When will the GTO concept appear?

[thegriffon]

I think they are assuming much of the work has already been done. If they are simply rebodying a CTS then maybe they could do it in 12 months after approval, but the Camaro would of course need an entirely new interior and probably different V6 engines, not to mention other work to cut the cost. I would expect the next GTO to be substantially bigger than the Camaro concept. A new CTS coupe may be closer, but then if they are sensible it will be much more expensive and have the lush interior, technology and engines to justify the difference.

[91z4me]

Not going to happen.  That is fact.  Vehicle develpoment just does not work that fast.

And I believe your basing your answers on the fact that no RFQ has been given, correct?

So a valid question is how much work can be done before an RFQ is established?

[evok]

And I believe your basing your answers on the fact that no RFQ has been given, correct?

So a valid question is how much work can be done before an RFQ is established?

I am basing my my comments on my understanding as to the status of the program, including the lack of supplier involvment as well as a first hand understanding of the vehicle development process including timing and program milestones. In front of me, is GMs Vehcle Development Process Bible.

Let me assure the board, when the suppliers are brought on board, within hours of that happening, information will make its way to the message forums.

Each day that passes moves the clock back app. 30 months until any zeta vehicle hits the showroom.

Please for the last time, there is no such thing as a 12, 18 or 24 month program in the real world. That is just Wall St. symantics. If you do not believe what I have said read rlseditions comments here:

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.ph...1482#post901482

Edited January 13, 2006 by evok

[Ghost Dog]

Who Knows really. For all we know Patac could have picked up the Zeta developement. For all we know Zeta could be coming out of Shanghai.

For all we know the Trailblazer and Envoy could be coming out of Thailand.

The Malibu out of Korea.

The Ion out of Poland, or Brazil.

If GM wants to betray America.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Ghost Dog

[prinzSD]

If a GTO is to be revived after the current generation dies out it will have to piggy back on a global program.  The case in point is that the current Monaro GTO did more for keeping Holden viable than anything else.  In OZ, Holden only sold about 2,000 Monaros a year, where they produced app. 20,000 GTO for NA and kept the factory running.

The real problem besides the obvious resourse allocation by GM is that GTO buyers looking for a Muscle car in the absense of a GTO replacement would go to a Camaro if done right.  From a packaging standpoint, there is absolutly no difference between the Camaro conept and the current GTO.  Both big, midsized two doors that can seat 4 easily.  Therefore, there is little incentive to GM to come out with a GTO for limited volume that may steal some sales from a Camaro for which they are currently trying to build a business case.

Also, not that I trust what he said, but Lutz did go on the record and state Chevrolet would need to sell 165k Camaros in order for it to be viable.  It is possible that the existence of a GTO would eat into that goal.

Also, Dodge will have the Challenger and Ford will have more variations and models of the Mustange to keep it fresh.  The OEM's will be fighting over smaller slice of a stagnant market.

This does not mean I would not like to see a properly designed GTO for Pontiac, I am just showing that with a push for a Camaro, it makes it harder for GM to justify spending money for a GTO replacment.

What I think is a more viable option is for GM to give Pontiac a stretched Kappa with a V6, and offer a true 2+2.  ala Mazda RX8.  Or do the same for Buick and design it around the Riviera. 

But in summary, the 2 door portfolio is getting crowded if the CTS Coupe and Camaro get the go ahead.

If Pontiac is the performance division, what will it get for a 2 door coupe performance car for us Pontiac guys? Even the supercharged Solstice GXP is not enough for us (or me, rather) and I am certainly not interested in a four door RWD sedan. I would much prefer a RWD 2 door coupe in the Pontiac line up. It seems Pontiac I am afraid is becoming irrelevent in this new bright 21 st century. Man has GM really f@#ked things up if it comes to this!

[hyperv6]

I will extend a applogy to evok on my time line. I missed a year some place and hope he feels better with my new time line.

I expect the Camaro in the summer or fall of 08 so it would be just over 30 months and not the 18-24 I stated inccorectly. Lutz has stated publicly that he will doo what he ca tor get this car to maket in 08 as a 09. I knew it would be late in 08 but forgot to count one year in my months.

I expect the GTO to be in a few months before or after the GTO. The RWD sedans I will bet will come before either as that is where the money is at.

But I will stand on the fact Pontiac will have a 2 dooe euro like perfromance coupe. I also expect the GTO name to carry on as it has too much equity to not use it with this kind of machine.

[ehaase]

But I will stand on the fact Pontiac will have a 2 dooe euro like perfromance coupe. I also expect the GTO name to carry on as it has too much equity to not use it with this kind of machine.

Why? Pontiac went 30 years without a GTO. The name doesn't have to carry on.

Most of us who are not insiders would be wiser to say, "I hope Pontiac will have a GTO soon after the Camaro debuts," instead of making it sound like a fact. Because it's not a fact. It's not even a fact that there will be a General Motors in North America in 2009.

[Croc]

It's not even a fact that there will be a General Motors in North America in 2009.

...and what are you basing that on? GM isn't close to bankruptcy. At all.

[ehaase]

...and what are you basing that on?  GM isn't close to bankruptcy.  At all.

The fact that GM is spending $24 million per day than it is taking in. If that doesn't start to reverse very soon, it is not a fact that GM will be around in 2009.

You are the most argumentative person here at C&G. I wish you would just ignore my posts.

[Croc]

You are the most argumentative person here at C&G.  I wish you would just ignore my posts.

Why? Because I ask you to back up a pretty strong assertion that goes contrary to what our insiders tell us and contrary to what Forbes has published? Sorry, buddy, doesn't work that way.

GM won't go under; there are too many safety nets. Firstly, in order for GM to go bankrupt, it has to qualify for bankruptcy. It currently does not, nor is it close to qualifying. GM also has many assets that could be sold off before going under to generate cash. The Federal Government would give GM aid just like they did to Chrysler before allowing GM to go under. Finally, Forbes published a pretty comprehensive article that was also posted on here in the last month or so that debunked bankruptcy talk. I'll try to find it for you.

Sorry, I just don't buy into what the talking heads on TV are selling.

Here is the Forbes article: click

Edited January 14, 2006 by Croc

[hyperv6]

There's not enough room for a Firebird.  Instead look for another GTO, but with a different twist. :AH-HA_wink:

I agree fully on this and Scott S has made this point very clear.

He would never say never but left the statement with a good indications there are no plans to go revisit a Firebird in the future

[ocnblu]

A different twist, eh? Well, I hope it's not suicide doors. If it is, they need to do much more work to stiffen the body to make up for the loss in structure, based on what's out there now.

[Ghost Dog]

Here's a question. This is Eric Bitter's CD2 concept. Built off of the Curent Holden Monaro/GTO platform.

Why did GTO come out so boring?

[Chazman]

There's not enough room for a Firebird.  Instead look for another GTO, but with a different twist. :AH-HA_wink:

Would you say the quad coupe is the front runner...or even has a chance?

[Cory Wolfe]

There's not enough room for a Firebird.  Instead look for another GTO, but with a different twist. :AH-HA_wink:

Well... I just hope it's styled nicely. If this twist implies more than two doors, as long as they don't try to market it as coupe, I'll be somewhat alright with it. Hopefully it'll be a quad coupe, if anything, and not a sedan. Just please don't make it ugly... or overly retro... *crosses fingers*

[prinzSD]

There's not enough room for a Firebird.  Instead look for another GTO, but with a different twist. :AH-HA_wink:

Well as a fan of Trans Ams, I can live with a GTO, as long as GM does not eliminate a RWD V8 preferably a coupe of some sort from the Pontiac line up.

[hyperv6]

New twist the small rear doors or AWD?

AWD would give the GTO something many in it's class lacks.

Just a thought.

[NOS2006]

With a twist? I wouldn't doubt the GTO coming full force with AWD and a more "stocky" looking body (read: EVO).

[evok]

Nothing is certain.

[Guest Josh]

Ah, $h! I love this web-site. That being said, there will certainly be another GTO, it's just on the basics of what it will be. You have to factor this in...

If the Camaro is just now "on" yet "unofficially official" and we're just now talking about a GTO...that leaves us at least two to three years away from a new GTO something I don't think Pontiac could manage.

Business right now is so tough, I'd hate to see them without another model.

[evok]

That being said, there will certainly be another GTO, it's just on the basics of what it will be. You have to factor this in...

Dude - you should know better than that. Nothing is certain until it is on a dealers lot.

Where is the GMX002 and the GMT361 etc.

[thegriffon]

Here's a question. This is Eric Bitter's CD2 concept. Built off of the Curent Holden Monaro/GTO platform.

Why did GTO come out so boring?

Because it's a quarter the price of the Bitter?

[ToniCipriani]

Hey, don't forget us up here. We have a special affectionate for Pontiac.

[91z4me]

Any insiders wish to comment on Brandon from GMI claiming that a RWD 4 door Pontiac coupe, which he says will carry the GTO nameplate, was present at the media preview?

[NOS2006]

Any insiders wish to comment on Brandon from GMI claiming that a RWD 4 door Pontiac coupe, which he says will carry the GTO nameplate, was present at the media preview?

Yeah right. What a douchebag.

[z28luvr01]

IIRC, he said there were sketches, not the actual car.

[91z4me]

IIRC, he said there were sketches, not the actual car.

To quote from the thread

GM showed the press a few months ago a GTO quad coupe concept...

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showpost.ph...50&postcount=22

[NOS2006]

Alright, I correct myself in calling him a douchebag.

I thought you guys meant a straight up model because we would've all heard about it. Now, sketches, hm?

[Munson05]

New twist the small rear doors or AWD?

AWD would give the GTO something many in it's class lacks.

Just a thought.

I read somewhere aout the small rear doors like the Saturns have i hope its just a rumor, I had AWD in my Silverado SS, its was great in the rain and all and for a truck it handled well but I dont think AWD is suited for a muscle car. If wasnt all time AWD then that would be pretty cool. Im not sure if they even have that but i think that would give you the best of both worlds. The traction control in my GTO is pretty effective. I just hope theres a concept soon.

[hyperv6]

AWD is just a though as Chrysler has a AWD package for the LX and I am sure for the LY chassie. I have not seen GM say anything on AWD other than the Holden platform is AWD capable. If GM has it where will they fit it in? Because of cost I would not expect Chevy. Now Buick and Pontiac would be in the right price range.

These are not the 60's any more or cheap cars so you might call them muscle cars but in truth they are competing against Audi and BMW lower end cars as sport sedans. The GTO is never going to be a Camaro or Mustang fighter. GM needs it to do it's job in the price range above the Camaro.

I see the GTO being what John Delorean originally invisioned a true Euro coupe/ sedan fighter not a American poser as GM made it. John D tried to get things like radial tires, rear disc brakes, OHC engines and Fuel injection back in the mid 60's to only be shot down by GM managment. The true GTO he wanted was much more advanced but was just never allowed to bring it to market.

I expect the new car to be more of what he invisioned. Pontiac for years wanted a to be a Euro car but never fit the bill. But I can see they really have a chance now to be a world car not just another American car.

Lets face it I am a Pontiac guy through and through but they never convinced me the early 70's Grand Am was a Euro fighter as it was claimed. Nice car but not a BMW fighter and I was just a kid then and knew better.

I have a hunch all Pontiacs will be RWD at the very least in the future. I can see the FWD being moved off the line up someday.

Edited January 28, 2006 by hyperv6

[Munson05]

AWD is just a though as Chrysler has a AWD package for the LX and I am sure for the LY chassie. I have not seen GM say anything on AWD other than the Holden platform is AWD capable. If GM has it where will they fit it in? Because of cost I would not expect Chevy. Now Buick and Pontiac would be in the right price range.

These are not the 60's any more or cheap cars so you might call them muscle cars but in truth they are competing against Audi and BMW lower end cars as sport sedans. The GTO is never going to be a Camaro or Mustang fighter. GM needs it to do it's job in the price range above the Camaro.

I see the GTO being what John Delorean originally invisioned a true Euro coupe/ sedan fighter not a American poser as GM made it. John D tried to get things like radial tires, rear disc brakes, OHC engines and Fuel injection  back in the mid 60's to only be shot down by GM managment. The true GTO he wanted was much more advanced but was just never allowed to bring it to market.

I expect the new car to be more of what he invisioned.  Pontiac for years wanted a to be a Euro car but never fit the bill. But I can see they really have a chance now to be a world car not just another American car.

Lets face it I am a Pontiac guy through and through but they never convinced me the early 70's Grand Am was a Ero fighter as it was claimed. Nice car but not a BMW fighter and I was just a kid then and knew better.

I have a hunch all Pontiacs will be RWD at the very least in the future. I can see the FWD being moved off the line up someday.

Very good point,

[ToniCipriani]

I can see the FWD being moved off the line up someday.

Not sure if this is the perfect idea though. This is what GM did with FWD and 4-speed autos. Look what we have here today. Every single car has the same: FWD and 4-speed automatic, even on the cars that shouldn't be.

Edited February 5, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[Robert Hall]

Not sure if this is the perfect idea though. This is what GM did with FWD and 4-speed autos. Look what we have here today. Every single car has the same: FWD and 4-speed automatic, even on the cars taht shouldn't be.

FWD and 4spd auto is just fine for the main audience of most GM sedans (Avis fleets)

[guionM]

Just wanted to a a few cents to this entire thread.

First, Camaro is coming alot quicker than is the norm.

*The chassis is already done. The "Zeta" that was killed last year is the VZ based structure. The suspension components are the same, as is the construction method (modular). Once the VE hits the streets, items like the IRS assembly and the front strut assembly are in production.

*The car isn't going to go to any clinics. This means that there isn't going to be time spent on restyling or tweaking.

*The car isn't going to have to wait for an existing product to complete it's production cycle. Lutz ruled out producing the next Camaro in Canada, leaving one assembly plant: Wilmington. This plant has the capacity for 200,000 annually, but to date is slated for a mere 35,000 Kappas. To top this off, the machinary from the Saturn L is still intact. As soon as the word (and money) is given, we're looking at not much more than 12 months in pulling out the old line and redoing the plant for a Camaro and it's variations.

Not saying by any means it could come out in 12 months, but 18 to 24 isn't out the question. Ed Welburn has said the car would be done quicker than usual if approved, and even Scott has hinted that Camaro isn't going to play by conventional timelines.

Second, about the GTO:

*Pontiac has comitted themselves publically to the GTO... name.

*GTO simply won't be a rebodied and reskined Camaro.

*If made, GTO is going to be a larger car than the Camaro.

*GTO is going to have something unique about it.

GTO has a different code name than Camaro does, and it's also been designed by Holden, while Camaro was done here in North America. In the end, it's possible it will be made here, possibly even in the same plant as the Camaro (the whole idea of Zeta is multiple configurations on the same assembly line). But it won't be a Camaro.

Finally, about Zeta sedans and Cadillac's coupe:

*Cadillac's coupe has been a very long time coming. There's a Business Week article on Rick Wagoner from a few years ago that brushes on it.

*It was held up to be part of the next CTS.

*It's almost certainly going to be alot more than $35,000 starting.

*Nothing is certain as far as the Zeta sedan beyond Chevrolet at this point.

The original idea apparently was that Buick & Pontiac wre to get the Zeta shared with Holden, while Chevrolet was to get this cheaper version with struts up front instead of SLA. Seems GM instead will be moving everything but Cadillac to the Chevy version of Zeta, making the upcoming VZ based Holden Zeta a car that's likely to be short lived.

The change has left Pontiac flatfooted, and Buick with 2 models replacing 4 (instead of 3), and still no convertible coupe. Pontiac seems to be rushing a design based on Chevy's through, and may actually be out the same time as Chevy's.

Lastly, it seems Holden may be scheduled to export a VE Statesman or Caprice as a Buick. Final decision on this hasn't been made yet, but it's on the table.

[Northstar]

guionM: So we could be seeing a new GTO by the 2009MY and the Camaro could possibly be here for a 2008MY intro?

[Chazman]

Just wanted to a a few cents to this entire thread.

First, Camaro is coming alot quicker than is the norm.

*The chassis is already done. The "Zeta" that was killed last year is the VZ based structure. The suspension components are the same, as is the construction method (modular). Once the VE hits the streets, items like the IRS assembly and the front strut assembly are in production.

*The car isn't going to go to any clinics. This means that there isn't going to be time spent on restyling or tweaking.

*The car isn't going to have to wait for an existing product to complete it's production cycle. Lutz ruled out producing the next Camaro in Canada, leaving one assembly plant: Wilmington. This plant has the capacity for 200,000 annually, but to date is slated for a mere 35,000 Kappas. To top this off, the machinary from the Saturn L is still intact. As soon as the word (and money) is given, we're looking at not much more than 12 months in pulling out the old line and redoing the plant for a Camaro and it's variations.

Not saying by any means it could come out in 12 months, but 18 to 24 isn't out the question. Ed Welburn has said the car would be done quicker than usual if approved, and even Scott has hinted that Camaro isn't going to play by conventional timelines.

Second, about the GTO:

*Pontiac has comitted themselves publically to the GTO... name.

*GTO simply won't be a rebodied and reskined Camaro.

*If made, GTO is going to be a larger car than the Camaro.

*GTO is going to have something unique about it.

GTO has a different code name than Camaro does, and it's also been designed by Holden, while Camaro was done here in North America. In the end, it's possible it will be made here, possibly even in the same plant as the Camaro (the whole idea of Zeta is multiple configurations on the same assembly line). But it won't be a Camaro.

Finally, about Zeta sedans and Cadillac's coupe:

*Cadillac's coupe has been a very long time coming. There's a Business Week article on Rick Wagoner from a few years ago that brushes on it.

*It was held up to be part of the next CTS.

*It's almost certainly going to be alot more than $35,000 starting.

*Nothing is certain as far as the Zeta sedan beyond Chevrolet at this point.

The original idea apparently was that Buick & Pontiac wre to get the Zeta shared with Holden, while Chevrolet was to get this cheaper version with struts up front instead of SLA. Seems GM instead will be moving everything but Cadillac to the Chevy version of Zeta, making the upcoming VZ based Holden Zeta a car that's likely to be short lived.

The change has left Pontiac flatfooted, and Buick with 2 models replacing 4 (instead of 3), and still no convertible coupe. Pontiac seems to be rushing a design based on Chevy's through, and may actually be out the same time as Chevy's.

Lastly, it seems Holden may be scheduled to export a VE Statesman or Caprice as a Buick. Final decision on this hasn't been made yet, but it's on the table.

Pretty much agree 99% Guy. Except now it appears that the Holden VE/Zeta platform will be around for the forseeable future. It now IS the new Global RWD architecture.

[Camino LS6]

The story that I've heard concurs with GuionM to a tee.

[Guest Josh]

Camino remember our convo the other night when we talked about Wilmington & the Camaro & Holden....Dammit I knew it.

[Camino LS6]

This one is so much closer to the surface than usual - you can just feel it coming.

[hyperv6]

Scott S said we would be shocked at what vehicle would share the same assembly line as the Camaro.

I agree with most of what is posted based on what I have heard from principals involved by GM and the the moves GM is makeing.

I wonder where are naysayers are when I started this thread?

[Chazman]

Scott S said we would be shocked at what vehicle would share the same assembly line as the Camaro.

Dude, it sounds like you memorize every syllable that Scott utters.

[hyperv6]

Dude, it sounds like you memorize every syllable that Scott utters. 

You have to save his post and put them together as he can't hit you over the head with everything he knows. You have to pay attention to how he words things to make it all fit together. The great thing is they do fit together to the informed.

By informed I mean those who watch the public moves by GM.

He feeds a little info that if you pay attention to what GM's moves are add up to what really is going on.

It is like parts of a puzzle, Scott gives the pieces and you have to put it together.

The info I have learnd from him in the past has all panned out so it is best to watch what he post over various sites.

[ToniCipriani]

Lastly, it seems Holden may be scheduled to export a VE Statesman or Caprice as a Buick. Final decision on this hasn't been made yet, but it's on the table.

Not sure about NA, but Holden is doing it already. Buick Royaum in China is a Holden Statesman. I would assume any future generations will be the same.

[91z4me]

You have to save his post and put them together as he can't hit you over the head with everything he knows. You have to pay attention to how he words things to make it all fit together. The great thing is they do fit together to the informed.

By informed I mean those who watch the public moves by GM.

He feeds a little info that if you pay attention to what GM's moves are add up to what really is going on.

It is like parts of a puzzle, Scott gives the pieces and you have to put it together.

The info I have learnd from him in the past has all panned out so it is best to watch what he post over various sites.

Charlie knows Scott. He was one of the lucky to get to go to Detroit.

[evok]

*The car isn't going to go to any clinics. This means that there isn't going to be time spent on restyling or tweaking.

There will be restyling and tweaking if the vehicle gets the go ahead once the vehicle surfacing goes through a formability study.

Not saying by any means it could come out in 12 months, but 18 to 24 isn't out the question. Ed Welburn has said the car would be done quicker than usual if approved, and even Scott has hinted that Camaro isn't going to play by conventional timelines.

18 to 24 months, starting from when? Don't hold your breath. Earliest it will be out is in the 3rd quarter 08.

Second, about the GTO:

*Pontiac has comitted themselves publically to the GTO... name.

That is not much comfort. I think the feeling within the General is more big picture than a name plate.

Finally, about Zeta sedans and Cadillac's coupe:

*Cadillac's coupe has been a very long time coming. There's a Business Week article on Rick Wagoner from a few years ago that brushes on it.

*It was held up to be part of the next CTS.

*It's almost certainly going to be alot more than $35,000 starting.

Too early to tell.

*Nothing is certain as far as the Zeta sedan beyond Chevrolet at this point.

That sums it up and even that is uncertain.

Edited February 6, 2006 by evok

[evok]

I wonder where are naysayers are when I started this thread?

Nothing was said that was not already on the table since the summer of 05.

Edited February 6, 2006 by evok

[hyperv6]

Earliest it will be out is in the 3rd quarter 08.

I am glad you at least now admit it is possible to see the Camaro in the fall of 08. Though I know you say it is unlikley. Gee, your not getting soft on us are you? [Ha Ha]

Edited February 7, 2006 by hyperv6

[evok]

I am glad you at least now admit it is possible to see the Camaro in the fall of 08. Though I know you say it is unlikley.  Gee, your not getting soft on us are you? [Ha Ha]

Do the math, 30 months. You might want to go back and actually read my post on the subject. You might learn something.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...opic=4807&st=40

Edited February 7, 2006 by evok

[Ghost Dog]

Scott S said we would be shocked at what vehicle would share the same assembly line as the Camaro.

I agree with most of what is posted based on what I have heard from principals involved by GM and the the moves GM is makeing.

I wonder where are naysayers are when I started this thread?

TRU-FLEX GM's version of Flexible manufacturing.(The Next step beyond C-Flex) Would allow a Flat Rock like Plant. (Mazda 6 FWD/ Mustang RWD)

In theory I think you could have one plant, one line, 3 shifts, and an entirely different vehicle on each shift. Could go Theta,Zeta,Epsilon, on one line I think.

Delta Township is supposed to be the first Tru-Flex plant I think. I would Guesse Springhill,and Oshawa would be next.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Ghost Dog

[hyperv6]

Do the math, 30 months.  You might want to go back and actually read my post on the subject.  You might learn something.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...opic=4807&st=40

Please note HA HA is Humor and not a slight.

I have read your post on what GM can and can't do.

"Please explain how every day sets the clock back 30 months on the Zeta"?

You made this statement on Jan 13 and at that rate where would that leave us on the Camaro being built? I just would like to know more about this time line as I do not understand the timing. Can the time be made up when a decision is made?