Where would GM be without UAW

[99camaroSS]

By now you all may have picked up on the fact that i refresh my leftlanenews.com about every 30 seconds, one of their latest postes is a review of where GM would be right now without the UAW, it is a great read you all should check it out.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/04/21/whe...ithout-the-uaw/

here are a few excerpts

Third, without the UAW, GM would have an average unit cost per automobile close to that of non-union Toyota. Toyota makes a profit of about $2,000 per vehicle, while GM suffers a loss of about $1,200 per vehicle, a difference of $3,200 per unit. And the far greater part of that difference is the result of nothing but GM’s being forced to deal with the UAW. (Over a year ago, The Cincinnati Enquirer reported that “the United Auto Workers contract costs GM $2,500 for each car sold.”)

Eighth, without the UAW, GM would not now have pension obligations

which, if entered on its balance sheet in accordance with the rule now being proposed by the Financial Accounting Standards Board, will leave it with a net worth of minus $16 billion

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/04/21/whe...ithout-the-uaw/

***** No offense to any UAW members intended by posting this article

Edited April 21, 2006 by 99camaroSS

[Guest Josh]

Management signed on the same dotted line as Union brothers and sisters all over the United States. Nobody is to blame but management.

[99camaroSS]

i wouldnt go as far to say that no one is to blame but management but i do believe that the UAW and Management share equal repsonisblility, UAW for it demands and Management for its lunacy in signing off on the contracts

Edited April 21, 2006 by 99camaroSS

[I hope GMRULES again]

Management signed on the same dotted line as Union brothers and sisters all over the United States. Nobody is to blame but management.

What choice did management have? Don't sign and get hit with a crippling strike? We'll see what happens in Sept. 07.

[bowtie_dude]

What choice did management have? Don't sign and get hit with a crippling strike? We'll see what happens in Sept. 07.

Indeed.

[Ghost Dog]

Pointless. Since the Union is'nt going anywhere.

[The O.C.]

Pointless. Since the Union is'nt going anywhere.

Let's just reevaluate your statement, oh, say five years from now?

Shall we?

[CaddyXLR-V]

And we wonder why the transplants are increasing capacity and hiring workers while the domestics are reducing it, and getting rid of as many workers as possible.

[Northstar]

Let's just reevaluate your statement, oh, say five years from now?

Shall we?

I don't think the Union is going to be nearly as strong after Sept. '07. We shall see though...

[Camino LS6]

You can't get blood from a stone, the leaders of the UAW are smart enough to realize it. They, and the domestics will negotiate their way back to reality, otherwise it is lose, lose. A soft landing is what the UAW needs to engineer for its members as the domestic industry is in freefall until these issues are resolved. I am certain that they will be.

[Ghost Dog]

Let's just reevaluate your statement, oh, say five years from now?

Shall we?

The Union does'nt go anywhere without taking GM with it. You must be saying Bancruptcy is certain.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Ghost Dog

[CaddyXLR-V]

There will always be more companies, but once the union is gone, I doubt it's coming back. Without the automakers, the union would be pretty much extinct. If the carmakers go down, I'd be planning to move away from Michigan in a hurry.

[Drew Dowdell]

Management signed on the same dotted line as Union brothers and sisters all over the United States. Nobody is to blame but management.

No, never blame the union that held the management's feet to the fire by threatening to strike...

there is plenty of blame to go around.... both sides can share it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Pointless. Since the Union is'nt going anywhere.

That's ok, plants can still be built in Mexico......

I guess you could say the jobs are going somewhere....

[Ghost Dog]

That's ok, plants can still be built in Mexico......

I guess you could say the jobs are going somewhere....

They can sell em in mexico to. Because Protectionism is coming to . The Big T TARIFFS!!

See How many GM cars those three dollar an hour mexicans buy. :rotflmao:

[CaddyXLR-V]

They can sell em in mexico to. Because Protectionism is coming to .  The Big T  TARIFFS!!

See How many GM cars those three dollar an hour mexicans buy. :rotflmao:

Not gonna happen. The rest of the country doesnt care about the Union, we just want great cars. The only place that really matters is Michigan. The other 49 states dont care.

[Ghost Dog]

Not gonna happen. The rest of the country doesnt care about the Union, we just want great cars. The only place that really matters is Michigan. The other 49 states dont care.

See what happens when politicians start running on anti outsourcing platforms.

[Brandon Lutz]

No, never blame the union that held the management's feet to the fire by threatening to strike...

there is plenty of blame to go around.... both sides can share it.

Both sides make some dumb moves. Now they have to deal with the cards they dealt each other and come up with something, and something that works.

[bowtie_dude]

See what happens when politicians start running on anti outsourcing platforms.

Won't happen, and if it does, it won't garner public support.

[Drew Dowdell]

Where would GM be without the UAW? About 100 billion richer....

[CSpec]

Tariffs? Yeah right.

[CaddyXLR-V]

See what happens when politicians start running on anti outsourcing platforms.

They wont be voted in? Get out of Michigan, the rest of the country doesn't care. This arguement has been played up for the past 30 years, and it's just getting weaker every year that passes.

[Ghost Dog]

Not paying attention. tsk, tsk.

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/...0604120160.html

The U.S. midterm elections this autumn will likely fan protectionism even further. From cars to consumer goods of every kind, foreign imports are growing. American citizens, who are worried about their future, can easily support protectionism on grounds of unfair foreign business practices or national security.

Edited April 22, 2006 by Ghost Dog

[bowtie_dude]

Not paying attention. tsk, tsk.

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/...0604120160.html

What the hell is Asahi? Please, get out of here with your protectionist garbage. The general public doesn't care if a few thousand non-skilled labor move overseas. At least, not enough to try and stop it. And the intelligent ones actually support it, since they know that, in the end, its beneficial for the country.

[CARBIZ]

No matter which side of the issue you are on, any intelligent person will realize that these one-sided trade imbalances can't continue. China is going to own more American treasury bills than any other entity very soon.

And then what?

Remember one thing: China is a totalitarian state. Economists pat themselves on the back that no foreign power would dare make a run on the U.S. dollar because it would only serve to plunge the world into economic chaos. Well, that may be true of democracies that have interest groups pulling in every direction.

What about a one-party state? With clarity and conviction, China could pull their entire country in one direction while the Western world plunges into chaos.

The perfect storm of spiralling energy costs and the American current account deficit could really take the wind out of America's sails. Throw in the billions every month that Iraq is costing and I am very afraid for 2007.

I just can't believe Washington is ignoring this issue. American manufacturers are jumping into bed with Beijing, but we know they are just going to copy our processes and then use them against us.

I am all for Free Trade, but it has to be two-sided. Trade with Europe is two-sided. Trade with South America is two-sided.

TRADE WITH ASIA IS NOT TWO SIDED.

[longtooth]

The Union  does'nt go anywhere without taking GM with it. You must be saying Bancruptcy is certain.

When we speak of the "Union", i think we should differentiate between the top 1000 or so upper echelon officials (elected and appointed) who use the larger body of the membership as leverage to secure the affluence and perks they enjoy.

The business model upon which this decades old fuedal type system is based is long dead. Both leadership cadres (GM and UAW) are aware of this. In my opinion, the grasping, covetous, conniving element atop the UAW, loathe to give up their cozy sinecures are positioning themselves to remain glutted and sated while the average "rank and file" (have always despised that term) suffer for the short-sighted machinations of those to whom they've entrusted their livelihoods and welfare. In the popular vernacular, "they be playin' us".

I don't wish to see General Motors go in bankruptcy, or relegated to some type of court supervised receivership. Home-grown industry is vital to the survival of this nation. We've squandered too much in this race-to-the-bottom-global-economy-giveaway as it is. The debate swirling around illegal immigration is as a smokescreen to obscure the fact that even white collar service type jobs are flying overseas and that the "illegals" are doing the work that our complacent children won't do. or doing the jobs we can't outsource to India.

If we the people allow this to continue, just so the top two percent of this population can live in splendor then we need but look in the mirror if we want to know whom to blame.

[The O.C.]

I don't think the Union is going to be nearly as strong after Sept. '07. We shall see though...

Exactly my point, Northie....

[The O.C.]

Not gonna happen. The rest of the country doesnt care about the Union, we just want great cars. The only place that really matters is Michigan. The other 49 states dont care.

Maybe not JUST Michigan....but your basic theory is true......

I'd call it the midwest in general....but that's about it.....

[CaddyXLR-V]

Maybe not JUST Michigan....but your basic theory is true......

I'd call it the midwest in general....but that's about it.....

Well they will all be hit the hardest if they decide to play chicken with GM and they collide. When the dust settles, I'll still have my job.

[ellives]

I can't believe you actually posted this statement. It epitomizes the reason why Toyota is eating GM's lunch.

Management signed on the same dotted line as Union brothers and sisters all over the United States. Nobody is to blame but management.

[ellives]

Are you kidding? Tariffs? How about if we just compete? If we're better, we'll get the business. If not, we won't.

Not paying attention. tsk, tsk.

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/...0604120160.html

[Drew Dowdell]

Are you kidding? Tariffs? How about if we just compete? If we're better, we'll get the business. If not, we won't.

Then level the playing field? I suggest that GM imediately switch to the same healthcare and retirement setup that Toyota North America uses.

Then I'll sit back with a gin and tonic and watch the UAW cry about it on T.V.

[Ghost Dog]

Then level the playing field? I suggest that GM imediately switch to the same healthcare and retirement setup that Toyota North America uses.

Then I'll sit back with a gin and tonic and watch the UAW cry about it on T.V.

How about we level our selves with the Civilized world. National Healthcare!

[ellives]

How about we focus our collective energies toward Mr. Bush and explain to him how "relevant" national healthcare would be?

How about we level our selves with the Civilized world. National Healthcare!

[Intrepidation]

How about we focus our collective energies toward Mr. Bush and explain to him how "relevant" national healthcare would be?

Waist of energy, since Bush has all the intelligence of a wad of dirt.

[Drew Dowdell]

How about we level our selves with the Civilized world. National Healthcare!

*toddles off to play Civ IV.*

[Angry Dad]

What load of crap, it's no lie that Toyota built it's strength by hiding behind a protectionist government. Now that society is whining that it might be thrown back at them? I have no pity.

What really seesm to be ignored is while the UAW is blamed for what some self absorbed individuals proclaim as excessive wages for unskilled labor, the UAW is also the catalyst for a great deal of civil rights programs. Those whining about how wages are too high sure don't care to give credit for equal wages without reference to race, creed or sex. Yep, you pay for that when you buy UAW.

You see the problem is while Toyota and the rest may build some pasable cars, their social skills suck. They aren't the ones that paid the bills for social justice and they frankly if they weren't imposed on them here, they'd be the first to blow them away. It's no wonder the safety records in all their plants are so abismal. They fricking do not care and they will replace anybody at anytime, dead or alive.

For some reason any car company that hires Ol' DW and has him put on the hillbilly act to the max just to sell cars sure isn't proud of their own heritage.

[The O.C.]

What load of crap, it's no lie that Toyota built it's strength by hiding behind a protectionist government.

What really seesm to be ignored is while the UAW is blamed for what some self absorbed individuals proclaim as excessive wages for unskilled labor, the UAW is also the catalyst for a great deal of civil rights programs. Those whining about how wages are too high sure don't care to give credit for equal wages without reference to race, creed or sex. Yep, you pay for that when you buy UAW.

Uh.....NO.....

Toyota built it's strength by realizing the true nature of the automotive market in the U.S. and starting to build products that appealed to consumers in this country due to their design, engineering, and quality......while GM did the exact opposite.

AND...I find it ironic that the majority of industries in the U.S. that are growing, prospering, and thriving right now have absolutely little-to-no historic ties to labor unions.....(service industries, high-tech, real estate, etc..)

The goodwill achieved by labor unions in their heyday (workers rights, compensation, benefits, and job security) have been FAR overrun by the disgusting greed coming from the latter-day UAW.

[Camino LS6]

The truth, of course, lies somewhere in the middle. Unfair Japanese business practices were and are a major factor. The unions stepped over the line of just and reasonable demands decades ago. Our own government has left its head rotting in the sand for decades. GM management made deals it knew it could not honor indefinitely. So on and so forth.

What we are left with now is reality's ugly face holding tomorrow behind its back and out of reach without honest cooperation between the old foes.

[ellives]

Ouch!

I'm not sure I'd agree "disgusting greed" is quite appropriate. I've found over the years that while the union is SUPPOSED to operate as a single unified force, once the union has the upper hand, each union member operates focused only on what he or she can get away with while still remaining compliant with the "union rules." General statements are risky because there are always exceptions but I've found this behavior to be rampant. The problem is that union agreements have tended to be structured in ways that encourage this kind of behavior. In fact I see them as having fostered lack of individual responsibility and ambition. The "goal" always seemed to be to "get into the union" and you're "all set." This should not be the ultimate goal and clearly provides a haven for those who don't want to make the effort and in the end cause the overall negative image unions have.

My 2 cents.

Uh.....NO.....

Toyota built it's strength by realizing the true nature of the automotive market in the U.S. and starting to build products that appealed to consumers in this country due to their design, engineering, and quality......while GM did the exact opposite.

AND...I find it ironic that the majority of industries in the U.S. that are growing, prospering, and thriving right now have absolutely little-to-no historic ties to labor unions.....(service industries, high-tech, real estate, etc..)

The goodwill achieved by labor unions in their heyday (workers rights, compensation, benefits, and job security) have been FAR overrun by the disgusting greed coming from the latter-day UAW.

[Angry Dad]

Uh.....NO.....

Toyota built it's strength by realizing the true nature of the automotive market in the U.S. and starting to build products that appealed to consumers in this country due to their design, engineering, and quality......while GM did the exact opposite.

AND...I find it ironic that the majority of industries in the U.S. that are growing, prospering, and thriving right now have absolutely little-to-no historic ties to labor unions.....(service industries, high-tech, real estate, etc..)

The goodwill achieved by labor unions in their heyday (workers rights, compensation, benefits, and job security) have been FAR overrun by the disgusting greed coming from the latter-day UAW.

Oh hogwash, Toyota built none of the market it is plundering. They built some ungodly lousy cars and trucks in the 60s and 70s. The disgusting greed these days is American "consumer" placing saving fifty cents over sticking with the people who really built the nation.

Would any of the "prospering" industries be giving and now taking away benefits if not for the unions? The problem is the utter baloney stories passed around about union workers. While not all are perfect as the supposed Toyota superworker is, the American worker is not as blind drunk or stoned as some want you to believe.

Big business has been labeled and exploited by politicians. Either as a social program or a source for campaign contributions. Right now the politicians will give away the farm to get a Toyota plant built in their back yard. While the evil empire of the UAW gets no consideration. Ever do simple math and see where the tax funds given away come from?

Dragging somebody else's economic status down doesn't automatically enrich you. It's as perposterous as the "Mexicans do jobs Americans won't" , that translates to "Some people are too fricking cheap to pay a fair wage".

[ellives]

It's as perposterous as the "Mexicans do jobs Americans won't" , that translates to "Some people are too fricking cheap to pay a fair wage".

I absolutely agree with this statement. I have been outraged listening to this quote in the media unchallenged. It's exactly what you describe: Employers are too damn cheap to pay enough for someone who isn't starving or illegal to be willing to do the job. It's "supply and demand" people. If there isn't a supply of workers willing at one price, you have to pay more. Simple.

Oh hogwash, Toyota built none of the market it is plundering. They built some ungodly lousy cars and trucks in the 60s and 70s. The disgusting greed these days is American "consumer" placing saving fifty cents over sticking with the people who really built the nation.

Would any of the "prospering" industries be giving and now taking away benefits if not for the unions? The problem is the utter baloney stories passed around about union workers. While not all are perfect as the supposed Toyota superworker is, the American worker is not as blind drunk or stoned as some want you to believe.

Big business has been labeled and exploited by politicians. Either as a social program or a source for campaign contributions. Right now the politicians will give away the farm to get a Toyota plant built in their back yard. While the evil empire of the UAW gets no consideration. Ever do simple math and see where the tax funds given away come from?

Dragging somebody else's economic status down doesn't automatically enrich you. It's as perposterous as the "Mexicans do jobs Americans won't" , that translates to "Some people are too fricking cheap to pay a fair wage".

[CaddyXLR-V]

Define "fair wage." Is that $28 an hour for a janitor, and $100,000 a year for a forklift operator?

Fair is determined by the market. They are losing their jobs because they are getting paid more than fair wages, simple as that.

[CARBIZ]

It amazes me how ignorant most North Americans are to what is going on right in their own back yard.

Japan Inc is for real. It isn't some conspiracy theory. MITI (MInistry of International Trade and INdustry) is real and formidable. Japan's political system may look like that of the West's, their business models behave much differently.

Industrialist Akio Morita, once president of Sony was quoted as saying," militarily we could never defeat the United States, but economically we can overcome the United States and become number one in the world."

Japanese companies are routinely forced to buy goods from other Japanese companies, even when cheaper or better foreign goods are offered. MITI brokers rich import quotas (on items like beets, sugar, etc.) to companies to offest their losses when dumping products abroad. This is how Sony, Matsu$h!a, Mitsubishi, Sanyo, Toshiba and Sharp managed to destroy the American television and electronics industry 30 years ago.

WAKE UP!

I am all for free trade, but our trade with Asia is hardly free trade. Toyota, Honda, etc. enjoy protected markets at home while waging trade wars abroad. Even the Chinese are wary of Japan, whichi is why to this day most foreign contracts are being awarded to American, Dutch, British or German firms, even though Japan is only a couple hundred miles away!

I agree that GM and Ford, with the unions as side kicks, have done a lot of stupid things in the past 20 years, but so has Toyota, yet they are getting a free ride with the media.

Why is that?

[CARBIZ]

Sorry, my reference for the above quote is from a book (appropriately) called The Japanese Conspiracy by author Marvin Wolf, who lived in Asia for many years in the '70s and '80s.

A great read, by the way. Very eye opening. Should send a copy to Bush!

[Ghost Dog]

Define "fair wage." Is that $28 an hour for a janitor, and $100,000 a year for a forklift operator?

Fair is determined by the market. They are losing their jobs because they are getting paid more than fair wages, simple as that.

And Three Dollars an Hour is?

You Guys can get off this Market can bear crap to.Corruption and Collusion is all it has got us. It's over, the Socialy conscientious are rising up. We are taking back what 25 years of trickle down took away. We will resurrect the American middle class.

Rise Up Rise Up!!!!!

Show your power!!

VOTE!VOTE!VOTE!

Edited April 23, 2006 by Ghost Dog

[CaddyXLR-V]

And Three Dollars an Hour is?

You Guys  can get off this Market can bear crap to.Corruption and Collusion is all it has  got us. It's over, the Socialy conscientious are rising up. We are taking back what 25 years of trickle down took away. We will resurrect the American middle class.

Rise Up Rise Up!!!!!

Show your power!!

VOTE!VOTE!VOTE!

no, I never said $3 was fair. At $3 an hour nobody would apply, so the employer would need to increase their wages wouldn't they? If they had millions of people wanting to work for them at $3 an hour, then yes, it would be fair. Thats the way "fair wages" is determined.

[regfootball]

i'm all for getting excellent wages and working benefits in this country.

but here's the kicker. our society is CUSTOMER DRIVEN. not employee driven. so workers union or non all need to keep that in mind.

this past week the teamsters/mechanics are on strike at many dealerships around here. i wonder if they GET the contempt the CUSTOMERS have towards them. i.e. yes we get you have a dispute with your employer, but it exactly makes us care a whole lot less about you when you strike and not serve the customer. If you're gonna strike, at least be professional about it. Get off your f*cking lawn chairs, and at least dress in something besides slob wear. Don't sit and fricking smoke on your camp chairs with the cooler beside you and look like a bunch of loiterers hanging out drinking colt 45 and throwing cigarette butts all over. Dress like a professional and get off your ass and look and act professional. Shave and bathe and groom yourself. This ain't sturgis.

Its crap like that that makes the US population not give a damn about the state of the union. Everyone else is working their ass off too, why should we emphasize with a bunch of dolts hanging out, sitting around, and reaching into the coolers. We all go to work everyday and these guys decide they want to take a bunch of days off when they are already likely getting better wages and bennies than everyone else.

GREAT PUBLICITY for your PLIGHT!

Edited April 24, 2006 by regfootball

[The O.C.]

Ouch!

I'm not sure I'd agree "disgusting greed" is quite appropriate. I've found over the years that while the union is SUPPOSED to operate as a single unified force, once the union has the upper hand, each union member operates focused only on what he or she can get away with while still remaining compliant with the "union rules."

My comments and opinions and are not (obviously) all-inclusive of every UAW member....but they DO come from 7 years of working closely with the UAW in Flint and Detroit and from my many negative experiences with the UAW and the overall atmosphere of "us versus them" that they openly promoted.

So....YES...it IS opinion....but it comes from some solid (mostly negative unfortunately) experiences....

[Simon C]

Define "fair wage." Is that $28 an hour for a janitor, and $100,000 a year for a forklift operator?

Fair is determined by the market. They are losing their jobs because they are getting paid more than fair wages, simple as that.

Hey Caddy, I know everyone thinks we (the UAW) makes $100,000 a year, but we don't. Some skilled trades do, but they just about live in the plant. If you did the math on the $100,000, at $28 dollars an hour, it would take someone to work about 68 hours a week to make that much money.

Come on guys, get off the UAW "bad guy" stuff. In case you haven't been listening, GM and the UAW are working things out just fine.