LeftLane News: Cadillac DT7 Flagship Sedan To Be Based On FWD Platform.

[Intrepidation]

I would never say any Lexus had anything over the Sixteen, that's just going too far. However, adding some front end and side detailing like the CTS and Converj would bring it back up to date.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Jeez, a large Epsilon Cadillac... that will not fly with me... There are more than enough compelling reasons for me to pick a Town Car over the current DTS, moving it from G- to a platform that in in a shorter iteration sells a 20K$ 4-Cylinder Chevrolet is just a step too far. At least Ford had the good sense to put the MKS on the D3 Platform instead of what the Fusion rides on...

[SAmadei]

Wouldn't sales over the last 30 years or so say the consumer has decided upon FWD?

Sales over the last 30 years says the consumer buys what their friends have, what the media recommends and what has the biggest incentives.

Modern technology has made cars ride and handle like a dream compared with old tech, but the general public does not realize which wheels are powered, and has no idea the compromises they are making.

The most technical opinion people have about cars is what color it is.

What kind of car do you drive? A blue one.

[DBeaSSt]

Not everyone likes AWD.

Just because I live in New England does not mean

I want it shoved down my throat. just offer it on

the higher end models & let the consumer decide.

I completely agree.

Not everyone lives in the snow belt either. On the RARE occasion when I truly need AWD, I go get the truck out of the barn and throw it in 4WD.

Should AWD be available? Absolutely. Should AWD be standard? Absolutely NOT! This isn't the SUV/Crossover market, it's the sedan market.

[ocnblu]

Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Porsche. RWD stalwarts, doing just fine. Even Lexus, that wart at the top of Toyota's heap, has RWD at the top of their range and in the IS, a car meant to be taken seriously as a driver's luxury car.

What exactly does GM want Cadillac to be? They ventured into serious territory with the original CTS, came into their own with the current car, and now, all indicators point toward a retreat from their foray into the top tier.

Too damn bad for them. It was fun while it lasted. At least we'll have the CTS-V Coupe as a Last Hurrah (if it makes it to market).

[ehaase]

Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Porsche. RWD stalwarts, doing just fine.

Mercedes is not doing just fine. Please scroll down to the last half of this article - http://www.christonium.com/automotive/ItemID=12358563534419

Even BMW is worried - http://www.leftlanenews.com/ceo-says-bmw-i...e-concerns.html

[Robert Hall]

Mercedes is not doing just fine. Please scroll down to the last half of this article - http://www.christonium.com/automotive/ItemID=12358563534419

Even BMW is worried - http://www.leftlanenews.com/ceo-says-bmw-i...e-concerns.html

That's because of the recessions in multiple countries currently, though. Not because of the inherent goodness/superiority of RWD.

[Z-06]

Mercedes is not doing just fine. Please scroll down to the last half of this article - http://www.christonium.com/automotive/ItemID=12358563534419

Even BMW is worried - http://www.leftlanenews.com/ceo-says-bmw-i...e-concerns.html

Tell me one company that is doing good. The point OCN is making is that Cadillac needs to be focussed and should know what it should be and its customers should be, which is inherently lacking with this AWD, FWD BS which has cropped up again in GM's life.

[regfootball]

all luxury marques that were peddling RWD cars have had to add AWD as a feature to keep their product lines salable. Like prior poster said, maybe the AWD should be optional, but in the case of Cadillac, my guess is they gave in the Eps platform simply out of need to not want to develop another rear bias platform.

the real question is why wasn't Zeta designed for AWD capable. Again, shortsightedness on the part of the General.

[Drew Dowdell]

Wouldn't sales over the last 30 years or so say the consumer has decided upon FWD?

You think if the Camry were switched to RWD but kept the same look, sales would suddenly tank?

[Drew Dowdell]

surfacing typical of lutz, so watery smooth like a lexus but dull with no form whatsoever which at least lexus has. in fact that same watery surfacing is prevalent in new SRX-Vue, makes it all nice and soft and RX-ish. the shape should have been left in the '80's, though for a big time imposer-mobile out to show the world who's boss, the shape's not half bad. then you have the features that are outmoded, no one uses such little definition in thier features. tension is where it's at.

You're waaaay over thinking it in a sorta way.

[Drew Dowdell]

Mercedes is not doing just fine. Please scroll down to the last half of this article - http://www.christonium.com/automotive/ItemID=12358563534419

Even BMW is worried - http://www.leftlanenews.com/ceo-says-bmw-i...e-concerns.html

Right, not like there's a global economic melt down or anything..... it's totally because they sell RWD.

[Drew Dowdell]

the real question is why wasn't Zeta designed for AWD capable. Again, shortsightedness on the part of the General.

I understood that it was. Just no products using Zeta+AWD yet.

[Intrepidation]

Zeta: the best platform GM will never utilize.

[smk4565]

Zeta wasn't the answer for the DT7 (bad name) anyway. It isn't a premium platform, it is a Holden/Chevy/Pontiac platform. If they want to go after the S-class and 7-series they need a platform solely for that, otherwise there is no sense in trying. The solution for Cadillac then becomes Sigma needs upgraded, and CTS pushed to a $47-60,000 price class, and Alpha platform (unique to Cadillac) for a small sedan/coupe/convertible in the $35-50k range. If they can get a rear drive version of the volt, that would work also, and Cadillac doesn't do full size anymore. Building more land barges with mush suspension like the DTS will just continue to kill the brand.

[Intrepidation]

Zeta wasn't the answer for the DT7 (bad name) anyway. It isn't a premium platform, it is a Holden/Chevy/Pontiac platform. If they want to go after the S-class and 7-series they need a platform solely for that, otherwise there is no sense in trying. The solution for Cadillac then becomes Sigma needs upgraded, and CTS pushed to a $47-60,000 price class, and Alpha platform (unique to Cadillac) for a small sedan/coupe/convertible in the $35-50k range. If they can get a rear drive version of the volt, that would work also, and Cadillac doesn't do full size anymore. Building more land barges with mush suspension like the DTS will just continue to kill the brand.

You forgot to check your facts again. Zeta was originally developed as a premium platform. The one the G8 and Camaro use is Zeta Light I think they call it, a less expensive version. The Cadillac Zeta would have used things like aluminum suspension bits.

[smk4565]

You forgot to check your facts again. Zeta was originally developed as a premium platform. The one the G8 and Camaro use is Zeta Light I think they call it, a less expensive version. The Cadillac Zeta would have used things like aluminum suspension bits.

Zeta was developed with the Commordore and other large rear drive cars, it was never intended to be specifically for Cadillac. An aluminum suspension isn't enough most luxury cars have that. To go after the S-class would cost GM as much as the 08 Malibu and Volt combined, so it isn't going to happen.

2012 is still a long way too, the STS and DTS will be really dated by then, Cadillac won't have much customer base except for the CTS, and a big front driver isn't the way to win new customers.

[Intrepidation]

It doesn't ,matter, the Zeta platform is as good as anything the Germans have, or have you neglected to read reviews of the G8?

it could very easily be made more premium and built for premium cars, just like a Camry platform can be, only this platform is 1000x better.

[Robert Hall]

Zeta was developed with the Commordore and other large rear drive cars, it was never intended to be specifically for Cadillac. An aluminum suspension isn't enough most luxury cars have that. To go after the S-class would cost GM as much as the 08 Malibu and Volt combined, so it isn't going to happen.

2012 is still a long way too, the STS and DTS will be really dated by then, Cadillac won't have much customer base except for the CTS, and a big front driver isn't the way to win new customers.

A premium larger Cadillac sedan would also need a modern DOHC V8, and they have already cancelled the next gen Northstar. Cadillac is probably going to have a FWD/AWD V6 replacement for the STS/DTS, to compete with the MKS in the $40k-50k FWD/AWD soft-lux market..

[regfootball]

I understood that it was. Just no products using Zeta+AWD yet.

THEN WHY ABANDON THE PLATFORM?????????

PERSONALLY, i was waiting for a DOHC v8 install in a zeta.

[regfootball]

It doesn't ,matter, the Zeta platform is as good as anything the Germans have, or have you neglected to read reviews of the G8?

it could very easily be made more premium and built for premium cars, just like a Camry platform can be, only this platform is 1000x better.

all the zeta would need is some extra fine tuning of the steering and suspension and imagine if it got the corvettes magnetic suspension system.

[smk4565]

A premium larger Cadillac sedan would also need a modern DOHC V8, and they have already cancelled the next gen Northstar. Cadillac is probably going to have a FWD/AWD V6 replacement for the STS/DTS, to compete with the MKS in the $40k-50k FWD/AWD soft-lux market..

Agreed, the MKS is $38-47k, Cadillac may have to price the DT7 overlapping the CTS. So the SRX and DTS are basically moving down market. They don't have the motor or the 7-8 speed tranny to go after the high end sedans. So the question becomes will Cadillac be able to fend off Hyundai who has a rear drive platform, modern V8 and has a more powerful V8 and 8-speed on the way, and the Equus sedan may come here also.

[smk4565]

all the zeta would need is some extra fine tuning of the steering and suspension and imagine if it got the corvettes magnetic suspension system.

The S-class suspension virtually eliminates body roll, pitch or dive with hydraulics and air springs, which goes beyond what the Vette's magnetic shocks can do. The S-class can vary it's ride height also, it is a suspension beyond what GM has at the moment.

To go for the S-class, the chassis, engine, transmission, and suspension would have to be done from scratch almost. That costs a billion dollars easy, that is why they are going to make a $45,000 front diver instead and have the Lexus IS and ES type overlap in price, but going for 2 kinds of buyers.

Edited March 2, 2009 by smk4565

[gm4life]

At least it would be step up from the DTS--maybe even have a 6 speed automatic instead of the ancient 4 speed? But what name--DT7 is lame.

But, a large FWD/AWD Cadillac could be competitive with Lincoln, since the MKS is FWD/AWD.

I happen to agree one traditional large FWD Cadillac isn't a bad idea, provided it has a V8 of some sort and has a six speed automatic standard. I am actually happy, and you know how much I like RWD but I want a balance of the two.

[balthazar]

>>"I disagree with you, I would take it over either of these two cars. As a person who is 6'6" tall and 275, My boss drives an s500 and a fellow engineer here has an A8 and I am not comfortable in either of them when they drive. Big German will stick with his Big American Luxury SUV."<<

I've seen this, too : friend bought a brand new S430, circa '02. Next 2 subsequent purchases ?? - loaded Tahoes LTZs. Absolutely loves them.

>>"The Escalade has it's place, but it is by no means a flagship model. A flagship should never be based on a Chevy platform. "<<

You're stuck in the '80s. There's no such thing as a "Chevy platform (frame)", esp. in the case of trucks. Everything has been corporate for years.

If you meant 'the same frame also used by Chevy'.... not sure anyone outside of hardcore spec enthusiasts would know this, 'cause it certainly has not harmed either sales or the rep of the Escalade.

[regfootball]

A premium larger Cadillac sedan would also need a modern DOHC V8, and they have already cancelled the next gen Northstar. Cadillac is probably going to have a FWD/AWD V6 replacement for the STS/DTS, to compete with the MKS in the $40k-50k FWD/AWD soft-lux market..

face it. lincoln does fine with 350hp out of a v6 and honestly the commies in washington now will try to legislate even that out of existence.

so no v8 may turn out to be fine, however the other thing is that with peoples incomes way down in order to keep cadillac viable it will have to have lower transaction prices, in line with lincoln / acura / basic audis and mercedes.

[regfootball]

Agreed, the MKS is $38-47k, Cadillac may have to price the DT7 overlapping the CTS. So the SRX and DTS are basically moving down market. They don't have the motor or the 7-8 speed tranny to go after the high end sedans. So the question becomes will Cadillac be able to fend off Hyundai who has a rear drive platform, modern V8 and has a more powerful V8 and 8-speed on the way, and the Equus sedan may come here also.

hyundai will need to add AWD to the Genesis because they will also find out after a brief honeymoon period that their dealers will not tolerate them rotting on lots for 6 months over the snowy winter either.

[Intrepidation]

Too bad people are stupid and don't realize RWD works just fine in the winter.

[Robert Hall]

Too bad people are stupid and don't realize RWD works just fine in the winter.

Yes, after all, 30+ years ago, most people (90% or more?) drove RWD in the winter, even in the rust belt. The key, as I learned from my Dad, was snow tires on all 4 wheels and most importantly, knowing how to drive in winter.

[Intrepidation]

Yes, after all, 30+ years ago, most people (90% or more?) drove RWD in the winter, even in the rust belt. The key, as I learned from my Dad, was snow tires on all 4 wheels and most importantly, knowing how to drive in winter.

Exactly (although snow tires on the back is all you need), 4 is nice though.

[Robert Hall]

Exactly (although snow tires on the back is all you need), 4 is nice though.

Yeah, the theory was that having them on the front gives extra traction to help with stopping, at least on old cars that had rear drums. In 60+ years of driving in the Rust Belt, my Dad only had one FWD car and 2 4x4s.. the rest were RWD cars, and a couple RWD pickups.

If I didn't have a 4WD SUV, I'd probably have a RWD car w/ good snow tires like Blizzaks all the way around for winter driving.

Edited March 2, 2009 by moltar

[balthazar]

If you need 4 friggin' snow tires on a RWD car to make it thru the snow, you STILL don't know how to drive RWD in the snow.

[regfootball]

and all your penis waving about the rwd in winter thing, it still ignores the fact that people resist purchasing rwd only cars in snow climes. especially on luxury marques. what part of that is not sinking in.

Edited March 2, 2009 by regfootball

[Intrepidation]

and all your penis waving about the rwd in winter thing, it still ignores the fact that people resist purchasing rwd only cars in snow climes. especially on luxury marques. what part of that is not sinking in.

It's not penis waving, it's having a brain and some common sense.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Yes, after all, 30+ years ago, most people (90% or more?) drove RWD in the winter, even in the rust belt. The key, as I learned from my Dad, was snow tires on all 4 wheels and most importantly, knowing how to drive in winter.

I'm starting to think this way... Obviously I'm most familiar and comfortable with the predictable dynamics of FWD, but I think I reached the epiphany when I was driving the sans safety feature G5 this winter- car control and simple physics I really don't know what I should be afraid of- sure if there's a car that offers RWD and AWD I'll take the AWD for the piece of mind and simplicity but I really don't think that RWD is a Dealbreaker anymore for me... Especially if it's a bigger car 1000$ for snow tires and steel rims plus sandbags in the back and I figure I could be fine.

balthy- I figure I'd get four snow tires instead of two so the car looks the same and I can protect the alloys in the winter, as well as make sure that the treadwear is relatively equal for all four of the fairweather tires.

I suppose you'll be able to tell if I'm a convert if I have the balls to buy a newer Ford Panther as a second car. (I don't want to drive my Impala in the winter)

Edited March 2, 2009 by vonVeezelsnider

[Robert Hall]

If you need 4 friggin' snow tires on a RWD car to make it thru the snow, you STILL don't know how to drive RWD in the snow.

Whatever...4 snow tires are better than 2.

Besides, 4 matching rims looked better than non matching. Back in the day ('88-94), I ran snows from mid-Oct to March in Ohio and Michigan, IIRC. Then summer tires the rest of the year.

Edited March 2, 2009 by moltar

[SAmadei]

It doesn't ,matter, the Zeta platform is as good as anything the Germans have, or have you neglected to read reviews of the G8?

it could very easily be made more premium and built for premium cars, just like a Camry platform can be, only this platform is 1000x better.

Agreed.

Any modern platform can be made to handle like a dream. If aftermarket companies can make '60s iron handle better than new Mustangs, then GM can use Zeta as a premium platform. Its this bean counter ignorance and blindness that is killing the company.

If you need 4 friggin' snow tires on a RWD car to make it thru the snow, you STILL don't know how to drive RWD in the snow.

If you need SNOW TIRES on a RWD car to make it through the snow, you DEFINITELY don't know how to drive RWD in the snow.

As I type, Jersey is getting 6-8 inches of snow and my mother has stranded the FWD Grand Prix in the yard at the other house. The rescue will likely be done with a RWD vehicle with standard tires.

[Intrepidation]

Meh, the standard tires on the GM were &#036;h&#33;..almost bald. So we went with snow tires for the back since it's well, winter.

[smk4565]

and all your penis waving about the rwd in winter thing, it still ignores the fact that people resist purchasing rwd only cars in snow climes. especially on luxury marques. what part of that is not sinking in.

I live in a snowy place, although mostly it is just 1-2 inches, only a few times a year do we get 4+ inches. But I still see a lot of Mustangs, Corvettes, Ford Panther platform cars, the old CTS, 7-series, Lexus LS, and Mercedes without 4Matic. People that care about driving dynamics will buy RWD, they won't get scared away.

[Drew Dowdell]

The S-class suspension virtually eliminates body roll, pitch or dive with hydraulics and air springs, which goes beyond what the Vette's magnetic shocks can do. The S-class can vary it's ride height also, it is a suspension beyond what GM has at the moment.

Yay for 1990's Lincoln technology.

[Drew Dowdell]

I live in a snowy place, although mostly it is just 1-2 inches, only a few times a year do we get 4+ inches. But I still see a lot of Mustangs, Corvettes, Ford Panther platform cars, the old CTS, 7-series, Lexus LS, and Mercedes without 4Matic. People that care about driving dynamics will buy RWD, they won't get scared away.

This is one of the few posts ever where I'll agree with SMK seeing as we live in the same city. There are plenty of rear drivers here in Pittsburgh. I got along just fine in my '04 CTS with 4 snow tires.

As far as snow tires just on the rear..... I guess you people don't need to steer?

[Drew Dowdell]

If you need 4 friggin' snow tires on a RWD car to make it thru the snow, you STILL don't know how to drive RWD in the snow.

It's a question of more control over less.

[Lamar]

I live in a snowy place, although mostly it is just 1-2 inches, only a few times a year do we get 4+ inches. But I still see a lot of Mustangs, Corvettes, Ford Panther platform cars, the old CTS, 7-series, Lexus LS, and Mercedes without 4Matic. People that care about driving dynamics will buy RWD, they won't get scared away.

Although we get snow every winter here (Baltimore), we get quite a bit less than you guys up there. I see a fairly even mix of RWD and AWD (strangely, most of the Infiniti G/M and Lexus IS/GS have the AWD option). The BMWs, MBs, and Cadillacs are either-or.

To everyone else talking about how RWD is perfectly doable with snow tires, what's your advice to people who live in areas where snow tires aren't an expedient purchase?

[Intrepidation]

I live in a snowy place, although mostly it is just 1-2 inches, only a few times a year do we get 4+ inches. But I still see a lot of Mustangs, Corvettes, Ford Panther platform cars, the old CTS, 7-series, Lexus LS, and Mercedes without 4Matic. People that care about driving dynamics will buy RWD, they won't get scared away.

Amazingly, I can come to an agreement with you, although I can do you 1 or more better. Where I live 12" snow storms are business as usual. In fact we just got 15" from last night's storm. RWD cars are everywhere, including ours.

[turbo200]

You're waaaay over thinking it in a sorta way.

the only thing it's still got going for it is it's distinctive. high end car design is way beyond that point. the sixteen is dated. one more time, the sixteen is less than the new 7, less than the upcoming A8, less than the XF, less than the CLS/S, less than even the LS. it's detail poor completely lacking in detail and refinement, and the surfacing is tired. the only thing it has is it is brash and imposing.....no fine detailing, although the interior still has nice themes, and it is dated as well. old, bygone, however as a $200,000 car in 2004, it would have had some notoriety. by now it would have needed to be redesigned.

[Intrepidation]

A few points:

• The 7 is no better. The 7 series borders on bland with a few bits of odd quirks thrown in (the huge grill that doesn't have any relationship to the headlights...it looks like it was just thrown on there, and the Korean style tail lights).
• The A8, well I haven't seen it so I can't judge.
• The LS is handsome enough but it's not bold, or beautiful.
• The S is handsome besides the Maybach rear end...even after all this time I still don't like it. I wouldn't call it beautiful.
• The XF...I liked it when it first came out but I'm already bored with it, whereas I still find the XK beautiful.

Now, I agree completely that the Sixteen could use an update, in fact with all this talk I may try my hand at a chop. However, I feel you're being overly critical of it, especially when you look at the competition listed. On the other hand, I've always felt the would slot up more towards Phantom/Arnage/Maybach territory. Of those three, 2 are more than dated, "timeless" if you will. The Interior of the Phantom is very blocky and dated looking. The Maybach looks like an bigger, fatter, uglier S-Class.

I don't feel that the Sixteen as horribly dated, I just feel it's showing it's age a bit, and that's only because of Cadillac's recent concepts and the CTS, not because of the competition. I feel that with a front end more like the CTS would cure my on real gripe with the car. The interior? It could be made to look more techy, but I do like the old-world look it has right now. So long as the features and quality are there I'd have no problem with it.

turbo, I'm not sure why we are butting heads lately but I just want to let you know it's nothing personal, we just happen to be disagreeing (while agreeing at the same time in this case) on styling lately.

[SAmadei]

To everyone else talking about how RWD is perfectly doable with snow tires, what's your advice to people who live in areas where snow tires aren't an expedient purchase?

Keep a set in your garage. I've considered stocking at least a set of snow tires for extreme global warming. Unfortunately, I would not want to buy a set for every car. Since most of my cars have 5x4.5 bolt patterns, I considered getting a set of cheap 17 inch rims with fairly low profile used snow tires, so that they would fit on the majority of my cars.

I haven't used snow tires since 1992, when I was buying _anything_ used and cheap to keep trend on the car year round. I used to get super cheap studded tires, which can't be used much around here, and I'd pull the studs out. ;-) You don't appreciate a good set of tires until you had the mutt collection of tire types and sizes on your car... yikes!

[Intrepidation]

Although we get snow every winter here (Baltimore), we get quite a bit less than you guys up there. I see a fairly even mix of RWD and AWD (strangely, most of the Infiniti G/M and Lexus IS/GS have the AWD option). The BMWs, MBs, and Cadillacs are either-or.

To everyone else talking about how RWD is perfectly doable with snow tires, what's your advice to people who live in areas where snow tires aren't an expedient purchase?

Use a set of all season tires that aren't bald.

[turbo200]

A few points:

• The 7 is no better. The 7 series borders on bland with a few bits of odd quirks thrown in (the huge grill that doesn't have any relationship to the headlights...it looks like it was just thrown on there, and the Korean style tail lights).
• The A8, well I haven't seen it so I can't judge.
• The LS is handsome enough but it's not bold, or beautiful.
• The S is handsome besides the Maybach rear end...even after all this time I still don't like it. I wouldn't call it beautiful.
• The XF...I liked it when it first came out but I'm already bored with it, whereas I still find the XK beautiful.

Now, I agree completely that the Sixteen could use an update, in fact with all this talk I may try my hand at a chop. However, I feel you're being overly critical of it, especially when you look at the competition listed. On the other hand, I've always felt the would slot up more towards Phantom/Arnage/Maybach territory. Of those three, 2 are more than dated, "timeless" if you will. The Interior of the Phantom is very blocky and dated looking. The Maybach looks like an bigger, fatter, uglier S-Class.

I don't feel that the Sixteen as horribly dated, I just feel it's showing it's age a bit, and that's only because of Cadillac's recent concepts and the CTS, not because of the competition. I feel that with a front end more like the CTS would cure my on real gripe with the car. The interior? It could be made to look more techy, but I do like the old-world look it has right now. So long as the features and quality are there I'd have no problem with it.

turbo, I'm not sure why we are butting heads lately but I just want to let you know it's nothing personal, we just happen to be disagreeing (while agreeing at the same time in this case) on styling lately.

i'm never one to shy away from admitting i was a litte wrong. that picture posted in this thread is quite misleading. i had to go back and look at the sixteen again after a picture at another site i encountered gave me different impressions. while i still concur the sixteen needs some updates badly and my comparisons to the other cars in its category were not entirely unfair [it may have themes and looks that equal the S though that car is a graceful beauty in its own right, the 7 is better in themes more up to date and better looking in its own stoic highly scuplted fashion, XF has better looking features and of course more up to date themes, but these are all my opinions again]....while this is true, the sixteen definitely laid the groundwork for some of the better CTS and Converj ideas. what works just works sometimes. sixteen has reason to be iconic, but we've also moved on, and so yes the prevailing themes of the bodywork still work and look good, but other ideas like the fascias now look conceptually overdone and overjeweled and lacking in detail. the shape also works really bodaciously on a car this large and would truly make a good $120,000 statement, but for a mainstream luxury car it wouldn't work as well nor would it translate to a smaller car.

[Satty]

Just to revive this argument, I made it through our ice storm and all the snow we had in a RWD boat without sliding off the road to my ultimate demise. In a newer car with ABS, TC, ESP, blah blah blah, you wouldn't be able to tell which wheels were moving the car. Hell, on the ice, the LeSabre felt more stable than the Prius, probably due to the Buick weighing twice as much and having fat rubber all the way around. Basically, I agree with the premise that anyone north of the Mason-Dixon who refuses to buy a car solely because its RWD is a pussy.