Retrospective

[HarleyEarl]

1, 2, 3, 4 punch.

The 1970 1\2 Pontiac Firebird, the second generation. And what a generation it was.

They still look great.

Edited June 11, 2008 by HarleyEarl

[HarleyEarl]

[vonVeezelsnider]

Esprit version is the best.

[Blake Noble]

A second-generation F-Body inspired design was heavily explored in the creation of the new Camaro.

However, it was ultimately rejected because it was felt that it followed the Mustang too closely.

Edited June 11, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[balthazar]

Esprit is identical (exterior) to the base 'bird. Give me the Formula, then the T/A.

[daves87rs]

I'll take one of any of those, please.

I love Firebirds.

[cletus8269]

bigger fan of the understated formula's t/a's are nice but you can sneak under the radar a little easier with the formulas

[ocnblu]

Love that Formula 400. I'll take it!

[Camino LS6]

Formula FTW!

How about a new one on Alpha? :AH-HA_wink:

[XP715]

Very cool. I think the Formula 400 would be the pick of the bunch for me.

And why the eff does nobody make those awesome double whitewall tires that are in like EVERY old ad from this era anymore? I would put those on all sorts of stuff if they were available!

[Intrepidation]

A second-generation F-Body inspired design was heavily explored in the creation of the new Camaro.

However, it was ultimately rejected because it was felt that it followed the Mustang too closely.

Looks a lot like a 2-door Charger.

[zhawk]

Gotta agree that the Formula is the top pick.

Very cool. I think the Formula 400 would be the pick of the bunch for me.

And why the eff does nobody make those awesome double whitewall tires that are in like EVERY old ad from this era anymore? I would put those on all sorts of stuff if they were available!

You can still get tires like that. Coker tires makes whitewall tires for just about ever classic, vintage, and antique car or truck out there.

[SuperSport623]

my lord i love the early second gens

[HarleyEarl]

Esprit is identical (exterior) to the base 'bird. Give me the Formula, then the T/A.

So agree.....I always loved the Formula 400, something about those two forward hood scoops.

(and Mr. B, you are getting some fine signature pics lately.....that caddy is beyond hot)

[HarleyEarl]

[HarleyEarl]

[HarleyEarl]

Does anyone know who designed this generation of Firebird (and Camaro)?

[ocnblu]

Yikes, guessing on that one, prolly wrong-o: John DeLorean? Larry Shinoda? Wayne Cherry?

[HarleyEarl]

I can't seem to find any info on line, who the designer was but Ocean those could be some possibles......when did DeLorean leave the General?

[Camino LS6]

I seem to remember that it was Shinoda, not positive though.

[Camino LS6]

I was wrong.

Here's your answer:

http://www.firebirdtaclub.com/makbird.htm

[balthazar]

Of course, Mitchell was head of styling in this period.

DeLorean wasn't a stylist per say- more of a visionary.

The designer of both the 1st & 2nd gen Camaro was Henry C Haga, head of Chevrolet Studio 2.

Haga also designed the '68 Corvette, helped productionize the '65 Corvair, and was instrumental in the '64 Chevy II Super Nova concept. --The Great Camaro

Jack Humbert did the 1st gen Firebird exterior. Humbert did the initial work on the 2nd gen 'bird before being promoted to head all Chevrolet & Pontiac design, and later, long-time Buick designer Bill Porter (he did the last Riviera) finished off the 'bird. The 2nd gen is a Humbert/Porter design. --Pontiac, They Built Excitement

Edited June 12, 2008 by balthazar

[HarleyEarl]

Fantastic info.....thanks alot. Facinating stuff.

[Camino LS6]

My pleasure.

I must have been thinking of Schinella not Shinoda. I remembered reading an interview with him about this car in one of the rags quite a while back.

[HarleyEarl]

Bill Mitchell was quoted as saying the first generation of the Camaro was designed by committee but the second became a designer's design.

[Blake Noble]

What I would really love to see here would be initial sketches and clay proposals for the second-generation Firebird and Camaro.

Check this out:

[Sixty8panther]

I too have had a life long loveaffair wirth the 2nd gen. Firebird/TA.

There used to be a daily driven gold/gold Firebird Espirit in the

Haverhill area that was clean and straight... it was always such a

cool but also slightly awkward sight to see a '70-'73 Firebird with

no rear spoiler, ground effects, plain-jane hood, steel roof or any

of the other Firebird-isms like a screaming chicken on the hood.

[ocnblu]

Yeah, I remembered right after I posted that DeLorean was not a designer. And what a rich design history GM has here in the USA. The richest anywhere.

[HarleyEarl]

Yeah, I remembered right after I posted that DeLorean was not a designer. And what a rich design history GM has here in the USA. The richest anywhere.

YES!....it's why I'm such a fan of GM, their incredible design and engineering legacy over many years. With all GM's challenges over several years, one can forget what a design powerhouse they were. And it's cars like the 1970 1/2 Pontiac Firebird that so reflect that. So many of these were built and we still see many around, that they become commonplace, but when you really study this great design and it's details....wonderful stuff. To me this and the Camaro are milestones and will some day have more recognition.

[HarleyEarl]

What I would really love to see here would be initial sketches and clay proposals for the second-generation Firebird and Camaro.

Check this out:

Thanks for that look at the initial design study for this car....and me too, would love to see the first seeds of the idea for what I think is an iconic design.

[Blake Noble]

Thanks for that look at the initial design study for this car....and me too, would love to see the first seeds of the idea for what I think is an iconic design.

You are welcome.

I love seeing cars in their "embryonic" forms. It proves some of the best inspiration.

I once heard that the second-generation F-Body cars were to still have a pillar-less hardtop design and did in the early stages of their design. I would love nothing more than to see if there is any truth to that claim.

[Camino LS6]

YES!....it's why I'm such a fan of GM, their incredible design and engineering legacy over many years. With all GM's challenges over several years, one can forget what a design powerhouse they were. And it's cars like the 1970 1/2 Pontiac Firebird that so reflect that. So many of these were built and we still see many around, that they become commonplace, but when you really study this great design and it's details....wonderful stuff. To me this and the Camaro are milestones and will some day have more recognition.

I agree, some of the first-gen fans might crucify me for this, but I find the second-gen to be the f-body's finest incarnation.

[balthazar]

>>"I once heard that the second-generation F-Body cars were to still have a pillar-less hardtop design and did in the early stages of their design. I would love nothing more than to see if there is any truth to that claim."<<

Oh; there is. The Great Camaro by Micheal Lamm (I believe it's long out of print- my copy is a 4th printing from '81) is a fantastic book for the Camaro fan.

Indeed the early clays for the '70 did retain the quarter windows (making it of course, still a hardtop), but these were early on when the car still had heavy influences from the '69. By the time what is recognized as the '70 body was developed.... hm-mmm... apparently both Haga & Porter worked on the Camaro, because I see pics of the 2, quite similar.... but the Porter car is still a hardtop, whereas Haga's is the now-familiar coupe.

Of all the different clays & sketches- the production car is definately the best- and I always gravitate towards the prototypes over the OEMs. But this was typical of GM of the general post-war period: the best design always seemed to make it to the showroom every time.

Edited June 13, 2008 by balthazar

[HarleyEarl]

I'll watch for 'The Great Camaro'.

I was just looking at the Cadillac in your sig again and thinking, no other company, no other culture could come up with something so phucking incredible as that. It's not just a car. It's beyond that.

[SuperSport623]

dont get me wrong, i love the 1st gens, but they were more or less a compromise styling wise... when it was decided that there wasnt time to build a mustang competitor, time was not available to build a ground up platform, thats why the 1st gens were mostly X-body components (like my nova! woot!) while many areas could be differentiated, some styling hard points had to be retained, such as cowl height, windshiled rake, and other aspects that greatly affected styling.. when a completley independent platform was green lighted, the designers were then able to build the car they wanted, and the early second gens are exactly what they wanted, no compromise, awesome powerful statements of style

[Blake Noble]

>>"I once heard that the second-generation F-Body cars were to still have a pillar-less hardtop design and did in the early stages of their design. I would love nothing more than to see if there is any truth to that claim."<<

Oh; there is. The Great Camaro by Micheal Lamm (I believe it's long out of print- my copy is a 4th printing from '81) is a fantastic book for the Camaro fan.

Indeed the early clays for the '70 did retain the quarter windows (making it of course, still a hardtop), but these were early on when the car still had heavy influences from the '69. By the time what is recognized as the '70 body was developed.... hm-mmm... apparently both Haga & Porter worked on the Camaro, because I see pics of the 2, quite similar.... but the Porter car is still a hardtop, whereas Haga's is the now-familiar coupe.

Of all the different clays & sketches- the production car is definately the best- and I always gravitate towards the prototypes over the OEMs. But this was typical of GM of the general post-war period: the best design always seemed to make it to the showroom every time.

I have to obtain a copy of The Great Camaro then. If it is no longer in print, then I will buy an old copy of it from eBay.

[vonVeezelsnider]

There used to be a daily driven gold/gold Firebird Espirit in the

Haverhill area that was clean and straight...

James Garner in town?

[balthazar]

>>"I was just looking at the Cadillac in your sig again and thinking, no other company, no other culture could come up with something so phucking incredible as that. It's not just a car. It's beyond that. "<<

I would have to agree with you, and I'm not even particularly partial to the '67-68s. But this one has a great color and it's sittin' mighty purty.

>>"dont get me wrong, i love the 1st gens, but they were more or less a compromise styling wise... when it was decided that there wasnt time to build a mustang competitor, time was not available to build a ground up platform, thats why the 1st gens were mostly X-body components"<<

I don't see this as any sort of detriment to the 1st gens, at all. Clearly, the hobbyist has long ago spoken as to which they prefer, and only 1 of the 2 gens has an authentic brand new steel body shell being forged for the aftermarket.

But this is too often mentioned (in general- 'this was sourced from that') as if to explain away shortcomings. At one point there was a long rambling paragraph (since pared down a bit) on wiki on the 1st gen Seville, going on & on about wheel bolt circles between the Seville & a Nova- as if that said anything more than what it did- the same wheels could bolt onto either car. Again- this sort of thing is commonplace, entrenched, in references to GM product, and it serves no purpose but to degrade.

BTW- 2nd gen F-Body has a very steep windshield too. And the same aforementioned book states the Camaro & the Chevy II shared : "cowl structures, floorpans, the subframe & basic rear suspension systems. I can't go as far as to call that "most".

[HarleyEarl]

Here's a Firebird commercial video, the style and the music used could be used today:

[Sixty8panther]

Here's the story on the MISSING

[Sixty8panther]

Here's the story on the MISSING rear 1/4 windows on 70-up F-bodys.

Some smart@$$ed, go-getter pencil pusher determined if they

ELIMINATED the rear 1/4 windows on the F-bodys they would save

something like $60 a car between tooling/proudction/matterials.

And that boys & girls, is why the 70-76 cars have that FAT chunky

B-pillar that can hide a Peterbilt 379 and it's WIDE LOAD trailer.

It's quite SAD as it is one of the first documented cases of the

dreaded BEANCOUNTERS f***ing up a good thing at GM. This is

actually why I resented the 2nd gen. F-bodys for so log.

Oh, and as far as my source it was a first had account in one of

my books, (I too have the GREAT CAMARO) and I'll have to look

through all dozen or so F-body themed ones to find it.

[balthazar]

Well, The Great Camaro states the amount was only $18 per car, and that money went into upgrading the interior. IMO, the coupe design of the 2nd gen works perfectly well with the rest of the body- it's not like its a cheap-o fixed-quarter-window 2-dr sedan! It's also not like the $18 saved was pocketed- the money still went into the car itself. 'Fraid I cannot lay blame here...

Personally, I'm a full-size car guy; always have been (all the intermediates and smaller have traditionally been de-engineered from the big cars anyway). But around 2002 I got the opportunity to sit in a '71 T/A for a spell, and I DUG that car, which surprised me mightily. I could actually see myself owning one... maybe... it was pretty damned cool.

Edited June 14, 2008 by balthazar