So, I still don't get it...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM May Shrink Pontiac Lineup to One Model From Six (Update1)

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By Greg Bensinger

Dec. 18 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. peddled Pontiacs for years with the slogan “We Build Excitement.” To stay afloat, it’s producing fewer thrills -- and models.

The company may shrink the Pontiac division to a single model from six following a drop in sales every year since 1999. “It might be just one model,” Mark LaNeve, GM’s North American sales chief, said in an interview.

GM joins Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Co. in trimming brands as U.S. sales sag amid the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression. GM has said it will run out of cash by the end of the month and is seeking financial aid from the government to avoid a collapse.

While GM told Congress on Dec. 2 that it would shrink the number of models it sells, including at Pontiac, it hasn’t said previously that it might jettison all but one Pontiac brand.

Paring Pontiac to a lone model would deprive GM of its third highest-selling brand after Chevrolet and GMC, and almost 2.2 points of U.S. market share accounted for by Pontiac’s sales of 358,022 vehicles in 2007. GM’s market share has dwindled to 22.1 percent from a peak of 51.1 percent in 1962.

Sales of GM vehicles are down 22 percent through November of this year from the year-earlier period, including a 23 percent plunge for Pontiac to 250,902 units. Only Pontiac’s redesigned Vibe small car has increased sales this year.

Gaining by Losing

Jettisoning the Pontiac brands would help GM by cutting jobs and production costs, trimming advertising and eliminating lower-margin vehicles, said Efraim Levy, an equity analyst at Standard & Poor’s in New York.

“GM can get more bang for their buck,” said Levy, who rates the Detroit-based automaker as “sell.” GM shares have fallen 82 percent this year through yesterday. They lost 14 cents, or 3.2 percent, to $4.23 at 10:50 a.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading.

The company, which scrapped the Oldsmobile line in 2000, said in its request to Congress for help that shrinking brands would result in 20,000 to 30,000 fewer U.S. hourly and salaried workers.

GM already plans to eliminate its Pontiac Torrent sport- utility vehicle, said Debbie Frakes, a spokeswoman. GM gave no estimate of cost savings or worker reductions at Pontiac.

The one remaining Pontiac would be a car to be sold alongside Buicks and GMCs, on a scale similar to its Corvette available in Chevrolet showrooms, LaNeve said. GM sold 33,685 Corvettes last year.

‘Lost Its Way’

While LaNeve wouldn’t name the remaining Pontiac, he described it as “a very high-appeal, performance-oriented model as opposed to a mainstream high-volume model.” It would be less expensive than the Corvette, which starts at about $50,000, LaNeve said.

That most likely means the Pontiac G8 sedan, introduced this year in the U.S., said John Wolkonowicz, an analyst with IHS Global Insight in Lexington, Massachusetts. He said Pontiac may drop the G5, G6, Solstice and Vibe cars and the soon-to-be- released G3 compact.

The cutbacks would mark the near-demise of a once iconic brand, he said.

“In its heyday, Pontiac was a brand everyone wanted to own and no one would be embarrassed to drive,” Wolkonowicz said. “Pontiac simply lost that excitement; it totally lost its way.”

First sold in 1926, Pontiac became known as a higher- quality alternative to Chevrolet. The unit developed a reputation for high-performance autos such as the now-defunct Bonneville sedan, eventually rising to third in U.S. sales behind Chevrolet and Ford’s namesake brand.

Muscle-Car Era

Pontiac’s 1964 GTO sports car ushered in an era of so- called muscle cars such as the Dodge Challenger and Chevrolet Camaro. “Pontiac at that time was the golden boy of the auto industry,” Wolkonowicz said.

The division’s most popular model was the Grand Prix, with sales of 288,000 in 1977, GM said. Pontiac sales peaked in the U.S. at 896,980 in 1978, GM’s best year, according to trade publication Automotive News. By last year, they had fallen 60 percent from that record. Today, GM is trying to incorporate the brand alongside Buick and GMC models in dealer showrooms.

GM also is rethinking the future of its Saturn unit and has put Saab and Hummer on the sales block. Ford said on Dec. 1 it will sell Volvo, while Chrysler is closing a Newark, Delaware, plant this year where it makes the Dodge Durango and Chrysler Aspen sport-utility vehicles.

GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz, who in 2005 described Pontiac as a “damaged brand,” has said the division hit a low point with its Aztek crossover SUV that debuted in 2001. Time magazine listed the Aztek among the worst 50 cars of all time in 2007, citing a “deformed and scary” appearance.

Dealers Go Too

LaNeve said GM will try to eliminate 1,700 of its 6,400 U.S. dealerships in five years, in part by normal turnover and combining showrooms for Buick, Pontiac and GMC, known internally as BPG. GM expects to lose about 400 dealerships after selling the Saab and Hummer franchises, he said.

Reducing dealers helps cut competition, boosting sales at remaining outlets. The changes may add more desirable customers, said Charles Martin, who owns Classic Buick-Pontiac-GMC in Carrollton, Texas.

“This could be a good thing for the BPG channel, by inviting younger buyers,” he said.

*** As much as I support a more focused Pontiac, WHY is GM choosing this path? I don't get it... Do they think that Buick and Chevrolet are going to pick up the sales?!?!

Seriously... Someone enlighten me.

[regfootball]

why would i want a buick or chevy? i don't. they are dull cheap old person rides.

[network engineer]

*** As much as I support a more focused Pontiac, WHY is GM choosing this path? I don't get it... Do they think that Buick and Chevrolet are going to pick up the sales?!?!

Seriously... Someone enlighten me.

Because they've mismanaged the brand so badly that it's an embarrassment to be seen in many of it's badge job cars. Though that's easy to fix, with cars like the G8(Of course it doesn't sell well, because it's not advertised on TV and most people assume it's just another FWD Grand Prix. Anyway, with what money is GM supposed to fix it? They've squandered $78 Billion in the last four years. They have no choice but to drop the weakest brands so the strongest brands can survive. It's like the slowest member of the pack getting picked off by the predators.

GM doesn't want to do this to any of their brands. On the other hand GM doesn't want ALL of their brands to go out of business either.

[network engineer]

*** As much as I support a more focused Pontiac, WHY is GM choosing this path? I don't get it... Do they think that Buick and Chevrolet are going to pick up the sales?!?!

Seriously... Someone enlighten me.

Because they've mismanaged the brand so badly that it's an embarrassment to be seen in many of it's badge job cars. Though that's easy to fix, with cars like the G8(Of course it doesn't sell well, because it's not advertised on TV and most people assume it's just another FWD Grand Prix. Anyway, with what money is GM supposed to fix it? They've squandered $78 Billion in the last four years. They have no choice but to drop the weakest brands so the strongest brands can survive. It's like the slowest member of the pack getting picked off by the predators.

GM doesn't want to do this to any of their brands. On the other hand GM doesn't want ALL of their brands to go out of business either.

[ocnblu]

GM: "Yes, Pontiac is our second-best selling car brand in the US, even with what some call "rebadges", but instead of being creative like we were with the '58 Bonneville which FOCUSED the Pontiac brand and allowed it to reach incredible heights of desirability, we've decided to simply give away our Pontiac customers to anyone who will take them. After all, who needs variety? Who needs market share? Who needs customers? We don't need no stinking customers! Customers, BE GONE!"

[hyperv6]

Comes down to simple economics.

Buick is the best selling car in the worlds largest growing market and Chevy is GM's largest selling brand and is now being sold world wide as the models are now becoming world models.

Pontiac on the other hand is sold in Canada. Unless you want to count Holdens down under is is a limited brand that is not established anywhere else.

As for remaking the brand it will only add cost. GM could afford to be creative in 1956 when they removed the chrome. But to day GM can not afford to spend money on a brand that is no sure thing to return with out a lot of help and funds.

We have to look at GM today as a global company and not a American company.

Market share is nothing if you selling G8's with little to no marketing for $23.995. Profit is what is more important not market share. If your not making a profit why bother making cars?

GM can only afford to market only so many cars and what get left off sits on dealer lots. It is a competitive market and you need to push product. GM casn rely on people with good memories of the 60's anymore as they are dying off. THey need to reach non traditional buyers as conquest sales are the way out of this mess.

GM needed to cut models and Pontiac is the least important on the world stage.

Now keeping one model may be to prevent them from paying out to the dealers if they were to close Pontiac. It may be to keep the name alive to where they can return it at a later date.

There is a lot we don't know yet.

As in what we don't know. Too many assume we will keep the G8 as the one model? We might but it also could just as easy be the Vibe as it is not made by GM and would be very cheap to keep and would meet the new CAFE rules. It also is new and is selling well. To me it is not a Pontiac but it is the cheapest thing to keep and one day could be spun into a Mini Cooper like car on a Delta 2 or something like that.

Lets see how GM does. We may not be happy with all that is going on now but as long as the name is alive it can return.

The bottom line economically something had to give and Pontiac on a world market was the weakest link.

[gmcbob]

GM has made so many bad marketing decisions over the past few years it's truly just unreal. Oh well. I'm actually getting tired of thinking about how screwed up they are.

At least if they do dwindle Pontiac down to one model, it sounds like it would be the G8. IMO, if they must do this with Pontiac, the entire brand should basically be all of the variations available of the Zeta car; a G8 Sedan, the G8 Sport Truck and if things started getting a little better for GM, a G8 Coupe.

Edited December 21, 2008 by gmcbob

[Oracle of Delphi]

Pontiac on the other hand is sold in Canada.

Actually Pontiac is sold in the USA, Canada, and Mexico. Another thing I think turned off traditional Pontiac buyers were the G names. Pontiac cut it's own throat when they gave up historic names like Bonneville, Grand Prix, Grand Am, etc. for G8, G6, G5. How foolish for Lutz to change to the generic G names that meant nothing and still stand for nothing, and jettison the great names of past Pontiac models. Everyone knew what you drove when you said Bonneville, Grand Prix, and Grand Am. The public was left scratching their heads when you said I drive a G6 or a G5, and I actually think that's part of the problem with poor sales of the G8, people don't like those names. Did GM learn nothing from the doomed name change from Sunbird to J2000 back to Sunbird again, during the hiatus of the Sunbird name during the 1981 & 1982 model years?

I blame Lutz for Pontiac's demise. Part of the reason he was hired was to fix Pontiac, Pontiac was supposed to be his brand, his baby, the one brand he connected with the most. Well he fixed it alright, 1st he gave us a warmed up leftover of the Holden Monaro and called it the GTO, which he rushed to market. GTO traditionalist turned their collective nose up at that car, there went that loyal group, out the door. Then he got rid of the Bonneville, bye bye Bonneville fans. Then the Grand Prix was next on his hit list, we'll miss you loyal Grand Prix buyers. Now we have the G8 that was supposed to pick up those loyal Bonneville and Grand Prix buyers, yet the G8 flounders on dealer lots much like it's GTO sibling did between 2004 - 2006. When you don't learn from your past mistakes, you repeat them. Just like when Lutz brought out the Solstice ragtop in the dead of winter, another bonehead move. By the way, speaking of the Kappa cars, they are only building 50 cars a day, looks like another failure on the way under Lutz' watch. Remember now, Pontiac was his baby, I'd hate to see what he would have done to Pontiac had he hated it, and why was the Vibe given to Pontiac and not Chevy to replace the Chevy Prizm again?

I use to love Pontiac, but in its place all that is left is Brand G, how fitting.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Actually Pontiac is sold in the USA, Canada, and Mexico. Another thing I think turned off traditional Pontiac buyers were the G names. Pontiac cut it's own throat when they gave up historic names like Bonneville, Grand Prix, Grand Am, etc. for G8, G6, G5. How foolish for Lutz to change to the generic G names that meant nothing and still stand for nothing, and jettison the great names of past Pontiac models. Everyone knew what you drove when you said Bonneville, Grand Prix, and Grand Am. The public was left scratching their heads when you said I drive a G6 or a G5, and I actually think that's part of the problem with poor sales of the G8, people don't like those names. Did GM learn nothing from the doomed name change from Sunbird to J2000 back to Sunbird again, during the hiatus of the Sunbird name during the 1981 & 1982 model years?

I agree... I was talking to a friend the other day and he said; "Isn't Pontiac basically out of business now? They used to make the Grand Am but now they don't. So I told him they made the G6 instead. He said; "What's that?" And this guy i a sports fanatic, so he is definitely part of Pontiac's supposedly 'marketed to' crowd.

I blame Lutz for Pontiac's demise. Part of the reason he was hired was to fix Pontiac, Pontiac was supposed to be his brand, his baby, the one brand he connected with the most. Well he fixed it alright, 1st he gave us a warmed up leftover of the Holden Monaro and called it the GTO, which he rushed to market. GTO traditionalist turned their collective nose up at that car, there went that loyal group, out the door. Then he got rid of the Bonneville, bye bye Bonneville fans. Then the Grand Prix was next on his hit list, we'll miss you loyal Grand Prix buyers. Now we have the G8 that was supposed to pick up those loyal Bonneville and Grand Prix buyers, yet the G8 flounders on dealer lots much like it's GTO sibling did between 2004 - 2006. When you don't learn from your past mistakes, you repeat them. Just like when Lutz brought out the Solstice ragtop in the dead of winter, another bonehead move.

I hate to say it... But I can see your point and I do somewhat agree.

But, I think the problem was that Lutz was not given the resources to adequately save Pontiac. It's almost like the GM planners wanted to redefine all of GM's other brands and then give the $5 that is left to Pontiac and say "fix yourself"

I think the company (and it's products) we're majorly effed up. Lutz TRIED to do what he could, but it was too late. He essentially did what he knew to do (which was a flawed method anyway, looking back at the demise of Plymouth and Chrysler as a whole) he established a (compromised) halo; the Solstice and then used his 'jellybean, tumblehome, mundane' styling tastes to 're-touch' the rest of the line up. Like it or not (and the media hated it) Pontiac was known for styling that didn't put you to sleep. Lutz changed that for the worst. But then again, it's not like he had a lot to work with in the first place. The Monaro was greenlighted (rushed) because of the FEAR that the public/media would destroy Pontiac, the performance division, for not having a V8 car. And, of course, the fickle Pontiac audience balked. The G6 was locked in before Lutz arrived. The G5, Torrent and G3 were just GM's ignorance and caving to the dealers.

By the way, speaking of the Kappa cars, they are only building 50 cars a day, looks like another failure on the way under Lutz' watch.

Given the market, I would completely expect an impractical, unneeded car to be selling at this pace. The Solstice is a toy and people aren't buying toys right now.

Remember now, Pontiac was his baby, I'd hate to see what he would have done to Pontiac had he hated it, and why was the Vibe given to Pontiac and not Chevy to replace the Chevy Prizm again?

Laziness? Because Pontiac needed an entry level product? (Most likely since that was the plan until the dealers hen pecked GM into offering the G5)

I use to love Pontiac, but in its place all that is left is Brand G, how fitting.

What it boils down to is this IMO. And I hate to say it, but it's true... ANY GM division that is expected to battle the 'premium' (not luxury) imports falls flat on it's face and the fact that GM couldn't manage it's way out of a good BM doesn't help. Oldsmobile had this mission and failed. Pontiac shared this mission with Saturn, yet both have apparently failed.

THAT is not a good thing, because that's a HUGE portion of the market that GM is missing out on. And, that is not a ood thing for Buick IMO, because it is now the brand that it expected to get the job done. And unless GM gets it's sh*t together, Buick (with it's image and limited reach) will fail miserably. The only good thing about it is that Buick, unlike Saturn, Pontiac and Olds, doesn't hav to share it's resources with another 'premium' (READ: not luxury) division in the GM empire.

[Northstar]

I'd rather Pontiac have an Alpha-based sedan and coupe as their one model than have 4 models if the other 3 are the G5, G3, and G6; it's not necessarily a bad thing.

[smk4565]

Pontiac is going to be phased out eventually. They'll drop to G8 and Solstice while they close down Hummer, Saab, Saturn. Then around 2012 I suspect Pontiac will go also. They just can't close every brand at once. GM will be better for it also.

[Daryl Z71]

I'll be there to help GM out when I purchase a new Camaro! I like the Pontiac brand alot. My girlfriend has a 2002 Grand Prix. It is a very nice car in my opinion and I think the same about alot of the other Pontiac cars. Its sad it came to this but if GM thinks they have to do this to stay alive then Im with them. Hopefully it doesn't bite them in the ass!

[daves87rs]

Pontiac is going to be phased out eventually. They'll drop to G8 and Solstice while they close down Hummer, Saab, Saturn. Then around 2012 I suspect Pontiac will go also. They just can't close every brand at once. GM will be better for it also.

When you put it that way, you could just about phase out GM.

And Actually, when you do phase out brands ( as you can no longer fool and internet "now" based public), you are just slowing your own death.

All I can say is that I wish Obama luck.. we are in for spme rough times ahead....

[A Horse With No Name]

GM: "Yes, Pontiac is our second-best selling car brand in the US, even with what some call "rebadges", but instead of being creative like we were with the '58 Bonneville which FOCUSED the Pontiac brand and allowed it to reach incredible heights of desirability, we've decided to simply give away our Pontiac customers to anyone who will take them. After all, who needs variety? Who needs market share? Who needs customers? We don't need no stinking customers! Customers, BE GONE!"

This would be my thought on the matter. To have Pontiacs heritage and pack in the towel is sort of like winning a football game by going back to the locker room and pulling off the pads before kickoff.

Sad, really.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

All I can say is that I wish Obama luck.. we are in for spme rough times ahead....

I wish Obama luck also, along with every other person in office.

We need both the right and the left here I think....we need to get away from the idea of deficit spending and borrowing for everything, and we need a safety net for the millions of hard working Americans who are about to loose their jobs and be unable to support their families.

Chris

[turbo200]

Pontiac is an easy remake. an affordable sports hatch that is FWD to cover the more snowy climes would be my base entry, something along the lines of the GTI is perfect, with that level of consistent build and materials quality to reinforce the quality and exclusive image that has eluded Pontiac for so long. My mainstream entry would be a slightly smaller overall length than Malibu Alpha mid line of coupe, sedan, and maybe wagon. this would be the renegade option to the more traditional Malibu upscale family sedan. On the upper end, as long as Holden is producing a RWD sedan as thier halo, Pontiac can also have one; the next one should follow a Pontiac theme, clean fluid surfacing like the solstice with real presence in the front end and rear end design. interiors should be sport two tones with dramatic elements and much more high quality to justify current pricing scheme of where the G8 sits. G8 should shrink a little in size and at least 200lbs in mass. this line would much closer reflect the successful midsize Gran Prix and compact Grand Am of 2000.

[HarleyEarl]

In Pontiac's earlier days, didn't it have only one model? There were many versions of that model, but essentially only one model. I'm beginning to think this is not such a bad idea.

[gm4life]

Listen I think lots of Pontiac lovers have expressed concerns and sent them onto GM. I most certainly have. I hope they can listen. Less models is fine but a Solstice, G6 and G8 line-up wouldn't bother me.

[hyperv6]

In Pontiac's earlier days, didn't it have only one model? There were many versions of that model, but essentially only one model. I'm beginning to think this is not such a bad idea.

Pontiac had several versions of one model in the days of old.

Untill GM fixes Chevy and other problems Pontiac can chill with one model. As it is they are not making a killing with the prices they are selling for. So to sell cars just for the sake of market share is not going to work if they stop sending them to Avis.

MY GP resales is trashed due to fleet sales. Even my Loaded GTP is killed due to the many rental GT's.

Untill GM can afford to fix the many Pontiac models I would rather see them get set aside till the funds are their to bring them back. It is not the G names that killed Pontiac but the cars they are offering.

GM just does not have the money to fix all these models and Chevy at the same time. Chevy is the profit center so it get the money. I am sure Lutz would like to fix Pontiac as much as we do as it is the division that suit his personality. If you don't have the money you just don't have the money. And to bring back Pontiac to the point they will get a good return on that money they need a lot more than GM can give right now.

Too many here are too close to Pontiac and just don't see them in the same light as the general public does. It ain't good outside the enthusiast circles. I take a good beating from the non Poncho fans for my like of Pontiac and I can say they are all wrong. The G name issue never even comes up as most of the cars they like are all number models from various brands.

Edited December 21, 2008 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

I'd rather Pontiac have an Alpha-based sedan and coupe as their one model than have 4 models if the other 3 are the G5, G3, and G6; it's not necessarily a bad thing.

Can't argue with that.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'll be there to help GM out when I purchase a new Camaro! I like the Pontiac brand alot. My girlfriend has a 2002 Grand Prix. It is a very nice car in my opinion and I think the same about alot of the other Pontiac cars. Its sad it came to this but if GM thinks they have to do this to stay alive then Im with them. Hopefully it doesn't bite them in the ass!

Normally, I'd be right there with you. However, In my relatively limited time of being a GM fan (15-20 years) I've sat here and watched them squander opportunity after opportunity. I can only IMAGINE how the GM lifers feel.

Pontiac is an easy remake. an affordable sports hatch that is FWD to cover the more snowy climes would be my base entry, something along the lines of the GTI is perfect, with that level of consistent build and materials quality to reinforce the quality and exclusive image that has eluded Pontiac for so long. My mainstream entry would be a slightly smaller overall length than Malibu Alpha mid line of coupe, sedan, and maybe wagon. this would be the renegade option to the more traditional Malibu upscale family sedan. On the upper end, as long as Holden is producing a RWD sedan as thier halo, Pontiac can also have one;

+1 X 1000!!! Excellent plan!

the next one should follow a Pontiac theme, clean fluid surfacing like the solstice with real presence in the front end and rear end design. interiors should be sport two tones with dramatic elements and much more high quality to justify current pricing scheme of where the G8 sits. G8 should shrink a little in size and at least 200lbs in mass. this line would much closer reflect the successful midsize Gran Prix and compact Grand Am of 2000.

I think the next G8 should follow what the Zeta GTO was supposed to be, in that it is restrained but still Pontiac specific. As for the Alpha line, I say it directly adopts the Solstice look and capitalizes on the successful image that this Pontiac has already built. As for the GTI entry... Anything but cheap, is my mantra. Doesn't have to be traditional or tame. In fact, it needs to turn heads.

Edited December 22, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[hyperv6]

Ok with all this remake of Pontiac stuff.

The bottom line how much would it cost? Let see some real figures. Talk is cheap.

Also where would the money come from over and above what GM is already working on like the new Buicks, Cadillac, Volt and Chevys?

If anyone has a realistic idea of how to save Pontiac they need to include numbers. IF someone could show GM a economic way to save Pontiac you just may do it. Coming up with models is the easy part just paying to design, test, tool, Marketing it properly is where the problem is. If we want to save Pontiac we need to stop complaining and find the money to do it.

We can't take money saved from Hummer or Saturn as it is already going to save GM. Saab is off the table as it looks to be staying as part owned by GM at the least.

Also if you plan to market this car you have to make all new models available some where outside North America. That is the new GM way so they can not excape that if your doing more than one model.

Our best bet it to work at the future with a Apha based model and make 2 or 3 versions of it. I am sure by the time a Alpha is available money will either be more available or GM will be working out of Chapter 11. Also they will have to share the platform to save on development cost.

Taking the budget for the entire Pontiac line now and placing it on one model three versions. Make it special. Use the present maketing money for just one car. You might pull it off. IF it sells and woirks out well you can grow the line again as demand warrents and let the models pay the way for Pontiac.

Pontiac is at the point it needs to learn how to walk before it can run again. To toss a lot of money at Pontiac now much of it will be wasted. GM as a whle needs and is working to do this. For a company to recover it has to step back to move forward.

Pontiac has the luxury of not having to remake the entire line at one time. Use that to your advantage. Buickl and the new adde models I expect from Opel and China will support Buick with car people here never imagined Buick doing. Pontiac can take advantage of this and earn their way back. Sharing with Holden is your international link.

As for the amount of money I can not cover that. There are some here informed and smart enough they could help with what it would take.

Like it or not it is just my out of the box though It may be a workable idea it may not be. But to stay as it is now it will not work.

Maybe someone can come up with a better idea based on this?

The bottom line is we need new ideas as they are not going to use the same old ones we rehash.

[ShadowDog]

I'm of the opinion the historic names were shed as a move to wipe the slate clean for image-sake. The name of a model may just as much be connected to as many bad experiences as good ones. Nobody can associate a new model name with the past images of older model names to look back on. The ambition was to draw the attention of buyers from imports. I feel the only way this was to happen would be with just as they did by removing the past associated with Pontiac. The quality of the new models was vastly improved. Recognizing this required more than just simple marketing, it required an overhaul. GM required new buyers, the ones traditionally keeping their eyes on imports as their next purchase. How many of these buyers actually have any idea of Pontiac's past model lineup names. Quite frankly, even if the old names were slapped on the new models, I don't believe it would have made any improvement. In fact, I believe the opposite would have been the result.

[buyacargetacheck]

The reason GM is talking about moving Pontiac to one model is because industry sales have fallen 30% almost overnight ON TOP OF a situation where GM already does not have pricing power. In order to move Pontiacs, GM has to discount the hell out of them which means they make no profit. As a result the best selling Pontiac, the G6, ends up eroding the pricing of the Malibu which GM is spending a ton of dough on to advertise. Self-defeating.

The winds are changing folks. The 1960s are over. Don't be surprised when GM finally reveals that the one surviving Pontiac is not the V-8 powered G8 after all but the fuel-efficient best-selling (after the G6) Vibe. Compare the Vibe and G8 sales figures, then look at the incentives being offered on both. Think about it.

Edited December 22, 2008 by buyacargetacheck

[hyperv6]

I'm of the opinion the historic names were shed as a move to wipe the slate clean for image-sake. The name of a model may just as much be connected to as many bad experiences as good ones. Nobody can associate a new model name with the past images of older model names to look back on. The ambition was to draw the attention of buyers from imports. I feel the only way this was to happen would be with just as they did by removing the past associated with Pontiac. The quality of the new models was vastly improved. Recognizing this required more than just simple marketing, it required an overhaul. GM required new buyers, the ones traditionally keeping their eyes on imports as their next purchase. How many of these buyers actually have any idea of Pontiac's past model lineup names. Quite frankly, even if the old names were slapped on the new models, I don't believe it would have made any improvement. In fact, I believe the opposite would have been the result.

That is the open new thinking we need.

[hyperv6]

The reason GM is talking about moving Pontiac to one model is because industry sales have fallen 30% almost overnight ON TOP OF a situation where GM already does not have pricing power. In order to move Pontiacs, GM has to discount the hell out of them which means they make no profit. As a result the best selling Pontiac, the G6, ends up eroding the pricing of the Malibu which GM is spending a ton of dough on the advertise. Self-defeating.

The winds are changing folks. The 1960s are over. Don't be surprised when GM finally reveals that the one surviving Pontiac is not the V-8 powered G8 after all but the fuel-efficient best-selling (after the G6) Vibe. Compare the Vibe and G8 sales figures, then look at the incentives being offered on both. Think about it.

Lets face it too many are thinking G8. [i hope they are right but]

The cheapest car to keep is the VIbe. GM has to spend so little on this one. They don't engineer it they don't built it. They just style it and market it. PAy a fee to Toyota as part of the deal they have. The Vibes life will be longer with the new CAFE vs the G8.

[Camino LS6]

Lets face it too many are thinking G8. [i hope they are right but]

The cheapest car to keep is the VIbe. GM has to spend so little on this one. They don't engineer it they don't built it. They just style it and market it. PAy a fee to Toyota as part of the deal they have. The Vibes life will be longer with the new CAFE vs the G8.

The Vibe?

Why even bother?

Pontiac is already dead if that is the chosen option.

Utterly, and entirely, pointless.

[BuddyP]

Pontiac deffinatly lost it's way. Will be VERY greatful to see the G5, G3 and Torrent DIE! Yes keep the G8 (drove one and love it). We know the Solstice will not be back after this generation. The Vibe in general is a good concept as a vehicle, just can't stand the fact that they used the Matrix for it. Would never buy one for that one reason.

My first car was a 89 Bonneville SSE, fully loaded. Next was a white '92 Grand Prix GTP 5-speed. after that had a '90 Bonneville SE that I used to rack the miles on while driving to school (this was all between '93 and '97 for the SSE and GTP, had the SE until just over a year ago). Didn't continue with Pontiac's because I moved onto a truck. When the wife was ready for a new vehicle we originally was going to get a G6 GT, but waited an extra year and bought a Saturn Aura XR this past April becuase it looks better inside and out. I'd be all for a G8 for our "next car", but that's a few years away and I'm sure something will change by then.

[Z-06]

Lets face it too many are thinking G8. [i hope they are right but]

The cheapest car to keep is the VIbe. GM has to spend so little on this one. They don't engineer it they don't built it. They just style it and market it. PAy a fee to Toyota as part of the deal they have. The Vibes life will be longer with the new CAFE vs the G8.

So hyper, are you expecting derivatives of vibe, i.e. Corolla platform or just the wagon itself.

I am serious. Do you think GM will go a step further and make NUMMI more effective? Both Toy and GM are to gain from it.

[Chazman]

Actually Pontiac is sold in the USA, Canada, and Mexico. Another thing I think turned off traditional Pontiac buyers were the G names. Pontiac cut it's own throat when they gave up historic names like Bonneville, Grand Prix, Grand Am, etc. for G8, G6, G5. How foolish for Lutz to change to the generic G names that meant nothing and still stand for nothing, and jettison the great names of past Pontiac models. Everyone knew what you drove when you said Bonneville, Grand Prix, and Grand Am. The public was left scratching their heads when you said I drive a G6 or a G5, and I actually think that's part of the problem with poor sales of the G8, people don't like those names. Did GM learn nothing from the doomed name change from Sunbird to J2000 back to Sunbird again, during the hiatus of the Sunbird name during the 1981 & 1982 model years?

I blame Lutz for Pontiac's demise. Part of the reason he was hired was to fix Pontiac, Pontiac was supposed to be his brand, his baby, the one brand he connected with the most. Well he fixed it alright, 1st he gave us a warmed up leftover of the Holden Monaro and called it the GTO, which he rushed to market. GTO traditionalist turned their collective nose up at that car, there went that loyal group, out the door. Then he got rid of the Bonneville, bye bye Bonneville fans. Then the Grand Prix was next on his hit list, we'll miss you loyal Grand Prix buyers. Now we have the G8 that was supposed to pick up those loyal Bonneville and Grand Prix buyers, yet the G8 flounders on dealer lots much like it's GTO sibling did between 2004 - 2006. When you don't learn from your past mistakes, you repeat them. Just like when Lutz brought out the Solstice ragtop in the dead of winter, another bonehead move. By the way, speaking of the Kappa cars, they are only building 50 cars a day, looks like another failure on the way under Lutz' watch. Remember now, Pontiac was his baby, I'd hate to see what he would have done to Pontiac had he hated it, and why was the Vibe given to Pontiac and not Chevy to replace the Chevy Prizm again?

I use to love Pontiac, but in its place all that is left is Brand G, how fitting.

I agree with alot of what you say here PCS. And I'll go one further. I think the GTO did great harm to Pontiac. Not so much because it was a sales flop, but because in one fell swoop, it took Pontiac in a whole new direction. Up until the Monaro was imported as the GTO, AFAIK, Pontiac had a pretty sizzling line-up coming, with AWD and SC'd Epsilon models. When the GTO came, it seemed to suck all the oxygen out of the room - and there was no one left to fight for much else.

[Camino LS6]

Can't agree on that, I think that the GTO raised the bar.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I agree with alot of what you say here PCS. And I'll go one further. I think the GTO did great harm to Pontiac. Not so much because it was a sales flop, but because in one fell swoop, it took Pontiac in a whole new direction. Up until the Monaro was imported as the GTO, AFAIK, Pontiac had a pretty sizzling line-up coming, with AWD and SC'd Epsilon models. When the GTO came, it seemed to suck all the oxygen out of the room - and there was no one left to fight for much else.

That would make sense, given the Grand Am SC/T show car and the constant rumors surrounding it. (i.e. "It will be the new GTO" and "supercharged mid-size cars") That also would've fit into the Pontiac 'induction' trend. Supercharged GP, Ram Air Trans Am and Grand Am (Remember the "Ram Air" that gave the Grand Am GT 5 more hp?)

That's so sad... That Pontiac had such a bright future.

As far as people thinking about the future of Pontiac... We're all realistic, but given the "gossip" that is coming out of GM, Pontiac will instead focus on performance (as opposed to the Vibe) Now, whether that materializes will remain to be seen.

I just hope that GM realizes the potential of Pontiac and actually tries to save it, instead of this just being a ploy to shed the brand. Kudos to GM for keeping Saab, or some form of it. I think it is essential that GM shrink to no less than 6 divisions.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Can't agree on that, I think that the GTO raised the bar.

For those of us that know what the hell we're talking about, sure it raised the bar a lot.

But to the general public/boomers (MOST of which know exactly what a GTO was and IS supposed to be) it did nothing but di the hole deeper in a lot of ways.

Edited December 22, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Chazman]

Can't agree on that, I think that the GTO raised the bar.

In which way?

( and don't get me wrong, because the GTO was on my shopping list)

[daves87rs]

Pontiac is an easy remake. an affordable sports hatch that is FWD to cover the more snowy climes would be my base entry, something along the lines of the GTI is perfect, with that level of consistent build and materials quality to reinforce the quality and exclusive image that has eluded Pontiac for so long. My mainstream entry would be a slightly smaller overall length than Malibu Alpha mid line of coupe, sedan, and maybe wagon. this would be the renegade option to the more traditional Malibu upscale family sedan. On the upper end, as long as Holden is producing a RWD sedan as thier halo, Pontiac can also have one; the next one should follow a Pontiac theme, clean fluid surfacing like the solstice with real presence in the front end and rear end design. interiors should be sport two tones with dramatic elements and much more high quality to justify current pricing scheme of where the G8 sits. G8 should shrink a little in size and at least 200lbs in mass. this line would much closer reflect the successful midsize Gran Prix and compact Grand Am of 2000.

Sounds great if GM had the money..

[daves87rs]

Umm..the Vibe and G5 are dead soon...they are NOT sticking around.

There is a reason while money was not spent on these cars.....

[turbo200]

I too agree the GTO was rushed to the market. in essence, i agree with most of what PCS said, all of it, but let me give my reason for why I think this is a really valid point. The GTO in its fundamentals did raise the bar for Pontiac and GM as a whole. back when it was released it was being compared somewhat favorably at least to cars like the M3 and beating competitors like the G35 and Mustang in performance tests. On quality, it had one of the best designed interiors and the best interior materials for any GM vehicle of its time.

but the GTO didn't scream a solid message. we all know now design instructs to us a message, mustang screams at you, G37 is loud and beautiful, camaro is cool. GTO not only did nothing to further pontiac's design message, but it also did nothing to further design since it looked dated the moment it was released. it looked anonymous, like nothing new. so in that respect at least, I don't think it raised the bar at all. coupes in this time have been show to be vanguard messages that must be 'lights on' attraction at all times, and the GTO didn't do anything special outside of looking quietly handsome.

imagine had the GTO been allowed a proper development cycle, to come here with a distinct product message to turn Pontiac around. I don't know if what PCS is saying about Lutz's relationship to Pontiac is true, but if so, he may have done a tremendous disservice by rushing the car instead of perfecting a message for Pontiac through that car.

[Intrepidation]

I too agree the GTO was rushed to the market. in essence, i agree with most of what PCS said, all of it, but let me give my reason for why I think this is a really valid point. The GTO in its fundamentals did raise the bar for Pontiac and GM as a whole. back when it was released it was being compared somewhat favorably at least to cars like the M3 and beating competitors like the G35 and Mustang in performance tests. On quality, it had one of the best designed interiors and the best interior materials for any GM vehicle of its time.

but the GTO didn't scream a solid message. we all know now design instructs to us a message, mustang screams at you, G37 is loud and beautiful, camaro is cool. GTO not only did nothing to further pontiac's design message, but it also did nothing to further design since it looked dated the moment it was released. it looked anonymous, like nothing new. so in that respect at least, I don't think it raised the bar at all. coupes in this time have been show to be vanguard messages that must be 'lights on' attraction at all times, and the GTO didn't do anything special outside of looking quietly handsome.

imagine had the GTO been allowed a proper development cycle, to come here with a distinct product message to turn Pontiac around. I don't know if what PCS is saying about Lutz's relationship to Pontiac is true, but if so, he may have done a tremendous disservice by rushing the car instead of perfecting a message for Pontiac through that car.

This, I agree on wholeheartedly.

[turbo200]

by the way, fast analysis of the swoopy Epsilons that were coming to Pontiac. Pontiac, not Lutz, greatly missed the mark on the design. I'm guessing it must have been the design hard points being locked in or GM's insistence not to spend much on differentiation, because last gen Malibu DNA is all over the G6, but they greatly missed the mark. The production model traded all of the concept's four door coupe glory, sleek elegant profile, fast in motion stance, and progressive high quality interior for a drab interior concept cribbed from the last gen Altima and an overall exterior completely reminiscent of that same car. I mean to think you could base a car off a last gen Japanese model that raised to cult popularity and call it an American model with less quality and less performance, and you're good to go, is pure insanity. whoever approved G6 as it is, must be fired. What a waste of an opportunity.

[Intrepidation]

I've always said the G6 looks like a Japanese Pontiac.

[turbo200]

the name issue was a big mistake. call it ridding yourself of past baggage if you choose...but the selection of the new names was the most pathetic attempt at coolness, most lackadaisical and insubstantial and uncreative move ever in the history of naming vehicles. i mean what does 'G' stand for. gran prix and grand am were not just recognizable and associable with less than stellar product, but they are also just fundamentally attractive names. as is firebird. let's break it down to simple marketing. these names sell on their own cause they sound cool and evocative. it doesn't matter about association, for that can change like infiniti can change to mean something good instead of something relegated to the compost heap after years of failure and doldrums.

[turbo200]

in looking to the future, GM has to unify in thier definition and plans for vehicles and brands. everyday there is evidence they are moving ahead in great paces. the new equinox shows more than ever they get how to appropriately pitch vehicles at the right market and identify market segments, actual buyers, and what they're lookin for when they wanna buy their car.

if they start to execute at that level consistently, then they will succeed and will have enough resources to give Pontiac, also, its appropriate reborn place in the market. it is upscale and deviant. it is different and cool. it is attractive and oft-kilter, it is slightly mean-spirited, in a get out my way sort of fashion. but it hasn't been all of this in a long time.

to the money questions being asked here. I'm talking about cars that are readily available on other platforms. the only significant investments I'm taking about include distinct sheetmetal and interior re-designs. audi and VW do it with much less volume, throughout the world, across as many brands as GM has, and with much more success and alacrity.

the GTI competitor can come off Gamma, base it off the new Corsa, make sure the standard suspension for Pontiac is rough and tumble, stiff suspension, sporty direct steering, great performing powertrains, high standard level of quality, features don't necessarily need apply. yes, a Pontiac should have the option of some luxury goodies, but this is no Caddy. The alpha sedan already has a clear path for Cadillac. the new Camaro will show there is life left in high volume high feature level content highly attractive coupes at GM. the business case is there for Alpha, and gas prices have sort of reminded us we are at the mercy of OPEC [in that respect we can only do what's best for us, continue to develop alternative tech to show them we mean business, offer it in high volume solutions, incentivize it to encourage and spread the green message, whilst internal combustion engines could live on because of high viability]. alpha sedan for Pontiac is as simple as complete reskin and unique interior design, no more than $300 mil tops with a huge budget to spend their money wisely, get Holden or Saab on it, they both seem to make small miracles happen with light budgets. Finally, the G8, repeat steps 1 and 2 already outlined, spread across nice large sedan and gentleman's GT.

I don't expect or think this should happen in the next two years. but when GM gets on track to profitability, after they've worked out their debt and whatever other requirements our government has laid out for them, they should make a move towards using all resources wisely, and this would be one of them.

Edited December 22, 2008 by turbo200

[buyacargetacheck]

It's very strange reading the comments of a handful of Pontiac "fans" here who I have the feeling were born long after Pontiac's peak and who seem to be more in love with the idea of the mythical Pontiac as a performance car rather than what Pontiac really is and has been for a very long time. Here are the cold hard facts:

sales:

1978 896,980 (Pontiac's best year ever)

2001 533,402

2002 516,832

2003 475,615

2004 474,179

2005 437,806

2006 410,229

2007 358,022

2008 275,000 (???)

See a long 30 year pattern here? I was around in 1978, and I can tell you that that best-ever sales number was due in large part to the very popular "luxury" Grand Prix, the wheezy-shadow-of-its-former-self-but-still-very-sexy Trans Am/Firebird, and The Price Is Right's prize queen the Sunbird. Aside from some hot F-cars and some Buick turbo 3.8-equipped offerings there really wasn't anything very special that another GM brand didn't also have or "hot" until the latest GTO came about. And without the mediocre but very good selling Grand Am Pontiac would not have been able to keep the sales numbers as high as it did all those years. Still, they declined anyway.

The market has spoken. Jeez even Michael Knight, Jim Rockford and Burt Reynolds don't drive Pontiacs anymore.

[turbo200]

i don't think anyone here is too confused or off the mark about where Pontiac stands in today's marketplace or how it's perceived. it is junk and garbage. plasticy and overwrought. rubbish and tacky. relegated to rental stands. relic from the past, literally. just downright substandard.

that doesn't mean that what Pontiac is supposed to be isn't something that is immensely marketable. it is youthful, fun, attractive, and a party. buick is boring and stately, too sober [even in its idealized 'premium' sense, which it ain't yet occupying baby]. chevrolet is everyman and quaint, nothing to see here. cadillac is not the wild child, more the out of reach anti-social. pontiac's message of what it's supposed to be is in, and always will be.

the product just isn't there yet. think firebird 1969 and the message of what pontiac is, is resounding.

Edited December 22, 2008 by turbo200

[buyacargetacheck]

Money was not spent on the Vibe and it'll be dead soon???? It's new for 2009 and one of their better sellers.

Umm..the Vibe and G5 are dead soon...they are NOT sticking around.

There is a reason while money was not spent on these cars.....

[buyacargetacheck]

Nobody but a figurative handful of fanboys and car geek historians thinks of Pontiac this way in 2008. The world has moved on and it isn't waiting for GM to get its s__t together. Lutz tried his best to resurrect this old image, and his efforts failed. There apparently won't be a third act.

Your description of Chevy, btw, is bizarrely Sloanian and delusional. Chevrolet has more of a performance image today than Pontiac has. The return on investment for limited run performance vehicles badged as Chevrolets is higher and less of a risk for GM: that's why Chevy keeps getting better Corvettes, the new Camaro, turbo Cobalts/HHRs, etc. Pontiac gets something else: the hook.

that doesn't mean that what Pontiac is supposed to be isn't something that is immensely marketable. it is youthful, fun, attractive, and a party. buick is boring and stately, too sober [even in its idealized 'premium' sense, which it ain't yet occupying baby]. chevrolet is everyman and quaint, nothing to see here. cadillac is not the wild child, more the out of reach anti-social. pontiac's message of what it's supposed to be is in, and always will be.

the product just isn't there yet. think firebird 1969 and the message of what pontiac is, is resounding.

[turbo200]

Nobody but a figurative handful of fanboys and car geek historians thinks of Pontiac this way in 2008. The world has moved on and it isn't waiting for GM to get its s__t together. Lutz tried his best to resurrect this old image, and his efforts failed. There apparently won't be a third act.

Your description of Chevy, btw, is bizarrely Sloanian and delusional. Chevrolet has more of a performance image today than Pontiac has. The return on investment for limited run performance vehicles badged as Chevrolets is higher and less of a risk for GM: that's why Chevy keeps getting better Corvettes, the new Camaro, turbo Cobalts/HHRs, etc. Pontiac gets something else: the hook.

you must've missed the first part of your post. on your second note, i mean it's not like I don't read about cars or just ignored the ZR1. it's just the message the standard chevy sends out, aside from the macho camaro, is one of everyday casual transport. sportiness notwithstanding, we're talking about design interpretation, not go fast engines or special models. the concept designers work years on to understand, and then perfect in thier design language that is produced.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

i don't think anyone here is too confused or off the mark about where Pontiac stands in today's marketplace or how it's perceived. it is junk and garbage. plasticy and overwrought. rubbish and tacky. relegated to rental stands. relic from the past, literally. just downright substandard.

that doesn't mean that what Pontiac is supposed to be isn't something that is immensely marketable. it is youthful, fun, attractive, and a party. buick is boring and stately, too sober [even in its idealized 'premium' sense, which it ain't yet occupying baby]. chevrolet is everyman and quaint, nothing to see here. cadillac is not the wild child, more the out of reach anti-social. pontiac's message of what it's supposed to be is in, and always will be.

the product just isn't there yet. think firebird 1969 and the message of what pontiac is, is resounding.

+1 again...

I think Turbo should be hired by GM.

you must've missed the first part of your post. on your second note, i mean it's not like I don't read about cars or just ignored the ZR1. it's just the message the standard chevy sends out, aside from the macho camaro, is one of everyday casual transport. sportiness notwithstanding, we're talking about design interpretation, not go fast engines or special models. the concept designers work years on to understand, and then perfect in thier design language that is produced.

It's kind of ironic that buyacargetacheck accuses us of living in the past, when in reality it is he that is stuck in the past and clouding his vision for the potential of Pontiac.

Just IMO.

Edited December 22, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[hyperv6]

So hyper, are you expecting derivatives of vibe, i.e. Corolla platform or just the wagon itself.

I am serious. Do you think GM will go a step further and make NUMMI more effective? Both Toy and GM are to gain from it.

I don't know what they want to do but the deal ia already made with Toyota so they will neither gain or lose.

Too many assume this saved car is the G8 while they sit on dealer lots unsold at very cheap prices.

My thought is for ther most GM has little care if Pontiac lives or dies. THe Vibe is cheap for them to produce with the NUMMI deal. and it keep them from paying out money to dealers to close at a time they have little money.

With cutting Pontiac to one model do you really think GM cares if Pontiac lives or dies? It is all about the money or the lack of and some need understand that.

Besides how longer is the NUMMI contract still in effect? It may be longer than what GM intends to keep Pontiac around?

This may be the last Indian standing simply due to the contract length with NUMMI?

Edited December 22, 2008 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

>>"1978 896,980 (Pontiac's best year ever)"<<

PMD records :

1978 : 900,380

1973 : 919,872

1968 : 910,977

For what it's worth, 1973's model line breakout ~

Ventura II : 96,500

LeMans / LeMans Sport / Luxury LeMans : 200,843

Grand Am : 43,293

GTO : 4,806

Catalina : 237,065

Bonneville : 46,898

Grand Ville : 90,172

Grand Prix : 153,899

Firebird : 46,313

commercial chassis : 240

Edited December 22, 2008 by balthazar