Budwiser and see if they have any brewery waste they'd like to get rid of.

3. Ethanol is as close as we'll ever get to having a Net 0 CO2 emissions vehicle without going to solar powered cars. The amount of CO2 emitted from an ethanol burning car is never greater then the amount of CO2 absorbed by the plant while it was growing. Petrolium on the otherhand pumps dormant/stored CO2 up from the ground and releases it out into the air.

4. More agriculture in the US is a good thing. It improves the quality of your air and keeps the money you spend on fuel local <at least on the country level>.

5. Ethanol is water soluble, non-toxic and biodegradable. Making the envirmental cleanup of a spil as simple as a rain storm.

I suggest you check out E85Fuel.com for more information.

[ToniCipriani]

So... have a bum crop of corn this year?  No matter, call up the folks at Budwiser and see if they have any brewery waste they'd like to get rid of.

Didn't thought about this one. When the world starts to adopt more E85, I'd say we should push for tax grants for drinking beer

[Drew Dowdell]

Didn't thought about this one. When the world starts to adopt more E85, I'd say we should push for tax grants for drinking beer

hahahha....

The other day someone came around asking for donations to a charity that tried to prevent alcoholism in teens.

I told them I was drinking all I could so the kids wouldn't get their hands on it.

the dude wasn't amused.....

[pow]

3. Ethanol is as close as we'll ever get to having a Net 0 CO2 emissions vehicle without going to solar powered cars.  The amount of CO2 emitted from an ethanol burning car is never greater then the amount of CO2 absorbed by the plant while it was growing.  Petrolium on the otherhand pumps dormant/stored CO2 up from the ground and releases it out into the air.

Link?

[Drew Dowdell]

Link?

As you requested....

[Croc]

Comparison to biodiesel?

[Drew Dowdell]

Comparison to biodiesel?

None that I know of.... I support both equally. I think E85 is more realistic in the short term simply because it requires the least amount of change over.

I like diesel... but even the diesel loving europeans only run about 30% of their cars on diesel.

[Croc]

I like diesel... but even the diesel loving europeans only run about 30% of their cars on diesel.

Because they lack the crop space for biodiesel. USA/Canada won't have that problem since we have lots of wide open spaces.

[Drew Dowdell]

Because they lack the crop space for biodiesel.  USA/Canada won't have that problem since we have lots of wide open spaces.

No no... you misunderstood. Only 30% of their fleet are diesel cars.

[Charger4U]

Charger, you've been a great addition to C&G with many great ideas and insightful posts...... this isn't one of them.

thanks for the compliment.

Let's start with your errors:

1. You can't make the blanket statement that it takes 3 times as much energy to produce Ethanol then it does to produce the same quantity of gasoline.  Ethanol can be made from many many different plant sources... each one takes a different amount of energy to get ethanol out of... it takes more energy to get ethanol out of woodpulp then it does switchgrass.. for example.

a very smart guy at a service station told me in, but evryone hears different., plus it would seem as tho you got your facts from the E85 site which looks to me like it is promoting ethanol, and why wouldnt a site promoting ethanol lie about ethanol, that runs true for evry website/ad/company

2. You're not burning "food".... that is unless you eat sawdust, grass, waste sugar cane, or rotten apples.  Yes it can be produced from corn and wheat, but it isn't like we can't grow more.

True.

3. You say that the cost of ethanol is artificially low because of government subsidies. I say the cost of oil is artifically low because it doesn't take into account the amount of money we spend in the Middle East.  Where would you rather your tax dollars go to subsidize your fuel... the Middle East, or the Mid-west?

a very smart guy at a service station told me in, but i suppose evry1 hears different.

4. I think you're mixing up some statistics. There is around 30% less "energy" or BTU in a gallon of Ethanol then there is in a gallon of petrol.  Currently, because our infrastructure isn't set up to produce large quantities of ethanol, we don't achieve the same economies of scale the petrol producers do.

Some facts:

1. Ethanol is completely renewable.

2. The plant sources for ethanol are very flexible. Just some of the examples are: Corn, Potatoes, sugar cane, wood pulp, saw dust, rotten fruit, fruit pealings, switch grass, hemp, peanuts <amongst other nuts>, grains, cheese whey, waste sucrose, potato waste, brewery waste, and food and beverage wastes.

So... have a bum crop of corn this year?  No matter, call up the folks at Budwiser and see if they have any brewery waste they'd like to get rid of.

3. Ethanol is as close as we'll ever get to having a Net 0 CO2 emissions vehicle without going to solar powered cars.  The amount of CO2 emitted from an ethanol burning car is never greater then the amount of CO2 absorbed by the plant while it was growing.  Petrolium on the otherhand pumps dormant/stored CO2 up from the ground and releases it out into the air.

4. More agriculture in the US is a good thing. It improves the quality of your air and keeps the money you spend on fuel local <at least on the country level>.

5. Ethanol is water soluble, non-toxic and biodegradable. Making the envirmental cleanup of a spil as simple as a rain storm. 

I suggest you check out E85Fuel.com for more information.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Charger4U

[scharmer05]

there is more corn around that anyone wants anyway so why not make a cheaper fuel out of it....just makes sense i believe....i see nothing wrong with it at all.

I really don't understand why e85 is as expensive as it is right now, with what it cost to make ethanol, E85 should be closer to a dollar a gallon. I realise that many people aren't close to ethanol plants and there is extra transportation costs but that is not the case here...I live within 30 miles of 2 ethanol plants and E85 is still up at like 2.10 a gallon

[Charger4U]

etahnol is 1.50 here

[Drew Dowdell]

3. You say that the cost of ethanol is artificially low because of government subsidies. I say the cost of oil is artifically low because it doesn't take into account the amount of money we spend in the Middle East.  Where would you rather your tax dollars go to subsidize your fuel... the Middle East, or the Mid-west?

a very smart guy at a service station told me in, but i suppose evry1 hears different.

Keep in mind, I wasn't disputing the fact that ethanol is subsidized. I completely agree that it is. What most people don't think about is how oil is subsidized. If you think about how much we spend on mid-east wars and payments to mid-east countries to help pay their security forces the subsidy is much greater, though indirect.

1. You can't make the blanket statement that it takes 3 times as much energy to produce Ethanol then it does to produce the same quantity of gasoline.  Ethanol can be made from many many different plant sources... each one takes a different amount of energy to get ethanol out of... it takes more energy to get ethanol out of woodpulp then it does switchgrass.. for example.

a very smart guy at a service station told me in, but evryone hears different., plus it would seem as tho you got your facts from the E85 site which looks to me like it is promoting ethanol, and why wouldnt a site promoting ethanol lie about ethanol, that runs true for evry website/ad/company

Perhaps you would like a link to the U.S. Department of Energy then? It says the same thing.

[Charger4U]

Keep in mind, I wasn't disputing the fact that ethanol is subsidized. I completely agree that it is.  What most people don't think about is how oil is subsidized. If you think about how much we spend on mid-east wars and payments to mid-east countries to help pay their security forces the subsidy is much greater, though indirect.

Perhaps you would like a link to the U.S. Department of Energy then?  It says the same thing.

US DOE one way or anothetr has something to do with the governement and back to the roiginal post, there the ones promoting it

[CARBIZ]

From the Toronto Star yesterday, Brazil is leading the world in ethanol production. Brazil will be self-sufficient in oil this year, not having to import any oil.

Brazil is the world leader in ethanol. Sugar cane ethanol is more effecient: Brazil having achieve at ratio of 8.3:1 for every unit of energy expended to produce ethanol. Corn based ethanol, by comparison only achieves 1.3:1 at this time - not a very reassuring number.

The U.S. currently imports nearly 60% of its oil. America is one hurricane or suitcase nuke away from gasoline rationing. On the news last week they listed where all of the U.S.' imported oil comes from. Venezuela, Nigeria? You guys are crazy. Only Canada and Mexico's imported oil is reliable.

I'm all for freedom of expression, but if I had an SUV I would give is up in a New York second for a Malibu if it meant sticking it to Iran.

[Camino LS6]

As a nation, we are so pathetically late looking into alternative fuels. It is a critical economic and national security issue - or it should be.

[Charger4U]

As a nation, we are so pathetically late looking into alternative fuels. It is a critical economic and national security issue - or it should be.

, Exactly!