GM vs Toyota

[tama z71]

Foreign Autos Strangle Domestic Economy During an interview taken in the 1950s, former General Motors CEO Charles Wilson delivered the famous quote, “What’s good for GM is good for America.” Fifty years later, that bold statement holds as true as ever. However, 50 years later, GM is no longer the automotive juggernaut that it once was, and what is now bad for GM is proving to be bad for America, too. Whatever the cause for decline in American automotive dominance, GM has lost nearly half the market share it had thirty years ago, and that number continues to fall today. The losses have reached into the pockets of GM’s longtime rivals as well, as Ford Motor has experienced staggering losses and Chrysler was bought out by German based Daimler-Benz. The sweeping changes in power in the U.S. auto market have affected all members of the Detroit Big 3 (GM, Ford, DCX), but the happenings within the industry are best paraphrased by the current battle for sales supremacy taking place between America’s GM and Toyota, the darling of the automotive media. GM, known by most citizens as the Motown dinosaur seemingly incapable of producing an automobile on the same level of quality as the vaunted Japanese, is facing falling sales and a possible bankruptcy. Across from GM stands Toyota, the shiny, happy carmaker which will save the world with angelic gas-sippers that emit exhaust not in the form of harmful greenhouse gases, but in the form of hugs, kisses and baby farts. Sift through the sarcasm-laden hyperbole, and the point I am making is the general public is purely unaware of what kind of negative impact supporting foreign-sourced automotive companies has on the U.S. economy. For the many who are unaware of how large an impact GM has on the nation, consider this: during a 1998 labor dispute, GM shut down all North American operations for almost two months. During that fiscal quarter, the economic growth rate of the entire United States fell by one full percentage point. There is not another private company in the entire nation that can come near to having that kind of national economic influence. “That doesn’t matter, Toyota builds most of their cars in America now, anyways.” Wrong! Many would assume sparse amounts of foreign manufacturing coming to the States would negate the amount of domestic manufacturing taking place here. The simple fact of the matter is Toyota’s U.S. based output is dismissable compared to the production numbers coming out of GM. Toyota boasts eight North American manufacturing plants; General Motors has more than 50. If the above statement is not enough to satisfy one’s need for patriotic buying habits, consider the following statement. According to a June 2005 GM press release, the average GM vehicle is assembled with parts that are 86 percent domestically produced. Toyota’s domestic parts content falls well below 40 percent. Score one for the General. “Yeah? Well Toyota is creating American jobs. You can’t say they’re bad for the economy,” one might think. According to a recent press release from GMinsidenews.com, it is estimated for every percentage point of U.S. market share Toyota gains, 30,000 American jobs are lost from domestic manufacturers. Thirty-thousand is also the current amount of people Toyota employs in America. Toyota presently owns a 12 percent share of the domestic market. If Toyota were to reimburse the American workers it displaced and create 30,000 jobs for each percent of owned market share, it would need to immediately create 330,000 more American jobs to fill the void of the ones it eliminated. Even with a work force at 360,000 strong, Toyota would only have over one-third of the population of Americans who find employment in GM. For the math impaired, GM is estimated to directly or indirectly employ almost one million Americans. GM alone employs more people in America than Toyota, Honda and Nissan combined. Additionally, and as a final blow to the notion that it is economically acceptable to buy a Japanese car, GM’s contributions to the North American GNP are four times that of Toyota. More jobs, more industry and more influence. The effect of domestic automakers on the livelihood of Americans is far greater than the reach of Asia, Inc. (Toyota, Honda, Nissan). Current trends in car buying favor the foreign makes, and the American automotive media itself is foreign-biased, almost to the point of automotive propaganda. Americans, as much as the companies themselves, are responsible for the downfall of the auto industry. If Americans continue to neglect the last of the great domestic industrial giants, and allow it to follow the path of American steel and electronics markets, the nation may lose its second largest employer. Americans are driving many a Toyohondassan adorned with a red, white and blue ribbon magnet adorning the trunk. It is shameful to think those who would so readily parade their patriotism undermine it by displaying it in the wrong place.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

perhaps you have not had an economic class? its not that i agree with people buying toyotas but your argument is a bit flawed. If the US automakers were to fall then the economy would of course balance itself out, in the short run things would be grim... but then again thats how capitalism and free-trade works. But.... like i said i support GM

[CARBIZ]

Strange way to show support! I am almost getting tired of this arguing. If you cannot see that spending $30,000 on the second largest purchase you will ever make, and sending that money to Japan, is going to damage the American economy then, sir, you need a lesson in economics. For the record, I am in favor of Free Trade, except that Japan doesn't practice it. The U.S. buys something like 17 million vehicles a year. Even if we conservatively work out the average price at $20,000 per unit (and I am sure that number is very low, considering all the trucks sold!), that works out to be 340 BILLION dollars every year. Even if half that money leaves the U.S. in the form of profits and parts bought from Japan, that is a lot of money. Add that to the current U.S current account deficit and you have a real formula for disaster! I just shake my head at all this. I am Canadian and I can see quite clearly how dangerous it is to by Japanese. Just look at what they did to the electronics industry 30 years ago. If you can't see that this is a relentless, unerring juggernaut, aided and abetted by the U.S. media, well....history will prove me right.

[Sixty8panther]

I hate Japanese cars because most of them are over rated turd buckets. The whole economic benefit to buying American is just icing on top of the cake. For what it's worth I think there's a better GM car for the price when anyone ever talks about any Japanese car value. For Instance: I love the Infiniti G35 but I'm not spending $30 for a nice RWD V6 car when I can have a Bitchin Pontiac GTO for the money with a V8. Most Japanese over priced four cylinder cars (Corollas, Civics, Sentras, Lancer etc.) are not as cool looking as the Cobalt. The Mazda RX8 is wicked cool and kind of exotic, but the Rotary engine is not worth all the extra money over a Solstice, and if money is no object then a Corvette embarasses anything the Japanese or Europeans can cook up. The Tahoe/Suburban and the rest of the GM full size SUVs are still the best value for the money IMHO. As far as pickup trucks go we all know the Japanese are still not runnig on all eight cylinders. Te point is if the typical person stopped assuming that GM cars suck and just gave them a chance they'd buy GM for a lot of reasons, the least of which being the economy.

[Hudson]

Foreign Autos Strangle Domestic Economy

During an interview taken in the 1950s, former General Motors CEO Charles Wilson delivered the famous quote, “What’s good for GM is good for America.” Fifty years later, that bold statement holds as true as ever. However, 50 years later, GM is no longer the automotive juggernaut that it once was, and what is now bad for GM is proving to be bad for America, too.

Do you know anything about this famous quote? It's one of the most mis-quoted quotes of all time...and you're trying to prove it.

In a confirmation hearing for a GM exec to help in the war effort, the exec was asked if he could make a decision for America that might have a negative effect on GM. His reply was "what's good for America is good for GM and vice-versa." It wasn't about GM helping America.

Strange way to show support!
  I am almost getting tired of this arguing.  If you cannot see that spending $30,000 on the second largest purchase you will ever make, and sending that money to Japan, is going to damage the American economy then, sir, you need a lesson in economics.
  For the record, I am in favor of Free Trade, except that Japan doesn't practice it. 
  The U.S. buys something like 17 million vehicles a year.  Even if we conservatively work out the average price at $20,000 per unit (and I am sure that number is very low, considering all the trucks sold!), that works out to be 340 BILLION dollars every year.  Even if half that money leaves the U.S. in the form of profits and parts bought from Japan, that is a lot of money.  Add that to the current U.S current account deficit and you have a real formula for disaster!
  I just shake my head at all this.  I am Canadian and I can see quite clearly how dangerous it is to by Japanese.  Just look at what they did to the electronics industry 30 years ago.  If you can't see that this is a relentless, unerring juggernaut, aided and abetted by the U.S. media, well....history will prove me right.

History won't prove you right.

Your numbers are a bit conservative, but that's beside the point. If HALF of the money spend on vehicles left "the US if the form of profits and parts bought from Japan," that would be a HUGE increase over what it is today.

Currently, fewer than half of the vehicles sold in the US are not built in North America. Among the 14.3 million vehicles sold in the US in the first 10 months of 2005, 1.5 million were built in Japan...and 11.5 million were built in North America. So this means that of the 4.6 million Japanese-brand vehicles sold in the US, 1/3 weren't built in North America. Of the 3 million that were built in North America, they average around 50% (or more) North American content. Using your estimate of $20,000 per vehicle, you need to take 10% off the top ($2,000) to get to invoice price, another conservatively estimated $1,000 for distribution and miscellaneous other costs, and we're down to about $17,000 that would "leave" the country.

So your estimate of $340 billion dollars heading back to Japan has been reduced by 92.5%. And if you were to add in the amount of North American-built vehicle parts that are sourced from Japan (assuming 50%), you're still off by 85%.

And stop blaming the media. They're not at fault here. They are car enthusiasts and they call them like they see them. The Camry isn't the best-selling car in the US because Car & Driver likes them because....wait, didn't C&D rank the Camry FOURTH out of four recently?

[tama z71]

hudson, you made some well calculated and informative arguments, but to think that the automotive media is a bunch of purist drivers who favor cars without any predetermined favoritism is blind faith in their ability to be objective.

[CARBIZ]

I beg to differ: I do blame the media. They cannot get through a single article on any GM product without negatively comparing it to something Japanese. The Toronto Star has even started referring to Toyota as the "#1 auto manufacturer by market valuation." WTF! Although true, why would they buck the normal method of by volume of units? Or GM's tailgate problem on 900,000 units being front page news, yet Toyota's suspension problems on 800,000 trucks (a far greater proportion of sales and a far more serious problem) being buried in the business section? How about an article about the "new" Freestar where the "journalist" takes along a woman who had 2 Windstars and hated them? Most (certainly not all) journalists rank rate vehicles based on what they themselves want to drive - and we all know what snobs they are turning out to be. Gotta have a 5 spd or 6 spd automatic! Why? The article said so. What, the Malibu doesn't come in a standard shift? Must be a bad car! No soft touchy plastic on the dash of an Impala? Who gives a crap? The journalists are comparing everything to an Audi, for Gawd's sake! Any idiot can see the Cobalt is twice the car as the Corolla, but you wouldn't know that from the gushing reviews of the Corolla. And I would know, I drive Corollas and Cobalts all the time! I've used this analogy time and time again: The New York Movie Critics have tirelessly voted Citizen Kane as the "greatest American movie" ever made. Fine. HOw many people have gone out and rented or bought the DVD, only to realize it is one of the driest, darkest POS ever made? But that is what the movie critics like - hardly indicative of what the American public would want to watch if they had a choice. Now before you jump all over that remark, the American car buying public DOESN'T have a choice. They are being bombarded with bullshit and misinformation all over the dial. The internet is only making things worse. I see it all the time: fresh off the plane from wherever, they don't have a clue what car to buy, but every damned article they read shouts TOYOTA. What do they know? They buy the car because that is what they are told to. Look at VW, as another example. Their cars are crappy - have been for many years. They break down, they are tempermental and a fortune to maintain; however, the media loves them because they handle and peform great. JD Powers reflects how badly VW's fortunes have fallen, yet you ask people and they will say that VWs are a great car? Why, because that is what they were told! Of course, GM isn't faultless in this mess, but I work in the trenches and I have to deal with people who are being bombarded with messages that GM builds unattractive, gas guzzling vehicles (the National Post just passed this quote along from DesRosier Marketing today). What disappoints me most is that GM has been unable (dare I say unwilling?) to combat this problem of perception versus reality.

[Hudson]

I beg to differ:  I do blame the media.  They cannot get through a single article on any GM product without negatively comparing it to something Japanese.  The Toronto Star has even started referring to Toyota as the "#1 auto manufacturer by market valuation."  WTF!  Although true, why would they buck the normal method of by volume of units?
  Or GM's tailgate problem on 900,000 units being front page news, yet Toyota's suspension problems on 800,000 trucks (a far greater proportion of sales and a far more serious problem) being buried in the business section?
  How about an article about the "new" Freestar where the "journalist" takes along a woman who had 2 Windstars and hated them?
  Most (certainly not all) journalists rank rate vehicles based on what they themselves want to drive - and we all know what snobs they are turning out to be.
  Gotta have a 5 spd or 6 spd automatic!  Why?  The article said so.  What, the Malibu doesn't come in a standard shift?  Must be a bad car!  No soft touchy plastic on the dash of an Impala? Who gives a crap?  The journalists are comparing everything to an Audi, for Gawd's sake!
  Any idiot can see the Cobalt is twice the car as the Corolla, but you wouldn't know that from the gushing reviews of the Corolla.  And I would know, I drive Corollas and Cobalts all the time!
  I've used this analogy time and time again:  The New York Movie Critics have tirelessly voted Citizen Kane as the "greatest American movie" ever made.  Fine.  HOw many people have gone out and rented or bought the DVD, only to realize it is one of the driest, darkest POS ever made?  But that is what the movie critics like - hardly indicative of what the American public would want to watch if they had a choice. 
  Now before you jump all over that remark, the American car buying public DOESN'T have a choice.  They are being bombarded with bullshit and misinformation all over the dial.  The internet is only making things worse.  I see it all the time:  fresh off the plane from wherever, they don't have a clue what car to buy, but every damned article they read shouts TOYOTA.  What do they know?  They buy the car because that is what they are told to.
  Look at VW, as another example.  Their cars are crappy - have been for many years.  They break down, they are tempermental and a fortune to maintain; however, the media loves them because they handle and peform great.  JD Powers reflects how badly VW's fortunes have fallen, yet you ask people and they will say that VWs are a great car?  Why, because that is what they were told!
  Of course, GM isn't faultless in this mess, but I work in the trenches and I have to deal with people who are being bombarded with messages that GM builds unattractive, gas guzzling vehicles (the National Post just passed this quote along from DesRosier Marketing today).  What disappoints me most is that GM has been unable (dare I say unwilling?) to combat this problem of perception versus reality.

[post="46840"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Oh...where to start. Toyota is the largest (by corporate value) vehicle producer on the planet. GM is the largest seller of FLEET vehicles on earth. Why can't you compare the size of two companies by their value? They do in EVERY industry...including automotive.

Recalls do seem to get more press when they come from the Big3, but the Big3 have more and more fantastic recalls. Back in the 1990s, I remember Japanese recalls getting HUGE press. Now that GM and Ford are trying to restore their name in the public's eye, they need nearly flawless products...and it's not happening.

Have you driven the Windstar or Freestar? They were awful when the second-generation Windstar was introduced...and the Freestar is a bandaid on that. When you compare Ford and GM minivans to Chrysler and Toyota and Honda...they deserve all the bad press they get.

Just because YOU prefer the Cobalt to the Corolla...don't put down Corolla buyers by calling them idiots. ANY idiot can see that a Corolla will hold its value better than a Cobalt. Any idiot can see that a Corolla has a better reliability reputation than the Cobalt (or its predecessors). THESE are the reasons why people by Corollas. I do not call these owners idiots.

Movie critics cannot be compared to car buff book writers. Movie critics (I do know a few) are movie snobs. Car writers (I know even more of them) love to drive cars. Sure, they don't write articles about how well you can pack the kids in the rear and they prefer a good handling car over an average handling car, but how many people (car fanatics excepted) follow the opinion of car writers?

And let's talk about misinformation. Reading this site, these car fanatics (people I would assume would know truth from fiction) don't have a clue. And they like to spread their own misinformation. I understand, most of the time, you're preaching to the choir here. But some of us actually have an open mind when it comes to cars and don't need smoke blown up us about the latest and greatest GM product. Some of us can make an accurate decision on our own.

Odd...but VW's aren't all that tempramental...don't "break down" any more than the average car brand, and the media loves them because their interiors (the place where most owners spend most of their time) are among the highest quality on the market...and the cars are fun to drive.

I work in the industry myself and it amazes me how little other people in the industry know about cars. And it amazes me how poorly GM treats the media...like they're the enemy, when in fact they could be GM's biggest ally. Nobody's told GM this.

[CARBIZ]

Good for you, but our company owns a Toyota store and a GM store and I can tell you from real world, every day experience: Toyota has just as many bodies buried, they just manage to bury them a little deeper. And have you ever seen a Jetta or Gold with two headlights working? Electrical problems galore. I have had people 6 months into their Jetta leases trying to get out of them. Resale value? Compare transaction prices (which the industry jealously guards), but we sell both Toyota and GM. Let me spell this out again: Actual selling price of a 2004 Cavalier $12,999, plus freight taxes and fees. a/c automatic, Cd. In our market (Toronto) you were looking at $16,410 "on the road." The same 2004 Corolla was going to set you back $18,700 plus freight, taxes and fees, for just a hair under $23,000. What is the true resale value of a 20001 Cavalier today (remembering, too, that it is a dropped nameplate now): $5-6,000. And a 2001 Corolla? $11,000. Magic? Wow! You lost $7,500 on the Cavalier and $7,700 on the Corolla. Factor in higher insurance and maintenance (no Dexcool or Dexron in a Corolla) and the numbers will get farther apart. Redbook, black book, blue book - all BS. Dealers, who deal in the real world every day, don't even use them any more.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Oh...where to start. Toyota is the largest (by corporate value) vehicle producer on the planet. GM is the largest seller of FLEET vehicles on earth. Why can't you compare the size of two companies by their value? They do in EVERY industry...including automotive.

Recalls do seem to get more press when they come from the Big3, but the Big3 have more and more fantastic recalls. Back in the 1990s, I remember Japanese recalls getting HUGE press. Now that GM and Ford are trying to restore their name in the public's eye, they need nearly flawless products...and it's not happening.

Have you driven the Windstar or Freestar? They were awful when the second-generation Windstar was introduced...and the Freestar is a bandaid on that. When you compare Ford and GM minivans to Chrysler and Toyota and Honda...they deserve all the bad press they get.

Just because YOU prefer the Cobalt to the Corolla...don't put down Corolla buyers by calling them idiots. ANY idiot can see that a Corolla will hold its value better than a Cobalt. Any idiot can see that a Corolla has a better reliability reputation than the Cobalt (or its predecessors). THESE are the reasons why people by Corollas. I do not call these owners idiots.

Movie critics cannot be compared to car buff book writers. Movie critics (I do know a few) are movie snobs. Car writers (I know even more of them) love to drive cars. Sure, they don't write articles about how well you can pack the kids in the rear and they prefer a good handling car over an average handling car, but how many people (car fanatics excepted) follow the opinion of car writers?

And let's talk about misinformation. Reading this site, these car fanatics (people I would assume would know truth from fiction) don't have a clue. And they like to spread their own misinformation. I understand, most of the time, you're preaching to the choir here. But some of us actually have an open mind when it comes to cars and don't need smoke blown up us about the latest and greatest GM product. Some of us can make an accurate decision on our own.

Odd...but VW's aren't all that tempramental...don't "break down" any more than the average car brand, and the media loves them because their interiors (the place where most owners spend most of their time) are among the highest quality on the market...and the cars are fun to drive.

I work in the industry myself and it amazes me how little other people in the industry know about cars. And it amazes me how poorly GM treats the media...like they're the enemy, when in fact they could be GM's biggest ally. Nobody's told GM this.

[post="46972"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well said.

Heaven forbid the GM fanatics on these boards say something fair and unbiased.

It's always the same message being preached .... "Toyota is the devil, the media is evil ... GM makes class leading products ... GM is going to knock Toyota out ... all hail Wagoner" etc.

There's a difference between being an enthusiast or supporter of GM, and being a fanatic of GM.

[Guest Josh]

I've been saying for a long, long time that sites like this would help General Motors and go a long way. Perfect example. When we were given media access two years ago our traffic here on the site was sick. We could very easily get 15k hits on a somewhat important news story. I remember a perticular strech when we were so close to having to shut the site down because the hosting bill was out of control! Walt however shouldered on and paid the bill. My e-mail in box was full from people with questions, opinions, thoughts, you name it, we received it. Then BAM! No more media access. No more returned phone calls. No more nothing. Our hits dropped, little to no e-mails from General Motors. Why? Because General Motors took away access to us, which reached a different medium in customers. What I am saying may be far fetched, but it's true. When GM invited us to drive their '03 concepts at the Proving Grounds, it peaked peoples interests. We're independantly owned and not a corporate entity. GM needs to realize this but have unfortunatly not yet done so. Hopefully with C&G being invited to the NAIAS showings from Mr. Settlemire, the tide can begin to change. If not, it'll be just one huge party :)

[Hudson]

I've been saying for a long, long time that sites like this would help General Motors and go a long way.

I'm all for the American automotive industry...especially since I work in it. But blowing smoke up GM's rear isn't going to help them compete. Pointing out what they can make better (and pointing out what works, hoping that they won't change that) can help.

With any luck, GM and Ford will learn how to make cars people want to buy (and buy again...and recommend) before they become a branch of another automaker or close up shop altogether.

THIS should be the goal.

[Sixty8panther]

AS far as the Media it's the back-handed complements that bug me the most: It's like the typical writeup on any great GM vehicle HAS to include a side note about how it's unexpected and an anomole. "Wow, this Z06 is such an incredible Corvette, who knew a brand taht makes such useless and decrepid cars as Cavaliers and Trackers could make something that doesn't suck" --- or --- "Refinement, style and class... the new STS has it all and makes for a great vehicle, amazing considering the kind of cars Cadillac was making just a few short years ago. The new DTS, aimed at the Geriatric crowd is the only other Cadillac that's worth it's asking price." we've all seen them. <_<

[razoredge]

its obvious from the posts of Hudson and GMrebirth where they are comming from. Buy Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundia and Kia. To bad your not hooked up to recieve pay for all your anti Domestic pro asain propaganda.

[turbo200]

And it's obvious from your posts where you are coming from....narrow-minded, uninformed, stubborn, arrogant.. Have you ever sat in and compared the competition's cars to know where GM stands in the consumer products world? This is what it comes down to, they are selling a product, and the product needs to be worthy to the consumer. In order to reach the consumer you have to test what is selling and make something better than that. Honda and Toyota have cars that are benchmarks in many areas, GM is always one generation behind. The current Malibu has an interior design/quality that matches the 2000 era Camry. It's a damn shame GM works so hard to sabotage its own car makes. Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, Pontiac all have a glorious history that deserve cars befitting of the highest standards in quality and DESIGN. GO away with the blandness.

[razoredge]

turbo - right there buddy ! Im not ignorant nor narrowminded and you damn well better bet Im arrogant and stubborn about being American. I've read these posts and they are nothing more nor nothing less than the same Asian promotional bull comming from the media, and those such as yourself that post here and claims every car line GM has or has had was junk . Now because I's point that out, ya's wansts ta starts a callin me names ? Lets get the general public to view this forum to see what kind of cars to buy. Well it wont take you fellas long to turn them away. Theres a handful of GM enthous here and you guys are going to turn us too or die tryin, its quite clear to me. ya know I had to put a reman alt. in my 327,000 mile 1990 Olds last month, damn POS ! now I had to put new tank & sending unit in other 1990 194,000 mile Olds wagon this week, damn rust, that would have never happened if GM had of been doing their job ! My 97 Olds 110,000 miles, damn thing just wont break, damn junk GM's been making these last 20 years ! I bet its just about to need front brake pads, stupid junk ! What the hell kind of " narrow-minded, uninformed, stubborn, arrogant.. " person would put up with that crap. <_<

[siegen]

I hate Japanese cars because most of them are over rated turd buckets.

For what it's worth I think there's a better GM car for the price when anyone ever talks about any Japanese car value.

Most Japanese over priced four cylinder cars are not as cool looking as the Cobalt.

Well aren't you just full of opinion and insightful comments today? :P

I love the Infiniti G35 but I'm not spending $30 for a nice RWD V6 car when I can have a Bitchin Pontiac GTO for the money with a V8.

Some people need 4 doors. The 350z would be more comparable with the GTO. Not that I like the 350z.

The Mazda RX8 is wicked cool and kind of exotic, but the Rotary engine is not worth all the extra money over a Solstice, and if money is no object then a Corvette embarasses anything the Japanese or Europeans can cook up.

Again, some people need 4 doors, or want something bigger. The Solstice's main competition is the Mazda Miata Mx-5, not the RX8. The Corvette is a nice car, but a much less expensive Mitsubishi Evolution MR will do just about anything it does, and a lot more.

The Tahoe/Suburban and the rest of the GM full size SUVs are still the best value for the money IMHO.

When compared to what?

As far as pickup trucks go we all know the Japanese are still not runnig on all eight cylinders.

Again, that magic number 8. It seems like a lot of people are fixated on that number. Anything less is weak, anything more is exotic. 8 cylinders is the only way to be american! Edited November 25, 2005 by siegen

[CaddyXLR-V]

The Corvette is a nice car, but a much less expensive Mitsubishi Evolution MR will do just about anything it does, and a lot more.

[post="48418"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I get your arguement, but lets compare apples to apples. If the Evo was all that and more, why would there be Porsches, Corvettes, Vipers, and even NSXs?

[siegen]

I get your arguement, but lets compare apples to apples. If the Evo was all that and more, why would there be Porsches, Corvettes, Vipers, and even NSXs?

[post="48425"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The NSX is a little underpowered for its price, but it's not a drag car. It is designed for the track, and at any reasonably technical track, it will hold its own or beat the Corvette (now the Type R version, that's a different story). The NSX has had virtually no changes since it was released in 1990. Each engine is hand built, and not shared on any other platform, so it is expensive to produce. The upside is you get a car that will last much longer than any normal assembly line built car will (engine balancing and fine tuning of parts), and you get the pride of owning one, as it is far more rare than any other sub-100k car. I actually see more 360 Modena's than I do NSX's.

The Viper vs. Corvette argument has gone on forever, and it seems like a new comparison pops up every other week in some magazine or car show (including Fifth Gear). I don't really know, I like the Viper better in my own opinion, but the Corvette offers more performance for your money (they are a lot more common as well). As for Porsches, I think they're mainly for the name and prestige of owning one, similar to the NSX, except they're much more common.

When it comes to the Evo, it's fast, AWD, inexpensive, and even has 4 doors, but it probably won't appeal to the people buying those other cars. It looks odd, I don't know if I really like it or not, and of course it's 4 doors (which is BAD!).

And the thing that really seperates the Corvette and Evo from the other supercars, is the fact that they're just so common, and relatively inexpensive. The reason the other more expensive, yet seemingly slower cars, are still around, is because of this.

[turbo200]

turbo - right there buddy ! Im not ignorant nor narrowminded and you damn well better bet Im arrogant and stubborn about being American.

I've read these posts and they are nothing more nor nothing less than the same Asian promotional bull comming from the media, and those such as yourself that post here and claims every car line GM has or has had was junk .

Now because I's point that out, ya's wansts ta starts a callin me names ?

Lets get the general public to view this forum to see what kind of cars to buy. Well it wont take you fellas long to turn them away. Theres a handful of GM enthous here and you guys are going to turn us too or die tryin, its quite clear to me.

ya know I had to put a reman alt. in my 327,000 mile 1990 Olds last month, damn POS !

now I had to put new tank & sending unit in other 1990 194,000 mile Olds wagon this week, damn rust, that would have never happened if GM had of been doing their job !

My 97 Olds 110,000 miles, damn thing just wont break, damn junk GM's been making these last 20 years ! I bet its just about to need front brake pads, stupid junk !

What the hell kind of "  narrow-minded, uninformed, stubborn, arrogant..
" person would put up with that crap.

<_<

[post="48400"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

let me get this out first. If GM didn't produce "good" cars, there would be no more GM. There would be no loyal customers. There would be no fleet customers. There would be nothing.

Unfortunately, good enough is no longer enough. Americans, from the same country you are from, are choosing European and Japanese cars in droves every year increasing more and more, while GM decreases every year. Let me tell ya, they are not coming to cheers and gears and taking turbo200s advice and going out to buy _________import.

I called you uninformed based on your knowledge of automobiles. Anyone who says GM's cars are up to ALL standards of the Japanese and Europeans, I will call them ignorant, without a doubt. I don't mean to offend, and I don't think you took it that way, so good, but I am no smoke blower.

Fortunately the good products will be coming very soon. Some have already come out, HHR, Solstice I can say are pretty much at the level of the competition. GM needs to leave the compromises behind to impress me.

Until then, you can be stubborn and undiscerning....

[Eric Bryant]

its obvious from the posts of Hudson and GMrebirth where they are comming from.

Buy Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundia and Kia.

To bad your not hooked up to recieve pay for all your anti Domestic pro asain propaganda.

Actually, I saw Hudson make the comment that he works in the industry. I'm not sure where or in what capacity, but for those of us in the supplied-component business, the transplants (imports) have been very good to us. So, in a roundabout fashion, many of us are "hooked up to receive pay" for any anti-domestic propaganda we may be spreading. If I were coming at this from a purely selfish standpoint, I'd tell you to buy an Accord over a G6 since my bonus is tied to profit, and my employeer makes far more money from the former than the latter. A better example yet is a Civic vs. the Cobalt - my employer makes a particular component right here in Michigan for the Civic that's used world-wide (even in Japan), while the Cobalt uses a component that's make in S. Korea. So, tell me what "buying American" means again?

Now, by no means do I want to see any of the Big 3 go down, because anyone who says that it'd have disasterous consequences is exactly right. In fact, I'd like to see them return to their glory days, since I really like a lot of the product they've put out over the years, and I like what they've done for this country as a whole. But the way I see it, the domestic OEMs have depended too much on the generousity of their buyers for way too long, and they've also lost track of what made them so great. Chrysler has scored big with 300C/Magnum/Charger, and Ford has an undeniable hit with the Mustang. Why? I think it's because those cars are distinctly "American" in character. Make something that's as interesting to me as my Impala, and I can ignore all sorts of minor flaws. Make it a souless appliance that's intended to go head-to-head with the Asians, and then by all means I'll nitpick it to death.

GM's condition has just as much to do with the cars they were trying to sell 5, 10, 15 years ago as it does with the cars they're selling today. Is it fair that they're suffering because of years of Luminas and Cavaliers? Maybe, maybe not, but the marketplace isn't about being "fair". If they intend to recapture sales, it'll take cars that aren't just "as good as" the competition, but rather stuff that's out-of-the-ballpark better. There seems to be this mentality that it's all about how much GM spends on the product, but I think it's more than that - the company needs to find some soul. And don't give me any crap about how Honda or Toyota or whomever doesn't have any "soul" - let the competition do what they must. GM's had an eye on the competition for way too long, and that's lead directly to them being a follower instead of a leader, and constantly a model generation behind.

Whew. I didn't expect that long of a rant :)

[razoredge]

let me get this out first. If GM didn't produce "good" cars, there would be no more GM. There would be no loyal customers. There would be no fleet customers. There would be nothing.

Good to point out the FLEET customer, hard to resist that isnt it ?

Unfortunately, good enough is no longer enough. Americans, from the same country you are from, are choosing European and Japanese cars in droves every year increasing more and more, while GM decreases every year.

Lets keep this straight, Im not the "American" that is these pigions flocking to this symphony of destruction

Let me tell ya, they are not coming to cheers and gears and taking turbo200s advice and going out to buy _________import.

Im sure if they came here you would tell them exactly whats wrong with buying GM, and get the job done.

I called you uninformed based on your knowledge of automobiles.

I know all I need to know about the auto or any other man made piece of iron.

Anyone who says GM's cars are up to ALL standards of the Japanese and Europeans, I will call them ignorant, without a doubt.

Id never say that, there are cars out there from all builders I would never even waste the steps to walk up next to, you know, much like you wont any GM, I think most of these sub standard cars you refer to are in that segment that I wont even look at, the one the jap's excell at. 

I don't mean to offend, yaright ! and I don't think you took it that way, so good, but I am no smoke blower. but it seems most of your hatred for GM products evolves around a peticular location of dash items, some kind of touch feely obsession and I would assume being beat by 7hp really has you reaching out with the hook to pull them off the stage. I really love the side air curtains or ABS/TC that keeps being pulled out, shows pigion mentallity, all items I hate having to pay for the R&D of let alone my insurance rates are through the roof because of collision replacement costs of all these "must have" items, required by these highly educated, highly skilled, modern professionals in order to make their 30 mile commute possible.

Fortunately the good products will be coming very soon. Some have already come out, HHR, Solstice I can say are pretty much at the level of the competition. Will you or wont you? first a few rag mags will have to search, find and obsess on the area of these autos that GM did not quite reach the "bar" on. Thereby handing out the neccessary phrases for all to pass around, further declareing GM to still not be up to the task.   GM needs to leave the compromises behind to impress me. Well we were all taught from youth that compromise, happens. Buying or promoting any Asian car is a compromise, I will not accept !

Until then, you can be stubborn and undiscerning.... yaright, whatever, you would know, afterall !

[post="48574"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Eric Bryant - I am aware that many of the anti GM posters here have an agenda behind their posts. Thats is why I will continue to point it out.

So long as the Japs are giving us money we will sell them anything they desire - correct ? Hey want our mothers ? How much will ya give me ? There, you want my wife ? Whats she worth ? Being rediculous you say, am I really? or just making a point ? We started selling Japan our assets decades ago, now look where we are, looking down the barrel of a gun. Whats the friggin sence of having a country anyhow ? Why did we even bother fighting in any wars ? Why not just give it all over from the start and avoid all the headlines ? Why fight for GM or American anything ? We are giving it all up for trader numbers anyhow. Stimulate that economy, regardless of the end results, we can always steer it away from that headwall with more stimulation when its becoming apparent were about to hit. Almost as good a sex taint it ? Edited November 26, 2005 by razoredge

[steamer]

Eric Bryant - I am aware that many of the anti GM posters here have an agenda behind their posts. Thats is why I will continue to point it out.

So long as the Japs are giving us money we will sell them anything they desire - correct ? Hey want our mothers ? How much will ya give me ? There, you want my wife ? Whats she worth ? Being rediculous you say, am I really? or just making a point ? We started selling Japan our assets decades ago, now look where we are, looking down the barrel of a gun. Whats the friggin sence of having a country anyhow ? Why did we even bother fighting in any wars ? Why not just give it all over from the start and avoid all the headlines ? Why fight for GM or American anything ? We are giving it all up for trader numbers anyhow.  Stimulate that economy, regardless of the end results, we can always steer it away from that headwall with more stimulation when its becoming apparent were about to hit. Almost as good a sex taint it ?

[post="48775"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You have a good sense of loyality. As far as the Japanese being the enemy, let me tell a personal story, if I may. If management at Cheers&Gears finds this offensive or out of place, please delete it.

I have an uncle, who just recently passed away this past summer at age 85. Uncle Bert happened to be stationed at Fort Shafter one bright Sunday on December 7th, 1941. He survived a bomb blast that left him blind in his left eye and missing part of his right leg. Uncle Bert was very active in our VFW and alike and was a God-fearing man.

Ironicially Uncle Bert was a loyal Toyota owner the last 25 years of his life, having owned several Cressidas and Avalons. He always owned Chrylser products, and after some terrible luck with a 1977 Chrysler Cordoba he had, he was told to look at this Cressida by his mechanic.

He did, in 1979, and this WW2 disabled veteran was sold on the quality of this little sedan. Now, Uncle Bert was accused of all sorts of things by family and friends for being dis-loyal to his country, myself included. Uncle Bert always said, I left a few body parts behind for this country, and I paid for the freedom I hold, so as a truly free American, I will spend my earned money as I see fit, as a free American.

I never bought the story being a former GM employee, however now being away from GM and experiencing a 2002 Trailblazer that was certainly FAR from being representative of American pride in quality, I too see now what ol'Bert was saying.

Now after this sermon, my point? Free-markets demand the highest quality for the best price, not the lowest quality for whatever. When GM sees this, and I hope they do, they'll suceed greatly!

[razoredge]

You have a good sense of loyality.  As far as the Japanese being the enemy,  let me tell a personal story, if I may.  If management at Cheers&Gears finds this offensive or out of place, please delete it.

I have an uncle, who just recently passed away this past summer at age 85.      Uncle Bert happened to be stationed at Fort Shafter one bright Sunday on December 7th, 1941.  He survived a bomb blast that left him blind in his left eye and missing part of his right leg.    Uncle Bert was very active in our VFW and alike and was a God-fearing man.   

Ironicially Uncle Bert was a loyal Toyota owner the last 25 years of his life, having owned several Cressidas and Avalons.    He always owned Chrylser products, and after some terrible luck with a 1977 Chrysler Cordoba he had, he was told to look at this Cressida by his mechanic.

He did, in 1979, and this WW2 disabled veteran was sold on the quality of this little sedan.  Now, Uncle  Bert was accused of all sorts of things by family and friends for being dis-loyal to his country, myself included.    Uncle Bert always said, I left a few body parts behind for this country, and I paid for the freedom I hold, so as a truly free American, I will spend my earned money as I see fit, as a free American.

I never bought the story being a former GM employee, however now being away from GM and experiencing a 2002 Trailblazer that was certainly FAR from being representative of American pride in quality, I too see now what ol'Bert was saying.

Now after this sermon, my point?  Free-markets demand the highest quality for the best price, not the lowest quality for whatever. When GM sees this, and I hope they do, they'll suceed greatly!

[post="48781"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

and there you have it, now I shall take and do as Uncle Burt did.

Could you please mail this story to Toyota and have them use it for a commercial, its a real tear jerker, pulls at the ol heart strings, let me tell ya.

[steamer]

You are hilarious razorsedge! When I was in the US Navy during the early 1980's, I wish I would have taken pictures of the parking lots of the enlisted and the driveways of officer housing where I was stationed. I was certainly in the minority having a 1976 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Back then the majority of the lots were imported cars! Toyota and Nissan trucks were also quite popular, albeit the rampant rust issues the older imports had. My 19 year old son is in the US Air Force now, and upon my last visit to see him this past month, his base parking lots were almost completely import filled. I don't buy your logic here. GM & the domestics MUST beat the imports at their own game, rather than succomb or copy. Faint words won't cut through the bull any longer. Mock my story, rather than reply with informed discussion, that is your "right" to do so! Oh, if you happen to be a US citizen, your welcome, by the way! Have a wonderful day! Edited November 27, 2005 by steamer

[I hope GMRULES again]

You are hilarious razorsedge!
When I was in the US Navy during the early 1980's, I wish I would have taken pictures of the parking lots of the enlisted and the driveways of officer housing where I was stationed.   I was certainly in the minority having a 1976 Olds Cutlass Supreme.   Back then the majority of the lots were imported cars!   Toyota and Nissan trucks were also quite popular, albeit the rampant rust issues the older imports had.

[post="48795"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

In the early 80's the imports only had about a 15% market share so the chances of any parking lot having them as a majority would of been very very slim. How did you like your 76 Cutlass Supreme, one of my favorite cars. Edited November 27, 2005 by I hope GMRULES again

[steamer]

In the early 80's the imports only had about a 15% market share so the chances of any parking lot having them as a majority would of been very very slim. How did you like your 76 Cutlass Supreme, one of my favorite cars.

[post="49222"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No offense gmrules, but were you around back in 1981-82, & in San Diego? If so, then I stand corrected.

To answer your question, and forgive the off topic response; the Cutlass was a great car, when I graduated from Great Lakes, my mom & dad gave me the car. They bought it used from an Olds dealer in Lasalle, IL. I got the car with 25,000 miles on it and I kept it until 1983 when it had about 110,000 miles on it, & when I returned back home. It was navy blue with a light blue landau vinyl top and it had a light blue velour interior. The car had a 350 Oldsmobile V8 with the turbo 350 tranny. The only real problem I had with the car was on the interstate coming back home on a furlough, the battery exploded when I was going through Las Vegas.

[The O.C.]

  Redbook, black book, blue book - all BS.  Dealers, who deal in the real world every day, don't even use them any more.

[post="47106"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That statement just shows how little you know about the automotive market.....regardless of whether you work for a dealership or not....

Dealers and used-car managers LIVE AND DIE basing purchase decisions on "book" and where a particular model or vehicle falls relative to "book." I know...it's the business I'm IN....

[Croc]

Actually most dealers don't use the books much anymore. The insurance companies do.

[CARBIZ]

O.C, good for you, but how can you base buying a car on a book that is obsolete the moment it is printed? The market moves way too fast. What happens at the auction this week (and what programs GM is currently running) are far more important. If you wait for a monthly or quarterly book...well, how can you stay current?

[PontiacTechNJ]

The NSX is a little underpowered for its price, but it's not a drag car. It is designed for the track, and at any reasonably technical track, it will hold its own or beat the Corvette (now the Type R version, that's a different story). The NSX has had virtually no changes since it was released in 1990. Each engine is hand built, and not shared on any other platform, so it is expensive to produce. The upside is you get a car that will last much longer than any normal assembly line built car will (engine balancing and fine tuning of parts), and you get the pride of owning one, as it is far more rare than any other sub-100k car. I actually see more 360 Modena's than I do NSX's.

The Viper vs. Corvette argument has gone on forever, and it seems like a new comparison pops up every other week in some magazine or car show (including Fifth Gear). I don't really know, I like the Viper better in my own opinion, but the Corvette offers more performance for your money (they are a lot more common as well). As for Porsches, I think they're mainly for the name and prestige of owning one, similar to the NSX, except they're much more common.

When it comes to the Evo, it's fast, AWD, inexpensive, and even has 4 doors, but it probably won't appeal to the people buying those other cars. It looks odd, I don't know if I really like it or not, and of course it's 4 doors (which is BAD!).

And the thing that really seperates the Corvette and Evo from the other supercars, is the fact that they're just so common, and relatively inexpensive. The reason the other more expensive, yet seemingly slower cars, are still around, is because of this.

[post="48455"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The EVO does not run the same numbers as the base Corvettes , when did an NSX beat any Corvette in any racing series or run superior numbers on a test track ? Your Jap-o-Centric views are leading to delusion , Amigo, the NSX does not sell well , because like Acura itself not selling well either , souless and underpowered does not make a luxury car maker . I live in the Greenwich connecticut area , you see way more Lexus and Infinti's around here than Acura .
Good thing Honda moves out out all of those overpriced (overated) Civics and accords , something has to make up for Loss Leader Acura . Where is the V8 ? I will look up the NSX performance numbers , but the Corvette of the Eighties went undefeated in SSGT , banned by SCCA , I do not recall the same punishment due to the NSX , other than ferrying some old bag to hair apointments in Mamaroneck in the Ferrari Look Alike some automotive know nothing thought looked zippy , GM , even on it's perceived deathbed , does COOL better than Honda and their really bad Harley imitater motorbikes too . Edited December 1, 2005 by PontiacTechNJ

[razoredge]

The EVO does not run the same numbers as the base Corvettes , when did an NSX beat any Corvette in any racing series or run superior numbers on a test track ? Your Jap-o-Centric views are leading to delusion , Amigo, the NSX does not sell well , because like Acura itself not selling well either , souless and underpowered does not make  a luxury car maker . I live in the Greenwich connecticut area , you see way more Lexus and Infinti's around here than Acura .
Good thing Honda moves out out all of those overpriced (overated) Civics and accords , something has to make up for Loss Leader Acura . Where is the V8 ? I will look up the NSX performance numbers , but the Corvette of the Eighties went undefeated in SSGT , banned by SCCA , I do not recall the same punishment due to the NSX , other than ferrying some old bag to hair apointments in Mamaroneck in the Ferrari Look Alike some automotive know nothing thought looked zippy , GM , even on it's perceived deathbed , does COOL better than Honda and their really bad Harley imitater motorbikes too .

[post="51362"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:metal:

[PontiacTechNJ]

Friend of a friend just bought a TrailBlazer SS , but I am sure the RDX is way better . I keep hearing that GM just builds BIG trucks , ABC news expert analysis , Big trucks like the Equinox , Torrent , Vue , Rendezvous . Mainstream media does the Japanese advertising for free

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

The EVO does not run the same numbers as the base Corvettes , when did an NSX beat any Corvette in any racing series or run superior numbers on a test track ? Your Jap-o-Centric views are leading to delusion , Amigo, the NSX does not sell well , because like Acura itself not selling well either , souless and underpowered does not make  a luxury car maker . I live in the Greenwich connecticut area , you see way more Lexus and Infinti's around here than Acura .
Good thing Honda moves out out all of those overpriced (overated) Civics and accords , something has to make up for Loss Leader Acura . Where is the V8 ? I will look up the NSX performance numbers , but the Corvette of the Eighties went undefeated in SSGT , banned by SCCA , I do not recall the same punishment due to the NSX , other than ferrying some old bag to hair apointments in Mamaroneck in the Ferrari Look Alike some automotive know nothing thought looked zippy , GM , even on it's perceived deathbed , does COOL better than Honda and their really bad Harley imitater motorbikes too .

[post="51362"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

ACURA A LOSS LEADER??? Acura has posted sales gains like every month. the NSX is woefully outdated (its like almost 16 years old), and it isnt fast in a straight line, but it handles very well and could easially compete with the corvettes of its day on a track, not in a straight line.

[PontiacTechNJ]

Acura does not sell in the numbers of Accord and civic , or lexus or Cadillac or BMW . The no V8 policy of Honda hurts them . I don't think your ruse about an NSX vs Corvette holds water either . The NSX has never been in the Corvette performance level , just an overpriced toy for rich fools that have not an inkling about cars , looks sporty

[regfootball]

Good for you, but our company owns a Toyota store and a GM store and I can tell you from real world, every day experience:  Toyota has just as many bodies buried, they just manage to bury them a little deeper.
  And have you ever seen a Jetta or Gold with two headlights working?  Electrical problems galore.  I have had people 6 months into their Jetta leases trying to get out of them.
  Resale value?  Compare transaction prices (which the industry jealously guards), but we sell both Toyota and GM.
 
  Let me spell this out again: 
Actual selling price of a 2004 Cavalier $12,999, plus freight taxes and fees.  a/c automatic, Cd.  In our market (Toronto) you were looking at $16,410 "on the road."
  The same 2004 Corolla was going to set you back $18,700 plus freight, taxes and fees, for just a hair under $23,000.  What is the true resale value of a 20001 Cavalier today (remembering, too, that it is a dropped nameplate now):  $5-6,000.  And a 2001 Corolla?  $11,000.
  Magic?  Wow!  You lost $7,500 on the Cavalier and $7,700 on the Corolla.  Factor in higher insurance and maintenance (no Dexcool or Dexron in a Corolla) and the numbers will get farther apart. 
  Redbook, black book, blue book - all BS.  Dealers, who deal in the real world every day, don't even use them any more.

[post="47106"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

MY BUDDY BOUGHT A BRAND NEW vw a few months ago and already has had in the shop like 3 times to fix big problems. i laugh. all my gm's and ford's have been pretty trouble free. mitsubishis too for that matter.

[regfootball]

gm and ford make solid cars today. in some instances behind on some things, but they are in no way pieces of crap. the japanese build solid cars, but i do not believe they are significnal\tly better built. they have newer features and more gizmos. better plastics etc. but lots of asian cars prematurely show wear where domestics typically don't hve that beat to hell look in 5 years. what flabbergasts me is all the attention given to the koreans. their cars still reek of second tier. they are not built with the heft or style american consumers demand. i can understand the legitimacy of japanese being hard competition in this market, but man there's lots of fools who blow money on that korean crap. my sister included. ask her sometime if she preferred her early focus or the elantra she has now. my neighbor who works for dodge says you hear all the time about why the korean cars need warranties. all the really beat up looking cars on the road are the korean cars. my point is the media goes way overbaord on beating up USA cars and also the public is always trying to outsmart themselves looking for the next new thing or something better, and they talk themselves into the notion that it has to be inferior if its american because they've had it before. they think getting something new and different is automatically better and will change their lives so significantly it will make them special or something.

[Sixty8panther]

68:
I love the Infiniti G35 but I'm not spending $30 for a nice RWD V6 car when I can have a Bitchin Pontiac GTO for the money with a V8.

Siegen: Some people need 4 doors. The 350z would be more comparable with the GTO. Not that I like the 350z.


Maybe I shuld have specified G35 Coupe. I think the sedan looks chubby and dorky while the coupe looks like a million bucks!

68: The Mazda RX8 is wicked cool and kind of exotic, but the Rotary engine is not worth all the extra money over a Solstice, and if money is no object then a Corvette embarasses anything the Japanese or Europeans can cook up.

Siegen: Again, some people need 4 doors, or want something bigger. The Solstice's main competition is the Mazda Miata Mx-5, not the RX8. The Corvette is a nice car, but a much less expensive Mitsubishi Evolution MR will do just about anything it does, and a lot more.

The EVO8 is a great perfornace car but it's stil based on a POS crapbox that just reeks of "Civic-wannabe-syndrome" the AWD-Trubo-4-banger-Sedan I would actually consider is the WRX/STi. With its RW-biased AWD system and much better styling/quality makes it a winner in my book.

That being said the WRX & EvoXiii are both in the over $30K category, I'd rather buy a new GTO or a slightly used CTS-V and never worry about expensive & frequent turbocharger issues.

68: The Tahoe/Suburban and the rest of the GM full size SUVs are still the best value for the money IMHO.

Siegen: When compared to what?

ANYTHING. Sequoia, Land Rover/Range Rover, Expedition, Commander & all the other full size SUVs on the market. Every single one. Even the soon to be phazed out current models are fantastic products. Maybe the interiors are not the best but I don't give a rat's ass about interior fit and finish when it's time to tow a 4000lbs Cadillac on a 800lbs. trailer. or I need to get the hell out of 18" of mud. I'd never buy a full size SUV to drive aroudn town.... get a full size car or wagon if you're just driving Miss Daisy, if I buy a truck even if it's a $60,000 Escalade that bastard will be up to it's rocker panels in mud and drit at least twice a month. It's a truck. Trucks are made for utility not to have IRS and sissy car like handeling.

The Suburban, Yukon, Escalade EXT and their cousins are by far the best Fullsize SUVs on the market today.

68: As far as pickup trucks go we all know the Japanese are still not runnig on all eight cylinders.

Siegen: Again, that magic number 8. It seems like a lot of people are fixated on that number. Anything less is weak, anything more is exotic. 8 cylinders is the only way to be american!


With the exception of a 1987 BMW M3 I've never heard someone get that gleam in their eye talking about thier "SWEET four cylinder".

WTF would I ever have the desire to own anything other than a V8 when a GTO w/ a six speed and it's LS1/2/6/7 powered cousins get amazing small-V6 style fuel economy on the highway while providing low maintenance, amazing durability and big-block torque?

V8 are awsome, they're not a requirement or a muct but why aim low?

Somewhere in the country right now a retard with more money than brains just spent the equivelant of a brand new GTO on a V6 powered Lexus and he's all proud. Way to go Einstein, that FWD ES Lexus is SOOOO much more car right?

When it comes to cars there's plenty that deliver good power form nice V6 or inline sixes but unless it's a Mini or an SRT4 a four cylinder is not appealing to me at ALL. I'll take a 3800SC Park Ave ultra or Bonneville SSEi over any Acura with a four banger.


But since I was talking about TRUCKS and V8s I'll say this much: when it comes to full size pickups a nice torquey V8 is a must, anything less and you're might as well be a soccer mom driving Sienna. Like I said Trucks are abuot utility not fuel economy or saving the environment.

[Cory Wolfe]

This is a funny thread... I must say. Weirdos on each side of the arguement. :D w00t! :P

[Flybrian]

With pickups, the mythical appeal of 8 is even stronger than it is in cars and is something I suppose Honda/Acura will learn one day. I say that with all sincerity.

[Sixty8panther]

Don't get me wrong a big torquey inline six does the job just as well.... IF it has the same displacement as an equal V8. Just like Fords 5.0 (4.9 in reality) V8 powered F150 versus it's 4.9 liter Straight-Six. Six of one, V8 of another! :P

[siegen]

The EVO does not run the same numbers as the base Corvettes , when did an NSX beat any Corvette in any racing series or run superior numbers on a test track ?

The numbers aren't going to match, because they're just numbers. The only comparison I've ever found that had both an NSX and a Corvette in it I can't find anymore. It was the one where they were comparing the Corvette to the Camaro, NSX to S2000, etc, to see if the more expensive car was worth it compared to their lower models. I'm sure someone here has it bookmarked. It showed lap times for all cars. The NSX, S2000, and a bunch of the other cars were in the wet though, if I recall, not sure if the Corvette was. Someone post that up if you have it.

The only thing I could find was this video by Best Motoring, which has a slightly outdated comparison. It was the 5.7L V8 powered Corvette vs the previous version Type S NSX. The Corvette averaged 3.3 seconds slower per lap on Motegi.

Oh, and before you say it, yes the Z06 will blow the pants off the old 5.7L corvette. But the new NSX Type R will also blow the pants off that old NSX Type S. And any U.S. comparison will likely be reviewing the even slower American NSX. Anyways, you asked when an NSX ever beat a Corvette on a test track, and there you have it :) The Evo 7 averaged 5 seconds faster than the Corvette, and it is the older version as well. The current Evo 9 MR ($36,584) costs half as much as the Corvette Z06 ($67,095), and puts down some very respectable numbers.

the Corvette of the Eighties went undefeated in SSGT , banned by SCCA , I do not recall the same punishment due to the NSX

Maybe because the NSX didn't come out until 1990.

the NSX does not sell well , because like Acura itself not selling well either , souless and underpowered does not make  a luxury car maker

The NSX does not sell well because it is expensive, and I don't think a single person would have it any other way. It is rare and that's what makes it so good. Just like the S2000, Honda did not design it to be cheap to build. That means hand built engines, highly tuned suspensions with hundreds of hours of R&D, advanced chassis technology, and incredible performance for their package size. They designed the NSX to be perfect and sell in small quantities. They aren't trying to make money off of these cars, that's what Civics and Accords are for (duh).

It is not underpowered either, and neither is any Acura, what the hell are you talking about? The high end K-series engines have the most performance for their size of any naturally aspirated engine. The RL boasts better acceleration times than a great number of V8 powered lux sedans. 0-60 in 6.7 seconds, and a very powerful V6. The TL is even faster due to less weight, and the TSX has been handing BMW's ass to them for quite some time in the SCCA World Challenge.

Soul-less? What, like a Corvette has a soul? They're a dime a dozen, I think I see one or two every single day in my 5 mile drive to work.

[Hudson]

There are a bunch of people on this thread who can complain about Acura because they've never driven one. It's funny.

Acura does not sell in the numbers of Accord and civic , or lexus or Cadillac or BMW . The no V8 policy of Honda hurts them .
I don't think your ruse about an NSX vs Corvette holds water either . The NSX has never been in the Corvette performance level , just an overpriced toy for rich fools that have not an inkling about cars , looks sporty

LEXUS doesn't sell in the numbers of Accord or Civic....neither does Cadillac. You're comparing two of the most popular mainstream cars to LUXURY brand lineups. Of course they're not going to sell in those numbers.

The NSX was at (and past) Corvette performance levels when the NSX was introduced. When the C4 Corvette was around, the NSX was the better car. And anyone who thinks the NSX was "an overpriced toy for rich fools" obviously doesn't know as much as they think about cars.

Having driven NSXs (and Corvettes), the NSX was a fantastic car when it was introduced. Even with its V6, the car was an incredible performer on the track. Today, the NSX is a novelty with its aluminum construction and extremely low production numbers. But in 1991, this was THE car. And it wasn't until the introduction of the C5 that the Corvette surpassed the NSX.

[razoredge]

Who gives a crap, its Japanese. Its a Japanese copy of an Italian car. Like everything Japanese it shows no creativity, just monkey see monkey do. Kinda looks like a kit car to me, so they came up a little short in the styling department but they got the red paint right :lol: So this is the ultimate Japanese sports car right, and your compareing it to base production Corvette ? Sorry but it falls into ZO6 territory not the better riding more practical C5 or C6. Im sure they are welcome to enter the AMLS anytime they want if they got the brass to step up to the plate. Lets see them finish 3rd and 4th overall against the little prototypes, there just short little races B)

[siegen]

Its a Japanese copy of an Italian car. Like everything Japanese it shows no creativity, just monkey see monkey do.

What? The NSX is distinctly Japanese, and does not look Italian what-so-ever. Italian super cars of that time were boxy, straight-cut and large. The fact that Honda chose to go a completely different route than the usual big engine in a big sports car, and instead went with a super-light, high revving, naturally aspirated car (mid engine none the less), shows a hell of a lot more creativity than the Corvette, doesn't it?

Don't get me wrong, the Italian super cars weren't and aren't ugly, but they do not resemble the NSX.









Talking about monkey see monkey do.





Nice headlights on the Corvettte, wonder where they got the idea from.

So this is the ultimate Japanese sports car right, and your compareing it to base production Corvette ? Sorry but it falls into ZO6 territory not the better riding more practical C5 or C6.

The NSX was the ultimate Japanese super car when it came out. The fact that the Type R version (JDM only unfortunately) is often compared to other 2000+ super cars, and is still holding its own, despite being a 15 year old design with only moderate chassis and suspension imporvements, is pretty good, don't you think? The new NSX will hopefully be released in the next 2 years, and we can compare that to the current version corvette.

[Flybrian]

The NSX looks very odd as-is right now because of the exposed headlamps.

It has too much of a 'face,' at least more than an exotic should have. Compare to...

The older ones are a favorite of mine and one of the few Japanese cars I really do like. Granted, I wouldn't buy one because if I could afford $90,000 for a car, I'd get a Corvette and save the change. But I wouldn't kick an NSX out of the garage, that's for sure.

It doesn't have the outright muscle of every other car in its range, but its unique, a step apart, and can - as stated - hold its own against many others.

And saying fools buy this car is simply wrong. Fools spend $300-500k on a Ferrari they can't fix and can't use.

[PontiacTechNJ]

What? The NSX is distinctly Japanese, and does not look Italian what-so-ever. Italian super cars of that time were boxy, straight-cut and large. The fact that Honda chose to go a completely different route than the usual big engine in a big sports car, and instead went with a super-light, high revving, naturally aspirated car (mid engine none the less), shows a hell of a lot more creativity than the Corvette, doesn't it?

Don't get me wrong, the Italian super cars weren't and aren't ugly, but they do not resemble the NSX.









Talking about monkey see monkey do.





Nice headlights on the Corvettte, wonder where they got the idea from.
The NSX was the ultimate Japanese super car when it came out. The fact that the Type R version (JDM only unfortunately) is often compared to other 2000+ super cars, and is still holding its own, despite being a 15 year old design with only moderate chassis and suspension imporvements, is pretty good, don't you think?  The new NSX will hopefully be released in the next 2 years, and we can compare that to the current version corvette.

[post="55349"][/post]

I have an idea - move to Japan because then you won't be saddled with extra slow turds that Acura is forced to sell here because ....um .. they just can't sell those super secret street beasts in the US because they would be so awesome that the Corvettes would never ever sell again .
HA
Slow , silly looking - boo hoo , GM stole my headlamp designs , give me a break , they are only headlamps , GM makes actual performance cars , not pseudo performance .
V6 , ha ha , no turbo , haha , lame

[siegen]

I have an idea - move to Japan because then you won't be saddled with extra slow turds that Acura is forced to sell here because ....um .. they just can't sell those super secret street beasts in the US because they would be so awesome that the Corvettes would never ever sell again .
HA
Slow , silly looking - boo hoo , GM stole my headlamp designs , give me a break , they are only headlamps , GM makes actual performance cars , not pseudo performance .
V6 , ha ha , no turbo , haha , lame

[post="55412"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I smell a Troll :)

[Cory Wolfe]

I have an idea - move to Japan because then you won't be saddled with extra slow turds that Acura is forced to sell here because ....um .. they just can't sell those super secret street beasts in the US because they would be so awesome that the Corvettes would never ever sell again .
HA
Slow , silly looking - boo hoo , GM stole my headlamp designs , give me a break , they are only headlamps , GM makes actual performance cars , not pseudo performance .
V6 , ha ha , no turbo , haha , lame

[post="55412"][/post]

And I thought I was immature... :lol: Wow...

Anyways, I love the NSX. It's a well-rounded performer with superb handling. Regardless of it having "only" a V6 it has an excellent power-to-weight ratio thanks to its light weight. Being mid-engined it also has excellent weight distribution. As siegen has mentioned, they are quality pieces as well. I just don't see why some people bash it... The quintessential sports car is one that is mid-engined with a low power-to-weight ratio, IMO, and the NSX fits perfectly. Perhaps it's jealousy? :P Yes, that must be it. Jealousy of wonderful ME sports cars. :D






However, I like this one more than it... :AH-HA_wink: T'is my favorite.

[razoredge]

Then NSX more remindes me of the 308 GTS, 328 combined with the Camaro roof.


The Japanese were very fond of Italian cars back when, I know there was a decent Fiat/Lancia/Abarth following in Japan 70's 80's, so I know what inspired this car. AND yes I was harsh, Im just haveing a sick of Japanese this and Japanese that - week........month.........year :lol:
I know we make fun of and laugh about the "Ricers" but really they are just dressing their cars up to look like low slung race cars, customized and for the street.

As for Creativity, Im always in favor of the high use of al lu men nem but thats nothing new, but still rare. That little Lotus is an interesting build. The Corvette is a rearward mounted front engine, little different than mid engine except for which axle the engine is mounted "midship". Then the Corvette has a rear transaxle. Out the window with your weight dist. Tomato, tomato, that darn little rear opposed engine, Porsche is still makeing the best of the GT classes 40 some years later. Back with the 928 Porsche introduction R&T made much of their usage of the rear transaxle. They also made much of the 84 Vette that they achieved 1. g on the skid pad. In that test it was picked out #1, and felt to outperform the others. They were the Porsche 928, Ferrari 308 GTS {I think} maybe 328 but I cant remember what or if there was a fourth car. Seems like there was. R&T also made much of the Fiero and its layout and especially the body and chassis engineering.

So anywho the Corvette has quite a little{LARGE} drivetrain in it. I think you'll also find the C6 headlights were worked & fitted versions of the C5R's headlight. Its a good thing quite a few people buy and love Corvettes, elsewise we would not have them.


:)

Edited December 9, 2005 by razoredge