It's official - GM to go to 4 brands

[daves87rs]

I think GMC should stay so long as there is a market for them. If Pontiac stays even with 4 or 5 models GMC and Buick should stay too.

Question is-will anyone even know that GMC is gone?

A few of my co workers only know one model....the (used to be) hot selling one.......

[BigPontiac]

Nothing at GM is making money right now. And it still costs something to rebadge a Chevy, run advertising for it, pay GMC management, brand V.P.'s etc. It could be profitable in the future, but I am not convinced that having Chevy trucks alone wouldn't yield and equal or better profit margin for GM as a whole.

Based on the 2008 sales volume alone, GMC would appear to be worth the investment:

Brand Total Sales 2008

Buick - 137,197

Cadillac - 161,159

Chevrolet - 1,801,131

GMC - 376,996

HUMMER - 27,485

Pontiac - 267,348

Saab - 21,368

Saturn - 188,004

Source: Autoblog

[gm4life]

I agree volume is important and the brand is mostly rebadges so yes it is a no brainer to keep them, along with a more focused Pontiac it works for me. B/P/G could really be something in a few years with some great models and varity in their line-up. I am actually excited, so long as GM keeps their word on an updated and focused Pontiac.

Edited January 13, 2009 by gm4life

[Robert Hall]

Based on the 2008 sales volume alone, GMC would appear to be worth the investment:

Brand Total Sales 2008

Buick - 137,197

Cadillac - 161,159

Chevrolet - 1,801,131

GMC - 376,996

HUMMER - 27,485

Pontiac - 267,348

Saab - 21,368

Saturn - 188,004

Source: Autoblog

Yes, considering GMC is all rebadges or platform shared models, the annual investment cost must be pretty tiny these days, relative to sales...I would think it would be profitable.

[Camino LS6]

Take note of Pontiac's numbers as well.

Rank them.

Look closely at Cadillac and Buick.

And think it over carefully.

[cire]

Sounds like they are keeping Pontiac to slowly phase it out by not updating and discontinuing models.

I agree. The sad truth is that this announcement signifies a temporary reprieve instead of a promise of longevity. GM is keeping the brand and the products listed in the article alive until Buick can be properly expanded. Once Buick starts to expand, the remaining Pontiac products will be phased out and the brand will either be discontinued (highly likely) or relegated to a position that supports Buick (less likely). I agree that it's a sad and unnecessary end to the brand, but I think it is inevitable at this point.

GMC's future still has me baffled. Buick is more than capable of covering the premium crossover market on its own. I can see keeping GMC around to either sell premium versions of the corporation's trucks and traditional SUVs or selling car based SUTs (or maybe both), but it seems they would want to assign the midmarket premium crossovers to Buick. I just don't quite understand how GMC qualifies as a "core" brand.

[BigPontiac]

I wonder if there is an opportunity in this whole situation for Pontiac. For example, could the interior from the Saturn Sky be transplanted into the Solstice as a cheap MCE? Could the G5 pickup the engine/suspension from the Cobalt SS and live on a while longer once the Cuze comes to the USA and the Cobalt is put out to pasture? Freshens the product a little with minimal investment...

[regfootball]

Really GM is reducing to 3 brands... GMC is not at all unique. I don't see why GM can't keep two models for Pontiac aimed squarely at the youth market. As reg pointed out, GM really has no brand that is youth oreinted besides Pontiac now that Saturn is dead...

yup. its a huge mistake.

chevy needs to come through in this scenario, but i question if it ever will.

[gm4life]

I wonder if there is an opportunity in this whole situation for Pontiac. For example, could the interior from the Saturn Sky be transplanted into the Solstice as a cheap MCE? Could the G5 pickup the engine/suspension from the Cobalt SS and live on a while longer once the Cuze comes to the USA and the Cobalt is put out to pasture? Freshens the product a little with minimal investment...

I could see something like this happening as well. This is what I would be will end up happening.

[hyperv6]

Take note of Pontiac's numbers as well.

Rank them.

Look closely at Cadillac and Buick.

And think it over carefully.

It is not how many units sold as it is how much profit per car is made. Volume means noithing if it does not bring in the dollars. Avis pays little for the G6.

Caddy makes a profit and with the Buick we will get that are shared in China and Europe they should also make a tidy profit.

GM is in the buisness to build cars and make a profit not just building cars.

[NeonLX]

Besides the profits--GMC also serves the same purpose to BPG franchises that the G3 and G5 do--gives them models to compete with Chevy.

Wish they'd compete with Toyota, Honda et. al. rather than inter-divisionally amongst other GM divisions.

I hate to see them kill the G6; that car appears to sell VERY well around here.

[Drew Dowdell]

Move a restyled Aura over to Pontiac.

[cire]

Move a restyled Aura over to Pontiac.

I agree. I would replace the G6 sedan with the Aura (G7 maybe?). The G6 coupe and convertible would continue in Pontiac's lineup since no midsize FWD coupe or convertible is available from any other GM division.

I would also give the Sky a facelift and reassign it to Buick (Reatta maybe?). Pontiac would only sell the Solstice coupe (the roadster would be discontinued) while Buick would sell the Reatta roadster. Pontiac might be better off than Buick on this one since Pontiac would be selling a version of Kappa that has a slight edge in practicality.

The Vue (with some modifications) would become the Buick Rendezvous or a GMC product. My preference would be to give it to Buick.

The Outlook would simply disappear (it shouldn't have existed in the first place).

Pipe Dream: Import the current Astra OPC 3-door as a Pontiac (G4 GXP maybe?). I know it won't happen, but it would be sweet.

[Robert Hall]

I agree. I would replace the G6 sedan with the Aura (G7 maybe?). The G6 coupe and convertible would continue in Pontiac's lineup since no midsize FWD coupe or convertible is available from any other GM division.

Yes, the coupe and convertible are nice differentiators for Pontiac, compared to the Malibu, Aura, and '10 LaCrosse.

The Vue (with some modifications) would become the Buick Rendezvous or a GMC product. My preference would be to give it to Buick.

Well, GMC is getting the Terrain to replace the Torrent..not sure if BPG would need two midsize CUVs...

[BuddyP]

Move a restyled Aura over to Pontiac.

The sole reason we went with an Aura over a G6 was due to better interior and exterior styling of the Aura.

Edited January 13, 2009 by BuddyP

[Camino LS6]

It is not how many units sold as it is how much profit per car is made. Volume means noithing if it does not bring in the dollars. Avis pays little for the G6.

Caddy makes a profit and with the Buick we will get that are shared in China and Europe they should also make a tidy profit.

GM is in the buisness to build cars and make a profit not just building cars.

I'd like to see those numbers.

The profitability of buick is certainly questionable, if not Caddy.

Without those numbers, all internet talk is pure assumption.

It has the odor of politics and wishful thinking about it, this plan of GM's

[GMTruckGuy74]

Take note of Pontiac's numbers as well.

Rank them.

Look closely at Cadillac and Buick.

And think it over carefully.

Brand Total Sales 2008

#1 - Chevrolet - 1,801,131

#2 - GMC - 376,996

#3 - Pontiac - 267,348

#4 - Saturn - 188,004

#5 - Cadillac - 161,159

#6 - Buick - 137,197

#7 - HUMMER - 27,485

#8 - Saab - 21,368 ( )

Some food for thought... I'm impressed with Buick's sales #s when compared to Saturn. Buick only has three models which yes, sold 51,000 units less than Saturn, but Saturn has five models (two more than Buick) to cover more of the market. And consider that Buick's lineup is not for the "younger buyer", whereas Saturn's is, and look at how much Buick sold (I have friends in their young to mid 30's that bought Enclaves and Acadias and never once looked at the OUTLOOK).

For those of you saying to cut GMC, are you willing to give up 300+k worth of sales? I think GM and GM-enthusiasts learned that not all of those sales will go to another GM brand (i.e. Chevrolet, and Saturn and Buick in the case of the Lambdas). And Pontiac at #3 with 260k sales - my wife wouldn't look at the Malibu (Chevrolet) and didn't want an AURA (Saturn), but fell in love with the G6. Don't think that Pontiac has lost all of their flare in the marketplace yet.

It's true that the company we love and cherish has to make decisions that we all aren't going to agree with or like. I'd personally hate to see GMC and Pontiac go, and am one of the few here that like Saturns and to a point will be saddened by their disappearance, but I'd rather see GM survive. Like Camino has said time and time again, politics is at play here more than the company's and economy's best interest and for that reason alone I am not thrilled with GM lately.

[Robert Hall]

Brand Total Sales 2008

#1 - Chevrolet - 1,801,131

#2 - GMC - 376,996

#3 - Pontiac - 267,348

#4 - Saturn - 188,004

#5 - Cadillac - 161,159

#6 - Buick - 137,197

#7 - HUMMER - 27,485

#8 - Saab - 21,368 ( )

Some food for thought... I'm impressed with Buick's sales #s when compared to Saturn. Buick only has three models which yes, sold 51,000 units less than Saturn, but Saturn has five models (two more than Buick) to cover more of the market. And consider that Buick's lineup is not for the "younger buyer", whereas Saturn's is, and look at how much Buick sold (I have friends in their young to mid 30's that bought Enclaves and Acadias and never once looked at the OUTLOOK).

For those of you saying to cut GMC, are you willing to give up 300+k worth of sales? I think GM and GM-enthusiasts learned that not all of those sales will go to another GM brand (i.e. Chevrolet, and Saturn and Buick in the case of the Lambdas). And Pontiac at #3 with 260k sales - my wife wouldn't look at the Malibu (Chevrolet) and didn't want an AURA (Saturn), but fell in love with the G6. Don't think that Pontiac has lost all of their flare in the marketplace yet.

It's true that the company we love and cherish has to make decisions that we all aren't going to agree with or like. I'd personally hate to see GMC and Pontiac go, and am one of the few here that like Saturns and to a point will be saddened by their disappearance, but I'd rather see GM survive. Like Camino has said time and time again, politics is at play here more than the company's and economy's best interest and for that reason alone I am not thrilled with GM lately.

Yes, it has to be internal politics... how can Pontiac be #3 in volume and not be considered a 'core' brand? And they have more than twice as many models than Buick. Truly baffling.

[Camino LS6]

As I said, without seeing the real numbers...

[PurdueGuy]

What's sad is that Saturn used to sell twice that many cars with one model (granted, 3 body styles).

[gm4life]

Brand Total Sales 2008

#1 - Chevrolet - 1,801,131

#2 - GMC - 376,996

#3 - Pontiac - 267,348

#4 - Saturn - 188,004

#5 - Cadillac - 161,159

#6 - Buick - 137,197

#7 - HUMMER - 27,485

#8 - Saab - 21,368 ( )

Some food for thought... I'm impressed with Buick's sales #s when compared to Saturn. Buick only has three models which yes, sold 51,000 units less than Saturn, but Saturn has five models (two more than Buick) to cover more of the market. And consider that Buick's lineup is not for the "younger buyer", whereas Saturn's is, and look at how much Buick sold (I have friends in their young to mid 30's that bought Enclaves and Acadias and never once looked at the OUTLOOK).

For those of you saying to cut GMC, are you willing to give up 300+k worth of sales? I think GM and GM-enthusiasts learned that not all of those sales will go to another GM brand (i.e. Chevrolet, and Saturn and Buick in the case of the Lambdas). And Pontiac at #3 with 260k sales - my wife wouldn't look at the Malibu (Chevrolet) and didn't want an AURA (Saturn), but fell in love with the G6. Don't think that Pontiac has lost all of their flare in the marketplace yet.

It's true that the company we love and cherish has to make decisions that we all aren't going to agree with or like. I'd personally hate to see GMC and Pontiac go, and am one of the few here that like Saturns and to a point will be saddened by their disappearance, but I'd rather see GM survive. Like Camino has said time and time again, politics is at play here more than the company's and economy's best interest and for that reason alone I am not thrilled with GM lately.

Proof that BPG will still work fine. Honestly Saturn, Saab and Hummer all do need to go. Then GM is down to what I consider core or traditional brands. I agree GMTruckguy, although I would never buy a GMC over a Chevrolet except in the case of the All Terrain, but I see a market for the Sierra and a more "premium" pick-up buyer. The rest can be killed sorry.

Edited January 13, 2009 by gm4life

[SAmadei]

Proof that BPG will still work fine. Honestly Saturn, Saab and Hummer all do need to go. Then GM is down to what I consider core or traditional brands. I agree GMTruckguy, although I would never buy a GMC over a Chevrolet except in the case of the All Terrain, but I see a market for the Sierra and a more "premium" pick-up buyer. The rest can be killed sorry.

Thats why I prefer to look at sales like this...

Brand Total Sales 2008

#1 - Chevrolet - 1,801,131

#2 - BPG - 781,541

#3 - Saturn - 188,004

#4 - Cadillac - 161,159

#5 - HUMMER - 27,485

#6 - Saab - 21,368

Also, the fact that GMC sells 367K of disguised Chevy trucks tells me that badge engineering still works to enough of a degree to continue doing it. After all, much of the public is so clueless that they think Oldsmobiles are still made, and so think Silverados and Sierras are totally different trucks.

[Camino LS6]

That , of course, really is the right way to look at the numbers.

BPG is really a single entity now.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If we're going to consolidate to channels, we need to consolidate them all the way GM sees it.

1) Chevrolet: 1,801,131

2) Buick/Pontiac/GMC: 781,541

3) Cadillac/Hummer/Saab: 210, 012

4) Saturn: 188,004

I don't really know why GM is scaling back Pontiac. Unless most of it is fleet, or they can't make adequate return on investment, or they can't fund 2 volume divisions... Or maybe they just WANT to make Pontiac what it is supposed to be.

I have a feeling that it has to do with R.O.I. and GM's increasingly GLOBAL stance... Pontiac isn't global and Pontiac has the worst image of any GM division in america. I think those two things speak volumes.

I certainly hope GM's management is smart enough to use Chevy and Buick to capture some of those lost sales.

Edited January 14, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[gm4life]

They won't capture sales from people like me if GM gets rid of Pontiac all together.

[gm4life]

That , of course, really is the right way to look at the numbers.

BPG is really a single entity now.

That is the way it should be.

[smk4565]

Based on the 2008 sales volume alone, GMC would appear to be worth the investment:

Brand Total Sales 2008

Buick - 137,197

Cadillac - 161,159

Chevrolet - 1,801,131

GMC - 376,996

HUMMER - 27,485

Pontiac - 267,348

Saab - 21,368

Saturn - 188,004

Source: Autoblog

Sales volume doesn't equal profit.

[Satty]

I don't really know why GM is scaling back Pontiac. Unless most of it is fleet, or they can't make adequate return on investment, or they can't fund 2 volume divisions... Or maybe they just WANT to make Pontiac what it is supposed to be.

DING DING DING!

G5 30.5% fleet

Vibe 21.7% fleet

G6 44.8% fleet

G8 4.4% fleet

Grand Prix 64.6% fleet

Solstice 8.2% fleet

Torrent 23.5% fleet

[Satty]

Sales volume doesn't equal profit.

GM doesn't have to put any money into GMC, so GMC is pretty much pure profit.

[smk4565]

Move a restyled Aura over to Pontiac.

Buick is getting the Regal which is a restyled Aura, so that is already covered. Don't need 2 of the same car at the same dealership. If Pontiac stays it should be Solstice and G8, maybe the Astra. But they won't make money with 3 cars so I doubt they stay for long.

[Drew Dowdell]

Buick is getting the Regal which is a restyled Aura, so that is already covered. Don't need 2 of the same car at the same dealership. If Pontiac stays it should be Solstice and G8, maybe the Astra. But they won't make money with 3 cars so I doubt they stay for long.

Regal is a restyled Insignia and would likely be too soft for Pontiac.

Freshen the Aura's interior, restyle it into a Pontiac, sport up the suspension, regular ecotec base engine, turbo ecotec GT version, Turbo 2.8 <from the SRX> for a GXP version.

[smk4565]

Regal is a restyled Insignia and would likely be too soft for Pontiac.

Freshen the Aura's interior, restyle it into a Pontiac, sport up the suspension, regular ecotec base engine, turbo ecotec GT version, Turbo 2.8 <from the SRX> for a GXP version.

But do they need 2 cars of identical size with similar engines , transmissions and acceleration with only suspension tuning and some sheet metal being different, especially when they have the Malibu also. They can do a sport model of the Malibu to get younger buyers. The goal should be 400,000 Malibus a year, not 180k or whatever they sold this year.

The 2.8 turbo isn't even efficient, in the 9-3 which is a little car it is rated at 15/24 mpg, there are V8s that get better.

Edited January 14, 2009 by smk4565

[HarleyEarl]

Maybe US Pontiacs will simply unify with Canada and be Chevrolet rebadges. It stinks.

Heyyy......we get the same Pontiacs here as you do.

[Robert Hall]

Heyyy......we get the same Pontiacs here as you do.

Plus, you had the G3 before we did, and your G5 is available in a 4dr!

[Satty]

Plus, you had the G3 before we did, and your G5 is available in a 4dr!

EXCITEMENT!!!!!

[HarleyEarl]

I'm sure not surprised about Saturn being dropped. It was a long slow death and one could see it coming. Long ago, Saturn ceased being Saturn. I'm not sure what it is today. There's no point to it. Originally there was.

And I just don't understand the need for GMC. That's a mystery to me. Two trucklines in today's world?

[wildcat]

I'm sure not surprised about Saturn being dropped.

Has this been confirmed? Various GM officials have sent some mixed messages lately. Of course, in this forum, PCS predicted that Saturn would become part of the B-P-G channel (replacing Pontiac). Is that not still a possibility, if not the likely scenario?

[ToniCipriani]

Has this been confirmed? Various GM officials have sent some mixed messages lately. Of course, in this forum, PCS predicted that Saturn would become part of the B-P-G channel (replacing Pontiac). Is that not still a possibility, if not the likely scenario?

That's.... just wrong.

[Northstar]

Has this been confirmed? Various GM officials have sent some mixed messages lately. Of course, in this forum, PCS predicted that Saturn would become part of the B-P-G channel (replacing Pontiac). Is that not still a possibility, if not the likely scenario?

I don't see the point of that... just give Saturn's vehicles to Buick... Vue becomes new Rendezvous, what was the NG Aura is becoming the Regal, perhaps the NG Astra could be a Buick (or Pontiac?).

[wildcat]

That's.... just wrong.

Toni: I don't understand what you mean, please. Wrong to your way of thinking or wrong factually based on an official GM statement?

[wildcat]

just give Saturn's vehicles to Buick... Vue becomes new Rendezvous, what was the NG Aura is becoming the Regal, perhaps the NG Astra could be a Buick (or Pontiac?).

Northstar: While I appreciate your input and that seems reasonable, I think we'd all agree that GM has done (or continues to do) things that don't necessarily make sense. If Saturn is "finished," why doesn't Mark LaNeve appear to know or acknowledge that? Is it all a game because of lawsuits, buyouts, etc.? Yet I think it was no less than Fritz Henderson himself who said, basically flat-out, Saturn just hasn't worked in the marketplace. Couldn't Saturn move into the B-P-G channel and be given only the "lower" end of rebadged Opels? You should know me well enough by now that I'd be perfectly fine if Buick got all the Opels (including the Agila LOL - seriously), so I'm not pushing the point for that reason. I'm just trying to follow this - has something precluded what PCS predicted? I wish we could have his response but, to my knowledge, he hasn't been around lately.

Edited January 14, 2009 by wildcat

[Drew Dowdell]

But do they need 2 cars of identical size with similar engines , transmissions and acceleration with only suspension tuning and some sheet metal being different, especially when they have the Malibu also. They can do a sport model of the Malibu to get younger buyers. The goal should be 400,000 Malibus a year, not 180k or whatever they sold this year.

The 2.8 turbo isn't even efficient, in the 9-3 which is a little car it is rated at 15/24 mpg, there are V8s that get better.

GM would already be losing the Aura. I'm not talking just minor suspension upgrade.... I'm talking Cobalt SS around the Nurburgring style upgrades. Any why not? GM is not going to beat Toyota by being Toyota. Just because Toyota makes the "Sport" model of the Camry doesn't mean it's sporty.

I was referring to the 2.8T that will be in the SRX. It gets direct injection I believe. That should help the economy some... but who, buying a Pontiac anything GXP, is thinking about fuel efficiency first?

[Drew Dowdell]

Heyyy......we get the same Pontiacs here as you do.

Plus a couple extra. Firefly, G3, Tempest... whatever that Tracker rebadge was.....

[balthazar]

>>"And I just don't understand the need for GMC. That's a mystery to me. Two trucklines in today's world?"<<

Think of it as 1 truck line with 2 greatly varied trims.

Don't you think there are those that would ONLY buy a Camaro SS,

and likewise only those that would buy a base model V-6 ??

Same thing.

Edited January 14, 2009 by balthazar

[gm4life]

I do belief ultimately you will see Pontiac stay even if we have a "dark period" for a while. Once GM fixes up its other problems and will see them come into BPG showroom and file in around Buick's nicely with products like the G8 and Vibe etc. Trust me I am being positive and could be wrong. I just keep wonding if GM would have put that money into Pontiac instead of Saturn where would we be? Alot better off.

Edited January 14, 2009 by gm4life

[BuddyP]

>>"And I just don't understand the need for GMC. That's a mystery to me. Two trucklines in today's world?"<<

Think of it as 1 truck line with 2 greatly varied trims.

Don't you think there are those that would ONLY buy a Camaro SS,

and likewise only those that would buy a base model V-6 ??

Same thing.

Well for Chevy you have WT, LT, LT1. LT2, LTZ... what more do you need?

[Robert Hall]

>>"And I just don't understand the need for GMC. That's a mystery to me. Two trucklines in today's world?"<<

Think of it as 1 truck line with 2 greatly varied trims.

Don't you think there are those that would ONLY buy a Camaro SS,

and likewise only those that would buy a base model V-6 ??

Same thing.

Well, the trims are only varied (and not really 'greatly') within the Sierra and Yukon lines vs their Chevy equivalents. The Canyon, Savana and medium duty truck are just badge-engineered. The Arcadia is about the only unique model GMC has.

Edited January 14, 2009 by moltar

[gm4life]

Well, the trims are only varied (and not really 'greatly') within the Sierra and Yukon lines vs their Chevy equivalents. The Canyon, Savana and medium duty truck are just badge-engineered. The Arcadia is about the only unique model GMC has.

It was the only unique vehicle GMC had... At least Pontiac has the Vibe, G8 and Solstice once Saturn goes away. :AH-HA_wink:

[ZL-1]

EXCITEMENT!!!!!

:rotflmao:

[Northstar]

Northstar: While I appreciate your input and that seems reasonable, I think we'd all agree that GM has done (or continues to do) things that don't necessarily make sense. If Saturn is "finished," why doesn't Mark LaNeve appear to know or acknowledge that? Is it all a game because of lawsuits, buyouts, etc.? Yet I think it was no less than Fritz Henderson himself who said, basically flat-out, Saturn just hasn't worked in the marketplace. Couldn't Saturn move into the B-P-G channel and be given only the "lower" end of rebadged Opels? You should know me well enough by now that I'd be perfectly fine if Buick got all the Opels (including the Agila LOL - seriously), so I'm not pushing the point for that reason. I'm just trying to follow this - has something precluded what PCS predicted? I wish we could have his response but, to my knowledge, he hasn't been around lately.

Well, I don't know what is going to happen, but I think it makes more sense to just get rid of Saturn. Perhaps Pontiac could get the Corsa and Astra if they stay around. The OPC versions would make them small, sporty, fun-to-drive cars.