De Lorenzo: It's all over but the hand-wringing for Pontiac

[enzl]

I'm not disputing the percentages, but they are -of course- extrapolated from actual quantities. Doesn't come off dire & dreadful enough for you, I know.

Might be illustrative to learn that tho the camry only fleets to about 8%, 8% of 400K is NOT only a few hundred cars, like "8%" sounds like it might be. This is the inherant mislead that using only percentages brings.

Actually, the math that matters is GM's %, not Toyota's raw numbers. GM's fleet rate is somewhere north of 25%---Toyota or any other competitor taking advantage of GM's slow withdrawal (along w/Ford and Chrysler) from fleet fire sales is just common sense, whereas you're trying to paint it in a far more negative light. I work with lots of these co.'s regularly, so I'm confident when I state that Kia or Hyundai's foray into fleet hell is much more of an issue than Toyota's.

And, newsflash: Things are dire at GM. Part of the problem is you (nor they) seem to fully realize that. If anything I said were untrue, you (& almost everyone else) would be happy to point it out.

[gm4life]

I drove both an Equinox and a Torrent back to back. Then drove a Rav-4 for the hell-uva it and a CR-V for good measure. The Torrent has an FE2 ride and handling vs. the Equinoxs FE1 check the RPO codes out. The ride/handling difference, my preference of the dual kindney grille, silver interior trim and wheel options made the Torrent the only option. There are people who want a slightly more sporty car than a Chevrolet and would like a Pontiac. The Torrent is a nice "sporty being used lightly" CUV. I have no trouble justifing my purchase it was my money, and I choose to support GM. Why do people damn everyones purchases I could have just as easily bought the CR-V... If I got a Toyota on a GM forum I would understand but I got a GM car for god sakes. I have and will always put my money where my mouth is. Fact is if Pontiac wants any volume at all in the days of rising gas they need to take other models (FWD like G6 and G5 and take the Malibu and Cobalt) give them significant changes and a good rebadge with better handling and sporty styling that is all. It is very simple I have no problem with a G5 but I would like it to be more different from the Cobalt, same goes for the Torrent (still for me there were enough difference to justify the price indeed) also the Torrent fits more with Pontiac as a sporty small SUV (sporty being relative) than GMC. GMC means truck to me, sorry not a bad thing but that is what they are. A new G6 with FWD and 6spd. automatics and 4 and 6 cylinder engines and good styling and nice interior sold a slight premium over the Malibu makes sense as well. A few RWD cars a possible GTO (coupe G8), G8 ST, G8, G8 GXP. and G8 Safari along with the Solstice make sense to me and should be refreshed and redesigned as needed. Pontiac needs a balance of FWD for sales and consumers who want a sporty alternative to Chevy (again sporty is a relative word) and for performance guru's the G8/GTO and Solstice is there. I would do a GM engineered Vibe/HHR as well. Pontiac has a future starting with the new EP based G6. I am sick of defending my decision on a Torrent it offered the best value for my money and also wasn't a CUV I see every day one reason I like my Bonneville and Torrent, there aren't thousands running around every day within a mile of me like there are Impala's. People saying Pontiac should die or go all RWD are nuts given the dawn of these stupid cafe req. But performance mainstream with sporty styling and good handling is what Pontiac should and could be. I see lots of promise for them, I doubt I will get an Chevy next car around unless it was a Malibu or Silverado which I would get over a G6. Sorry but I feel silly defending why I got something isn't liking it enough? GM getting rid of Pontiac CUV is stupid unless you plan to replace the Torrent with something else and giving it to the "truck divison" makes no sence let the dealers whine and will get a Equinox rebadge again or just develope the two side by side from the get-go and make more noticable differences. I agree the Torrent and Equinox are alike but the ride and handling is a noticeable difference. Drive in a few. Trust me, I thank Croc for defending me and Pontiac, it was my money and yes I bought a "boring and pointless" FWD Pontiac CUV, but don't tell me it is not a realivant product or is stupid to offer it. The worst thing they can do is offer less choices for the consumer and lose sales to Toyota or others. Nixing models that were simple and affordable to revamp into a different enough product is stupid. Last time I checked Torrent sales have been good 30K a year which is enough to keep the model in my mind, that is 30K sales Pontiac wouldn't have had without it.

Edited May 10, 2008 by gm4life

[CARBIZ]

I'm not disputing the percentages, but they are -of course- extrapolated from actual quantities. Doesn't come off dire & dreadful enough for you, I know.

Might be illustrative to learn that tho the camry only fleets to about 8%, 8% of 400K is NOT only a few hundred cars, like "8%" sounds like it might be. This is the inherant mislead that using only percentages brings.

But Balthy, you forget yourself: after the G6s are fleeted, they are then scrapped. Nobody drives them. Avis and Tilden return them to GM after 6 or 8 months, and they are immediately scrapped. That's why these sales should not be counted. And, of course, GM makes no money on these sales, or om parts sales downstream.

So I guess the 40 or so 'daily rentals' that our lot sells every month are ghosts.

It's just this sort of myth that is propping up the illusion of Toyota's resale values.

[CARBIZ]

I drove both an Equinox and a Torrent back to back. Then drove a Rav-4 for the hell-uva it and a CR-V for good measure. The Torrent has an FE2 ride and handling vs. the Equinoxs FE1 check the RPO codes out. The ride/handling difference, my preference of the dual kindney grille, silver interior trim and wheel options made the Torrent the only option. There are people who want a slightly more sporty car than a Chevrolet and would like a Pontiac. The Torrent is a nice "sporty being used lightly" CUV. I have no trouble justifing my purchase it was my money, and I choose to support GM. Why do people damn everyones purchases I could have just as easily bought the CR-V... If I got a Toyota on a GM forum I would understand but I got a GM car for god sakes. I have and will always put my money where my mouth is. Fact is if Pontiac wants any volume at all in the days of rising gas they need to take other models (FWD like G6 and G5 and take the Malibu and Cobalt) give them significant changes and a good rebadge with better handling and sporty styling that is all. It is very simple I have no problem with a G5 but I would like it to be more different from the Cobalt, same goes for the Torrent (still for me there were enough difference to justify the price indeed) also the Torrent fits more with Pontiac as a sporty small SUV (sporty being relative) than GMC. GMC means truck to me, sorry not a bad thing but that is what they are. A new G6 with FWD and 6spd. automatics and 4 and 6 cylinder engines and good styling and nice interior sold a slight premium over the Malibu makes sense as well. A few RWD cars a possible GTO (coupe G8), G8 ST, G8, G8 GXP. and G8 Safari along with the Solstice make sense to me and should be refreshed and redesigned as needed. Pontiac needs a balance of FWD for sales and consumers who want a sporty alternative to Chevy (again sporty is a relative word) and for performance guru's the G8/GTO and Solstice is there. I would do a GM engineered Vibe/HHR as well. Pontiac has a future starting with the new EP based G6. I am sick of defending my decision on a Torrent it offered the best value for my money and also wasn't a CUV I see every day one reason I like my Bonneville and Torrent, there aren't thousands running around every day within a mile of me like there are Impala's. People saying Pontiac should die or go all RWD are nuts given the dawn of these stupid cafe req. But performance mainstream with sporty styling and good handling is what Pontiac should and could be. I see lots of promise for them, I doubt I will get an Chevy next car around unless it was a Malibu or Silverado which I would get over a G6. Sorry but I feel silly defending why I got something isn't liking it enough? GM getting rid of Pontiac CUV is stupid unless you plan to replace the Torrent with something else and giving it to the "truck divison" makes no sence let the dealers whine and will get a Equinox rebadge again or just develope the two side by side from the get-go and make more noticable differences. I agree the Torrent and Equinox are alike but the ride and handling is a noticeable difference. Drive in a few. Trust me, I thank Croc for defending me and Pontiac, it was my money and yes I bought a "boring and pointless" FWD Pontiac CUV, but don't tell me it is not a realivant product or is stupid to offer it. The worst thing they can do is offer less choices for the consumer and lose sales to Toyota or others. Nixing models that were simple and affordable to revamp into a different enough product is stupid. Last time I checked Torrent sales have been good 30K a year which is enough to keep the model in my mind, that is 30K sales Pontiac wouldn't have had without it.

Kudos for you and your choice, but at least Toyota and Honda don't cannabalize their own sales. Once the Torrent came out, our Equinox sales dropped substantially and the last sales stats I saw for Canada had Torrent sales running neck and neck with the 'Nox. It's this see sawing back and forth as one side of the empire gets the next great model and then the other that has to stop.

You ought to work on the sales floor when a customer innocently asks what the difference between a G5 and Cobalt is, or Sierra and Silverado. What am I supposed to say? I know the GMC guys try and say theirs is better. But they're not. They are the same damned vehicles, save a nose cap and orange dash lights. It is just silly. I'd like to see how many customers who get batted back and forth between a Chevy and GMC dealers just say 'f$%k it!' out of confusion and buy a Ford or Honda instead.

This isn't 1980. GM does not own 45% of the market. The average consumer does not have the knowledge that the average person on this site does. They either don't give a damn or will just do as they are told. Our own personal views don't factor in.

Gawd, some of these idiots think Chevrolet and Chrysler are the same damned thing.........................

[enzl]

But Balthy, you forget yourself: after the G6s are fleeted, they are then scrapped. Nobody drives them. Avis and Tilden return them to GM after 6 or 8 months, and they are immediately scrapped. That's why these sales should not be counted. And, of course, GM makes no money on these sales, or om parts sales downstream.

So I guess the 40 or so 'daily rentals' that our lot sells every month are ghosts.

It's just this sort of myth that is propping up the illusion of Toyota's resale values.

Again, selective fact disclosure:

If the fleeted G6's were scrapped, at least all of the Retail Customers (you know them, the one's who shelled out their hard-earned dough) wouldn't be taking another 10% hit on their trade value in the first year of ownership.

And, then, what happens? Those fleeted cars also become NEW car competition when re-released on dealer yards after fleet use, so GM competes with itself! (and why not, with the divisional structure already around their neck, huh?

GM has used the fleets to prop up unsaleable product, to keep union guys busy & to indirectly screw 'regular' customers for a long time.

Sheer genius 'Biz!

Resale Value is good old Adam Smith talking....and the sad thing is, you know that, yet you still choose to buy the party line. Whether Toyota resale is justified or not isn't the issue---how about worrying about GM's resale values, why they suck and how those 40 ex-rentals help YOU as a salesman, not GM?

If half the energy here went to helpful suggestions, you guys could probably help turn GM around. Instead, its incessant whining about how Toyota's stealing your lunch. 'Biz, at least have the courtesy to tell guys here you're just shooting from the hip with these misleading statements--most of the guys here don't work in the biz and take your 'info' as fact.

Edited May 10, 2008 by enzl

[Camino LS6]

I drove both an Equinox and a Torrent back to back. Then drove a Rav-4 for the hell-uva it and a CR-V for good measure. The Torrent has an FE2 ride and handling vs. the Equinoxs FE1 check the RPO codes out. The ride/handling difference, my preference of the dual kindney grille, silver interior trim and wheel options made the Torrent the only option. There are people who want a slightly more sporty car than a Chevrolet and would like a Pontiac. The Torrent is a nice "sporty being used lightly" CUV. I have no trouble justifing my purchase it was my money, and I choose to support GM. Why do people damn everyones purchases I could have just as easily bought the CR-V... If I got a Toyota on a GM forum I would understand but I got a GM car for god sakes. I have and will always put my money where my mouth is. Fact is if Pontiac wants any volume at all in the days of rising gas they need to take other models (FWD like G6 and G5 and take the Malibu and Cobalt) give them significant changes and a good rebadge with better handling and sporty styling that is all. It is very simple I have no problem with a G5 but I would like it to be more different from the Cobalt, same goes for the Torrent (still for me there were enough difference to justify the price indeed) also the Torrent fits more with Pontiac as a sporty small SUV (sporty being relative) than GMC. GMC means truck to me, sorry not a bad thing but that is what they are. A new G6 with FWD and 6spd. automatics and 4 and 6 cylinder engines and good styling and nice interior sold a slight premium over the Malibu makes sense as well. A few RWD cars a possible GTO (coupe G8), G8 ST, G8, G8 GXP. and G8 Safari along with the Solstice make sense to me and should be refreshed and redesigned as needed. Pontiac needs a balance of FWD for sales and consumers who want a sporty alternative to Chevy (again sporty is a relative word) and for performance guru's the G8/GTO and Solstice is there. I would do a GM engineered Vibe/HHR as well. Pontiac has a future starting with the new EP based G6. I am sick of defending my decision on a Torrent it offered the best value for my money and also wasn't a CUV I see every day one reason I like my Bonneville and Torrent, there aren't thousands running around every day within a mile of me like there are Impala's. People saying Pontiac should die or go all RWD are nuts given the dawn of these stupid cafe req. But performance mainstream with sporty styling and good handling is what Pontiac should and could be. I see lots of promise for them, I doubt I will get an Chevy next car around unless it was a Malibu or Silverado which I would get over a G6. Sorry but I feel silly defending why I got something isn't liking it enough? GM getting rid of Pontiac CUV is stupid unless you plan to replace the Torrent with something else and giving it to the "truck divison" makes no sence let the dealers whine and will get a Equinox rebadge again or just develope the two side by side from the get-go and make more noticable differences. I agree the Torrent and Equinox are alike but the ride and handling is a noticeable difference. Drive in a few. Trust me, I thank Croc for defending me and Pontiac, it was my money and yes I bought a "boring and pointless" FWD Pontiac CUV, but don't tell me it is not a realivant product or is stupid to offer it. The worst thing they can do is offer less choices for the consumer and lose sales to Toyota or others. Nixing models that were simple and affordable to revamp into a different enough product is stupid. Last time I checked Torrent sales have been good 30K a year which is enough to keep the model in my mind, that is 30K sales Pontiac wouldn't have had without it.

Please don't take this personally, or look at it as a criticism of your purchase, the qualities of the Torrent as a vehicle are not the issue. The issue is the identity of Pontiac as a whole going forward. In a crowded marketplace, tightly focused brands are an absolute requirement for GM, and a brand that sells both a G8 lineup and the Torrent and G5 is not a focused brand. Volume is no longer a mission Pontiac can, or should , have on its agenda.

A focused lineup of RWD (and possibly RWD biased AWD) cars is all that Pontiac should be doing. Each one needs to offer a performance edge above competitive product along with a distinct and consistent style. Pontiac should be the home of sporty, high performance cars within GM ( Corvette and Camaro excepted). The sooner this identity becomes consistent without the distraction of crossovers and entry-level sedans, the better. Only Chevrolet, of all of the brands, can ever be a true full-line brand in the current environment.

The rest of the brands need to have an extremely narrow focus. Do one thing, and do it well.

[hyperv6]

Please don't take this personally, or look at it as a criticism of your purchase, the qualities of the Torrent as a vehicle are not the issue. The issue is the identity of Pontiac as a whole going forward. In a crowded marketplace, tightly focused brands are an absolute requirement for GM, and a brand that sells both a G8 lineup and the Torrent and G5 is not a focused brand. Volume is no longer a mission Pontiac can, or should , have on its agenda.

A focused lineup of RWD (and possibly RWD biased AWD) cars is all that Pontiac should be doing. Each one needs to offer a performance edge above competitive product along with a distinct and consistent style. Pontiac should be the home of sporty, high performance cars within GM ( Corvette and Camaro excepted). The sooner this identity becomes consistent without the distraction of crossovers and entry-level sedans, the better. Only Chevrolet, of all of the brands, can ever be a true full-line brand in the current environment.

The rest of the brands need to have an extremely narrow focus. Do one thing, and do it well.

I think you should also qualify this too.

5-10 years ago Pontiac was also a full range dealer as they had to be. They had to offer all thing to all people.

Today with GM tring to reduce the models but keep brands alive it has given the gift to Pontiac to be able to focus on 4-5 cars at best and make them the performance brand they want and aspire to be. Let Buick and GMC take up the SUV and low end Luxury market.

The negitive side is we get less Pontiac models but on the up side we get more focused and more real performance grade cars that live closer to the Pontiac image they have always aspired too.

Pontiac is more like Cadillac in a way as it no longer has the need to be a high volume brand and a be all it can be brand.

GM is getting to be like a Mechanic with a box of specific tools for every job in the right drawer doing the right job the right way. When in the past GM and Pontiac had become like like a Multi Tool or vise grips where it did all the jobs but only have assed.

GM right now can do what many other car companys can't and that is to focus brands to specific markets. Other companies with only 2-3 brands have to more far reaching and more deluted. GM's past weakness can now become a advantaged if mangaged correctly.

I have always prefered to use the correct too for the Job and with the new Gm models it is more reflecting that.

The only FWD suited for Pontiac would be a Cobalt/HHR SS based Mini Cooper type cars for the low end. Having driven the HHR Turbo SS I can say a small FWD Cooper like car would fit the Pontiac grade. But no plain jane G5 cars that shadow the Cobalt. A Pontaic FWD would have to be special and not a rebadged Canadian Pontiac Chevy. This car would share a platform but not the body or styling.

The only thing wrong with the Torrent is it is not a Pontiac. It is nothing but a rebadged Chevy just as the G5 is. A good Chevy but not a Performance imaged Pontiac. Fancy Chevys do not make Pontiac's.

Camino has the right idea and I can see he understands where Lutz is going. Change can be tough to take but once you get thorugh the transformation and see the results all will be much happier.

After reading Mr De Lorenzo rant. I can see he understands some of where GM is going but he only sees a part of the full picture. Once the plan all comes together we will be fine. The G8 was not the car expected to save Pontiac but it was the second step after the Solstice. The car the replaces the G6 is the key car that will define Pontiac. Lutz came too late to do much there so he will make his mark on the next one.

With every new model GM brings out it is one step back. They have had few misses under Lutz.

Edited May 10, 2008 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

Great post, Hyper!

Getting GM to follow this simple logic is the the worry.

It is such a no-brainer, but some on the inside can't see the forest for the trees.

[ToniCipriani]

Didn't know they scrap G6s like that... I know quite a few people who drive ex-rental G6s.

[enzl]

Didn't know they scrap G6s like that... I know quite a few people who drive ex-rental G6s.

They don't. He was being facetious.

And, I'm sure you know plenty...they're the smart ones who didn't take a $5,000 haircut buying one new...which was exactly my point...

Just so I'm not all bad news: The new, focused Pontiac discussed above is spot on. There's nothing wrong with today's Pontiac that can't be fixed with greater focus. There's simply no need to place 2 full-line marques in one showroom already packed with trucks.

Edited May 10, 2008 by enzl

[ToniCipriani]

Well I bought mine new, and yes, everyone around me calls me an idiot to pay 30k for an American, but honestly I don't give a crap. I'm planning to keep my car, not reselling it.

[The O.C.]

I'm not disputing the percentages, but they are -of course- extrapolated from actual quantities. Doesn't come off dire & dreadful enough for you, I know.

Might be illustrative to learn that tho the camry only fleets to about 8%, 8% of 400K is NOT only a few hundred cars, like "8%" sounds like it might be. This is the inherant mislead that using only percentages brings.

(Edit: Sorry I missed that Enzl already addressed this.)

GAWD you are TOTALLY missing the POINT!

If Camry fleets are only 8%, then that means 92% of the people that buy a Camry.....choose to buy a Camry!!!!!!

If Grand Prix is still up around 75%, that means only a 1/4 of the people in a Grand Prix actually chose to buy one themselves.

I'd say, in comparison, that IS "dire and dreadful."

Edited May 10, 2008 by The O.C.

[The O.C.]

Please don't take this personally, or look at it as a criticism of your purchase, the qualities of the Torrent as a vehicle are not the issue. The issue is the identity of Pontiac as a whole going forward. In a crowded marketplace, tightly focused brands are an absolute requirement for GM, and a brand that sells both a G8 lineup and the Torrent and G5 is not a focused brand. Volume is no longer a mission Pontiac can, or should , have on its agenda.

A focused lineup of RWD (and possibly RWD biased AWD) cars is all that Pontiac should be doing. Each one needs to offer a performance edge above competitive product along with a distinct and consistent style. Pontiac should be the home of sporty, high performance cars within GM ( Corvette and Camaro excepted). The sooner this identity becomes consistent without the distraction of crossovers and entry-level sedans, the better. Only Chevrolet, of all of the brands, can ever be a true full-line brand in the current environment.

The rest of the brands need to have an extremely narrow focus. Do one thing, and do it well.

Agreed.

If Pontiac had an SUV that truly defined "sporty", a la Cayenne to Porsche (not that I'm a fan of Cayenne, just seems a good comparison) or X5 to BMW.....then you might be able to make a case for it.

However, it probably doesn't make sense for GM to spend the massive amount of money that would be needed to create such drastic differentiation from the Equinox.

(Additionally, I'd be curious to see the actual spring and damper rates, shock, and anti-roll bar specs between the Equinox "FE1" and the Torrent "FE2" to see what the REAL difference is. I'd bet the actual difference between the two suspension setups is very marginal, or even none. GM has been known to use the "FE1, FE2, FE3" suspension designations liberally for marketing terms. I know from my Buick days......what might have been an "FE3" or more commonly known as "Gran Touring Suspension" setup for a particular Buick was labled "FE1" or "base" for a Pontiac.....with no actual differences in the suspension tuning.....say LeSabre to Bonneville, etc.)

[The O.C.]

The negitive side is we get less Pontiac models but on the up side we get more focused and more real performance grade cars that live closer to the Pontiac image they have always aspired too.

You made some good points in your post......however, the problem with your statement above.....is.....that we don't have more "focused" and more "real performance grade" cars at Pontiac.

We have ONE focused Pontiac.....the G8.

You might count Solstice.....but even that car shares an almost identical sister at Saturn.

So.....count it one point for the G8.....and maybe a 1/2 point for the Targa version of the Solstice (as long as it remains the only one.)

Anything else in the future for Pontiac is still conjecture on all of our parts right now.

[Robert Hall]

You made some good points in your post......however, the problem with your statement above.....is.....that we don't have more "focused" and more "real performance grade" cars at Pontiac.

We have ONE focused Pontiac.....the G8.

You might count Solstice.....but even that car shares an almost identical sister at Saturn.

So.....count it one point for the G8.....and maybe a 1/2 point for the Targa version of the Solstice (as long as it remains the only one.)

Anything else in the future for Pontiac is still conjecture on all of our parts right now.

True...the G8 and Solstice are the only Pontiacs currently that embody a 'Pontiac spirit' and are worthwhile, IMHO..the rest of the line is just rental car filler, IMHO...

[The O.C.]

True...the G8 and Solstice are the only Pontiacs currently that embody a 'Pontiac spirit' and are worthwhile, IMHO..the rest of the line is just rental car filler, IMHO...

You know who I think has done a pretty decent job (not perfect, but pretty good) with this is the VW Group, specifically in Europe....where they have more brands.

You have VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat, Bentley, Lamborghini.

There's certainly some overlap in regards to powertrains, switchgear, and the like.....but I think they've done a quite masterful job of building the individual brands and positioning themselves in the marketplace.

One thing helping them over there is that in Europe, Audi is positioned, and mostly received by the market, as an A-tier luxury brand right next to BMW and Mercedes. (Over here, it holds a place in the market a step-below.....which can cloud it's positioning versus VW here a little bit more.)

[Camino LS6]

I think that it is worthy of note that such divergent viewpoints as my own, enzl's, O.C.'s, Hyper's, and Moltar's all reflect the same basic strategy for Pontiac.

This is quite do-able, and the obvious solution to the issue for not only Pontiac, but as a template for the entire GMNA lineup. Tight, focused, brands with easily recognized identities are what's required for GM to re-establish itself in the market.

The tough choices that need to be made are tied to placing a given product under the most appropriate brand - every time.

Moving Torrent to GMC is an example of the right sort of thinking along these lines. A tougher example would be stopping Sky production and leaving Kappa to Pontiac exclusively in North America. I really like the Sky, but it doesn't belong at Saturn and it compromises Pontiac in a very real and parasitic way.

[regfootball]

here's where I'd go with pontiac in the next 3 years

g8- on global large rwd with awd option. v6, turbo v6, v8, include wagon, add manual to v6 mix

g6- preferably on alpha with awd option, 4, 4 turbo, v6, v6 turbo, manual available on some versions, dsg type also available on some models. sedan and coupe and convertible. maybe an eps 2, if need be. this is pontiac's volume car.

g4- premium delta, awd optional, 4 and 4 turbo. limited numbers. maybe sedan or hatch only.

g3 solstice / solstice coupe on alpha embarass the boxster at 1/3 or 1/2 the price

g7/gto- bring that baby over, there is no excuses for gm not to do it. limited numbers

vibe- pontiac needs one sport hatch crossover although something more in line with the cx-7 (except actually nice). the current vibe sells but i think it needs to be a saturn or chevy. limited numbers

then you basically cycle each model, one all new per year on new and current platforms and engines. is it that hard, GM?

maybe to generate brand interest, pontiac should start selling sport bikes.

Edited May 10, 2008 by regfootball

[The O.C.]

A tougher example would be stopping Sky production and leaving Kappa to Pontiac exclusively in North America. I really like the Sky, but it doesn't belong at Saturn and it compromises Pontiac in a very real and parasitic way.

I'll tell you the bigger problem.....is what does SATURN stand for?

Let's say Pontiac is the epitomy of "We Build Excitement" for General Motors.

Well then.....how do you justify a SKY that is almost identical, with identical performance and driving feel? How do you justify an AURA that runs rings around it's (older-platform) sister-mate the G6?

If Pontiac is the "excitement" or "performance" division......Chevy is the "basic" division......and Buick is "American luxury".....and Cadillac chases the high-end imports.....where does that leave Saturn?

Don't tell me Saturn is for the import-intender. That's bullcrap. Because today, I don't care if you are Chevy or whatever.....if you don't build cars that appeal to import consumers (like the Malibu apparently does) then you are heading down a slippery slope to nowhere.

The concept of a domestic car-company/division existing simply to attract import-buyers is about 20 years too old.

Saturn.....really.....has NO identity.

[Camino LS6]

I'll tell you the bigger problem.....is what does SATURN stand for?

Let's say Pontiac is the epitomy of "We Build Excitement" for General Motors.

Well then.....how do you justify a SKY that is almost identical, with identical performance and driving feel? How do you justify an AURA that runs rings around it's (older-platform) sister-mate the G6?

If Pontiac is the "excitement" or "performance" division......Chevy is the "basic" division......and Buick is "American luxury".....and Cadillac chases the high-end imports.....where does that leave Saturn?

Don't tell me Saturn is for the import-intender. That's bullcrap. Because today, I don't care if you are Chevy or whatever.....if you don't build cars that appeal to import consumers (like the Malibu apparently does) then you are heading down a slippery slope to nowhere.

The concept of a domestic car-company/division existing simply to attract import-buyers is about 20 years too old.

Saturn.....really.....has NO identity.

Can't argue with that.

The only niche that jumps to mind for Saturn would be the "European -flavored" division.

Moving the G6 to Alpha solves the Aura issue.

[Blake Noble]

The only niche that jumps to mind for Saturn would be the "European -flavored" division.

But then where does that leave Saab?

Saturn should be positioned as a step-up from Chevrolet and a step down from Buick. Just like the Oldsmobile division it intends to supplement/replace.

It still should offer European design and quality however.

Pontiac is not a good step-up from Chevrolet. As such, it indeed does not belong in a sales channel with Buick and GMC.

I believe I am now starting to see the thinking behind replacing Pontiac in that particular sales channel. You start out with Chevrolet, step up to Saturn, step up to Buick (or GMC), then step up to Cadillac.

But the division should not be killed-off totally. Pair it with some other division. Saab perhaps? Saab, Hummer, and Pontiac would actually make a nice sales division, a sales division for the niche brands. Chevrolet and Cadillac should stand alone. Then you should have Buick, Saturn, and GMC in another sales channel as the mid-ground between Chevrolet and Cadillac, the "book-end divisions."

Simple fix.

Moving the G6 to Alpha solves the Aura issue.

Indeed it does.

Edited May 10, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

But then where does that leave Saab?

Saturn should be positioned as a step-up from Chevrolet and a step down from Buick. Just like the Oldsmobile division it intends to supplement/replace.

It still should be "Euro-flavored" however.

Pontiac is not a good step-up from Chevrolet. As such, it indeed does not belong in a sales channel with Buick and GMC.

I believe I am now starting to see the thinking behind replacing Pontiac in that particular sales channel. You start out with Chevrolet, step up to Saturn, step up to Buick (or GMC), then step up to Cadillac.

But the division should not be killed-off totally. Pair it with some other division. Saab perhaps? Saab, Hummer, and Pontiac would actually make a nice sales division, a sales division for the niche brands. Chevrolet and Cadillac should stand alone. Then you should have Buick, Saturn, and GMC in another sales channel as the mid-ground between Chevrolet and Cadillac, the "book-end divisions."

Simple fix.

Indeed it does.

I'd sooner kill Saab and/or Saturn than move Pontiac (again).

If I were dealing with all brands as full 'Divisions", I might have grouped them in a different way. But given what now exists, I would not move Pontiac again nor replace it with Saturn in the B-P-G channel.

One could make the argument that a performance-oriented Pontiac would make a nice fit sharing space with an upscale-performance Cadillac. Pontiac as a modern LaSalle, if you will.

[Blake Noble]

I'd sooner kill Saab and/or Saturn than move Pontiac (again).

If I were dealing with all brands as full 'Divisions", I might have grouped them in a different way. But given what now exists, I would not move Pontiac again nor replace it with Saturn in the B-P-G channel.

I would like to keep things as they were back around this time last year personally, before new CAFE laws had to step in and scare the $h! out of GM. Everything was looking great and we were getting handed the best ideas GM had to offer. Now we are left holding the bag regarding a lot of things, and it looks that Pontiac might just be one of those reasons why.

But now I am basically seeing only two options regarding Pontiac: move it ... or lose it. If PCS's posts regarding Pontiac are any indication of the train of thought between members of GM top brass, we could indeed run the risk of seeing Pontiac being muscled out of GM entirely.

I do not want to see Pontiac being handed a slow, suffocating death through product starvation.

So, if GM is being serious about silently deep-sixing the performance division of its empire, I propose that they move it again instead, so that we get to keep our performance alternative.

It is better than no Pontiac at all.

Plus, I see that grouping it in with Saab and Hummer, GM's niche brands that really are not expected to be volume sellers, allows Pontiac the chance to not divert from its performance-minded mission. Saab and Hummer are two of the more focused, more limited-appeal brands within GM ... and such would be true of a no-holds-barred performance Pontiac division. It wouldn't appeal to everyone and would maintain a strict focus.

One could make the argument that a performance-oriented Pontiac would make a nice fit sharing space with an upscale-performance Cadillac. Pontiac as a modern LaSalle, if you will.

This is an idea that I like, as well.

Edited May 10, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

I have to go, but I just had a thought.

What if Pontiac became a sort of "Shadow brand" available at any GM dealership featuring performance versions of many GM platforms? The name would then represent something entirely new, a hybrid of GMPD and HSV with all products wearing, and worthy of, the Arrowhead.

Just trying to think around things in a new way.

For the record, I am still in favor of GM actually following through and turning Pontiac into a legitimate performance brand within B-P-G using only RWD and AWD to do it. That plan is valid, and remains untried AFAIC.

[regfootball]

chevy = toyota hyundai, kia, ford, dodge (but better in all repsects)

saturn = honda, vw, mitsubishi, subaru, mazda, nissan, more affordable acura

buick = lincoln, chrysler, more affordable lexus, more affordable mercedes, more affordable audi, more affordable infiniti

pontiac = cars oriented to performance yet attainable, cost effective BMW, refined capable cars at good price

saab = green weirdo offbeat leftie liberal cars that also can perform like jets, ikea, etc.

hummer = they'll figure it out just not too many models please

GMC = refined quality trucks

cadillac - competes with world's top tier.

[Croc]

chevy = toyota hyundai, kia, ford, dodge (but better in all repsects)

saturn = honda, vw, mitsubishi, subaru, mazda, nissan, more affordable acura

buick = lincoln, chrysler, more affordable lexus, more affordable mercedes, more affordable audi, more affordable infiniti

pontiac = cars oriented to performance yet attainable, cost effective BMW, refined capable cars at good price

saab = green weirdo offbeat leftie liberal cars that also can perform like jets, ikea, etc.

hummer = they'll figure it out just not too many models please

GMC = refined quality trucks

cadillac - competes with world's top tier.

Hello, Alfred Sloane.

[balthazar]

Sloan's model eliminated price overlap when instituted, which cleaned up & streamlined a dangerously chaotic GM in the early '20s. Bearing in mind that that was the cornerstone of Sloan's heirarchy... as soon as multiple interdivisional pricing overlaps came into being --and this started in the late '50s BTW-- the Sloan model was no longer being followed. Sloan retired in 1956.

Some think it was still in effect in the '80s and '90s.

[CARBIZ]

Again, selective fact disclosure:

If the fleeted G6's were scrapped, at least all of the Retail Customers (you know them, the one's who shelled out their hard-earned dough) wouldn't be taking another 10% hit on their trade value in the first year of ownership.

And, then, what happens? Those fleeted cars also become NEW car competition when re-released on dealer yards after fleet use, so GM competes with itself! (and why not, with the divisional structure already around their neck, huh?

GM has used the fleets to prop up unsaleable product, to keep union guys busy & to indirectly screw 'regular' customers for a long time.

Sheer genius 'Biz!

Resale Value is good old Adam Smith talking....and the sad thing is, you know that, yet you still choose to buy the party line. Whether Toyota resale is justified or not isn't the issue---how about worrying about GM's resale values, why they suck and how those 40 ex-rentals help YOU as a salesman, not GM?

If half the energy here went to helpful suggestions, you guys could probably help turn GM around. Instead, its incessant whining about how Toyota's stealing your lunch. 'Biz, at least have the courtesy to tell guys here you're just shooting from the hip with these misleading statements--most of the guys here don't work in the biz and take your 'info' as fact.

That's why I like leasing, my friend: it's the great equalizer. As long as a Cobalt is $15-25 a month cheaper than a similarly equipped Corolla, and doing an A-B comparison works out the same between them, it kind of lays rest to the imports hold their value better myth. We used to do the comparisons between Chevys and Toyotas at my old store, and in no way shape or form was a Toyota a better deal. Their shop rate was $10 an hour higher, their scheduled maintenance was higher, their interest rates higher, but yeah, there 'residuals' were higher, too. It's going to get worse for Toyota, too, now that their sales are stagnant, they've had a few bad reports in the hallowed CR and soon they will have the used car fleets flooded with trade ins. It couldn't continue forever.

We've beaten this subject to death before, you and I: nobody in their right mind would trade in a 2 or 3 year old car anyway. By years 5 or 6, the costs of owning a Toyota have really piled up, so I would hope their vehicles were worth more, because you just spend a helluva lot more driving them for the past few years.

Again, I never have pretended to be an expert, and I certainly can only speak for the way things are up in the Great White North, but considering GM has 12% market share in the Greater Toronto Area, I suspect market conditions are the same in these five million people as they are in your locale. I do, however, deal with wholesalers and customers every day, so I know what the market is doing today, not last week or last month.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Sloan's model eliminated price overlap when instituted, which cleaned up & streamlined a dangerously chaotic GM in the early '20s. Bearing in mind that that was the cornerstone of Sloan's heirarchy... as soon as multiple interdivisional pricing overlaps came into being --and this started in the late '50s BTW-- the Sloan model was no longer being followed. Sloan retired in 1956.

Some think it was still in effect in the '80s and '90s.

GM needs to eliminate price overlap once again between the divisions.

[Robert Hall]

GM needs to eliminate price overlap once again between the divisions.

Yes...they seem to be on the path to eliminating model overlap... one thing that hurt GM in the '80s-90s was the endless look-alike generic FWD mediocremobiles that seemed to have no substantive differences across the CBOP brands...they have a come a long way from that.

[Argen]

GM does need to eliminate price overlap between divisions, but it is easier said than done. When they still used the Sloan system effectively in the early 50s, each division had very few models. Sure they had different names, but most of the cars in any given division were based off of a single chasis with only a couple of engines. Chevy had many different bodystyles, but they were essantially variations on the same car. That way each "model" was closely priced with the others in a division. It helped keep the price bands for each division narrow enough to have the ladder of companies that GM wanted consumers to climb. The first real blow to the Sloan system was the car that many GMers swear by now: the corvette. It coast nearly as much as a Buick, and when it came out every division above Chevy threw a fit about it. The original Impala was another severe blow, and really made Cadillac angry. By the time the GM compacts (Corvair, Tempest, Special, F-85) came along the range of cars for each divison was making it difficult to maintain strict price bands.

But back then it was just fine. GM had half of the market, so even though the system didn't make sense they didn't have many competitors. Chrysler was going through a similar problem as Dodge and Plymouth started stepping on each others' toes for the lower end of the market. Ford managed to keep things straighter, but they only had three companies and still had the occasional overlap. The point is that if you want several brands to have distinct price ranges, then they need to have a limited number of models for each division. The other option is what Toyota has done and what Ford is trying to get back to: only a couple of brands with wider price bands and more models.

The only real company to have many different brands and keep their prices separate is VW, but that's because some of their divisions (Porsche, Bentley, Lamborghini, Audi) are in vastly different ranges of price.

[thegriffon]

You forget Skoda and Seat, which do overlap with VW, and in Europe, even Audi (for the same size models).

[enzl]

That's why I like leasing, my friend: it's the great equalizer. As long as a Cobalt is $15-25 a month cheaper than a similarly equipped Corolla, and doing an A-B comparison works out the same between them, it kind of lays rest to the imports hold their value better myth. We used to do the comparisons between Chevys and Toyotas at my old store, and in no way shape or form was a Toyota a better deal. Their shop rate was $10 an hour higher, their scheduled maintenance was higher, their interest rates higher, but yeah, there 'residuals' were higher, too. It's going to get worse for Toyota, too, now that their sales are stagnant, they've had a few bad reports in the hallowed CR and soon they will have the used car fleets flooded with trade ins. It couldn't continue forever.

We've beaten this subject to death before, you and I: nobody in their right mind would trade in a 2 or 3 year old car anyway. By years 5 or 6, the costs of owning a Toyota have really piled up, so I would hope their vehicles were worth more, because you just spend a helluva lot more driving them for the past few years.

Again, I never have pretended to be an expert, and I certainly can only speak for the way things are up in the Great White North, but considering GM has 12% market share in the Greater Toronto Area, I suspect market conditions are the same in these five million people as they are in your locale. I do, however, deal with wholesalers and customers every day, so I know what the market is doing today, not last week or last month.

Successfully evading the huge hole in your logic:

Most b/c class customers don't lease...and, many 1st time buyers grow out of their purchase within a few years. A few hundred in maintenance costs doesn't bridge a $2-4k resale advantage for a Civic or Corolla customer. And most people would gladly pay .50-$1/day not to drive a Cobalt.

Wishing Toyota bad doesn't make GM better--but, that logic also doesn't exist in the Great White North either, apparently. Keep hoping they slip like GM has...there's ample evidence their careful march to the top (Toyota's have outsold Chevy & Ford in the US so far this year) has been sloppy & lucky.

[hyperv6]

You made some good points in your post......however, the problem with your statement above.....is.....that we don't have more "focused" and more "real performance grade" cars at Pontiac.

We have ONE focused Pontiac.....the G8.

You might count Solstice.....but even that car shares an almost identical sister at Saturn.

So.....count it one point for the G8.....and maybe a 1/2 point for the Targa version of the Solstice (as long as it remains the only one.)

Anything else in the future for Pontiac is still conjecture on all of our parts right now.

You also have to consider the timing and replacment of Pontiac lines.

The G8 and Solstice are only the first two steps toward a focused line up. We also would have a G8 coupe to add if not for CAFE. I believe we had more in the pipe line before the Cafe Challange came about.

Pontiac also has taken the lead on getting the SUV's out of the way.

I would give the Targa a full point as it is a step in good faith for Pontiac to move ahead and not only give us a coupe but a targa at that. Again special product only for Pontiac and the US market.

The key still lies with the G6 replacment. Will it be special and a true Pontiac in the American market or will it again be a rebaged Malibu?

The rebuilding of Pontiac will not be wasy or will it be quick. It will be done model at a time. The thing that will permit this is the fact it is rolled into Buick which also in the rebuild mode one model at a time.

By rolling Buick, Pontiac and GMC into the same group they will not only play to their strengths they will also buy time to repair a lot of damage. As of now even if they killed off Pontiac they would still be spending as much on the Buick line as they are going to be spending with Pontiac and Buick.

When we think Pontiac we still need to and should think performance. But now It is important that the old time Pontiac Enthusiast reset his old image of Pontiac as they need to move forward into what performance is in the present market and not what it was in the 60's and 70's.

The Muscle Car is dead and has been dead for years and now it is a performance car. It must turn, stop, and accelerate well. It also is not required to have a big engine or V8. RWD is a must as would at least one AWD. I also see a place for one FWD but it must be the best in it's field and nothing less.

Pontiac needs to adopt the standards of the GM Performance Division for all models and nothing less. I woulod see nothing wrong if they even gave control to John Heinrency and his group to over see all of Pontiac's models and not just the GXP line. With 4 strong models it would not be impossible for them to do. GM PD still could tune the SS and V cars but Pontiac could be their own line as in the Benz black series.

[Blake Noble]

Pontiac needs to adopt the standards of the GM Performance Division for all models and nothing less. I woulod see nothing wrong if they even gave control to John Heinrency and his group to over see all of Pontiac's models and not just the GXP line.

Agreed, 110 percent.

[The O.C.]

You forget Skoda and Seat, which do overlap with VW, and in Europe, even Audi (for the same size models).

.....yet are nicely differentiated from their VW and Audi cousins......unlike Cobalt/G5, Malibu/AURA, etc., etc.

[The O.C.]

You also have to consider the timing and replacment of Pontiac lines.

The G8 and Solstice are only the first two steps toward a focused line up. We also would have a G8 coupe to add if not for CAFE. I believe we had more in the pipe line before the Cafe Challange came about.

Pontiac also has taken the lead on getting the SUV's out of the way.

I would give the Targa a full point as it is a step in good faith for Pontiac to move ahead and not only give us a coupe but a targa at that. Again special product only for Pontiac and the US market.

The key still lies with the G6 replacment. Will it be special and a true Pontiac in the American market or will it again be a rebaged Malibu?

The rebuilding of Pontiac will not be wasy or will it be quick. It will be done model at a time. The thing that will permit this is the fact it is rolled into Buick which also in the rebuild mode one model at a time.

By rolling Buick, Pontiac and GMC into the same group they will not only play to their strengths they will also buy time to repair a lot of damage. As of now even if they killed off Pontiac they would still be spending as much on the Buick line as they are going to be spending with Pontiac and Buick.

When we think Pontiac we still need to and should think performance. But now It is important that the old time Pontiac Enthusiast reset his old image of Pontiac as they need to move forward into what performance is in the present market and not what it was in the 60's and 70's.

The Muscle Car is dead and has been dead for years and now it is a performance car. It must turn, stop, and accelerate well. It also is not required to have a big engine or V8. RWD is a must as would at least one AWD. I also see a place for one FWD but it must be the best in it's field and nothing less.

Pontiac needs to adopt the standards of the GM Performance Division for all models and nothing less. I woulod see nothing wrong if they even gave control to John Heinrency and his group to over see all of Pontiac's models and not just the GXP line. With 4 strong models it would not be impossible for them to do. GM PD still could tune the SS and V cars but Pontiac could be their own line as in the Benz black series.

Hence again my statement that anything past G8 and Solstice is 100% conjecture at this point. "What's the G6 replacement gonna be like? Will it be RWD or FWD? Will the next G5 be another rebaged Cobalt?" Etc, etc..

You may have one BPG distribution channel.....but you are going to still have to build and enhance three separate images/marketing messages/brand perceptions.......one for performance, one for luxury, and one for trucks/SUVs.

You may have less models per brand, but you still have three brands. Pontiac is going to need ALL the help they can get with their (reduced) product line. One-third the marketing/development money won't cut it......GM can't do that.

[CARBIZ]

Successfully evading the huge hole in your logic:

Most b/c class customers don't lease...and, many 1st time buyers grow out of their purchase within a few years. A few hundred in maintenance costs doesn't bridge a $2-4k resale advantage for a Civic or Corolla customer. And most people would gladly pay .50-$1/day not to drive a Cobalt.

Wishing Toyota bad doesn't make GM better--but, that logic also doesn't exist in the Great White North either, apparently. Keep hoping they slip like GM has...there's ample evidence their careful march to the top (Toyota's have outsold Chevy & Ford in the US so far this year) has been sloppy & lucky.

Well, you have your reality and I have mine. It isn't a matter of 'wishing Toyota bad:' now that they are in the big leagues, they are finding big league problems, is all. Considering the Corolla is 'all new' for this year and it has barely passed the Cobalt and still not caught up to the Mazda 3, is only another indication of how befuddled the masses truly have become, the fact that they are buying them at all. On the whole, the debate about which vehicle is 'class leading' doesn't concern me as much as which purchase is not going to f$#K over my neighbors the quickest. I consider Americans to be my neighbors, although a lot of Canadians would sooner see GM die because they are 'just another import anyway.' So, all things being (nearly) equal, I would buy a GM, Ford or Chrysler over ANY import, period. But that is me. Maybe I am wrong, and maybe I am not, but I can sleep at night because I know that I am doing my best to keep my neighbors in jobs - not just this week, but for the next couple decades. I could have gone over to the 'dark side,' and maybe it would have been easier, but I would never work for Toyota, nor any import company, because to me there are more important things than a quick buck.

Still, Toyota's success on this side of the Pacific would not have been nearly so assured, had thousands of people not willingly sold their souls to the Devil, so to speak. It is interesting the number of people who are willing to sell their own neighbors, countrymen, whatever, out just to make a few bucks. Is that the American way?

I guess the next year or so will tell all. I still believe in the adage "what is good for General Motors is good for (North) America." Is it merely a coincidence that General Motors' slide downward over the past 15-20 years has paralleled that of the pre-eminence of the U.S.A.? Just asking, is all.

If we're all in this for a quick buck, then screw it all, and let's just party!

[balthazar]

>>"...The first real blow to the Sloan system was the car that many GMers swear by now: the corvette. It coast nearly as much as a Buick, and when it came out every division above Chevy threw a fit about it. The original Impala was another severe blow, and really made Cadillac angry."<<

Corvette is not legitimate- even tho it did eclipse 10 out of 13 Buicks in price for '53, it was of course too vastly different in every respect to every other division's models. No competition there.

I do not even believe the other divisions threw any sort of "fit" in NOT getting their respective 2-seat concepts for production (Wildcat, Bonneville Special, F-88, LeMans); I've never read anything that attests to these being primary goals for the divisions; they were all, to the last, more than occupied with continually rising production and their own limited big dollar series (Skylark, Fiesta, Eldorado).

Impala came no where near Cadillac's price range ($2693 for the V-8 vs. $4784 for a Series 62 coupe)- there was no issue there. While the Impy did overlap the lower priced series' from PMD, it didn't even overlap the next tier, the '58 Olds Dynamic 88 ($2772).

In other words, the break from the Model was not that drastic or sudden (Chevy elbowing Cadillac).

One instance where Cadillac did register it's displeasure was the Buick Limited Series of the early '40s; there BMD offered custom coachwork and did overlap the lower Cadillacs in price, and this practice was halted after only a few years by Corporate.

I do agree that the introduction of the A-Body cars (Tempest, F-85, Special) undoubtedly accelerated the end of the Sloan Model- their price tags were very close. They were also the first instance of inter-divisional engine swapping, the Begining of the End, IMHO.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I like your sig balthazar.

[balthazar]

>>"When we think Pontiac we still need to and should think performance. But now It is important that the old time Pontiac Enthusiast reset his old image of Pontiac as they need to move forward into what performance is in the present market and not what it was in the 60's and 70's."<<

Again and again (and again) you post this sentiment. Where have you found that current Pontiac shoppers are asking for '60s PMD- from a handful of '04-06 GTO wannabuyers? Is there something in the current portfolio you feel is an unjust throwback (hood scoops on the G8 perhaps?)

Far better that Pontiac utilize some of it's heritage from the '60s than anything that came afterward. And if the '60s is no longer important or worth remembering- why should Pontiac bother retaining any image of performance, if not to launch from that heritage?

Mercedes, after buying the rights to the maybach name, promptly whipped up a website synopsis of maybach's '21-40 history, even tho that was a TOTALLY unrelated & independant company's history they absconded with. Did M-B happen to believe that long-ago, unrelated heritage would have some bearing on '0x maybach shoppers.... I wonder. At least Pontiac, if indeed it's actually doing so, it looking at it's own history.

[regfootball]

Hence again my statement that anything past G8 and Solstice is 100% conjecture at this point. "What's the G6 replacement gonna be like? Will it be RWD or FWD? Will the next G5 be another rebaged Cobalt?" Etc, etc..

You may have one BPG distribution channel.....but you are going to still have to build and enhance three separate images/marketing messages/brand perceptions.......one for performance, one for luxury, and one for trucks/SUVs.

You may have less models per brand, but you still have three brands. Pontiac is going to need ALL the help they can get with their (reduced) product line. One-third the marketing/development money won't cut it......GM can't do that.

plain and simple if gm is commited to all the brands (because they are too spendy to kill for one reason) then the fault lies with not spending enough for proper marketing. this is a managment decision. its also a fault to not have proper produc development dollars.

if gm wasn't buying off the unions and such, they'd maybe have the dough to do it but really its simply managment not realizing that they by nature must spend more for all that overhead if that have that many brands.

then they have to find the cash to do it. anything else is half assed and 'no wonder why it fails'.

all these brands, it can be done. they just aint doing it right.

look at hamburger helper. there is like 50 different kinds of hambuger helper. that has to be a pretty massive promotion effort compared to say 'kraft mac and cheese'. but if you want to sell 50 different hamburger helper that is what is required. skirting doing it the proper way speeds up failure.

Edited May 11, 2008 by regfootball

[enzl]

Well, you have your reality and I have mine. It isn't a matter of 'wishing Toyota bad:' now that they are in the big leagues, they are finding big league problems, is all. Considering the Corolla is 'all new' for this year and it has barely passed the Cobalt and still not caught up to the Mazda 3, is only another indication of how befuddled the masses truly have become, the fact that they are buying them at all. On the whole, the debate about which vehicle is 'class leading' doesn't concern me as much as which purchase is not going to f$#K over my neighbors the quickest. I consider Americans to be my neighbors, although a lot of Canadians would sooner see GM die because they are 'just another import anyway.' So, all things being (nearly) equal, I would buy a GM, Ford or Chrysler over ANY import, period. But that is me. Maybe I am wrong, and maybe I am not, but I can sleep at night because I know that I am doing my best to keep my neighbors in jobs - not just this week, but for the next couple decades. I could have gone over to the 'dark side,' and maybe it would have been easier, but I would never work for Toyota, nor any import company, because to me there are more important things than a quick buck.

Still, Toyota's success on this side of the Pacific would not have been nearly so assured, had thousands of people not willingly sold their souls to the Devil, so to speak. It is interesting the number of people who are willing to sell their own neighbors, countrymen, whatever, out just to make a few bucks. Is that the American way?

I guess the next year or so will tell all. I still believe in the adage "what is good for General Motors is good for (North) America." Is it merely a coincidence that General Motors' slide downward over the past 15-20 years has paralleled that of the pre-eminence of the U.S.A.? Just asking, is all.

If we're all in this for a quick buck, then screw it all, and let's just party!

Your 'reality' is fantasy--and as for your 'leasing' suggestion--that only helps an individual consumer for a few years (if you can call being trapped in a Cobalt for 3 years 'help').

What happens to GM when the falsely inflated residuals set for that Cobalt are thousands too high upon return? Right, GM takes another $2k loss when they auction it off.

Just admit it: Previous indifference to product has hurt GM---and the current product reawakening may not be soon enough or profitable enough to save their asses. Period. This is why Pontiac, a division that sells 350k+ units/yr., is being discussed for euthanasia in this thread--GM simply can't afford to revamp or replace a limited line-up fast enough.

'Biz-It's going to be tough to work at a Chevy dealership when GM hits Chapter 11...so maybe you should know and understand the reality of the siutation, not the 'truth' you'd like to hear.

Toyota isn't evil--the evil is the lazy, disrespectful and negligent way GM has treated customers, employees and their own shareholders -- for me, the betrayal of a loved one is much more upsetting...the world is a big place, brother--nothing impacts only North America anymore---and the jobs are coming from Toyota, Honda, et al...not GM anymore--they're paying people to leave!

Edited May 11, 2008 by enzl

[hyperv6]

Hence again my statement that anything past G8 and Solstice is 100% conjecture at this point. "What's the G6 replacement gonna be like? Will it be RWD or FWD? Will the next G5 be another rebaged Cobalt?" Etc, etc..

You may have one BPG distribution channel.....but you are going to still have to build and enhance three separate images/marketing messages/brand perceptions.......one for performance, one for luxury, and one for trucks/SUVs.

You may have less models per brand, but you still have three brands. Pontiac is going to need ALL the help they can get with their (reduced) product line. One-third the marketing/development money won't cut it......GM can't do that.

Hence again you need to give thenm a chance on the G6 and if they even replace the G5. This is a work in progress and the are not or represent what Lutz wants. We need to see what he wants and gets before we get to excited.

With the BPG group it will be much easier and cheaper to Market and build the image on 12-15 total models verse the up to 25 pluse models there used to be.

Defining Pontiac with 4 true performance models will prove more convincing than trying to market Atec's, Montanna's, Torrent's, T1000's, G5's or ony other non performance vehicle as a performance vehicle.

To sell any of these and some of the other non performance cars is enough to make a marketing rep jump from the GM tower. Shadowing Chevy will not savew Pontiac but being special and different will.

I am willing to see if Lutz gets what he wants before I pass judgment Pontiac will fail.

As for Buic the more they share with China it lowers cost here if they can share the models. This deal is sweet like the Opel Saturn deal as it reduces the development cost on a larger scale with global platforms.

I would not be suprised if the G6 is replaced with a car shared with Holden and not sold by other division here in the same package. We will need to wait and see.

As for my other friends comments on living in the past. MayBach did have some ties to Mercedes long ago and the original car was like the German Dusenburg. But from what I can see few really car about the heritage today as few people remember or care in this what have you done for me latley world. Maybach may not be around much longer as they are cutting bach and failing.

The new Maybach is just like Pontiac. The Maybach is a fance Mercedes that cost more. Few find it as a needed car as the Mercedes will do the job for much less with a remebered image.

I was on onther web site where many people wanted to argue on bringing back the TA. I was shock to find most of them were younger and the 1980-90 is all thge performance image they know.

I trew out names like Bunkie, Delorean, Tri Power, Duel Gate Shifter and They had no clue. Several did not knowe what a Tri Power was so this leads me to believe living off past names and images of the 60's-80's is a dead horse at this point

If you have to teach many potential buyers your history you wasting your time. If you have to sped time educating them teach them on your new perfromance image. Todays people 40 and younger are all about what have you done latley and have little use for the past.

This is why they jump from Hionda to Mitu to Subaru for performance cars there is little loyalty and it is about who has the best of coolest car. I want more than a hand full of 50 somthings buying Pontiac to just relive their past.

The key here is the G6 will get their attention but the next G6 needs to come along soon. The present G6 GXP is so not a perfromance car that stands out in a crowd for the right reasons. The Performance Bling cars today are seen as a Joke. That is why so many bought cars like the CRX in the past as they coiuld make them fast even if they were not the coolest thing on the road to look at.

It is ok to remember the past as we should but to relive and depend on it is a path to failure for Pontiac today.

[Oracle of Delphi]

hyperv6, SpellCheck called, they want to know why you're not using their product. Damn, that hurt just reading it. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited May 11, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[The O.C.]

I would not be suprised if the G6 is replaced with a car shared with Holden and not sold by other division here in the same package. We will need to wait and see.

I agree with just about all of your post.

But...."wait and see?"

Griffon said we won't see a Pontiac Alpha car until 2013 at the earliest. (And who knows if he's even remotely correct that Pontiac will get an Alpha....and if it will even reach showrooms before or after 2013.....)

It's but we all know that we needed this "new" Pontiac lineup about 2 years ago....not five more years from now. But of course, this is typical GM modus operendi.

The scary question is......and let's make this a far greater issue than Pontiac.....can any division last another 4-5 years before they have a competitive product lineup? I don't know that Buick's in any better position! Hopefully Invicta will be all it's promised.....let's just DAMN hope it's not like another rebadged Malibu/AURA. And where does GMC's future lie.....with all the trends we are seeing in trucks and SUVs?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

(Edit: Sorry I missed that Enzl already addressed this.)

GAWD you are TOTALLY missing the POINT!

If Camry fleets are only 8%, then that means 92% of the people that buy a Camry.....choose to buy a Camry!!!!!!

If Grand Prix is still up around 75%, that means only a 1/4 of the people in a Grand Prix actually chose to buy one themselves.

I'd say, in comparison, that IS "dire and dreadful."

This is not specifically directed at you... But I think the GP is a moot point. The G6 cannabalized the GP because the two cars compete. It's the same story with the Malibu and Impala, the cars are too similar and Epsilon absolutely slays the much older and cheaper (perception-wise) W-Body. It's just anohter example of GM half assing everything. These cars should not be competing in the market, yet we're apparently doomed to repeat this mess with Eps II (On the Chevrolet side anyway).

I'd like to see how many people cross shop the G8 and G6 in comparison with the cross shopping for G6 and GP. I bet the numbers are drastically different. My fundamental point is that GM is way too concerned with only a fraction of the market and this is the main reason why they are squandering the advantage that having multiple divisions allows. They should cover the ENTIRE market instead of focusing 2 divisions with 4 seperate models at the same damn customer.

I'll use my tried and true ketchup example. Why sell 4 different colors of ketchup when you can sell ketchup, mustard, A1 and barbeque sauce? Over simplified, I know but it's simple business sense.

Edited May 11, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

But then where does that leave Saab?

On the market for the highest bidder.

Pontiac is not a good step-up from Chevrolet. As such, it indeed does not belong in a sales channel with Buick and GMC.

I've always believed that GM should re-align to provide the consumer with 3 paths.

1) Align Chevrolet/Chevy Trucks and Buick for the more traditional volume buyer. This buyer would be found at a Toyota or Lexus dealer; they want an appliance with pizazz. (And yes, Chevrolet could keep it's performance and character, it just needs homerun volume cars too) This channel can focus more on volume and quality.

2) Align Pontiac/GMC and Cadillac This buyer wants driving dynamics and performance. He/She could be found at a Nissan or BMW dealer. This channel would focus on exclusitivity and prestige.

3) Align Saturn and Saab. This channel would be for the style concious and technological buyer. This buyer can be found at a Honda, Acura or Audi dealer. This channel could pull volume, but it would take a lot to build the volume. The potential is there.

The odd ball would be Hummer, but with big investments in style and technology, it could be paired with Saturn and Saab. Especially given its low volume.

Edited May 11, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

.....yet are nicely differentiated from their VW and Audi cousins......unlike Cobalt/G5, Malibu/AURA, etc., etc.

I think the Malibu and Aura are fine.

[enzl]

I'm going to politely disagree with OC about VW and its dopplegangers Seat & Skoda.

The product is not as well differentiated as it should be. That's how VW (with help from Saxony) fell into Porsche's hands. I've always believed that Skoda is what VW should be--and Seat is just loser, with no real USP amongst it's family.