dealer wants to buy Pontiac from GM

[Z-06]

Guys, let us bring harmony here. Emotions are high. Time to stay calm and talk about the subject of the thread.

[Camino LS6]

Guys, let us bring harmony here. Emotions are high. Time to stay calm and talk about the subject of the thread.

Too late.

[gm4life]

Just hanging around waiting to be de-admined.

And free from the likes of you actually.

You and Satty can then enjoy pissing on Pontiac uninterrupted.

Amen. Camino I agree with on this, you have alot of good ideas. Something some of these so called GM "fans" on here don't have or don't care to have. They just enjoy pissing on PMD, and GM in general. I thought this was supposed to be a GM Fan site, not a haters site.

Edited May 2, 2009 by gm4life

[Croc]

There is nothing wrong with Buick actually having performance. At this time, however, it doesn't make sense for Buick's mission to be performance. Rather, it should be on style, precision, luxury, refinement, etc. which is working well in China right now and should be successful in the US if GM stays the course. The "affordable performance" theme will have to go to Chevy - there's no other place for it.

I don't think anyone here ever advocated in any way that Buick would become anything close to what Pontiac was never able to be these past few years. Nobody.

[z28luvr01]

I don't think anyone here ever advocated in any way that Buick would become anything close to what Pontiac was never able to be these past few years. Nobody.

OK, I promise not to bite your head off if you promise not to bite mine off. You did bring up the GN/GNX. Maybe Buick can grow a "performance" arm in the future, but not now. Buick's best chance at survival is staying its current course.

[wildcat]

. . . some of these so called GM "fans" on here . . . enjoy pissing on PMD, and GM in general. I thought this was supposed to be a GM Fan site, not a haters site.

It would be very informative for you to review which C&G member has rejected nearly every suggestion about the future of other GM brands since the decision to cut Pontiac became official. I've always said that GM fans should support all of GM's iconic names including Pontiac.

[Intrepidation]

Remember the rules on personal attacks.

It's this kind of $h! that makes me not want to be on C&G anymore.

[Camino LS6]

Just lock it, DF.

This thread will never be what it should have been anyway.

[Croc]

OK, I promise not to bite your head off if you promise not to bite mine off. You did bring up the GN/GNX. Maybe Buick can grow a "performance" arm in the future, but not now. Buick's best chance at survival is staying its current course.

...I'm not biting anyone's head off...???

Yeah, Camino said Buick couldn't ever do performance, and so I mentioned the obvious counter to that, as proof that Buick could have a model or two of "performance."

Frankly, though, "performance" seems to nebulous. And it certainly doesn't include the majority of the recent offerings by Pontiac. AFAIK, "performance" includes good handling, tuning, acceleration, braking, economy, and weight balance, among other things. Frankly, every GM division needs performance. Whether a division is paired with top-of-the-line luxury like Cadillac, or made more entry-level like Chevrolet, or somewhere in-between like Buick, they all need a degree of performance. The years where it's OK for certain brands to have floaty vehicles have long since past. Consumers are demanding, and they have been demanding good ride/handling balance, good acceleration and fuel economy, as well as proper steering feel. They want it all.

[gm4life]

It would be very informative for you to review which C&G member has rejected nearly every suggestion about the future of other GM brands since the decision to cut Pontiac became official. I've always said that GM fans should support all of GM's iconic names including Pontiac.

I wasn't talking about you, but some people on this forum who for some reason or another have kept "dumping" on Pontiac. That is what upsets me. Hell General Motors upsets me. I think GM should take whatever kind of MONEY they can get for Pontiac and let them go free. That would make my day, is GM honestly that stupid not to take the money they badly need and run? If someone that actually cared about Pontiac could run them, alot of good things for this country could happen. No wildcat I understand you and know you respect all GM brands, it wasn't directed at you, but to the people who couldn't wait to rush over and piss on Pontiac's grave.

Edited May 2, 2009 by gm4life

[z28luvr01]

Frankly, though, "performance" seems to nebulous. And it certainly doesn't include the majority of the recent offerings by Pontiac. AFAIK, "performance" includes good handling, tuning, acceleration, braking, economy, and weight balance, among other things. Frankly, every GM division needs performance. Whether a division is paired with top-of-the-line luxury like Cadillac, or made more entry-level like Chevrolet, or somewhere in-between like Buick, they all need a degree of performance. The years where it's OK for certain brands to have floaty vehicles have long since past. Consumers are demanding, and they have been demanding good ride/handling balance, good acceleration and fuel economy, as well as proper steering feel. They want it all.

I'm in full agreement with you. Buick needs all those things, or it'll get ripped to shreds. I guess my point is, it doesn't need to be advertised and shouldn't be Buick's marketing focus. Performance should be a "throw in" for buying a stylish, vault-like, luxurious, refined Buick. Get my drift?

[Camino LS6]

I'm in full agreement with you. Buick needs all those things, or it'll get ripped to shreds. I guess my point is, it doesn't need to be advertised and shouldn't be Buick's marketing focus. Performance should be a "throw in" for buying a stylish, vault-like, luxurious, refined Buick. Get my drift?

Which of course was my point.

Did anyone really believe that I was advocating floaty boats for Buick?

A new GN, however, is another thing entirely - and the sort of thing I was calling a mistake.

I had hoped that a decent exploration of how an independent (or quasi-independent) Pontiac might be salvaged from the ashes would be what this thread was all about.

That wasn't to be.

Somehow Buick always ends up popping up in Pontiac threads.

Too bad.

[wildcat]

. . . every GM division needs performance . . . Consumers are demanding . . . They want it all.

(Other than the most base economy cars), I think that's correct. That thought should warn GM that it MUST focus each of the remaining divisions to have their own, clear reason for being. I understand that Chevrolet is GM's volume leader and world brand, but its dealers must be fair and tempered; or Chevrolet will hog everything that Buick and Cadillac can and should be. I think there is room for all three, whether it's achieved by each through marketing (which doesn't seem to be GM's strong point) or using something from a brand's heritage (which is a unique selling point), or by taking a chance and finding a whole new plan for them.

[Camino LS6]

Case in point...

[Croc]

I actually think a new GNX would be just the thing to get some interest back into Buick. They are the middle brand now, so having a $40-45k flagship sedan or coupe (Zeta?) would be just the thng to bring some enthusiasm back to Buick.

[Camino LS6]

I actually think a new GNX would be just the thing to get some interest back into Buick. They are the middle brand now, so having a $40-45k flagship sedan or coupe (Zeta?) would be just the thng to bring some enthusiasm back to Buick.

And there, I strongly disagree.

[wildcat]

I actually think a new GNX would be just the thing to get some interest back into Buick.

I don't even think it would have be a "GNX." I just think that GM has to hit a home run (with all of its remaining divisions) and if GM wanted to push a little pizzazz / performance / unexpected vitality to Buick, it should come up with a killer marketing campaign and show the picture of that black 4-door Insignia (the photo from GME - the one that's in the latest Opel Insignia posts) as the new Buick whatever. It looks hot just standing still. Personally, I don't care for the "Super" name, but I noticed that Corvette will use the words "Gran Sport." Ouch!

[Camino LS6]

I don't even think it would have be a "GNX." I just think that GM has to hit a home run (with all of its remaining divisions) and if GM wanted to push a little pizzazz / performance / unexpected vitality to Buick, it should come up with a killer marketing campaign and show the picture of that black 4-door Insignia (the photo from GME - the one that's in the latest Opel Insignia posts) as the new Buick whatever. It looks hot just standing still. Personally, I don't care for the "Super" name, but I noticed that Corvette will use the words "Gran Sport." Ouch!

OK fine.

We'll talk about Buick.

Grand Sport was Corvette's first. (note the 'd')

"Super" is Buick exclusively at GM.

The car you describe here is far more in line with what Buick is now, Zeta doesn't belong.

[wildcat]

Grand Sport was Corvette's first. (note the 'd')

You're right on both counts. Was it on a production Corvette or a non-production model? Anyway, I'm surprised that GM let Buick use Gran Sport and, of course, when I hear that name (or anything close), I think of the Wildcat GS, the Riviera GS, and the Skylark GS cars of the mid to late 1960s.

"Super" is Buick exclusively at GM.

They need something better than that. Or, as someone said earlier, just don't offer base or minimally-equipped Buicks and that way, GM won't need a name to signify the "upper" models.

The car you describe here is far more in line with what Buick is now . . .

Disregarding any minor personal misgivings I have, the Insignia seems to have stirred the emotions and enthusiasm of many here, so it would probably be a "plus" for Buick as-is.

[Camino LS6]

You're right on both counts. Was it on a production Corvette or a non-production model? Anyway, I'm surprised that GM let Buick use Gran Sport and, of course, when I hear that name (or anything close), I think of the Wildcat GS, the Riviera GS, and the Skylark GS cars of the mid to late 1960s.

They need something better than that. Or, as someone said earlier, just don't offer base or minimally-equipped Buicks and that way, GM won't need a name to signify the "upper" models.

Disregarding any minor personal misgivings I have, the Insignia seems to have stirred the emotions and enthusiasm of many here, so it would probably be a "plus" for Buick as-is.

It was a hand built set of six race cars (but an undying legend among Corvette fans).

Agreed on "Super"

Perhaps on Insignia ( I dislike the car intensely), but Opel is a wildcard there.

[wildcat]

. . . a wildcard there.

What, you say call it a new Buick "Wildcard"

[Camino LS6]

What, you say call it a new Buick "Wildcard"

I wouldn't want to be responsible for trying to market "Wildcard".

[Camino LS6]

Back to Pontiac (anyone mind?)

An idea was broached on another board that a grouping of Pontiac with Saturn (and maybe Saab and/or Hummer) begins to give the idea af a new, independent company a better shot.

[wildcat]

How do you feel about the suggestion that allowing anyone to buy Pontiac... or Saturn... or whatever... almost guarantees another competitor for GM? (Which it doesn't need.)

[Croc]

I've advocated for pairing Pontiac with SAAB for about a year now...they have a lot in common. Saturn IMO should just go away, but hey if that fanatical fan base wants to take on Pontiac and/or other brands, I won't stop them, either.

[Camino LS6]

How do you feel about the suggestion that allowing anyone to buy Pontiac... or Saturn... or whatever... almost guarantees another competitor for GM? (Which it doesn't need.)

Truthfully, I'd have mixed feelings about that.

The devil would be in the details and what the focus of the new company and of GM might be after the dust settles.

A cooperative arrangement is an interesting possibility.

Sort of like splitting the Roman Empire into east and west.

[wildcat]

I'd rather GM keep Pontiac then let someone else have it. It should be a cherished GM icon, now and always.

How do you like Croc's suggestion of pairing Pontiac with Saab? What to you would be a ideal model mix of that?

[Camino LS6]

I'd rather GM keep Pontiac then let someone else have it. It should be a cherished GM icon, now and always.

How do you like Croc's suggestion of pairing Pontiac with Saab? What to you would be a ideal model mix of that?

There is so little strength in Saab, that it may hurt more than help. I think that a pairing with Saturn would have a better chance, and if Saab came along for the ride it might be ok.

Just seeing a workable plan would do my heart good.

[wildcat]

I'm sure, but I worry that GM, on the whole, is such a group of stumblebums. Pontiac + Saturn + Saab might be a formidable competitor.

[Camino LS6]

I'm sure, but I worry that GM, on the whole, is such a group of stumblebums. Pontiac + Saturn + Saab might be a formidable competitor.

Maybe.

But GM would still have the powerhouse of Chevrolet and much greater resources behind it.

Pontiac,Saturn, Saab, would have the tougher road to travel by far.

[Croc]

Saturn and Pontiac just aren't differentiated enough for me. SAAB, however, is a premium brand, and they have the history of turbo performance. Both brands with a performance niche, common unifier IMO.

Saturn...ugh. I'm not going to think about Saturn.

[Camino LS6]

Saturn and Pontiac just aren't differentiated enough for me. SAAB, however, is a premium brand, and they have the history of turbo performance. Both brands with a performance niche, common unifier IMO.

Saturn...ugh. I'm not going to think about Saturn.

I share your distaste for Saturn, but Saab is too miniscule to help the case much.

[wildcat]

Maybe I should have said GM, in large part, seems like a bunch of stumblebums at times. I know there are many sincere employees with the company, even at this late date.

Camino LS6: What could, for instance, Pontiac + Saturn do "on their own" that GM wasn;'t able to do with, as you concede, much greater resources?

Croc: Who would have the "upper hand" in a union of Pontiac + Saab? What would the model mix look like? Are you suggesting a mixture of the models as we know them now (G8, Solstice, etc) or completely new models?

[gm4life]

Well Croc certainly brings up an interesting point. I personally would love to see Pontiac stay with GM and get the product portfolio they deserve, that won't happen (at least not likely) short of that letting Pontiac go free is a great idea. Or the other option death, GM said they wanted them dead and now that someone wants them, will GM want them back now? Because someone has realized Pontiac's value could GM get smart and give Pontiac the product line-up they deserve? I am doubitng it, so short of GM doing what is right by them, this seems to be a great idea and something GM should seriously consider. It would help a state in need of jobs ALOT. I see lots of potential and with some good marketing and smart people you might have something. I would love to see them hire Jim Wangers, and put some American's back to work without a Union. Is it a pipe dream sure, but could it happen, why not. So GM will sell Saturn or Hummer but not Pontiac? That makes alot of sense, I just hope GM lets Pontiac go or gives them the line-up and chance they deserve.

Edited May 2, 2009 by gm4life

[Camino LS6]

Maybe I should have said GM, in large part, seems like a bunch of stumblebums at times. I know there are many sincere employees with the company, even at this late date.

Camino LS6: What could, for instance, Pontiac + Saturn do "on their own" that GM wasn;'t able to do with, as you concede, much greater resources?

Croc: Who would have the "upper hand" in a union of Pontiac + Saab? What would the model mix look like? Are you suggesting a mixture of the models as we know them now (G8, Solstice, etc) or completely new models?

Tough question to answer, but this new entity would be free of GM's more plodding management.

Too many possibilities for a meaningful answer until questions like the one you have asked Croc get answered.

That's why a synergistic relationship makes sense to me. Where GM isn't taking the gamble, but stands to benefit if the new venture succeeds.

Money is what it would take - and lots of it.

[wildcat]

I would love to see them hire Jim Wangers

There's a man who knows and understands Pontiac! (I don't care if he is presently 83, that's got nothing to do with it. He's still alive.)

[Z-06]

I share your distaste for Saturn, but Saab is too miniscule to help the case much.

I think the reason why Croc puts them together is because, both have been quirky in their own way.

SAAB may be minuscule here, but it can be a huge potential in Europe, just like we think Pontiac has a huge potential. If those two share the same vehicles, with RWD treatment in some cases, then a legitimate case can be made for a symbiosis and potential survival of both brands under GM umbrella.

[Camino LS6]

I just want to say thank you to everyone for taking this thread where I hoped it might go!

In spite of everything - including me.

Let the ideas flow...

[wildcat]

this new entity would be free of GM's more plodding management

Wouldn't it be bad p.r. for GM to allow anyone to make it look bad; besides, certain GM management has done a bang-up job of it themselves already.

Is it possible to make shuttered iconic GM divisions into limited-edition "satellite partners"? For example, GM's Pontiac "partnership," where GM still owns everything but licenses model names, architectures, etc. to some conglomeration of businessman / investors / dealers / fans? Just trying to suggest something.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Since GM might try to take Holden down too, why can't it be Saturn, Saab, Pontiac, and Holden?

[Camino LS6]

Wouldn't it be bad p.r. for GM to allow anyone to make it look bad; besides, certain GM management has done a bang-up job of it themselves already.

Is it possible to make shuttered iconic GM divisions into limited-edition "satellite partners"? For example, GM's Pontiac "partnership," where GM still owns everything but licenses model names, architectures, etc. to some conglomeration of businessman / investors / dealers / fans? Just trying to suggest something.

That is an idea I like quite a bit, actually.

As for GM's PR, having a narrower focus (Chevy,Buick,Caddy,GMC) would help to solve the management problem, I'd think.

[wildcat]

CaddyXLR-V: It could, as long as that doesn't slice the pie into too thin pieces for each. Edited May 2, 2009 by wildcat

[Camino LS6]

Since GM might try to take Holden down too, why can't it be Saturn, Saab, Pontiac, and Holden?

Heaven incarnate!

[Camino LS6]

I really think it would be so much better for all concerned to see a positive arrangement of more independent "children" of GM to dispell the wounded giant perception of the company as it is now.

I'd even like to explore the possibilities of GM morphing into a confederation of semi-independent brands that have to prove their own viability but benefit from the cost-savings of a loose GM umbrella.

[CaddyXLR-V]

It could, as long as that doesn't slice the pie into too thin pieces for each.

Saturn would be entry level, while Saab could move upmarket slightly. Pontiac would be the performance car brand, and Holden will be predominantly Australian, and exporting cars like the G8, ute, Monaro to be used as Pontiacs.

[Z-06]

I really think it would be so much better for all concerned to see a positive arrangement of more independent "children" of GM to dispell the wounded giant perception of the company as it is now.

I'd even like to explore the possibilities of GM morphing into a confederation of semi-independent brands that have to prove their own viability but benefit from the cost-savings of a loose GM umbrella.

I think that is what precisely P-C-S was referring to when he made the comments of GM as a body dying and the parts needed to survive.

[wildcat]

Or make a small, separate "GM Performance" partnership, which could include Pontiacs (the GTO, G8, Trans Am) and Oldsmobile (a 4-4-2, a Toronado, etc.) or ??? Maybe not a big enough market. Scrap GMC Trucks, give Chevy or Caddy the "denalis" or whatevere someone feels is important and profitable, and call this company G-M-C Heritage.

[gm4life]

There's a man who knows and understands Pontiac! (I don't care if he is presently 83, that's got nothing to do with it. He's still alive.)

That is exactly why I would let him run the company, or at least play a role in it.

[Camino LS6]

The thing is, I just don't have high hopes of GM shrinking its way to viability. The stigma of failure and surrender is too strong.

They need a more creative solution that people can get behind.

[Cory Wolfe]

Personally, given that the resources are there to do so, I think someone other than GM could most certainly take the brand further than GM has themselves. Their own mishaps have more than helped put Pontiac in the position it is currently in. The nature of Pontiac is not flawed.