dealer wants to buy Pontiac from GM

[Camino LS6]

Or make a small, separate "GM Performance" partnership, which could include Pontiacs (the GTO, G8, Trans Am) and Oldsmobile (a 4-4-2, a Toronado, etc.) or ??? Maybe not a big enough market. Scrap GMC Trucks, give Chevy or Caddy the "denalis" or whatevere someone feels is important and profitable, and call this company G-M-C Heritage.

Now we're cookiing!

keep those ideas coming.

[gm4life]

I'd even like to explore the possibilities of GM morphing into a confederation of semi-independent brands that have to prove their own viability but benefit from the cost-savings of a loose GM umbrella.

I would love to see this too, more like what GM had back in the day. You know when Pontiac actually made a their own motors. GM could give all their brands some freedom, but keep the "under GM".

[Camino LS6]

Personally, given that the resources are there to do so, I think someone other than GM could most certainly take the brand further than GM has themselves. Their own mishaps have more than helped put Pontiac in the position it is currently in. The nature of Pontiac is not flawed.

Precisely.

[Camino LS6]

The risk, of course, would be that any failing brand grouping would have to be allowed to die alone.

Fair is fair.

[gm4life]

We might actually be getting somewhere. I think GM should give the government back its money and start with some good plans for the future. I would love to see Olds come back too.

[Camino LS6]

We might actually be getting somewhere. I think GM should give the government back its money and start with some good plans for the future. I would love to see Olds come back too.

That's not possible, but they might be able to sell the government on such a plan - especially if it brings in outside investment.

As for Oldsmobile, the name remains an asset of GM - and as such could be put in play.

[Camino LS6]

Could solve the "too big to fail" conundrum for the government as well...

[SAmadei]

I actually think a new GNX would be just the thing to get some interest back into Buick. They are the middle brand now, so having a $40-45k flagship sedan or coupe (Zeta?) would be just the thng to bring some enthusiasm back to Buick.

I have advocated bringing the longer Statesman over as a Buick, to give them a flagship, but not a performance version. A Holden-built Zeta GN/GNX would get Cadillac's panties in a bunch, stealing sales from the vaulted CTS... and a LaCrosse/Lucerne based GN/GNX would get the GN/GNX faithful rioting in the streets.

OTOH, I love some of the other ideas posted here about Confederated Motors... Saturn/Saab/Pontiac/Holden. I think that if those brands were managed independantly like in GM's heyday, they could become world beaters. Sure... here's the platform you need to use. Here is the engines and transmissions you should use. Now design an exterior and interior that suits your market and tweak the mechanicals to taste. You get run slightly in the red while getting on your feet... 7 or 8 years... after that, if you die, you die for real.

I know GM does not what the competition, because they aren't competitive as is... but the common enemy are the imports. I would love to see GM's abandoned children beat the ill-managed parent at its own game.

But its a dream.

[Camino LS6]

I have advocated bringing the longer Statesman over as a Buick, to give them a flagship, but not a performance version. A Holden-built Zeta GN/GNX would get Cadillac's panties in a bunch, stealing sales from the vaulted CTS... and a LaCrosse/Lucerne based GN/GNX would get the GN/GNX faithful rioting in the streets.

OTOH, I love some of the other ideas posted here about Confederated Motors... Saturn/Saab/Pontiac/Holden. I think that if those brands were managed independantly like in GM's heyday, they could become world beaters. Sure... here's the platform you need to use. Here is the engines and transmissions you should use. Now design an exterior and interior that suits your market and tweak the mechanicals to taste. You get run slightly in the red while getting on your feet... 7 or 8 years... after that, if you die, you die for real.

I know GM does not what the competition, because they aren't competitive as is... but the common enemy are the imports. I would love to see GM's abandoned children beat the ill-managed parent at its own game.

But its a dream.

Brother!

[mot76]

Pontiac has a much storied past to just go away. I easily see at 5 G6s to every Malibu on the road. Chevy can't do it alone.

GM needs Pontiac. Please rethink this, GM!

[SAmadei]

Pontiac has a much storied past to just go away. I easily see at 5 G6s to every Malibu on the road. Chevy can't do it alone.

GM needs Pontiac. Please rethink this, GM!

I swear I see 4 G5s to every Cobalt... but then at the junkyard I see 4 Cavaliers for every Sunfire... and the sales numbers seem to bear this out... so I have to dismiss my seeing of more G5s and G6s as selective automotive ogling.

The more I see the Malibu, the less I think of it. It just fades in with everything else... which is what the sheeple want.

[cire]

If Buick wants to survive, they'd better start making cars that don't "fit" the Buick brand. (Bimmer325)

In the Pontiac template? I think not. (Camino LS6)

I agree with Bimmer325 that Buick does need to do something different than it has for at least the last 10 years. It needs a lineup that will transform the brand into a modern, competitive, and relevant premium brand. That means shaking off the stodgy, outdated products and marketing that has limited the brand's potential in the past. Buick needs to expand downward (size-wise) with their product portfolio to position the brand to face the future, but these smaller Buicks need to be fitted with engineering and tech that will make them solid premium products. I disagree with Bimmer325 on the approach however. I think Buick's main focus should still be the luxury experience. The brand could wade into the performance waters a little bit, but it should do it with one foot still firmly planted in the luxury end of the premium pool. I do think the brand can still offer this luxury experience without the floaty disconnected ride of past Buicks, but it shouldn't fully sacrifice a smooth ride for sportiness either. Essentially, Buick needs to fit competent handling into the equation without losing its luxury oriented focus. From what I understand, the Enclave has successfully done this. I'm sure the 2010 LaCrosse (which still needs a serious name change) will too. Buick just needs to keep expanding on the foundation it has established with these 2 products. Modern platforms, modern engines, modern transmissions, modern styling, modern products, competent yet luxurious handling, cool yet upscale marketing, a broader product portfolio, appropriately engineered and equipped models for the premium segment: these are the things that Buick needs to make its transformation successful.

I agree with Camino LS6 about Buick not trying to stretch itself to cover the perceived niche left vacant with the discontinuation of Pontiac. I think he is right in saying that the blend of performance and affordability should be covered by Chevrolet. Chevrolet already does this, but I think they need to step it up a bit by adding some models and tweaking their performance oriented trim levels. However, I don't fully agree with him about "performance" and "Buick" being mutually exclusive concepts. I think Buick can add a little more performance to their image, but not to the degree that it would fully sacrifice its luxury tendencies. A blend of luxury and performance that defaults on the side of luxury would be appropriate for Buick. Buick could maybe try to do this by adding performance oriented trim levels to its products, but these trim levels need to remain understated and consistent with Buick's luxury mission and image (and please don't use the outdated sounding "Super" moniker on these possible performance trims; I think this designation continues to link Buick to its outdated image with the public). On the other hand, Chevrolet's future attempts to blend performance and mainstream affordability should be a little more edgier and "in your face" without crossing the line into complete garishness (sort of like what Pontiac should have been; the G8 sedan seems to me like a promise of unfulfilled future greatness for the brand).

As far as GM selling off Pontiac, I have mixed feelings about it. I would hate to see it launch and fail. On the other hand, I would hate to see the brand rot away in GM's archives either. I think GM should have kept it going, but it should have been made an affordable performance niche brand and merged with Chevrolet (which would have been refocused on mainstream affordable products only). Bob Lutz claimed that the Zeta platform was very flexible and could be reconfigured into a variety of wheelbases and vehicle sizes. I think GM should have invested in downsizing it, making it lighter to be more fuel efficient, and using it as a basis for developing some next gen affordable performance products for Pontiac. Unfortunately, Pontiac and the Zeta platform appear to be 2 untapped resources that will remain to be underutilized by GM. If Zeta was as flexible as Lutz claimed, then I think GM would have been better off exploring its potential to create some exciting yet practical products instead of investing resources in Kappa (which appears to be extremely unflexible and limited to underpinning unprofitable low volume products). The possibilities of "what could have been" are mind boggling.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Something I've been kicking around:

What if an entity invests in Opel and buys Saturn, Pontiac, Hummer and Saab...

Part of the Opel agreement could be a continued supply of engineering and platforms. Those resources could be used here as Saturns with an already established dealer network.

The entity could then turn around and group Saab, Hummer and Pontiac into the remaining Hummer dealers. Saab could develop it's own products (a line of very specialized and technical entries -- with outside investment), Pontiac could be paired down to 3 models; a hotter version of the Vibe (provided by Toyota) _OR_ a hot rodded G6 that matches the performance of much more expensive cars, the Solstice (tooling could be acquired and set up somewhere) and a continued agreement with GM on the G8 and possibly it's variants. Hummer could license technology from GM as well. (for an H3, H3T and HX line)

You could even throw Oldsmobile into the mix if said buyer had enough resources. Oldsmobile would be to Saturn as Acura is to Honda or Audi is to VW. Your dealership structure would then become 1) Saturn/Oldsmobile (volume focused) and 2) Pontiac/Hummer/Saab (margin focused - specialty)

Saab would not compete with Olds. Saab would be a more rigid and focused niche automaker (like it was always supposed to be) Pontiac would eventually grow into a small uber performance line (like GM envisioned) and Hummer would be a quasi Land Rover competitor (Like it should be)

The key would be good management. The volume divisions (Olds and Saturn) would need a lot of $$$. The niche divisions could get by with less investment, but they would have to be tightly focused and provide an ownership experience like no other.

A few years down the road, Saturn and Oldsmobile could be 100% integrated with Opel making up a growing global footprint. Pontiac could consolidate the G6, G8 and Solstice onto Alpha and GM could benefit from it. Saab could sustain itself with a bit of input from Opel and Hummer could maybe be consolidated to one GM platform.

The only loser would be Buick as the new Saturn/Oldsmobile might displace it's models. But then again, why can't Buick be teamed with Cadillac to offer a softer flavor of luxury? Buick = Lexus while Cadillac = BMW/MB.

Edited May 3, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[cire]

Something I've been kicking around:

What if an entity invests in Opel and buys Saturn, Pontiac, Hummer and Saab...

Part of the Opel agreement could be a continued supply of engineering and platforms. Those resources could be used here as Saturns with an already established dealer network.

The entity could then turn around and group Saab, Hummer and Pontiac into the remaining Hummer dealers. Saab could develop it's own products (a line of very specialized and technical entries -- with outside investment), Pontiac could be paired down to 3 models; a hotter version of the Vibe (provided by Toyota) _OR_ a hot rodded G6 that matches the performance of much more expensive cars, the Solstice (tooling could be acquired and set up somewhere) and a continued agreement with GM on the G8 and possibly it's variants. Hummer could license technology from GM as well. (for an H3, H3T and HX line)

You could even throw Oldsmobile into the mix if said buyer had enough resources. Oldsmobile would be to Saturn as Acura is to Honda or Audi is to VW. Your dealership structure would then become 1) Saturn/Oldsmobile (volume focused) and 2) Pontiac/Hummer/Saab (margin focused - specialty)

Saab would not compete with Olds. Saab would be a more rigid and focused niche automaker (like it was always supposed to be) Pontiac would eventually grow into a small uber performance line (like GM envisioned) and Hummer would be a quasi Land Rover competitor (Like it should be)

The key would be good management. The volume divisions (Olds and Saturn) would need a lot of $$$. The niche divisions could get by with less investment, but they would have to be tightly focused and provide an ownership experience like no other.

A few years down the road, Saturn and Oldsmobile could be 100% integrated with Opel making up a growing global footprint. Pontiac could consolidate the G6, G8 and Solstice onto Alpha and GM could benefit from it. Saab could sustain itself with a bit of input from Opel and Hummer could maybe be consolidated to one GM platform.

The only loser would be Buick as the new Saturn/Oldsmobile might displace it's models. But then again, why can't Buick be teamed with Cadillac to offer a softer flavor of luxury? Buick = Lexus while Cadillac = BMW/MB.

I really would like to see GM follow through with the Opel/Buick alignment.

If a plan like yours did occur, I would actually try to purchase the rights to the Aurora name instead of Oldsmobile (rumor has it that GM actually considered changing the division name from Oldsmobile to Aurora during the height of its last transformation phase). I think "Aurora" sounds more modern and less stodgy. "Aurora" also actually fits much better with "Saturn" than "Oldsmobile".

Overall, it's an interesting proposition. For Buick's sake, I hope Opel stays under some kind of GM control.

Edited May 3, 2009 by cire

[Intrepidation]

GM Rejected the Offer

[cire]

I think they should reduce Pontiac down to just the G8 sedan for now and move it in with Chevrolet (I'm sorry. I like the Solstice, but it's not profitable so it needs to go). I would then work with Holden to explore how flexible Zeta can be and work on building a 4 car niche lineup for the brand from there (2 sedans: compact/midsize & 2 coupes: compact/midsize). Chevrolet would lose the next gen Camaro to Pontiac if this were to occur; it would become the Pontiac Trans Am instead. The midsize coupe would be the Pontiac GTO. The compact sedan would be the LeMans and the midsize sedan would be the Grand Prix. Plans would be made to build most of the U.S. intended products in North America though.

Since Chevrolet would be getting Pontiac to fullfill its affordable performance needs, I would spin Corvette off into its own brand and pair it with Cadillac to be the corporation's Porsche fighter. I would give Corvette a 2 car lineup on 2 different wheelbases of the Y-body platform. The short wheelbase car would be a 2-seat 3-door coupe and convertible called Radius. The long wheelbase car would be the C7 Corvette and would go by the Stingray name.

GM would still have a 3-tier sales channel configuration:

* Chevrolet/Pontiac: Affordable Mainstream & Affordable Performance

* Buick/GMC: Volume Premium & Utility Premium

* Cadillac/Corvette: Sport Luxury & Sport Specialty

[gm4life]

GM Rejected the Offer

So they will sell Saturn but not Pontiac? I don't get it.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Some people think that GM is considering the offer, but that the PR department doesn't have official word yet. And that statement above is status quo.

That said, I doubt that GM would be smart enough or care enough to sell Pontiac.

[gm4life]

That said, I doubt that GM would be smart enough or care enough to sell Pontiac.

I was fear that too. Nothing would make me happier aside of GM keep Pontiac, than to let Pontiac go free. Maybe I could stop buying GM cars and just get Pontiac's now that would make my day. Provided they have a 400 horse V8 powered RWD coupe in the mix!

[hyperv6]

I swear I see 4 G5s to every Cobalt... but then at the junkyard I see 4 Cavaliers for every Sunfire... and the sales numbers seem to bear this out... so I have to dismiss my seeing of more G5s and G6s as selective automotive ogling.

The more I see the Malibu, the less I think of it. It just fades in with everything else... which is what the sheeple want.

The problem is the G6 makes less profit per unit than the G6 and the G6 is leased and fleeted in big numbers for the last how many years vs two for the Bu.

Stop seeing Bu and drive a LT or LTZ V6 Six Speed. I would give up my 04 GTP in a second for it. It is a much better car all the way around and is not that bad of a looking car with the right 18 inch wheels. Like it or not it is a much better car than nay FWD Pontiac made.

As for the G5 there are much less made vs the Cobalt. I have been to the factory and have seen the numbers as it is not a big seller like it should be.

THis is not about market share or volume anymore it is about profit. You can sell a million Pontiac's but if your not making money why bother. The cold truth is Chevy could make it with out GM on pickups alone and has done so for years.

GM is not dumb for not selling but anyone who would buy them in times like this needs a shrink. Toyots has shown a 40% + drop in sales this is no time to start making cars unless you have a lot of money to lose.

I may be wrong but the only Pontiac worth saving may just be a Chevy here in time. Once GM works out the next month our two I suspect the G8 to be here as a Caprice in the future. Holden needs the money on the imports and if yoiu have Chevy police cars here what more would it take to bring in some for the public when the time is right.

GM is not going to be stupid to say they will have a rwd Zeta Caprice till they unload all the G8's sitting around unsold. Just on resale alone most people would opt for the near identical Chevy.

[Hudson]

I don't understand where the shuttering of Pontiac and selling the nameplate are mutually exclusive. Waldron only wants to buy the nameplate...I didn't hear any mention of production lines or vehicles, just the name. GM can ax Pontiac as a produced marketing brand and Waldron can buy the name (which I imagine he and his investors can't afford).

A dealer bought one model line (and the modelname) from Studebaker back in 1964....and it lasted 25 years beyond the production life of Studebaker! Pontiac COULD BE purchased, but I can't imagine that any "small" investor could afford to re-launch the brand with actual competitive products without MAJOR help from large vehicle manufacturers.

Pontiac isn't Saturn. Pontiac has a long and storied history as a GM brand. Spinning off Saturn (which has worked, until recently, to be separate from GM) could work with other manufacturer(s) supplying product. It would be a tougher sell to the buying public to do that with Pontiac. Not saying it couldn't work, but it would be much tougher than with Saturn.

[SAmadei]

The problem is the G6 makes less profit per unit than the G6 and the G6 is leased and fleeted in big numbers for the last how many years vs two for the Bu.

Not sure what you are saying here... G6 is outselling the G6? ;-)

Stop seeing Bu and drive a LT or LTZ V6 Six Speed. I would give up my 04 GTP in a second for it. It is a much better car all the way around and is not that bad of a looking car with the right 18 inch wheels. Like it or not it is a much better car than nay FWD Pontiac made.

I can contort myself into the G5/G6 and Malibu, but I am clearly not comfortable. Driving the car is likely to lower my opinion of the car.

THis is not about market share or volume anymore it is about profit. You can sell a million Pontiac's but if your not making money why bother. The cold truth is Chevy could make it with out GM on pickups alone and has done so for years.

Does the UAW charge more per hour to built Pontiacs? Does the split grill require a licensing fee to be sent to BMW? Does the use of the arrowhead emblem cost more due to them being produced by native Americans?

How the hell does Pontiac not make a profit selling 95% of the same car as Chevy or Buick on the same assembly line? The only thing I can see is marketing, but GM ain't doing much of that, anyway.

GM needs to fix its labor and pension costs before anything. Then they need to start selling Chevys at a loss to get sales back from the imports.

It doesn't matter. GM as a whole is poisoned, and is set to be disassembled at the junkyard. Not selling Pontiac just shows that GM management is spiteful.

[SAmadei]

I don't understand where the shuttering of Pontiac and selling the nameplate are mutually exclusive. Waldron only wants to buy the nameplate...I didn't hear any mention of production lines or vehicles, just the name. GM can ax Pontiac as a produced marketing brand and Waldron can buy the name (which I imagine he and his investors can't afford).

Neither do I.

Waldron wants to license cars... so I figured he wants to continue bringing G8s in. Perhaps G5s, as well, since they are virtually identical to Cobalts.

I thought it would be interesting if Waldron inherited the Vibe and its contract with Toyota.