Camaro rumors circa 1986

[avant1963]

Amid all the new Camaro pics, rumors and speculations, I found two old articles from the December 1986 Motor Trend, back when FWD Camaro and Mustang rumors ran rampant. The Ford Probe proved the Mustang rumors wrong and the demise of the horrible GM-80 car and the introduction of the Chevy Beretta let the Camaro live on.

You will laugh and cringe and what could have been for our beloved muscle car and see of screwed up GM (and the auto press) was in the 1980s. A 4-wheel drive 1988 IROC-Z? Don't remember that one.

[91z4me]

I love the quote about why the GM80 'drone' is running around. "So Jim Dunne will continue to take pictures of it." :lol:

[hyperv6]

One thing lost in history on the GM 80 is it was the final nail for the3 Fiero.

GM had hoped to build this car on the same line as the Fiero by 1988-89. The Fiero needed a companion car built in the Pontiac MI plant as they were over building the car and were just reaching build totals of 30,000 Fiero's a year, a number which Pontiac origianlly wanted untill they got saddled with a large one car plant and had to justify the cost. The first year built was 140,000 which helpped kill future sales even with out the other problems. How many 2 seater are you going to sell in a limited market?

Anyway WIth the GM 80 canceled on top of the recalls and bad press it gave the people from the Chevy division all they needed to press GM into killing the Fiero.

The sad thing was Pontiac had the 1990 car ready to go in coupe and GTP form.

Why was Chevy worried? Pontiacs new car had 220 HP DOHC V6, a new suspension and a new body that was later adapted to the F body of all things. The car photo'ed below was built in 1986 and has the same gauge panel as the F body used in 1993.

Chevy in the late 80's could not afford to lose sales as the Vette has been threatened with being cut many times in the 80's-90's. Even for the C6 Chevy had to give in for the new Caddy to be a sister car, something they really did not want to do.

Things like this prove GM is it's worse enemy at time's.

Edited December 16, 2005 by hyperv6

[91z4me]

All the design work for the 1990 Fiero was actually completed in 1985. There is a grainy low quality video floating around various places that has engineers and designers talking about and showing off the Fiero Concept and what new features it had. It would be a neat thing to own or see (if it showed up on the net instead of having to buy off of ebay.)

[99camaroSS]

does anyone know what studio designed that fiero in hyperv's post?

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I know-who knows what the Camaro would be like if it went front-drive (and Ford really thought the Probe was a Mustang replacement-HA!)

[Sixty8panther]

...who knows what the Camaro would be like if it went front-drive...

[post="59602"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Let's NOT. Just the thought of it makes me dry-heave. If the F-bodys had gone FWD I might not even be a Camaro fan at all today.

A FWD Camaro or Firebird is the equivelat of a 20 foot stretch limo version of a 1961 Austin Mini. Wrong, useless, ugly, retarded, sacriligious, distrubing and a waste of both human effort & metal.

[hyperv6]

does anyone know what studio designed that fiero in hyperv's post?

[post="59593"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Not sure on the Studio name that did the 1990 but it would be the same as people that did the 4th Gen F body. I know many of the same names that worked on it were the same names that showed up on the Vette and F body designers.

I was at a dinner that John Schinella was a speaker and showed us the slides of the new car when John Middlebrook would not let the 1990 GTP be shown.

John S was mad at John M and brought the slides of the coupe and fastback to show us even with GM not wanting them shown.

John S said he loved this design and carried it over to the 4Th Gen F body and adapted it to that car. He said it was a design too great to throw away.

The red car above was completed in the present state around 1986. It was based on a 1986 Fiero with many upgrades. The design work was started in 1983-84 as this is really the car they wanted in 1984 if GM would have given them the money.

I have the Video mentioned and it just was the engineers explaining how they were going to bolt the car together and what changes were going to be needed on the new body mounts.

There are so many different reason on why the Fiero died is because there were so many things that caused it. Not just one thing did the car in on it's own.

The main factors were

Under funded during development by GM

Not allowed to use the engines they originally wanted

Compromises by Pontiac just to get it built

Built in a plant that was way under capacity

Built too many cars the first few years to justify the plant.

The car GM 80 being canceled leaving no other car to share the plant with.

Not sharing the car with Opel or Chevy.

Bad press some fair and some not

Recalls

Hate by those in GM who tried to stope the car before it was built 5 times

Chevy being threatened by the loss of Vette sales they could not afford to lose.

There are more I can list but I think you get the point there was enough blame to be shared all around.

There are many with in GM today that are afraid to peak on this as there are still many hard feeling with in GM today on this and they will not speak publicly on this.

When they killed the car Pontiac was in the middle between the UAW they made deals with and GM who opposed much of the program all along.

It would make a good book someday and is a classic case to show why GM is it's own worst enemy at times. Imagine wha they could do if they worked all together?

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Let's NOT. Just the thought of it makes me dry-heave. If the F-bodys had gone FWD I might not even be a Camaro fan at all today.

A FWD Camaro or Firebird is the equivelat of a 20 foot stretch limo version of a 1961 Austin Mini. Wrong, useless, ugly, retarded, sacriligious, distrubing and a waste of both human effort & metal.

[post="59673"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Can I get an amen here?!

[fbodfather]

I remember sitting in a meeting one day with John Heinricy (Fcar chief engineer and now with GM Performance Division) and he made a comment that the ugliest thing he could think of was the front tires of a Camaro doing a burnout.............AND HOW!!!!

[Guest Josh]

Not sure on the Studio name that did the 1990 but it would be the same as people that did the 4th Gen F body. I know many of the same names that worked on it were the same names that showed up on the Vette and F body designers.

I was at a dinner that John Schinella was a speaker and showed us the slides of the new car  when John Middlebrook would not let the 1990 GTP be shown.

John S was mad at John M and brought the slides of the coupe and fastback to show us even with GM not wanting them shown.

John S said he loved this design and carried it over to the 4Th Gen F body and adapted it to that car. He said it was a design too great to throw away.

The red car above was completed in the present state around 1986. It was based on a 1986 Fiero with many upgrades. The design work was started in 1983-84 as this is really the car they wanted in 1984 if GM would have given them the money.

I have the Video mentioned and it just was the engineers explaining how they were going to bolt the car together and what changes were going to be needed on the new body mounts.

There are so many different reason on why the Fiero died is because there were so many things that caused it. Not just one thing did the car in on it's own.

The main factors were

Under funded during development by GM

Not allowed to use the engines they originally wanted

Compromises by Pontiac just to get it built

Built in a plant that was way under capacity

Built too many cars the first few years to justify the plant.

The car GM 80 being canceled leaving no other car to share the plant with.

Not sharing the car with Opel or Chevy.

Bad press some fair and some not

Recalls

Hate by those in GM who tried to stope the car before it was built  5 times

Chevy being threatened by the loss of Vette sales they could not afford to lose.

There are more I can list but I think you get the point there was enough blame to be shared all around.

There are many with in GM today that are afraid to peak on this as there are still many hard feeling with in GM today on this and they will not speak publicly on this.

When they killed the car Pontiac was in the middle between the UAW they made deals with and GM who opposed much of the program all along.

It would make a good book someday and is a classic case to show why GM is it's own worst enemy at times. Imagine wha they could do if they worked all together?

[post="59729"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Read. The. History.

I've heard the Chevy boys have done a great job of demolishing a "Solstice" Corvette as well.

From what I understand, the Solstice Corvette was sick in every aspect before the plug was pulled.

[NOS2006]

I know-who knows what the Camaro would be like if it went front-drive (and Ford really thought the Probe was a Mustang replacement-HA!)

[post="59602"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It'd look like the Monte minus the fender lines.

[hyperv6]

Read. The. History.

I've heard the Chevy boys have done a great job of demolishing a "Solstice" Corvette as well.

From what I understand, the Solstice Corvette was sick in every aspect before the plug was pulled.

[post="59942"][/post]

You lost me on this one????? Solstice Corvette??

I know the Chevy guys are not real happy with the Mallet Solstice per the recent Autoweek story. But with only 100 units made it's a non issue for the Vette boys.


As for the GM 80, if it was built the Camaro name would have suffered a fate worse than the Mustang did on the Mustang II. It may have tarnished the Name beyond any future use.


Also in the late 80's early 90's there was a car completed that looked much like a disguised car as shown above. Pontiac only showed it at the eyes on design show in I think 1994.

It was called a GTO and carried the 4th Gen nose of the Firebird with large Barretta wheels. It was reported as a FWD car in the Pontiac Entusiast Story by Jeff Dennison of the GM design center.

The car did not look as bad as the mules shown but the FWD would have been the curse of death for the name.

The 80's got a little weird, anyone remember the twin V6 Citation? It was a test mule to see if a twin engine Vette was a possibility?

Edited December 17, 2005 by hyperv6

[ocnblu]

I agree, a FWD F car would have sold like ice on a glacier, and it would have completely destroyed the Camaro and Firebird names forever.

[aaaantoine]

That 2-engine Citation looks like it could be a lot of fun to drive. :P

[Sixty8panther]

There's a guy with a twin-engined Turbo SAAB that's pretty cool too. Gotta love those insane Sweeds. :)

[Flybrian]

Well, my twin-engine SAAB beats your twin-engine SAAB any day.

[Sixty8panther]

You Sly Bastard! :P

[Guest YellowJacket894]

God, if a Baretta became a Camaro, it would be a disaster. Just the thought makes me wanna cringe. Remember how reliable that hunk-of-junk Baretta was? Bahhh...

[AM6_Cutlass]

I'm glad history didn't take that direction, but I don't think it would have been a total disaster (disaster to the Camaro name only). The Beretta sold great in its first couple years, so I don't see why a Beretta badged as Camaro would not have sold just as well. Camaro traditionalists would have hated it, but someone would have liked it. It's just a name, and considering that Beretta and Camaro are both currently out of production, it wouldn't have been the WORST thing GM ever did.

God, if a Baretta became a Camaro, it would be a disaster. Just the thought makes me wanna cringe. Remember how reliable that hunk-of-junk Baretta was? Bahhh...

[post="60225"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Actually, my g/f would still be driving her '90 Beretta GT (3.1/3-speed auto) if she didn't total it this past April. Ran great, and still had a great body (before the accident :rolleyes: ). Interior was fair with some dash peel (much less than my grandfather's '93 Lumina had three years ago), but no issues with reliability and ran better than my 3100 Cutlass. Edited December 20, 2005 by AM6_Cutlass

[knightfan26917]

It'd look like the Monte minus the fender lines.

Aye.

There's an imagine I didn't need....heh.

*sighs*

Best not get me started...he he heh.


Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker
MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/
Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html
"My time here is over" ... Patty Lovelace ... 'How Can I Help You Say Goodbye?'

[hyperv6]

Aye.

There's an imagine I didn't need....heh.

*sighs*

Best not get me started...he he heh.
Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker
MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/
Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html
"My time here is over" ... Patty Lovelace ... 'How Can I Help You Say Goodbye?'

[post="61214"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Dont take what you see as what it was going to look like. These were still well covered and did not show what it really looked like.

The Pontiac version was showed with a GTO name on it on one that I know of and it was a cross of 4th gen Firebird nose and bits of the 1990 Monte Carlo concept car.

It was not as bad as what was pictured but it was not as good as the 4th Gen and was still FWD.

I have tried to find pic's of the GTO that were in the High Performance Pontiac story about a year ago and have not seen them on the web. I did find a small pic in a Pontiac Enthusiast from 1994 when it was shown at Eyes on Design in Michigan. In that story it told it was a FWD. I assume that it was the still born GM 80 in show car form.

[Sixty8panther]

God, if a Baretta became a Camaro, it would be a disaster. Just the thought makes me wanna cringe. Remember how reliable that hunk-of-junk Baretta was? Bahhh...

[post="60225"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well I know of one Beretta that got used and abused from 1988 to 2004 and racked up 288,000 miles. Of course it could have kept going longer if it was not sold to an abusive kid who beat the piss out of it in a week. First owner nurses it for 16 years and over a quarter of a million miles while the second owner blows the engine up in like 1000 miles.


But that's not the point. Even if the Camaro was based on the Eldorado and had Northstar power it would still suck as a Camaro. The possibility of a FWD & a transverse mounted engine in a Camaro makes me nauseous. Chrysler is just now redeming itself and cleansing the Charger name of the FWD crimes against Muscle cars that the 80s caused.

Thank God the FWD Charger was so damn forgetable that one generation later most are crushed and gone while todays kids think the last 2dr Chager was a big ugly RWD Cordoba rebadge job. A pretty non-spectacular car itself but a whole lot better than a four cylinder FWD one.

[3-Point-Slow]

You guys will love these pics then:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=429596

There are quite a few there, keep scrolling til you see no more. Edited January 8, 2006 by 3-Point-Slow

[!!!TED!!!]

You guys will love these pics then:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=429596

There are quite a few there, keep scrolling til you see no more.

[post="69661"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The last pic on the right in post #4 is the GM 80. :lol: