Something that really pisses me off.

[ocnblu]

Excellent, Mr. Civic. Words to live by.

[balthazar]

Roosevelts words; so true. It is why I refuse to use "***-American" labels, it's segregational & race-centric PC BS. If you are a citizen, you are an American. Done. Ethnic origin is the answer to a different question. You want to be treated the same as the mainstream RE opportunities/wages? Assimilate and work your ass off.

>>"...gardener? More like fast food worker around here. Or construction. "<<

I'm in construction, and I've seen immigrant labor. How about entire load-bearing walls where the studs don't touch the sill plate and instead float an inch high on 12 nails? Basement walls that crack before the house is even framed or are off-level by 2 inches corner-to-corner? You want this sh!t work in your house? It's there, thanks to dirt-cheap labor that cannot communicate. Today's homes (and I work in multi-million $ ones regularly) aren't as well built as a house even 20 years old, but much like modern cars, everyone is told they're fantastic & better than ever. 'Oh look; an 'appliance garage!' My brother's house is a '36, we've torn into it, it's a rock- no corners cut anywhere.

>>"Why not go take their jobs, so that none are left to offer them?"<<

With no taxes to pay and a 3rd world economic history, they take whatever pay they're offered and don't even think about protesting. Are you willing to underbid them? When presented with quality work done right, and 1/2 the labor cost, which do you think too many employers go for?

Unlike the theory in the car industry, here 'more competition' is only lowering the bar, not raising it. It's not 'work Americans won't do', it's 'work Americans can't do for 40 cents on the dollar'.

[Intrepidation]

Excellent, Mr. Civic. Words to live by.

+1

Too bad we don't anymore.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Dodgefan

[AAS]

Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN

...

Well, then apparently i'm NOT an American... (I've almost nailed the assimilation part, but if anybody askes "I'm an Armenian, born in Mexico, and living in the US," and in case you are wondering I am a citizen of 2/3's of North America)

...

>>"Why not go take their jobs, so that none are left to offer them?"<<

With no taxes to pay and a 3rd world economic history, they take whatever pay they're offered and don't even think about protesting. Are you willing to underbid them? When presented with quality work done right, and 1/2 the labor cost, which do you think too many employers go for?

Unlike the theory in the car industry, here 'more competition' is only lowering the bar, not raising it. It's not 'work Americans won't do', it's 'work Americans can't do for 40 cents on the dollar'.

Totally agree with everything, except the "it's work Americans can't do" part. Here's my "Something that really pisses me off:" if somebody is unemployed and homeless, and has been for a while, then wouldn't they be more then happy to get a job? (I figure the answer is no, considering they probably make a lot more begging.)

Anyway... the funny thing about this thread is, I ALSO CAN'T STAND areas that have been overrun by one race to the point that it might as well be a little chunk of their homeland. I just feel like this thread started out with all the WRONG arguments, and nobody has really offered solutions. And when I did offer anything, all I heard back (up until balthazar's post) was 'I don't have the power to do anything about it,' followed by a bunch of sarcastic remarks...

Edited September 11, 2008 by AAS

[loki]

Well, the military is desperate for new recruits...they have to get what they can get.

but they'll have to learn english anyway, it's the official and only language in the armed forces.

...i've heard the manual for an A-1 abrams is just pictures.

[Lamar]

I haven't posted since the first page...

... but after reading through every posts, I have an interesting point that I read some time ago:

Research has shown, to some extent, that many of the Hispanic undocumented immigrants (I refuse to say "illegal" anymore, even if the process isn't legit) don't exactly plan on staying in the country. Hence a possible explanation to why many don't try to become proficient in English.

To everyone who emigrated from wherever else (mostly Europe) or whose predecessors did... when you and/or your parents/grandparents/ancestors first came here, did you/they plan on staying forever?

[CARBIZ]

Well, another emotional firestorm.

For me personally, I remember growing up in Vancouver where out of 30 kids there were 20 'whites' (who knows what they were - Italian, British, whatever), 5 Chinese, 1 or 2 Japanese and a Hindu kid. We all got along fine. Today, the Catholic school beside my building is 95% Pilipino. The public school up the street is 90%, well -non white. A blond or a light skinned kid is rare.

When I moved to Toronto about 30 years ago, the occasional time I heard Chinese or Farsi or whatever was neat and kind of a novelty. Now, in the elevators I rarely hear English. In a crowd, the Euros are a dying breed. This goes beyond English speaking or not. My father built the United Church on Islington Avenue, here in Toronto, and then he was married in it. Now, the entire neighbhorhood has gone South-Asian and Caribbean. I ask myself what is going to happen to 'my' culture and 'my' values if this continues. Do I even have any rights? Am I being racist because when I go into a bar I don't like being hit on by every Asian guy in the place? (the bars are now 30-40% Asian in this city.) Would it take a KKK membership just to, well, hang out with 'my own?' (Whatever that is?) There is such a double standard in both our countries.

I lump North America and Europe into the category of 'the West.' Frankly, the West is committing cultural suicide. Every Western country has a negative birthrate. We are told that we must accept immigrants to maintain our standard of living: that is the accepted factoid. What is happening, however, is a marked change in the cultural make up of our major cities. Although the intellectual in me hopes that they will one day adopt our culture and customs, I don't see much evidence of that. In fact, studies have proven that recent immigrants are assimilating less. There are a lot of reasons for that, but the most obvious one is critical mass: once there is certain mass of them, they don't need to assimilate. They have their own business associations, their own bars, their own groups and university affiliations.

I don't think there is a culture in history that has allowed this to happen. From the Romans to the Ottomans, whenever a civilization became 'successful' they imposed their ways on their immigrants and on the people they absorbed. We are too busy apologising for the sins of our great grandparents to notice that we have given away the keys to the kingdom.

I think there is a fine line between being xenophobic (like China and Persia were) and being over-run. I believe one of the reason's Great Britain became an unparalleled global ruler and so have her heirs, is because we have successfully figured out how to absorb new ideas without being absorbed ourselves. If we allow ourselves to be diluted and sapped of our energies, we risk being dragged down to the level of the countries our recent immigrants are escaping.

I hope they (the unwashed masses arriving on our shores) can appreciate that. There is a reason the West has the highest standard of living. Respect that or there will be nothing else to covet.

[CARBIZ]

I haven't posted since the first page...

... but after reading through every posts, I have an interesting point that I read some time ago:

Research has shown, to some extent, that many of the Hispanic undocumented immigrants (I refuse to say "illegal" anymore, even if the process isn't legit) don't exactly plan on staying in the country. Hence a possible explanation to why many don't try to become proficient in English.

To everyone who emigrated from wherever else (mostly Europe) or whose predecessors did... when you and/or your parents/grandparents/ancestors first came here, did you/they plan on staying forever?

Ah, but there you have hit one of the biggest nails on the head: 80 years ago, when the poor Irish and Poles and Italians came over - they were commited. They knew they would never see their family again. They had $100 in their pocket and often they were told by our government to move to the Prairies and farm. No telephones. No internet. Three weeks by steamer and a week by train. Yes, indeed - they became Canadians or Americans because they had NO choice.

Today, a $5 phone card and you can talk to your mother in India for 40 minutes. Have a picnic with your kids and upload the pictures to your in-laws on the spot. $1,000 will fly you almost anywhere in this world within 18 hours. Entire legions of lawyers and 'advisors' in the immigrant industry will tell you your rights, file you for free government hand-outs and tell you how to bring your entire village here - legally.

There was an article in the Toyota Star a few months ago about a Cuban exile in Toronto. He is an architect and has been here FORTY YEARS. He was commenting on Castro's failing health and he added that he can't wait until Castro dies so that he can go HOME. FORTY F$#KING years in MY country, and this man pines for his 'true' home.

F$#k you, I say. Ship him back now.

[The O.C.]

You wanna move to the United States of America? Do it legally and learn English.

You know.....this thread is six pages long.....but DodgeFan's post above sums it ALL up nicely and neatly.

Edited September 11, 2008 by The O.C.

[Robert Hall]

You know.....this thread is six pages long.....but DodgeFan's post above sums it ALL up nicely and neatly.

+1

[Croc]

I'm in construction, and I've seen immigrant labor. How about entire load-bearing walls where the studs don't touch the sill plate and instead float an inch high on 12 nails? Basement walls that crack before the house is even framed or are off-level by 2 inches corner-to-corner? You want this sh!t work in your house? It's there, thanks to dirt-cheap labor that cannot communicate. Today's homes (and I work in multi-million $ ones regularly) aren't as well built as a house even 20 years old, but much like modern cars, everyone is told they're fantastic & better than ever. 'Oh look; an 'appliance garage!' My brother's house is a '36, we've torn into it, it's a rock- no corners cut anywhere.

And being in construction, you should then know that very few construction workers go above and beyond what is asked of them. The CONTRACTOR of SUBCONTRACTOR is responsible for the work done by whatever labor force he chooses. If his goal is to make a quick buck by cutting corners, then that's how his contracted employees will do their jobs.

My family's home was built in 1933, and I know exactly what you mean about construction from that vintage. My family's insistence on quality is also why we have so many subcontractors walk off the job because we DEMAND the quality.

[Croc]

Well, then apparently i'm NOT an American... (I've almost nailed the assimilation part, but if anybody askes "I'm an Armenian, born in Mexico, and living in the US," and in case you are wondering I am a citizen of 2/3's of North America)

Totally agree with everything, except the "it's work Americans can't do" part. Here's my "Something that really pisses me off:" if somebody is unemployed and homeless, and has been for a while, then wouldn't they be more then happy to get a job? (I figure the answer is no, considering they probably make a lot more begging.)

Anyway... the funny thing about this thread is, I ALSO CAN'T STAND areas that have been overrun by one race to the point that it might as well be a little chunk of their homeland. I just feel like this thread started out with all the WRONG arguments, and nobody has really offered solutions. And when I did offer anything, all I heard back (up until balthazar's post) was 'I don't have the power to do anything about it,' followed by a bunch of sarcastic remarks...

Agreed.

What pisses me off is people who just bitch without trying to do anything about it. I'm of a different generation, one that really doesn't get the whole "their kind" and "my kind" ways of thinking. Frankly, I don't give a &#036;h&#33; about ethnicity and culture when making friends because there's always something to learn from others. The sheer fact that I'm living in the same geographical area as someone gives us both access to the "local culture" that we have in common.

If I looked at my background, a predominantly Irish/English Catholic (now nonreligious) American-born Hoosier (someone from Indiana), I don't have very many friends of THAT EXACT background. I can't even think of one. My closest friends are primarily Hebrew, nonreligious, American-born, non-Hoosiers. I have a handful of Protestant friends, but very few. I have a single friend with a Catholic background, but that's where the similarities end, and I have only a few friends from Indiana.

And don't even get me started on the politics part of it...my friends are either progressive democrats or very conservative. Yet somehow we all seem to get along because despite no "on-paper" similarities, we enjoy each others' company, have mutual respect, and intelligent conversations. We also have a hell of a lot of fun.

---

As for neighborhoods being "overrun" with new populations, the greater question is why you have stayed in that neighborhood while "your people" have moved elsewhere. The immigrants didn't just start kicking people out of their homes and taking over.

Strong neighborhoods tend to have a lasting legacy. People who live in the ares and care about it tend to preserve its character. Either bad urban policy or other opportunities arising elsewhere (agglomeration economies, like Silicon Valley) caused the original population to shift elsewhere for reasons of jobs, schools, entertainment, etc.

You want to preserve your neighborhood? Get involved. Get on the neighborhood council, and if one doesn't exist, create it. Set up a neighborhood watch to combat crime if that's a problem. But the whole whining and complaining about how everything sucks and you can't do anything about it is nothing more than you playing the victim. Are you helpless? Do you seriously want to tell me you have NO control over your own destiny--that everybody else makes life happen and you are just a passive receiver of the consequences of everyone else's actions? Baloney.

[ocnblu]

To all those ppl with Puerto Rican flags all over their vehicles: Why? I don't have a Pennsylvania flag on my vehicle. By far, I see more Puerto Rican flags on vehicles around here than any other. GO BACK if you miss it so much.

[Intrepidation]

You know.....this thread is six pages long.....but DodgeFan's post above sums it ALL up nicely and neatly.

Thanks, and that's all I really want. I don't care what race or culture or whatever peopel come from, I just think they need to respect the one that they have moved to, and learn English, and do it legally.

[Croc]

To all those ppl with Puerto Rican flags all over their vehicles: Why? I don't have a Pennsylvania flag on my vehicle. By far, I see more Puerto Rican flags on vehicles around here than any other. GO BACK if you miss it so much.

Considering it's a Commonwealth and not a state, I'd say that they are either a) trying to raise awareness, or b) they want it to become a state.

[Intrepidation]

Considering it's a Commonwealth and not a state, I'd say that they are either a) trying to raise awareness, or b) they want it to become a state.

I highly doubt that.

[Delta Force79]

Considering it's a Commonwealth and not a state, I'd say that they are either a) trying to raise awareness, or b) they want it to become a state.

lol.

[Croc]

What, why would they come to the US if they didn't want to? Puerto Rico doesn't vote or have any say in the governance, and in return doesn't pay all the taxes the rest of us do.

I honestly don't see how it's any different than all the people with California flag-themed stickers on their cars around here...

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

What, why would they come to the US if they didn't want to? Puerto Rico doesn't vote or have any say in the governance, and in return doesn't pay all the taxes the rest of us do.

I honestly don't see how it's any different than all the people with California flag-themed stickers on their cars around here...

Heh well they DO receive some US aid, and they don't pay the taxes on it.

[Robert Hall]

Heh well they DO receive some US aid, and they don't pay the taxes on it.

I've long thought it was odd the the US owns Puerto Rico but it's not a state...I read the Wikipedia article about it. Interesting.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I highly doubt that.

Oh but they do, and they are working towards that. Here is the flag that they are using at their rallies now. It has 51 stars.

By the way they are U.S. citizens, just in case you didn't know.

[balthazar]

AAS- >>"Totally agree with everything, except the "it's work Americans can't do" part."<<

Well, by "can't" I mean if in the industry, they usually cannot afford to lower their income to illegals' levels.

[Croc]

Oh but they do, and they are working towards that. Here is the flag that they are using at their rallies now. It has 51 stars.

By the way they are U.S. citizens, just in case you didn't know.

Hmmm...the star formation looks really fresh and modern, but it makes the rectilinear aspects of the blue section and the stripes look very dated. It looks incongruous. I like the stars, though...looks like fireworks.

[ocnblu]

That's a desecration of our flag.

[Enzora]

That's a desecration of our flag.

Please tell me you're joking.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That's a desecration of our flag.

Well it will have to be redesigned when Puerto Rico becomes a State. That's as good a design as any. However if the Alaska Independence Party has it's way, we could continue with the current design of 50 stars after Puerto Rico joins. If Alaska does leave the Union, would Palin be ineligible to run or hold national office since technically Alaska would be a foreign country.

Oh and blu please explain to me how that's a desecration of our flag? You do know that's their flag too, if they become a state, the Puerto Rican flag would only become their state flag.

Edited September 12, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[balthazar]

One would think the liberal Dems would applaude Alaska, after all; doesn't the tiny AIP merely wish to separate from the 'maddness that is the 'Bush Doctrine' ' ??

Regardless; it'll never happen. IMO, it's more of a voice raised looking for change & improvement (tho I admit I have not yet looked into the AIP's 'platform').

I also see no driving reason to add PR as a state- the U.S. also claims the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands and another 10 islands as territories, should someone start working on "new, fresh" flags with everything from 51 to 65 stars ??

Me, I fly the 48-star flag at my house. Perhaps it's a secret signal to those like-minded separationists in my town, but I'll never tell.

[Robert Hall]

Texas was once a country...I really wouldn't care if they seceded...they can take the Deep South with them..

[SoCalCTS]

Okay, so why aren't there more Asian based advertisements based on your theory. The Asian advertising I see is pretty created by the Asian's living here, in places like China town etc. You won't find a sign in Japanese at a Walmart, bu tI can bet you'll find a Spanish one.

The shopping mall near my house in Carlsbad, Ca has public announcements in English, German, French, Japanese and Spanish. The signs are in English, Spanish and Japanese. It blows your Asians "are the good minority" theory to pieces.

Edited September 12, 2008 by SoCalCTS

[Delta Force79]

Yet again, I'd like to know where in this thread I said Asian's were the good minority? First it was comments I made regarding the military ( which were Dodgefan's remarks) now it's Asians are better....lol.

I love how you, and AAS mention only California. This is not the case across the country, and certainly not in my neck of the woods. Nor any of the states I've been through...including driving from NY to Florida and stopping off along the way in Virginia, North and South Carolina and Georgia along the way, for more than just fuel I might add. I've also traveled north of NY as well and I have yet to see such a diverse cultural acceptance in public malls and places like this. Sure they're Chinese eatery's and Pizzeria's and things like this, and maybe a store here and there that will have another language printed on it's sign, but it isn't common.

But then again there are areas here in New York that have turned into basically small Spanish towns, and small Asian towns. I'll give you an example, Port Chester NY has a high Hispanic population, with alot of the store's having their signs in Spanish only, but again this is not the problem, if they are legal citizen's and have succeeded in opening their own businesses and are making a honest living. The point I've been making this entire thread is those who come here illegally and get jobs without paying taxes are the problem. It's a slap in the face to people like myself who were born here and abide by the laws of this country. It's a lack of respect for our ways of life, and to be here and to get away with that is what pisses me off. To have our Government cater to a specific group of people just because they're here in large numbers and growing is wrong if a lot of them are sneaking into this country and not American citizen's. Larger companies who's automated phone's asking me to continue in English is the problem. This was not the case 50 years ago, nor even 20 years ago. It shouldn't be the case now either. American citizen's speak in the English language, whether officially or not it is the 'official' language of this country. Learn it.

Edited September 12, 2008 by Delta Force79

[CARBIZ]

AAS- >>"Totally agree with everything, except the "it's work Americans can't do" part."<<

Well, by "can't" I mean if in the industry, they usually cannot afford to lower their income to illegals' levels.

The cleaning industry is a perfect example of that. A friend of mine had a successful cleaning business for about 15 years. He would charge about $25 an hour because after paying all the employment taxes (and Worker's Compensation, for example), that would leave about $12 an hour to pay an employee and keep a small profit for his business. Then along came all the illegals, which started in a landslide about 10 years ago in the Toronto area: a lot of Portuguese, Spanish, South American. All these new companies cropped up, charging $20 an hour or less because the workers were getting $8 an hour CASH and the owner of the company was paying no taxes at all. How does someone legally compete with that?

The cleaning business, construction, restaurants. It is so obvious where the illegals congregate. It would be so easy for the government to do something about them, but they don't.

All this &#036;h&#33; about saving money is just one vicious spiral down the toilet. Sure, it would be nice to pay someone $10 a hour to clean my apartment, but if that person is paying no taxes and gets free healthcare (the local hospital I use has a big sign saying they don't divulge immigrant status to the authorities), gets to use our roads, schools, etc. - in the end, the people who are paying taxes will have to pay more to offset those who aren't. It is unbelievably easy to work illegally in Canada; I am sure the U.S. is the same. You can just form a 'company' (no I.D. required) and then can legally cash cheques in the 'company' name.

The same argument goes for offshoring our jobs to Asia: sure, you may pay 50% more for a washing machine, but if that employed 200 people in your state, wouldn't that be worth it in the end? Eventually, your income would rise (or your tax burden could fall) and the extra cost would be negligible.

There are a lot of costs to immigration that we are not allowed to talk about. All we hear are the same bull&#036;h&#33; about how this is a nation of immigrants, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but there was no free healthcare 40 years ago. Every time I see in the paper yet another immigrant is here and her kid requires $50k worth of surgery, prosthetics, whatever, I want to scream. No wonder Canada is spiralling down to 3rd world status.

One case in point: External Affairs spent $100 million dollars two years ago to evacuate 'Canadians' out of Beirut when the Israelis started shelling that city. WTF are 30,000 'Canadians' doing in Beirut?

[Oracle of Delphi]

There is a movement in the Southwest US that is being funded by the Mexican Government, that consist of Mexican Nationals and Mexican Illegals in the USA. It's goal is the Reconquista (Reconquering) the states of California, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and large portions of Nevada, Utah, and Colorado, and creating the Nation of Aztlán.

See Map:

[Robert Hall]

There is a movement in the Southwest US that is being funded by the Mexican Government, that consist of Mexican Nationals and Mexican Illegals in the USA. It's goal is the Reconquista (Reconquering) the states of California, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and large portions of Nevada, Utah, and Colorado, and creating the Nation of Aztlán.

See Map:

Interesting... I like this map, showing the proposed 'United States of Canada' in blue and 'Jesusland' in red..

Here is the flag for Jesusland, which I'm sure the right wingers would love:

Edited September 12, 2008 by moltar

[Satty]

If Alaska separated from the U.S. our dependence on foreign oil would increase substantially.

And crap, I live in Jesusland, I dont want to have to get a passport to visit normal people.

[Robert Hall]

If Alaska separated from the U.S. our dependence on foreign oil would increase substantially.

And crap, I live in Jesusland, I dont want to have to get a passport to visit normal people.

Yes, I live there also..I'll have to move to a blue state if McPalin wins..

[ocnblu]

Well, start packing.

[Satty]

I was out somewhere today and there was a guy talking on a cell phone (shocking!) but he was speaking Spanish. I wanted to punch him in the face, drive to the border and throw him back over, because that was totally threatening my way of life, who knows what he could have been talking about. Maybe he was telling his foreign friends how to cross into the states. Or making a joke about how he stole a job as a construction worker from the throngs of white people wanted. Maybe he was saying that he wanted to kill me and cook my intestines into a gordita then chase that with Sangria spiked with my blood, and follow it all with a nice churro.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Now, by the holy trinity, i think it should be named the Holy Ghostland, which of course sounds way cooler and ominous

Edited September 12, 2008 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[ocnblu]

Satty, don't be a retard. If foreigners want to speak to their family members who also do not speak English, how will they communicate? My gripe is, when a person does business in the USA, it will be done in English. I was born here. I am not going to alter my behavior to accommodate a foreigner. The burden is on THEM to learn to get along in my country. And that includes learning the language.

[Robert Hall]

Well, start packing.

Well, my plan is to move in 2009...no way can I live in AZ if McCain wins. Either back to Colorado (maybe to Boulder, it's a blue area) or somewhere on the West Coast or the East...

[Robert Hall]

I was out somewhere today and there was a guy talking on a cell phone (shocking!) but he was speaking Spanish. I wanted to punch him in the face, drive to the border and throw him back over, because that was totally threatening my way of life, who knows what he could have been talking about. Maybe he was telling his foreign friends how to cross into the states. Or making a joke about how he stole a job as a construction worker from the throngs of white people wanted. Maybe he was saying that he wanted to kill me and cook my intestines into a gordita then chase that with Sangria spiked with my blood, and follow it all with a nice churro.

Wierd...I hear people speaking in another language on cell phones all the time...you must not get out much.

[ocnblu]

Colorado is a beautiful state, but I'd miss the ocean, I'm afraid...

[Satty]

According to the 2000 census, 2.3% of the population of Springfield is of Hispanic or Latin heritage. This is the whitest place on earth, the buckle of the bible belt. There was a lynching on the square in 1906 and these people (well, these people 102 years ago) commemorated it on a coin, so yeah, there isn't much local diversity.

Speaking of speaking English, ESPN is showing the Red Sox game because the Yankees/Rays is in a rain delay. One of the NESN broadcasters just said "Dis afternoon when we gawt to da bahlpahk." It was awful.

[ocnblu]

Silly boy, Springfield is not real. It's a cartoon place, populated by bright yellow people with 4 fingers.

[Robert Hall]

Colorado is a beautiful state, but I'd miss the ocean, I'm afraid...

Yes..I've lived there 11 years, but do miss the ocean from my 6 years in the Florida Keys growing up. I think my ideal is ocean and mountains and green. Or at least, mountains, green and rivers....a changing of seasons w/ colorful leaves would be great..that is something I miss about E. Oh/ W. PA. I am not liking the desert...

Not that I really believe in astrology (I'm more into astronomy or agronomy), but being a Cancer, I'm supposed to need to be near water...no ocean here in the desert, but I do have a kick-ass pool.

Edited September 13, 2008 by moltar

[Robert Hall]

Silly boy, Springfield is not real. It's a cartoon place, populated by bright yellow people with 4 fingers.

Ah, yes..but I think Capital City is a bit nicer...don't care for Shelbyville myself.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Colorado is a beautiful state, but I'd miss the ocean, I'm afraid...

I didn't know Pennsylvania had an ocean!

[Satty]

Huh, I just thought I was jaundiced.

[Croc]

One would think the liberal Dems would applaude Alaska, after all; doesn't the tiny AIP merely wish to separate from the 'maddness that is the 'Bush Doctrine' ' ??

Are you being facetious, or what? Bush Doctrine: 2002. Palin was originally said to have been at the 1994 AIP Convention before the AIP head decided he "couldn't remember" if she was actually there or not--but Todd Palin sure was!

[Croc]

Satty, don't be a retard. If foreigners want to speak to their family members who also do not speak English, how will they communicate? My gripe is, when a person does business in the USA, it will be done in English. I was born here. I am not going to alter my behavior to accommodate a foreigner. The burden is on THEM to learn to get along in my country. And that includes learning the language.

So...what if they are doing business with a family member who does not speak English? What then?