General Motors Chief Rick Wagoner Said to Step Down

[Drew Dowdell]

Dow is down 280 points due to Obama throwing out his "personal" plan to reconstruct GM/Chrystler... this just 15 min. before he is to speak about it (10:45 EST here right now). Watch for the stocks to plummet more. Obama has NO right to try and tell GM how to run it's business. This IS a sad day, for us and GM and another blow to America as a whole for '09. Obama should've been the first to go before Wagoner.

GM how we know it will be dead. Cars we want/like (Corvette, Camaro, V8 G8's, anything "fun") will be gone. Don't expect a 6th gen Camaro or C7. Buy em up now and say bye.

Hyperbole. The Dow is down due to the fundamentals sucking and the fact that last week's "rally" was false. We're heading to 6500 with or without GM.

Obama has every right to say "If you want the loan, you have to make these changes", "Your restructuring plan was terrible and counts on unicorns replacing UAW workers. No loan for you."

[Drew Dowdell]

Sorry but I'm still a bit irate about this, letting Wagoner go is Obama's scapegoat. Why wasn't Gettlefinger told to leave? A lot of what the UAW has done has put GM down this path?

Gettlefinger is already going.

Wagoner needed to go.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Mostly unrelated events.

The Dow is going to go to 6500 and it's going to take the rest of the world with it. The "rally" last week was a false one brought on by irrational reactions to housing news.

But then again, the reason it is so low is because everyone is in wait and see mode. Some strong companies are trading at very low prices right now.

[Camino LS6]

My main gripe is the delay, uncertainty is making everything worse and worse.

Just give them what they need or tell them no.

[Chris_Doane]

There you can all calm down now...

"Let me be clear: the United States government has no interest or intention of running GM."

[CaddyXLR-V]

Hyperbole. The Dow is down due to the fundamentals sucking and the fact that last week's "rally" was false. We're heading to 6500 with or without GM.

Obama has every right to say "If you want the loan, you have to make these changes", "Your restructuring plan was terrible and counts on unicorns replacing UAW workers. No loan for you."

I agree. And I think Obama learned that the govt can't loan out the money, and continue to change the terms after the fact. Set the terms at the beginning, and if they don't like the terms, they don't take the money.

The sad truth is, GM should have never let itself get into the position it is in now, where is needs govt loans/handouts to stay in business, and is at the mercy of the economy. But when you can't make money in good times, you can't put away money for bad times.

[hyperv6]

Mostly unrelated events.

The Dow is going to go to 6500 and it's going to take the rest of the world with it. The "rally" last week was a false one brought on by irrational reactions to housing news.

According to the people who know on several networks it is Wall Street reaction due to what is happening in the auto indusrty nothing else. People are bailing out. Now will the market recover from this reaction only time will tell.

As it is now GM has to do what the goverment says as they have recieved public funds. The goverment has not teated all buisness equally nor will they as they neve have at anytime in our history. Now in hind site Rick did mess up taking these moneys from the goverment. Chapter 11 would have been painful but now it is looking more appealing all the time.

The question I have is if GM would file Chapter 11 on say Tuesday would they be release from Goverment intervention? I don't know if they would be able to write off the goverment debt or not?

If so Chapter 11 is looking more appealing all the time.

I just wish the goverment would have some creditable people involved here calling the shots with true automotive industry and rebuilding experience. If your pipe break in your house you call a plumber not a brick layer. I just have not seen the kind of people involved that would give Wall Street the confidence they need to see GM as a good investment. The people there were smart enough to know taking Rick out was a PR move and nothing more.

It may fool the American people by removing Rick but it will not fool Wall Street. They see this as if it can happen to GM it can happen to any company.

The goverment may not want to run GM but they would have no problems wanting to controling GM.

Placing all the blaime on Rick ro even the UAW is just simple. The problems that needs address are so much more than that. The system in the way GM operated is being changes to what it needs to be but it is far from complete. The goverment needs to come in and work to complete the change of GM to a global auto MFG as they need to be like the compitition already is.

Edited March 30, 2009 by hyperv6

[CaddyXLR-V]

According to the people who know on several networks it is Wall Street reaction due to what is happening in the auto indusrty nothing else. People are bailing out. Now will the market recover from this reaction only time will tell.

No, it has more to do with what Tim Geithner said than anything else. He came out and said there will be more losses at banks, and they "may" need more help. That scares investers, because if you own shares in a company, and the government injects money into that company, your shares are diluted, and are now worth less. People hear the news, and stocks drop even at stronger banks that wont need any help.

And when bank stocks drop, so does the rest of the market. This recession will start, and end, with the financial sector.

Edited March 30, 2009 by CaddyXLR-V

[hyperv6]

No, it has more to do with what Tim Geithner said than anything else. He came out and said there will be more losses at banks, and they "may" need more help. That scares investers, because if you own shares in a company, and the government injects money into that company, your shares are diluted, and are now worth less. People hear the news, and stocks drop even at stronger banks that wont need any help.

Stocks are at -270.25 at the end of the speach so lets see where it goes.

[Drew Dowdell]

According to the people who know on several networks it is Wall Street reaction due to what is happening in the auto industry nothing else. People are bailing out. Now will the market recover from this reaction only time will tell.

As it is now GM has to do what the government says as they have received public funds. The government has not treated all business equally nor will they as they never have at anytime in our history. Now in hind site Rick did mess up taking these moneys from the government. Chapter 11 would have been painful but now it is looking more appealing all the time.

The question I have is if GM would file Chapter 11 on say Tuesday would they be release from dovernment intervention? I don't know if they would be able to write off the government debt or not?

If so Chapter 11 is looking more appealing all the time.

I just wish the government would have some creditable people involved here calling the shots with true automotive industry and rebuilding experience. If your pipe break in your house you call a plumber not a brick layer. I just have not seen the kind of people involved that would give Wall Street the confidence they need to see GM as a good investment. The people there were smart enough to know taking Rick out was a PR move and nothing more.

It may fool the American people by removing Rick but it will not fool Wall Street.

You're under the assumption that Wall Street reacts rationally to things? Really?

Want to see the cause of that last rally?

Here... let me blow that up for you.

A Chapter 11 was necessary in October and it's necessary now.

[Drew Dowdell]

Stocks are at -270.25 at the end of the speach so lets see where it goes.

Just be careful about causality. The stocks are going to drop. Period.

[BuddyP]

I agree. And I think Obama learned that the govt can't loan out the money, and continue to change the terms after the fact. Set the terms at the beginning, and if they don't like the terms, they don't take the money.

The sad truth is, GM should have never let itself get into the position it is in now, where is needs govt loans/handouts to stay in business, and is at the mercy of the economy. But when you can't make money in good times, you can't put away money for bad times.

Which is why Chapt 11 should've happened first thing. Get it done and over with vs it still straggling on and pulling our economy with it.

[BuddyP]

Gettlefinger is already going.

Not for another year... which leaves him there for the next 60 days that Obbie is giving them to restructure and to come to "terms" with.

[BuddyP]

There you can all calm down now...

"Let me be clear: the United States government has no interest or intention of running GM."

If this guy made one statement and actually stuck to it vs being nothing but lies, I may actually be able to believe this. But as of now it's a complete power trip. If they had no interest then why are they interviening (sorry about the spelling). He will do all he can to keep Chapt 11 from happening. If Chapt 11 happens, his beloved unions may be no more.

Edited March 30, 2009 by BuddyP

[Drew Dowdell]

If this guy made one statement and stuck to it, I may actually be able to believe this. But as of now it's a complete power trip. If they had no interest then why are they interviening (sorry about the spelling).

Because GM came to them for money....

[hyperv6]

You're under the assumption that Wall Street reacts rationally to things? Really?

Want to see the cause of that last rally?

Here... let me blow that up for you.

A Chapter 11 was necessary in October and it's necessary now.

Never said they react rationally I just said they will react. Don't twist words or meanings. You have your opinion and I have mine.

It's about buying and selling to make a buck nothing rational applies here.

Either way the market is not going to recover long term for a while all we will see are short gains and loses based on the latest press release from each and ever problem. I just see Wall Street being negitive on the president removing a CEO and controling GM. I would have a hard time investing in a company like GM being directed by the US Goverment no matter who is in charge.

The loans are a good option depending on what the goverment is going to require but that keeps changing like CAFE and Emission rules. What they will require depends who is in office.

Right now under the present conditions Chapter 11 looks like a better option Painful but better option than goverment directing a company.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Never said they react rationally I just said they will react. Don't twist words or meanings. You have your opinion and I have mine.

It's about buying and selling to make a buck nothing rational applies here.

Either way the market is not going to recover long term for a while all we will see are short gains and loses based on the latest press release from each and ever problem. I just see Wall Street being negitive on the president removing a CEO and controling GM. I would have a hard time investing in a company like GM being directed by the US Goverment no matter who is in charge.

The loans are a good option depending on what the goverment is going to require but that keeps changing like CAFE and Emission rules. What they will require depends who is in office.

Right now under the present conditions Chapter 11 looks like a better option Painful but better option than goverment directing a company.

Investing in GM right now amounts to nothing more than gambling your money away. The government doesn't want to control GM, but they don't want to keep giving GM money if they will never become a viable company either. There is a time when you need to look at the business side of things, and not react from an emotional side. GM is just a terrible business to invest in. They need massive restructuring before that will change.

[turbo200]

Never said they react rationally I just said they will react. Don't twist words or meanings. You have your opinion and I have mine.

It's about buying and selling to make a buck nothing rational applies here.

Either way the market is not going to recover long term for a while all we will see are short gains and loses based on the latest press release from each and ever problem. I just see Wall Street being negitive on the president removing a CEO and controling GM. I would have a hard time investing in a company like GM being directed by the US Goverment no matter who is in charge.

The loans are a good option depending on what the goverment is going to require but that keeps changing like CAFE and Emission rules. What they will require depends who is in office.

Right now under the present conditions Chapter 11 looks like a better option Painful but better option than goverment directing a company.

yes but it's nothing abnormal for the stock market to react to a plan that involves risk and potential impact. cbs corp. is down on the loss of ad revenues coming from auto sector. does that make sense? well the stock market is a predicator, it's based on future revenue. and right now, they are uncertain, as we are all, about how and what could happen. it's not something shocking nor troublesome like you are trying to paint it. the stocks will see some major gyrations as the quarters come to an end and results start pouring in, very soon.

the doubt of and bad blood towards obama and the words against him are coming from detractors who've always been detractors. nothing more nothing less.

edit: i believe obama when he says the gov't doesn't want control of GM. why would anyone want control of it? they already have a big stake in citi, they could have taken it over plenty of times, and yet the laws they wrote prevent that exact thing from happening. they do not want to nationalize. the reason they've pumped money into GM is because like oldsmoboi said GM came for money, GM is big, and obama didn't want the job losses as well as subsequent economical impact during already bad times.

Edited March 30, 2009 by turbo200

[Drew Dowdell]

yes but it's nothing abnormal for the stock market to react to a plan that involves risk and potential impact. cbs corp. is down on the loss of ad revenues coming from everywhere.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Opel we hope. There is no point for them anymore. Chevy is growing in Europe. Cut Opel, Saab, and Vauxhall to free up marketing dollars/euros for Chevy and Cadillac.

Nah, it won't be Opel, as for Cadillac, it is being withdrawn from half of European market. What I think you will see in the near future is the outright killing of Pontiac, no RWD will be safe now under any brand, including the Corvette ...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This is a move that needed to happen and had to happen.

I feel bad for Rick. He's a good guy and he did his best. GM's just a clusterf@#k of decades of doing ABSOLUTELY the WRONG things and Rick was one of the casualties of that.

He has nothing to be ashamed of, IMO. I don't think anyone could've saved GM except the american people. And they can't even save themselves.

[Drew Dowdell]

Stocks are at -270.25 at the end of the speach so lets see where it goes.

almost 2 hours later and the market is essentially flat

[BuddyP]

Because GM came to them for money....

They came to them for a loan.... not to beg for free money. GM is paying interest for that money. If you run a business and need to go to the bank for a business loan, they have no right to say "ok, but you need to remove yourself from the business and we'll appoint someone else to take your place".

If we want to follow this all they way back when Clinton initiated the Community Reinvestment Act, which is what caused the housing bubble buildup with finally burst at the end of '08, causing the financial meltdown, maybe it was the gov't duty to provide them $$ for initially screwing up their creditors..... but that's a whole story in itself.

Essentially, all the money that GM has received from the gov't, has taken place to the large sums of $$ that GM put into the unions over the past year.

This is basically another UNION bailout by big brother.

Edited March 30, 2009 by BuddyP

[Drew Dowdell]

Nah, it won't be Opel, as for Cadillac, it is being withdrawn from half of European market. What I think you will see in the near future is the outright killing of Pontiac, no RWD will be safe now under any brand, including the Corvette ...

Re: Cadillac - It was their distributor who is out of cash.

Saab, Hummer, Saturn, Opel, Vauxhaul should ALL go before Pontiac does.

[Drew Dowdell]

They came to them for a loan.... not to beg for free money. GM is paying interest for that money. If you run a business and need to go to the bank for a business loan, they have no right to say "ok, but you need to remove yourself from the business and we'll appoint someone else to take your place".

If we want to follow this all they way back when Clinton initiated the Community Reinvestment Act, which is what caused the housing bubble buildup with finally burst at the end of '08, causing the financial meltdown, maybe it was the gov't duty to provide them $ for initially screwing up their creditors..... but that's a whole story in itself.

Essentially, all the money that GM has received from the gov't, has taken place to the large sums of $ that GM put into the unions over the past year.

This is basically another UNION bailout by big brother.

If you go to a bank for a loan and you have questionable finances... you'd be surprised what a bank can demand in exchange for a loan.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I just got off the phone with President Obama. Looks like I'm going to be the new CEO of General Motors since he's so impressed with how I turned around C&G's finances.

PR

[Intrepidation]

no RWD will be safe now under any brand, including the Corvette ...

Do you really feel the need to throw in this bit? It was unnecessary to say, unless you just get a kick out of riling people up.

[CaddyXLR-V]

If you go to a bank for a loan and you have questionable finances... you'd be surprised what a bank can demand in exchange for a loan.

Or the bank might just say no. No one wanted to invest in GM, that's why they needed to turn to the govt. And if GM doesn't like their terms, they have the right to refuse the loan...

[CaddyXLR-V]

Do you really feel the need to throw in this bit? It was unnecessary to say, unless you just get a kick out of riling people up.

Hey don't worry, we just won't need to buy GM cars anymore. There are still other companies that will never abandon RWD.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Do you really feel the need to throw in this bit? It was unnecessary to say, unless you just get a kick out of riling people up.

Sure it was necessary to say, no one should be under any illusions as to how bad GM is financially, all things considered, I don't know if GM is going to survive ...

[Drew Dowdell]

Or the bank might just say no. No one wanted to invest in GM, that's why they needed to turn to the govt. And if GM doesn't like their terms, they have the right to refuse the loan...

GM apparently was fine with the terms of the loan and Wags had to go.

[Camino LS6]

Sure it was necessary to say, no one should be under any illusions as to how bad GM is financially, all things considered, I don't know if GM is going to survive ...

Not having RWD certainly isn't going to help them survive - especially Corvette.

Kill Corvette and you may as well order the tombstone now.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Not having RWD certainly isn't going to help them survive - especially Corvette.

Kill Corvette and you may as well order the tombstone now.

Hopefully they have enough sense to sell the Corvette to someone who will keep it alive if GM does go under.

[hyperv6]

almost 2 hours later and the market is essentially flat

Ok?

I feel so much better now that the same people handling the AIG turn around are now giving GM direction.

Edited March 30, 2009 by hyperv6

[CaddyXLR-V]

Ok?

I feel so much better now that the same people handling the AIG turn around are now giving GM direction.

GM was falling off a cliff. Any direction would be better than the one they were headed in, or, at least it couldn't be a worse direction.

[Daryl Z71]

Just file for bankruptcy now GM...

[pow]

If you go to a bank for a loan and you have questionable finances... you'd be surprised what a bank can demand in exchange for a loan.

Exactly. The government (bank) didn't think GM or Chrysler had viable business plans, nor did the companies meet the loan requirement terms, i.e., labor modifications, VEBA modifications, and bond debt exchange - so of course they won't lend money to somebody who'll lose it all.

[BuddyP]

almost 2 hours later and the market is essentially flat

-330 at 3:00pm EST

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Inves...hes-033009.aspx

[SAmadei]

Hopefully they have enough sense to sell the Corvette to someone who will keep it alive if GM does go under.

AH! I just had a flash of what the Toyota-build C7 Corvette might be like. My eyes hurt! Better to die...

[CaddyXLR-V]

AH! I just had a flash of what the Toyota-build C7 Corvette might be like. My eyes hurt! Better to die...

I'd rather it go to Hyundai than Toyota. Though, I guess Toyota is still better than being owned by Chery, slightly. I was thinking maybe an independant American company though.

[SAmadei]

I'd rather it go to Hyundai than Toyota. Though, I guess Toyota is still better than being owned by Chery, slightly. I was thinking maybe an independant American company though.

LOL... just swap out the V's on the nameplate... a 2014 Chery Corrette! It's like buying a Rolecks.

Edited March 30, 2009 by SAmadei

[CaddyXLR-V]

LOL... just swap out the V's on the nameplate... a 2014 Chery Corrette! It's like buying a Rolecks.

That made me laugh, despite how sad it would be.

They could also revive the Chery Rega, and and Chery Corrair.

Edited March 30, 2009 by CaddyXLR-V

[haypops]

Ok?

I feel so much better now that the same people handling the AIG turn around are now giving GM direction.

auto nation guru thinks the board is doing a fine job

[turbo200]

GM's most fatal flaw today? this no longer is child's play; people all over the internet are discussing intricate details of this, we're more informed and better equipped today to know what is going on inside the company. aside from that, there's more casual observers than ever before, the people who just know some of the details and maybe wrongly informed or half as informed as we are.

Where's the freakin statement of assurance? Where's the public statement releasing public records and achievements of Fritz Henderson? Where's the assurance that GM is going to get through this? that they're going to do thier best to fulfill viability requirements going forward. that they're working their hardest with the dispatched team to get concessions and work on more aggressive restructuring....

yet again they are a child lost in the woods, seemingly, not being able to answer any questions about when where why and how. only because they themselves don't hold the answers.

seriously, did the PR department just stop receiving payments a last october when GM was running out of cash and get completely dismantled? I haven't heard anything out of them except for the monthly sales reports.

[Croc]

They came to them for a loan.... not to beg for free money. GM is paying interest for that money. If you run a business and need to go to the bank for a business loan, they have no right to say "ok, but you need to remove yourself from the business and we'll appoint someone else to take your place".

I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. When you go to a bank for a loan, they want a business plan. If they don't like the business plan, you don't get the loan. The government is doing nothing differently than looking at the business plans (viability plans) and giving the yay or ney...but unlike a bank, the companies are getting some feedback on this. And hey, Wagoner didn't have to step down! He could have soldiered on, bleeding red ink all through the courthouse as GM goes through bankruptcy proceedings.

This was the right decision, just too late.

[enzl]

I'm shocked pleasantly surprised that Barry and the Boyz got tough with the Little 2.

This is nothing more or less than a prime example of how Politics & Biz intersect, much to the detriment of all involved.

There are NO good choices here. Regardless of your political bent. GM as we know it will be irrevocably changed in '09.

Looking forward to how this all pans out...I'm in the 'glass-half full' zone right now. See me in 60 days or so....

Edited March 31, 2009 by enzl

[BuddyP]

I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. When you go to a bank for a loan, they want a business plan. If they don't like the business plan, you don't get the loan. The government is doing nothing differently than looking at the business plans (viability plans) and giving the yay or ney...but unlike a bank, the companies are getting some feedback on this. And hey, Wagoner didn't have to step down! He could have soldiered on, bleeding red ink all through the courthouse as GM goes through bankruptcy proceedings.

This was the right decision, just too late.

You know what was rubbish? When the first loan/bailout was givin, they were told "You have until the end of the year". Then it was "here's some more money, you have until the end of March". Now it's "Here's some more money, you have 60 days". WTF!!! I said from day one, let em Chapt 11, restructure and get it over with... don't drag the suffering out. It's just constantly reopening a wound.

The Gov't has NO place getting in this deep in these businesses. It's nothing but a HUGE POWER GRAB.

Why was Wagoner being the sole target? Why not the CFO and all of the exects? Why was Henderson put in his place no questions asked? WHY DIDN'T OBAMA GET ON THE UNION'S/GETTLEFINGERS CASE! How the F**k does some ex-community organizer know that what's good for GM.

Everything this gov't and Congress has recently done is absolutly out of control.

Kiss your GM goodbye folks. Say good bye to any favorite car you had. It's dead.

Edited March 31, 2009 by BuddyP

[turbo200]

You know what was rubbish? When the first loan/bailout was givin, they were told "You have until the end of the year". Then it was "here's some more money, you have until the end of March". Now it's "Here's some more money, you have 60 days". WTF!!! I said from day one, let em Chapt 11, restructure and get it over with... don't drag the suffering out. It's just constantly reopening a wound.

The Gov't has NO place getting in this deep in these businesses. It's nothing but a HUGE POWER GRAB.

Why was Wagoner being the sole target? Why not the CFO and all of the exects? Why was Henderson put in his place no questions asked? WHY DIDN'T OBAMA GET ON THE UNION'S/GETTLEFINGERS CASE! How the F**k does some ex-community organizer know that what's good for GM.

Everything this gov't and Congress has recently done is absolutly out of control.

Kiss your GM goodbye folks. Say good bye to any favorite car you had. It's dead.

calm down. why would president care for power with GM? they're not that big a deal, especially with wall street. they've been the black sheep for years, arguably the step child looked over by everyone because of all the bad things dragging business profitability down, and yet they employed enough and sold enough to stay relevant and necessary. I repeat, why the heck would president care about a power grab. he's one of the most popular presidents we've ever had, he's consistently most watched, his opinions sway public polls, the people are on his side. he could take over citi and that would be good with the people if he explained it was necessary. why would he care about GM?

[BuddyP]

calm down. why would president care for power with GM? they're not that big a deal, especially with wall street. they've been the black sheep for years, arguably the step child looked over by everyone because of all the bad things dragging business profitability down, and yet they employed enough and sold enough to stay relevant and necessary. I repeat, why the heck would president care about a power grab. he's one of the most popular presidents we've ever had, he's consistently most watched, his opinions sway public polls, the people are on his side. he could take over citi and that would be good with the people if he explained it was necessary. why would he care about GM?

It's a power grab in general. He's says in his speech today that the gov't doesn't want to intervien with GM's business, yet goes on to say how they are going to get involved. Which is Mr. Obama? I know the only reason Wagoner is gone is just a scapegoat for Obama to throw more money and them (READ: save/bailout the UAW) and not have the US citizens in a uproar about giving them more money. Not saying Rick shouldn't have been let go, but this should've been no place for Obbie to get involved in. McCain said pre-election to let GM go bankrupt... as I see it now, he was right. Just as he was several years back in predicting and warning about the housing bubble.

As far as the president, yeah it's amazing as to how many people are brainwashed to follow this messiah. Fortunatly some are starting to see the light. His poll numbers are falling like the DOW. What he said pre election is now the complete opposite now that he's in power.... I could go on and on but this isn't the place or the post for it. As far as I'm concerened, he should be the first to go.

[balthazar]

>>"Everything this gov't and Congress has recently done is absolutly out of control."<<

I don't think this could be over-expressed.

>>"Kiss your GM goodbye folks"<<

Afraid this is getting more & more likely everyday. Only good thing for me is that 'my' GM has been gone a long while ('57-65), but there will always be examples to own & love & drive.

-- -- -- -- --

>>"I repeat, why the heck would president care about a power grab."<<

Not the power grab of controlling GM; the picture is far wider than that.

>>"he's one of the most popular presidents we've ever had, he's consistently most watched, his opinions sway public polls, the people are on his side."<<

Calm down- he only won 52% of the vote. A number of presidents since WWII had greater vote percentages AND margins of victory than BHO. And his approval ratings have been dropping... The peak was the $170M Party You Weren't Invited To, on Inauguration Day. Every day since... the hangover keeps getting worse.

>>"why would he care about GM?"<<

If they weren't unionized, GM would have already been thru Cha 11...

If that's not clear; I've not seen anything believable that suggests he does care.